Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

Following the discussion on upsets... if I were to go off of Game 1 of Void vs Fatality... two stock has something to do with it. If I'm to go off of Game 3, rage definitely doesn't help. Especially when some top tiers (Diddy, Sheik, maaaayyybeeee Mario) struggle to kill.

 

[LancerStaff]

If a bunch of top tiers struggle to kill... Wouldn't 2 stock be better for the game? Just sayin'.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Following the discussion on upsets... if I were to go off of Game 1 of Void vs Fatality... two stock has something to do with it. If I'm to go off of Game 3, rage definitely doesn't help. Especially when some top tiers (Diddy, Sheik, maaaayyybeeee Mario) struggle to kill.

How in the hell does Mario struggle to kill?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

How in the hell does Mario struggle to kill?

When people don't constantly jump into up smash they live a LOT longer

 

[SaltyKracka]

When people don't constantly jump into up smash they live a LOT longer

When Mario isn't safe throwing out upsmash at will, it's a lot harder to get hit by random ones.

If a bunch of top tiers struggle to kill... Wouldn't 2 stock be better for the game? Just sayin'.

This seems to follow...not at all. If your top tiers struggle to kill, and you want to bring them closer to the rest of the cast as opposed to raising them up on a pedestal, why would you go for a game where having trouble killing is less of a problem?

 

[Ninety]

Emblem Lord Well, looks like you were right on this one. Contrary to my previous assumptions, Roy might be slightly better than total garbage.

 

[EternalFlare]

Results wise Ryu isn't top 10. Once again he had a lackluster performance at a major yesterday where his best rep by far didn't even make top 24. In comparison Megaman has had MUCH better results lately at the biggest tournaments across 2 different players. It's not even close.

Megaman was around 17th iirc at CEO, Trela didn't even make it out of pools (got past 300th place). At Evo Trela got 9th which is Ryu's only decent placing at a major probably ever and Megaman got 2nd. Now at SSC, Megaman is guaranteed 5th and Ryu got 25th. And that's before getting into Kame's dominance in Japan with the character.

So Megaman deserves to be called top 10 way before Ryu.

Matchup wise as we've previously discussed Ryu isn't top 10 either. He loses to too many top tiers as well as a few mid tiers.

People need to start forming their opinions based off results and data and just objectively looking at a character's tools instead of parroting highly biased opinions of guys like Zero (he probably got bopped by Trela in friendlies when he did't know the MU).

If Ryu was actually top 2 or even at least top 10, top players would be picking him up left and right. Guys like Zero also played Melee at a high level, execution requirements would not deter them at all, they aren't picking up Ryu because he's just not that good.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fatality beating Marss 3-1 and taking Void to game 5 is a great opportunity to talk about Captain Falcon. Sheik, ZSS, Diddy, Mewtwo, Rosalina and Sonic all seem to be pretty managable matchups for the Captain and I would assume he can deal with Cloud pretty reasonably as well. His assumed worst matchup - which is supposedly Pikachu - is pretty irrelevant in the current metagame and the only thing that consistently bodybags Fatality's Falcon is Larry's Fox.

Pichi also won a big, though not particularly stacked, tournament in Japan with Falcon. I'm not convinced by a long shot that Marth is a better character for example. I guess I'm saying that there's a good chance that people undersell him a bit now. His bad matchups aren't that polarizing.

 

[soniczx123]

Fatality beating Marss 3-1 and taking Void to game 5 is a great opportunity to talk about Captain Falcon. Sheik, ZSS, Diddy, Mewtwo, Rosalina and Sonic all seem to be pretty managable matchups for the Captain and I would assume he can deal with Cloud pretty reasonably as well. His assumed worst matchup - which is supposedly Pikachu - is pretty irrelevant in the current metagame and the only thing that consistently bodybags Fatality's Falcon is Larry's Fox.

Pichi also won a big, though not particularly stacked, tournament in Japan with Falcon. I'm not convinced by a long shot that Marth is a better character for example. I guess I'm saying that there's a good chance that people undersell him a bit now. His bad matchups aren't that polarizing.

Being the second fastest runner in the game with strong aerials helps a lot.

 

[EternalFlare]

Homie I posted my match-up chart like 4 pages back. That should tell you what you need to know.

Ryu has slight advantage vs ONE top tier. Then loses to most of them and goes even with like....two?

What do you think? Is that a top ten character?

When he first dropped I was skeptical he could be top tier. People said he could be number 1 and I scoffed at that. All I said about the char really is that if you sleep on him you get buried and you can't fight him like other chars. That's about it.

I think in the grand scheme in maybe another year or two when Ryu players STOP trying to ****ing jump at people and fair when they get scared, Ryu will have even match-ups vs the majority of the cast. He is simply not designed to really invalidate anyone. His tools don't work that way. He can counter poke almost anyone, but that gameplay style means automatically you are relinquishing control of neutral to your opponent and now you must shut down their attempts to open you up. To do this kind of high level reactive gameplay consistently in a game like smash is really ****ing difficult and its why you see most top players simply try to overwhelm their opponent and then swarm them when they are in disadvantage. Something Ryu cannot do btw. Which is why his high damage is so necessary for his design.

The one tech that I was hoping would overcome his limitations in neutral was step dash and he can't really do it.

So yeah....all this talk of "max potential" I find extremely irksome. What matters is how a char interacts with other chars. There are things that most Ryus aren't doing yet. Things I know because of my Street Fighter exp and I am sure it will catch on eventually. But I see no 20SF future for Ryu where he dominates the meta. He is not built that way.

To answer the second part of your question.

Neutral: Average - Probably a 5
Disadvantage: Slightly above average - 7 at best
Advantage: Awesome - 9 or a 10

But again his neutral is hard to rate because its like....90% counter play. Which really means its up to the player's skill.

I agree overall but Ryu's Advantage state is not a 9 or 10.

This is because advantage is more than just when the opponent does something very punishable point blank next to you. In that particular instance, I agree Ryu is definitely among the best characters, probably the best overall. Or if you're calling out rolls, he's probably the best character to punish consistently with. Lastly if the opponent just sits in shield forever, yeah Ryu becomes deadly.

But advantage is also about things like juggling and edge guarding. And Ryu isn't among the best in these categories. He lacks mobility or a huge hitbox up air to make his juggling anything but average. Anyone is much more scared if they are high above Fox, Rosalina, Cloud etc. than Ryu. Similarly his edge guarding isn't anything special, you''d be much more scared when offstage against characters like Villager, Sheik or Rosa.

And then consider, how often do each of these situations occur? At all levels of play, players are going to be put in juggle/edge guard situations, that's just how the game works. But point blank high punish scenarios will rarely occur at high levels of play. At top level play, Fox/Rosalina/Cloud are going to juggle people with up air for days with frame traps and 50/50s. But no one is going to be stupid enough to dash attack or laggy aerial deep into Ryu's shield and die at 80.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Always thought Fox vs Ryu was even, not advantaged in any one way.
Fox getting a grab in this matchup hurts more than in any other matchup in the game, as uthrow becomes RIDICULOUS on any stage except for Lylat.
Fox on DH is really good.
Fox on DL is legitimately broken.
walk to jabs/ftilt and FH AC crossup Dair beats most of Ryu's safe grounded options at low % but if the Fox messes up he's eating huge damage.
fair actually hits tatsu and doesn't hurt Fox while Ryu's recovering and Ryu dies instantly.
but Ryu is ridiculously hard to ledgetrap, as wakeup Shoryu becomes a huge risk if you're even a frame late on an utilt for normal getup.
focus hits you off the ledge if you don't react fast enough.
classic "die at 70"
utilt locks are mad cheesy and difficult to get out of
fox instadies offstage to nair/dair stuff
etc

and since I have no clue how to edit in quotes on this site:
@Gheb: Sheik vs Falcon isn't "doable"
The MU is close to being as bad as Falcon Pika

 

[Emblem Lord]

I agree overall but Ryu's Advantage state is not a 9 or 10.

This is because advantage is more than just when the opponent does something very punishable point blank next to you. In that particular instance, I agree Ryu is definitely among the best characters, probably the best overall. Or if you're calling out rolls, he's probably the best character to punish consistently with. Lastly if the opponent just sits in shield forever, yeah Ryu becomes deadly.

But advantage is also about things like juggling and edge guarding. And Ryu isn't among the best in these categories. He lacks mobility or a huge hitbox up air to make his juggling anything but average. Anyone is much more scared if they are high above Fox, Rosalina, Cloud etc. than Ryu. Similarly his edge guarding isn't anything special, you''d be much more scared when offstage against characters like Villager, Sheik or Rosa.

And then consider, how often do each of these situations occur? At all levels of play, players are going to be put in juggle/edge guard situations, that's just how the game works. But point blank high punish scenarios will rarely occur at high levels of play. At top level play, Fox/Rosalina/Cloud are going to juggle people with up air for days with frame traps and 50/50s. But no one is going to be stupid enough to dash attack or laggy aerial deep into Ryu's shield and die at 80.

As I said...I know **** other Ryus just arent doing. With turn around cancel its not hard to just stay under sumone and reset a juggle situation with his huge utilts. So yeah..he is probably still at least an 8 though Cloud and Rosaline def maintain other parts of advantage better then him. His edgeguarding is linear for sure.

Trela getting bopped just shows what Ryu should not do. You do not jump at people with fair all day. That is week 1 **** that doesnt work anymore.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Fatality beating Marss 3-1 and taking Void to game 5 is a great opportunity to talk about Captain Falcon. Sheik, ZSS, Diddy, Mewtwo, Rosalina and Sonic all seem to be pretty managable matchups for the Captain and I would assume he can deal with Cloud pretty reasonably as well. His assumed worst matchup - which is supposedly Pikachu - is pretty irrelevant in the current metagame and the only thing that consistently bodybags Fatality's Falcon is Larry's Fox.

Pichi also won a big, though not particularly stacked, tournament in Japan with Falcon. I'm not convinced by a long shot that Marth is a better character for example. I guess I'm saying that there's a good chance that people undersell him a bit now. His bad matchups aren't that polarizing.

Of the MUs you've listed only Sheik and Pikachu have ever really been problematic. Add Bayonetta to that list however. Definitely not as bad as Sheik, and thus not as bad as Pikachu, she's still much worse than those that were listed. And while I agree that people have been underselling Falcon lately, and that we are in agreement that a bad Pikachu MU is largely irrelevant, I do think Marth is the better character. Not by all that much however, I think both characters have some more optimization left to do.

A while back, there was a topic about what we wished to see more of out of the players that use our characters. We had just had a large Marth discussion just before that so I didn't feel it very necessary to continue talking about Marth, but I do remember that there wasn't a mention of C. Falcon.

I'd like to see more optimization in movement, utilizing perfect pivots, maybe step dash (I haven't had a chance to test it yet with Falcon to see if it's very useful), and we are seeing some EDD from Falcon players which is nice, but I'd also say that all characters need to incorporate these movements into their play styles to some extent. I'd really like to see some improvements to our punish and combo games however. Footstool combos are obviously very powerful, but I'd also like to see more use of RAR bair out of dthrow or dash attack, especially when near the ledge. With the exceptions of %s where uair > knee is dependent on DI and not a true combo people tend to DI away from Falcon after dthrow/dash attack or uair, so if instead more bair was used as a mixup, which has more knockback and a better angle than nair, they'd be DIing directly into the blast zone. And of course more jab locks when available wouldn't hurt.

 

[Ulevo]

If this is what you think, then you clearly did not see my vid if you are claming "lil" analysis. And I dont think you should be telling me "you should talk less about how I am wrong and more about why I am wrong". Cause nearly everything you said about her was pure judging or lack of knowledge. I'm not the only one here who told you this. All you did was just go on stuff many corrected you for always. And you base everything based on one match as if both parties were on equal fields of match up knowledge. If that post was a waste of time to read, then yours was not worth a skim. You did not even ask, you just throw random/false info on peach. So I don't think you are in a position to tell me that.

If you wanna know something you can easily ask, and I'll answer no problem. But i'm not gonna speak on a field I know lil about like you have been doing.

Let me also point out that I am not mad or looking for a fight, since people like to assume that from me. I am just fine and talking. Nothing more or less.

Didn't see the video initially. That being said, none of the principles you talk about would help in the Meta Knight match up since he has the speed, burst range, disjoints and grab game to punish a Peach player for patiently waiting. Turnips will not help either because there is a zone where they are unsafe to pull, and Meta Knight just needs to look in that range.

I agree with a lot of what your video said, but I feel as though it just further proved what I was talking about regarding the character and the match up.

 

[Ffamran]

As I said...I know **** other Ryus just arent doing. With turn around cancel its not hard to just stay under sumone and reset a juggle situation with his huge utilts. So yeah..he is probably still at least an 8 though Cloud and Rosaline def maintain other parts of advantage better then him. His edgeguarding is linear for sure.

Trela getting bopped just shows what Ryu should not do. You do not jump at people with fair all day. That is week 1 **** that doesnt work anymore.

Quick question: is there any well-known Ryu player people should be watching who has a good neutral or maybe this would be better: is comfortable with Ryu, moves well with Ryu, understands Ryu very well, and plays the (neutral) game intelligently and effectively? I ask since off the top of my head, from an admittedly fuzzy memory, and outside of just not knowing, almost every Ryu I have seen has **** control over him. Then again, my standards of good control might be high and biased...

People praise and hype(ed) up 9B, Trela, Venom, whoever, but to me, they're kind of doing the same thing; things that are not only risky, but predictable. I remember the days when people were foaming at the mouth when they saw 9B's Ryu using Nair to combo stuff... when he was using it to approach too. Anyone could tell you that Ryu's Nair has little range and approaching with that against any character should get him punished. I remember when people were talking about how Trela walks with Ryu. Okay? He's walking and recently, hard data was posted showing that Ryu has the highest walk acceleration in the game at 1 to almost everyone's 0.1. Walking itself isn't a high-level skill. Basic, good movement is, to me, a low-level skill yet here we are in the fourth iteration of Smash and people still fail at basic, good movement. I would even consider Melee's wavedashing as a low-level skill. Maybe back in the day it was high-level -- I'd still say it would have been mid-level -- when nobody knew, could share it, or the internet was just crap, but now? Low-level. 64, Brawl, and Smash 4 doesn't have wavedashing. So? The basic movement options available in every game is still there and people are raving about a high-level player walking? I'm getting really off-tangent at this point.

Trela walking with Ryu can imply he's being methodical with Ryu. Cool, but then I see people saying he's just running around approaching with Ryu's Fair... Welp, methodical just went down the drain. I haven't been watching any major since I've been focusing on compiling data for Brawl and Smash 4, so my words should be taken with a grain of salt, especially in this case since I haven't seen any of Trela's gameplay, but seen people say what he was doing wrong. Still, it seems like Trela walking with Ryu was just a superficial thing and the reality was Trela's Ryu wasn't anything special or even good.

 

[EternalFlare]

As I said...I know **** other Ryus just arent doing. With turn around cancel its not hard to just stay under sumone and reset a juggle situation with his huge utilts. So yeah..he is probably still at least an 8 though Cloud and Rosaline def maintain other parts of advantage better then him. His edgeguarding is linear for sure.

Trela getting bopped just shows what Ryu should not do. You do not jump at people with fair all day. That is week 1 **** that doesnt work anymore.

Turn around cancel? Care to elaborate? Are you referring to the pivot slide into tilts tech we discussed a few weeks ago? I'm guessing this is something else as that wouldn't help Ryu catch opponents try to land away from him.

And yeah, that's why I'm starting to think Ryu might even get worse over time not better. Because as I've mentioned several times before like half of his wins come off gimmicks anyway. You take those away and in a high mobility game like Smash and he just doesn't get much opportunity to set up early kills.

People talk about his results at regionals at least being good, then when you actually watch the sets, it's basically people falling for stuff like fully charged focus attacks while shielding (when they could easily have rolled away on reaction).

Even when I personally win as Ryu, I often feel like I got away with murder and if we were to play a long set, I'd get figured out (that's often what happens when my opponents don't leave after 2-3 games).

 

[Emblem Lord]

When Trela is comfortable he is methodical. When he is scared or down a stock, that is when he goes ape****.

And most smashers lack precise movement control because again, this game has so many fast paced options you can ignore things like walking. You can make up for it with burst movement and spamming high priority neutral options.

Trela's neutral is solid tho there is always room for improvement. Patience is something I would like for many top level players to develop. So far it seems like only Dabuz has it.

Turn Around Cancel is literally what it sounds like. From a full run when your character turns there is a point where they are considered at neutral and you can do any action.

What you are referring to is U-turn. This is an extension of TAC. I hate the term U-turn btw.

 

[EternalFlare]

When Trela is comfortable he is methodical. When he is scared or down a stock, that is when he goes ape****.

And most smashers lack precise movement control because again, this game has so many fast paced options you can ignore things like walking. You can make up for it with burst movement and spamming high priority neutral options.

Trela's neutral is solid tho there is always room for improvement. Patience is something I would like for many top level players to develop. So far it seems like only Dabuz has it.

Turn Around Cancel is literally what it sounds like. From a full run when your character turns there is a point where they are considered at neutral and you can do any action.

What you are referring to is U-turn. This is an extension of TAC. I hate the term U-turn btw.

To me Ryu playing patient means a ton of walking, shield dashing, spaced bairs and not much else.

But if that's how Ryu has to play at higher levels, there are several characters who are much better at this playstyle. Either because they have better mobility, better projectiles, better hitboxes, more reward off grabs/bairs or a combination of these.

 

[Emblem Lord]

To me Ryu playing patient means a ton of walking, shield dashing, spaced bairs and not much else.

But if that's how Ryu has to play at higher levels, there are several characters who are much better at this playstyle. Either because they have better mobility, better projectiles, better hitboxes, more reward off grabs/bairs or a combination of these.

So basically...tiers

 

[jet56]

Quick question: is there any well-known Ryu player people should be watching who has a good neutral or maybe this would be better: is comfortable with Ryu, moves well with Ryu, understands Ryu very well, and plays the (neutral) game intelligently and effectively? I ask since off the top of my head, from an admittedly fuzzy memory, and outside of just not knowing, almost every Ryu I have seen has **** control over him. Then again, my standards of good control might be high and biased...

People praise and hype(ed) up 9B, Trela, Venom, whoever, but to me, they're kind of doing the same thing; things that are not only risky, but predictable. I remember the days when people were foaming at the mouth when they saw 9B's Ryu using Nair to combo stuff... when he was using it to approach too. Anyone could tell you that Ryu's Nair has little range and approaching with that against any character should get him punished. I remember when people were talking about how Trela walks with Ryu. Okay? He's walking and recently, hard data was posted showing that Ryu has the highest walk acceleration in the game at 1 to almost everyone's 0.1. Walking itself isn't a high-level skill. Basic, good movement is, to me, a low-level skill yet here we are in the fourth iteration of Smash and people still fail at basic, good movement. I would even consider Melee's wavedashing as a low-level skill. Maybe back in the day it was high-level -- I'd still say it would have been mid-level -- when nobody knew, could share it, or the internet was just crap, but now? Low-level. 64, Brawl, and Smash 4 doesn't have wavedashing. So? The basic movement options available in every game is still there and people are raving about a high-level player walking? I'm getting really off-tangent at this point.

Trela walking with Ryu can imply he's being methodical with Ryu. Cool, but then I see people saying he's just running around approaching with Ryu's Fair... Welp, methodical just went down the drain. I haven't been watching any major since I've been focusing on compiling data for Brawl and Smash 4, so my words should be taken with a grain of salt, especially in this case since I haven't seen any of Trela's gameplay, but seen people say what he was doing wrong. Still, it seems like Trela walking with Ryu was just a superficial thing and the reality was Trela's Ryu wasn't anything special or even good.

Maybe Apachai? he really doesn't go to major's that often, but is a very solid player with the character and is ranked #3 in AZ, which is one of the stronger regions in the country. If i remember correctly he got 3rd at a falcon punch friday recently.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Didn't see the video initially. That being said, none of the principles you talk about would help in the Meta Knight match up since he has the speed, burst range, disjoints and grab game to punish a Peach player for patiently waiting. Turnips will not help either because there is a zone where they are unsafe to pull, and Meta Knight just needs to look in that range.

I agree with a lot of what your video said, but I feel as though it just further proved what I was talking about regarding the character and the match up.

"Didn't see the video initially"


Something is not right here. I made my post, you said it was a waste of time and proved nothing will lil analysis. The vid clearly was nothing lil on Peach. The fact that you did not see it at first showed me you was not willing to learn and see something from my end. You refused to see a point I am trying to explain and correct you about since you was like "you should tell me first why im instead of saying things that are a waste of time." Funny thing is, I was and you ignored it due to a judgemental mentality of character and match up. Not look to hot right now c

And it's really not proving anything on your end. You keep saying meta has this and that and Peach can't do anything about it. At this point from what you been saying, Im just gonna go with my gut feeling and say you have no idea what so ever how Peach is suppose to play MK to make it hard for him. Or else you would have. That's how you talk about a match up and KNOW a match up. You don't know Peach vs MK. What you and the others in this boat know is do MK stuff vs confused Peach match up.

I'm not gonna assume right way so unless you can tell me right now how Peach is suppose to be playing this match up and the proper way to react to what MK does, you just prove what I been saying this whole time with typical assumptions of character/match up. Then I will just straight up tell you how peach is suppose to deal with his options. I have not said it yet cause you have yet to ask that but talk as if you know this match and Peach can't do a darn thing. And I also did not wanna have it used for your sake to cover up the so called stuff you clam is true about Peach in general.

 

[Ulevo]

"Didn't see the video initially"


Something is not right here. I made my post, you said it was a waste of time and proved nothing will lil analysis. The vid clearly was nothing lil on Peach. The fact that you did not see it at first showed me you was not willing to learn and see something from my end. You refused to see a point I am trying to explain and correct you about since you was like "you should tell me first why im instead of saying things that are a waste of time." Funny thing is, I was and you ignored it due to a judgemental mentality of character and match up. Not look to hot right now c

And it's really not proving anything on your end. You keep saying meta has this and that and Peach can't do anything about it. At this point from what you been saying, Im just gonna go with my gut feeling and say you have no idea what so ever how Peach is suppose to play MK to make it hard for him. Or else you would have. That's how you talk about a match up and KNOW a match up. You don't know Peach vs MK. What you and the others in this boat know is do MK stuff vs confused Peach match up.

I'm not gonna assume right way so unless you can tell me right now how Peach is suppose to be playing this match up and the proper way to react to what MK does, you just prove what I been saying this whole time with typical assumptions of character/match up. Then I will just straight up tell you how peach is suppose to deal with his options. I have not said it yet cause you have yet to ask that but talk as if you know this match and Peach can't do a darn thing. And I also did not wanna have it used for your sake to cover up the so called stuff you clam is true about Peach in general.

Or I just didn't see the video.

I told you how floaties are supposed to play this match up. Go a few pages back.

 

[FeelMeUp]

How long until the "Haha see guys ZSS is still top 5" posts show up?
OT: the two sheiks getting knocked out in the exact same way is really funny.

 

[Yonder]

Found a user posting this on Gamefaqs, thought it was worth posting:

ZeRo, ANTi, MVD and ScAtt all pulled out a pocket cloud. All lost

Tweek mains cloud. Got beat Marss, came in a tie for 13th, only taking a single game off him

M2K mains cloud, gets beaten in pools. DQs rather than going through losers

All cloud really has left is Komokiri to redeem himself at this point. This was an awful tourney for Cloud, who has repeatedly been turning worse and worse performances these last few majors

EVO: Cloud got used once, by Kamemushi, who lost. No other cloud usage in the top 16

CEO: Anti was the only person to use Cloud in the Top 16, and he won 3 games with him in GFs

So in the last 3 majors, Cloud has only managed to win a single set in top 16 (by ANTi). Tweek is the only other person to win a single game with him

-bvillebro

In short, Cloud is doing very poorly in higher play. By no means a bad character, still incredible and the best swordsman bar none, but fighting for that top 5 is much more difficult with here.

You can't just stuff a Cloud in your pocket, hardly train them, then call it a day. Heck, I think Zero should have used Shulk instead as a counterpick. Surprise factor is a more deadly pocket then Cloud at this point.

 

[Juno97]

Sooooo we just now realizing that M2K was right about Cloud being overrated?

I feel Cloud is best against match ups that are more "obscure" or "uncommon" if you will. Like Yoshi, Ryu, and Mewtwo. You don't see too many of those going around. On the other hand, Cloud is pretty even with the other sword characters and can gimp him faster than he can gimp them.

Then his top tier match ups are either even or slightly winning. In theory. Yet, here we see at the top levels of play where they are common and he peters out.

 

[ARISTOS]

How long until the "Haha see guys ZSS is still top 5" posts show up?
OT: the two sheiks getting knocked out in the exact same way is really funny.

Why do people feel the need to say this every time something unexpected happens?

Can we just not enjoy the game/analyze what worked and what didn't?

Interested to hear reasonings as to why Cloud falls off towards the top level.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Why do people feel the need to say this every time something unexpected happens?

Can we just not enjoy the game/analyze what worked and what didn't?

Interested to hear reasonings as to why Cloud falls off towards the top level.

People literally never say this when something unexpected happens lol.
Hell, I wouldn't even say Nairo winning once he made it into Winners with NO Diddy players was unexpected.

Cloud's ground game sucks ass and anti-Limit/edgeguarding play can evolve so much more than his Limit/recovery mixups.
Not too difficult.
Also, an underlooked horrible quality of his is the terrible shield pressure.
Sure, his aerials are safe, but the fact that aerial>grab isn't really an option(because going for another aerial is almost strictly better in most situations) severely hinders how unpredictable he can be.

 

[C0rvus]

Tweek is a good player no doubt, but it's not like he was in line to win majors at any point in his career. Cloud is good, but losing to Sheik at top level is pretty crummy no matter how you slice it. Having an actual disadvantaged state hurts, too. That's all I can really say, I guess. He's not getting top 8 at majors by himself; let alone win it all.

Yet another problem my boy Leo could solve, but alas.

 

[|RK|]

Found a user posting this on Gamefaqs, thought it was worth posting:

-bvillebro

In short, Cloud is doing very poorly in higher play. By no means a bad character, still incredible and the best swordsman bar none, but fighting for that top 5 is much more difficult with here.

You can't just stuff a Cloud in your pocket, hardly train them, then call it a day. Heck, I think Zero should have used Shulk instead as a counterpick. Surprise factor is a more deadly pocket then Cloud at this point.

Shulk would have been interesting. But ZeRo claims that his Cloud almost always wins when he's practicing - it's just at the top when it doesn't work out. And I don't think ZeRo's Cloud is just a pocket - it's more of a secondary.

Though more interesting, IMO, is Olimar. I find it interesting how well Dabuz's Olimar does. He constantly says that Olimar is a bottom tier character, so is this a case of him underrating his character by a lot? Or is the surprise factor just that good? Following that - if Olimar really is that bad - and Pacman - then we have two low/bottom tier characters at top level play that could actually see top 8 at a major. If that's true, then a lot of the results-based tier lists suffer from a Catch 22: the top-level players make top-level placements, regardless of character choice.

We've seen this in Melee too, honestly - Jiggs and Peach wouldn't be nearly as high as they are in peoples' minds without Hbox and Armada, respectively. This means any results-based tier list can't possibly be unbiased - it'll always be based on who the best players selected. Now, usually this is where the "theory" argument comes in. But as explained earlier - Olimar and Pacman have awful theory. But ultimately, because of their placings, they'll be elevated beyond what they could have achieved without a top players backing.

I find that extremely interesting. Any thoughts?

 

[Shaya]

Cloud pockets and players aren't really playing him in a way that accentuates his most dominant traits.
US Meta with him is pretty behind / sloppy, especially compared to Japan (one could argue they've developed counterplay too him quite well to the point his bubble burst there, but NA still hasn't gotten to that point).

Just like how Pug / Mr E / False have come up on the rise, and for the most part looking like based Brawl MikeNeko (False is kinda his own though, similar to Mr.R's Brawl Marth), Cloud players need to learn how to play a swordsman. Nairo's natural skills with Cloud thanks to Brawl probably place his on a more competitive edge than any of the other active ones right now, and yet he only uses him in doubles.

 

[Nu~]

Shulk would have been interesting. But ZeRo claims that his Cloud almost always wins when he's practicing - it's just at the top when it doesn't work out. And I don't think ZeRo's Cloud is just a pocket - it's more of a secondary.

Though more interesting, IMO, is Olimar. I find it interesting how well Dabuz's Olimar does. He constantly says that Olimar is a bottom tier character, so is this a case of him underrating his character by a lot? Or is the surprise factor just that good? Following that - if Olimar really is that bad - and Pacman - then we have two low/bottom tier characters at top level play that could actually see top 8 at a major. If that's true, then a lot of the results-based tier lists suffer from a Catch 22: the top-level players make top-level placements, regardless of character choice.

We've seen this in Melee too, honestly - Jiggs and Peach wouldn't be nearly as high as they are in peoples' minds without Hbox and Armada, respectively. This means any results-based tier list can't possibly be unbiased - it'll always be based on who the best players selected. Now, usually this is where the "theory" argument comes in. But as explained earlier - Olimar and Pacman have awful theory. But ultimately, because of their placings, they'll be elevated beyond what they could have achieved without a top players backing.

I find that extremely interesting. Any thoughts?

And here lies the flaws of a results based analysis overall: it isn't actual analysis. It's a shortcut for in-depth explanation and understanding.

Results don't mean anything on their own. We have to analyze the matches (the decisions the players made, the character/tool interactions, and the character's strengths/weaknesses overall) and build more accurate theories. We go through this cycle too often in which we claim a character has good/bad theory without really looking deep enough, and then "proving" the theory correct/incorrect when results come in (without actually understanding why those results occurred in the first place). Results help validate theories, yes...but only if that result is paired up with match analysis.
For example, we can't say mega man goes even with sheik because Kame beat Void and Mr.R. Both of them SD'd and both destroyed kame in nuetral consistently when they didn't play scared/annoyed of getting pelted.



There are multiple reasons why Dabuz is doing so well with his secondary Olimar and its better to investigate all the possibilities before claiming that it's ALL matchup inexperience or that it's ALL Dabuz's skill. We come to conclusions too fast...and for what?

Same with mega man​

No, he isn't top 10 all of a sudden because Kamemushi and ScAtt are doing well currently. Let's do a further analysis. I'm not seeing how a character who's nuetral is so dependent on the opponent's ability to get past one move (which isn't all that great when you look at all the ways it can be beaten) is all that powerful. Sure he can keep you out pretty well...but how long until people realize that there are quite a few ways to get around his rather linear neutral game consistently?
Hell, a good enough SHAD -> fast aerial, long lasting attack, good airspeed, fast run speed to close the distance, or simply getting the lead and forcing mega man to approach (something he isn't built for at all...mega man is actually quite the polar character when you think about it) are just a few ways to get past pellets. Unfortunately, most people default to sheild because they panic or get annoyed. I won't get started on how little reward he gets compared to other chars in smash 4...his nuetral leads to more neutral 90% of the time.



But back to the main topic, results are not as objective as they seem and certainly are not a way to prove how viable a character is. They are a hint, not an answer.

I apologize if my thoughts are a tad bit...unorganized ^^;

 

[my_T]

somebody want to enlighten me on why olimars theory is "bad"? Shuton does quite well with him as does Dabuz when he pulls him out.

 

[Yonder]

somebody want to enlighten me on why olimars theory is "bad"? Shuton does quite well with him as does Dabuz when he pulls him out.

I want to say that Dabuz is trying to pull a different kind of mindgame and say he is "bad" so that less people take time to learn the matchup. He evens calls Rosa without Luma the "worst character in the game". I feel that is debatable, but nonetheless Dabuz downplays his characters. Like a reverse Esam. Maybe he is thinking beyond the scope of the physical game, and into the outer context. It doesnt take too much effort to say Olimar sucks every once in a while...but it leaves the opponent all the more unprepared. Factor in that Olimar is the most forgotten character in the game and you have a winning combo.

I think it's pretty smart. Olimar is certainly a shell of his Brawl self, but by no means bad and can still hold his own.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Olimar's camping potential can go pretty much uncontested by most of the legitimately bad characters in the game.
that alone guarantees that he's not in the realm of the bottom tiers.
also kinda silly that people consider Roy a low/mid tier but will be cool with Dabuz saying Olimar's garbage.
I do think Dabuz has a fantastic tendency to heavily underrate his characters though.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Or I just didn't see the video.

I told you how floaties are supposed to play this match up. Go a few pages back.

Not sure how you did not see it when I put it clear as day in my post. I'm just gonna break this down to you and tell you why this match up is not as terrible as you and the others think. I'm not gonna go on too much about his strengths cause that was already dished out to death here.

First I am gonna go on about how Peach is suppose to play the neutral vs MK. The neutral game, or just neutral, is a phase during gameplay when no player has a situational advantage over the other. In this phase, either player's objective is to "win the neutral game", i.e. land a hit with possible follow-ups, or punish the enemy for a failed attempt to do so. So for me, to avoid stuff from MK, I need to keep a distance such as this:

​

At this range, MK is no threat to me. Him coming at me with air attacks won't hit. The fastest thing he can come at me with is his dash attack. If he was to dash attack me from this range, I will not get hit. You can check out the gif right here showing that in the link below.:

https://zippy.gfycat.com/EcstaticRespectfulAmethystsunbird.webm

His dash attack is disjointed but there is a lil problem with this. The hitbox is only active for 4 frames. After that he is still in the dash attack animation but he is just a plan moving target. That's why the dash attack dud not hit Peach when MK went in with it. This is one of MK (if not the best) starters for his combos. With good micro spacing and movement, MK can not really hit Peach if she maintains this range. If he does, its a free punish. After the hit box is gone, he can't do anything for 21 frames. Depending on this distance, you can punish him or just back off. Cause you would leave yourself open and then eat damage for it.

Now going back to the first picture on distance. If Peach has a turnip in hand, its even better since she can punish something wiffed from a distance. Meta knigts movement options on the ground are not that great to bait things from the enemy. Characters like falcon and lil mac do it better.I fear them on the ground way more them MK, and he has death combos. All he really has is speed. That's about it. And his air speed is average. Just being three spots over Peach. What Peach lacks in speed she makes up for in ground movement. The vid below explains it:

If Mk is in the air using multiple jumps, Peach should not be trying to chase him air attacks. A turnip is best. If she does not have one, nor can safely get one, then what she should be doing is being in a zone MK would land and the range he is no threat.

If he is about this height dishing dairs, a turnip to the side will take care of that. And if he short fairs/bairs, he suffers lag with a turnip can punish. If no turnip, its best not to challenge. But if one sees a pattern, they can FULL hop dair and hit MK. Other wise, best to respect and wait till he lands. Peachs moves on will get get her punish alot. They are either slow or short range.

​

At this height, unless Peach has a turnip in hand, she has to respect him. Multiple jumps in neutral are usually use to fake out a landing or bait a pursuit. Then come down with a punish. MK does not get good air speed when jumping in the other direction like jiggs. So Peach can go under MK and hit him from under. Or create a wall if turnips if he wants to burn more jumps. Then juggle/ Z grab them to w/e the player wants. You have a few hit boxes covering the air and you can cover the ground. At worst he swings but don't get a hit. Then the neutral game starts again.

Meta lacks versitale approaches. He can't just go in brute force and get a hit. He gets rewarded when the opponent leaves themselves open. He can't force alot of things in a safe matter. Outside of cross up dash attacks on shield, most of his moves are not safe. When I see Peach get put down by meta it's usually cause they did something within his range that was not safe. So meta's ground speed can just take advantage of wiffed moves. Peach players usually don't have alot of patients and usually wanna be in the air alot to typical Peach stuff. I explained this in my metagame vid about her. But if Peach gives lil to no openings, Meta can not just do what he wants for free. He will get put down for it.

I even spoke to Sam about this and he said he was losing his patients and boring, and went in with common Peach stuff. Thats a player problem, not a character problem. You know the character you play and what they are about. If you refuse to do what you wanna do to get the win, you can say match up is such and such when you refuse to do what you have to. Which is be hella patient. This is the same reason Dabuz is the only Rosalina that hits top 8 at big events. The others don't really wanna wait alot and play optimal. That's why they don't join Dabuz in top 8. If you dont wanna do what you have to do, don't play the character, simple as that.

 

[my_T]

And here lies the flaws of a results based analysis overall: it isn't actual analysis. It's a shortcut for in-depth explanation and understanding.

Results don't mean anything on their own. We have to analyze the matches (the decisions the players made, the character/tool interactions, and the character's strengths/weaknesses overall) and build more accurate theories. We go through this cycle too often in which we claim a character has good/bad theory without really looking deep enough, and then "proving" the theory correct/incorrect when results come in (without actually understanding why those results occurred in the first place). Results help validate theories, yes...but only if that result is paired up with match analysis.
For example, we can't say mega man goes even with sheik because Kame beat Void and Mr.R. Both of them SD'd and both destroyed kame in nuetral consistently when they didn't play scared/annoyed of getting pelted.



There are multiple reasons why Dabuz is doing so well with his secondary Olimar and its better to investigate all the possibilities before claiming that it's ALL matchup inexperience or that it's ALL Dabuz's skill. We come to conclusions too fast...and for what?

Same with mega man​

No, he isn't top 10 all of a sudden because Kamemushi and ScAtt are doing well currently. Let's do a further analysis. I'm not seeing how a character who's nuetral is so dependent on the opponent's ability to get past one move (which isn't all that great when you look at all the ways it can be beaten) is all that powerful. Sure he can keep you out pretty well...but how long until people realize that there are quite a few ways to get around his rather linear neutral game consistently?
Hell, a good enough SHAD -> fast aerial, long lasting attack, good airspeed, fast run speed to close the distance, or simply getting the lead and forcing mega man to approach (something he isn't built for at all...mega man is actually quite the polar character when you think about it) are just a few ways to get past pellets. Unfortunately, most people default to sheild because they panic or get annoyed. I won't get started on how little reward he gets compared to other chars in smash 4...his nuetral leads to more neutral 90% of the time.



But back to the main topic, results are not as objective as they seem and certainly are not a way to prove how viable a character is. They are a hint, not an answer.

I apologize if my thoughts are a tad bit...unorganized ^^;

I agree with everything you said except for the part about megaman. His neutral is very strong with lemons being a huge factor. You say a long last hitbox can deal with it but there are quite a few factors you have to take into consideration. The various ways he can shoot the lemons: grounded, short/full hopped, retreating, advancing, the rate at which he's going to shoot them, and how many he's going to shoot while being able to mix-up and transition from one to another quickly and easily. Even if you do have a long lasting hitbox to power through lemons you still have to worry about megamans dash->shield and dash->grab. Megamans dash->shield->grab is pretty good for punishing an offensive advance from the opponent. You also have to worry about his dash grab which is also very potent when used in conjunction with lemons because it's a normal grab and not a tether. Him having a normal grab gives him a good answer to shields while also being threatening since he has low percent grab combos, gives him time to pull out metal blade, and solid edge guarding tools if the opponent is thrown offstage. Then there's the overall safety of lemons, they're pretty low commitment, especially at mid range. Then there's metal blade stuff that you have to deal with. Keeping metal blade out of his hands is also very important as it gives him more options in neutral while also giving him good or great reward off of a successful hit/setup with metal blade. Before anyone says something about item counter play it works both ways so I don't really see that as a legit solution. Then you have his aerials which are really good for punishing and zoning in the air. They can condition you not to jump, thus giving megaman more opportunities to do lemon stuff.

Basically his neutral is really good and i think you're going to need more than a long lasting hitbox (Ness says hi) to deal with megamans neutral. Megaman being top ten is debatable but I think he's top 15 minimum.

 

[Ffamran]

Having wanted rapid jab frame data for so long to figure out the problem for Falco's rapid jab, I got more than that with @A_Kae's help. A_Kae was also responsible for the recent posting of the DLC characters' ground movement data letting us see things like Cloud and Corrin's good 1.8 dash speed -- not run speed -- and Ryu's 1 walk acceleration, a 10x gap between the majority of Smash 4's roster. A_Kae also helped me with their vertical air frictions, confirming that Kirby's dash speed did not increase to 1.57 when that one patch upped his run speed to 1.57 -- Kirby's dash and run speed used to be the same and I figured if they're going to increase one, then they would do the same to keep the same feel for Kirby --, and that Dr. Mario's 0.82 multiplier only affected the "big" movement values like air speed, dash speed, run speed, and walk speed. Stuff like air deceleration, walk acceleration, etc. weren't affected. If they were, it would suck for Doc since he'd probably end up having below-average everything compared to everyone else.

Little story over, A_Kae found frame for rapid jabs (and ROB's Uair since its loop hits use a subroutine) and made a .txt of its raw data which is readable even if you can't read hex. Just use a convertor like this: http://www.binaryhexconverter.com/hex-to-decimal-converter. For convenience sake, I converted all of it except for hit frames and stuff -- it's late at night right now. So, all of you who are reading this, please go and thank A_Kae. I just did the easy work of converting numbers and asking someone to find the data. All of the hard work went was done by A_Kae.

Spoiler: Smash 4 Rapid Jab Frame Data

Character|Damage|Angle|BKB|SKB|KBG|Hit Lag|SDI
|0.3%|8° / 172°|0|7|100|x1.0|x0.6
|2%|74° / 92°|20|0|20|x1.0|x0.8
|1%|85° / 75° / 90°|15 / 15 / 8|0|50 / 50 / 30|x0.3|x0.7
|0.9%|361° / 94°|8|0|40|x1.0|x1.0
/|0.8%|25° / 120°|0|18 / 4|100|x0.8|x1.0
|0.5%|60°|0|4|100|x1.0|x0.7
|0.8%|66° / 85° / 270°|0|22 / 9 / 6|100|x1.0|x0.4
|0.4%|30° / 50° / 70°|0|3|100|x1.0|x1.2
|0.7%|60° / 85° / 78°|18 / 14 / 20|0|20|x1.0|x0.4
|1%|361°|8|0|40|x1.0|x1.1
|1%|20° / 20° / 68°|0|60 / 20 / 2|100|x1.0|x1.0
|1%|55° / 68° / 80°|0|6 / 4 / 2|100|x1.0|x1.0
|0.7%|86° / 361° / 361°|0|0|50|x1.0|x0.8
Giga |2%|86° / 361° / 361°|0|0|50|x1.0|x0.8
|1.2%|60° / 84°|8|0|30|x1.0|x0.6
|1%|70° / 89°|14|0|30|x1.0|x1.0
|1%|75°|0|10|100|x1.0|x1.0
|1%|74° / 40°|0|5 / 10|100|x0.5|x1.0
|0.8%|60° / 110°|10|0|20|x1.2|x1.0
|1%|80°|14|0|30|x1.0|x0.8
|1.7%|74°|0|20|100|x1.0|x0.8
& Luma|1.2%|50°|15|0|100|x1.0|x1.0
|0.8%|50° / 60° / 70°|14|0|20|x1.0|x1.0

Spoiler: Discussion on rapid jab and some notes of the frame data

So, why bother to find this data that nobody has cared for in previous games? In Smash 4, rapid jabs are much more different because of rapid jab finishers. That adds in a much harder commitment since recovery won't be like 13 and below frames. Now, recovery from using a rapid jab is around 30 frames, which is pretty average. Rapid jab finishers let characters who only have rapid jabs to have something to knock people back since in previous games... what did a rapid jab really do? Some knockback and damage? Not really fitting Smash's knockback-based gameplay. Rapid jab finishers were probably added to prevent infinites or lessen them. That is a fine idea, but unfortunately, it might have been taken too far as some rapid jabs in Smash 4 are problematic by having issues with connection and dropping people out. The ones that don't have this problem, obviously have an edge and are among one of the best jab combos in the game such as Fox, Little Mac, Palutena, and Robin's for their high damage, reliability, etc. Some of them might not win in areas such as speed and versatility, but they win in reliability which isn't an amazing feat considering almost all jabs are reliable. With that statement, the jabs that aren't reliable are in a minority of dysfunction; dysfunctional in an area that is almost a given for other jabs. For some, this doesn't matter such as Captain Falcon and Greninja who have jab 3's, but for others who don't have a choice... It's unfortunate.

Anyway, from the data, there are some that stand out. For one, Bowser Jr. is tied with Giga Mac, yes, the Final Smash transformation of Little Mac, for the highest damage per hit of a rapid jab. Under Jr. would be Rosalina (1.7%) and Luma (1.2%). The lowest is Bayonetta (0.3%), Falco (0.4%), and Diddy (0.5%). For those of you who felt like they were getting sucked into a rapid jab and didn't know why, well, data shows that there are actually rapid jabs that pull people in and those are Bayonetta, Palutena, the Pits' rapid jabs who have angles that send you behind them which with what rapid jabs are, would push you in for more and more hits. This one's not really important, but only Palutena has hit lag above the average x1.0 while Capt. and the Pits have hit lag below. Everyone else rocks normal hit lag.

The big thing is probably SDI. In this area, most characters are around x1.0, but there are some that stand out. The highest belongs to Falco (x1.2) and followed by Greninja (x1.1). The lowest would be Duck Hunt and Fox (x0.4) with Bayonetta second (x0.6). This would probably explain why theirs are either easy to escape or difficult to escape. Other stuff would be hit rate, hitboxes, hit angles, etc., but for now, just SDI. Arguably, Fox's rapid jab is one of the best and low SDI definitely helps. Same with Duck Hunt who has a good rapid jab, but kind of weird -- I don't play Duck Hunt, so forgive me for not knowing what to do with them -- jab 3 and while not as fast as theirs, Bayonetta's rapid jab or jab in general, is among the highest damaging in the game. Her jab 1 (1.5%), jab 2 (1.5%), jab 3 (2%), and rapid jab finisher (1% + 6%) -- apparently, her rapid jab finisher has 2 parts similar to Fox's rapid jab having a starting hit -- guarantee 12.7% plus how many hits of rapid jab she can get in. Most jabs and jab combos do around 9%. Definitely makes up for its 9 frame startup. Imagine Bayonetta with a frame 4 or 5 jab.

On the flip side, Falco and Greninja's rapid jab are easy / easier to escape. Skipping Falco for a bit, for Greninja, like I said, it doesn't really matter since Greninja has jab 3, another option, but if Greninja really wants to use rapid jab, Greninja is still "protected" assuming the rapid jab hits are disjoints -- they're water blades. Greninja is also doing decent damage with each hit as well. For Falco, it just sucks. There isn't really another option for Falco other than to not use jab. Jab as a mixup itself is dangerous because of its low overall knockback and high recovery (for a jab). What doesn't help is that his rapid jab does low damage -- the lowest before Bayonetta got in and was given such damage values. In the case of Falco, there's no reason why his rapid jab is like this: low damage, lowest set knockback under one of Triple D's rapid jab hitboxes, and easy to escape. Had his jab 1 and jab 2 been amazing mixups by having very low recovery or if his rapid jab did 3.5% a pop, then sure, make it easy to escape since it would be stupid if it wasn't, but there's nothing there to suggest Falco's rapid jab is amazing and needs to be heavily tied down. At worst, the only broken thing about it is that it KOs at 30%, but that's against Falco when Jigglypuff can Rest during his rapid jab. Anyway, I digress.

Also, ROB's Uair loop hit data. For some reason, ROB's Uair loop hits work by calling a subroutine instead of having its hit data set with a normal loop such as Falco's Fair or even coded out hit by hit like Falco's Nair. Considering, if I read it correctly, it hits 4 times, coding it hit by hit wouldn't be that much of a problem nor would a normal loop.

|Damage|Angle|BKB|SKB|KBG|Hit Lag|SDI
Uair|1.5%|120° / 240°|70 / 25|0|20|x1.0|x1.0

 

[Sleek Media]

I agree with everything you said except for the part about megaman. His neutral is very strong with lemons being a huge factor. You say a long last hitbox can deal with it but there are quite a few factors you have to take into consideration. The various ways he can shoot the lemons: grounded, short/full hopped, retreating, advancing, the rate at which he's going to shoot them, and how many he's going to shoot while being able to mix-up and transition from one to another quickly and easily. Even if you do have a long lasting hitbox to power through lemons you still have to worry about megamans dash->shield and dash->grab. Megamans dash->shield->grab is pretty good for punishing an offensive advance from the opponent. You also have to worry about his dash grab which is also very potent when used in conjunction with lemons because it's a normal grab and not a tether. Him having a normal grab gives him a good answer to shields while also being threatening since he has low percent grab combos, gives him time to pull out metal blade, and solid edge guarding tools if the opponent is thrown offstage. Then there's the overall safety of lemons, they're pretty low commitment, especially at mid range. Then there's metal blade stuff that you have to deal with. Keeping metal blade out of his hands is also very important as it gives him more options in neutral while also giving him good or great reward off of a successful hit/setup with metal blade. Before anyone says something about item counter play it works both ways so I don't really see that as a legit solution. Then you have his aerials which are really good for punishing and zoning in the air. They can condition you not to jump, thus giving megaman more opportunities to do lemon stuff.

Basically his neutral is really good and i think you're going to need more than a long lasting hitbox (Ness says hi) to deal with megamans neutral. Megaman being top ten is debatable but I think he's top 15 minimum.

This is the kind of knee jerk theory craft that drives me nuts enough to post here. There is no mix up with pellets. He has 30 frames of endlag on them once he either stops shooting, or shoots three. Take your pick of how you want to get through - a long lasting hitbox, double jumping over them (he can't act fast enough to punish a fast faller), a better projectile, or just spacing them out then running in while he's in lag. Metal Blade is just as easy to out-prioritize as a single pellet, and it can even be caught with your own attack. Mega Man mostly wants to use it to punish in place of his non-existent tilt or drop it on a shield to create a frame trap (free grab). His aerials are NOT good for punishing in the air. His bAir has very low startup (f4), but it's too laggy to use safely, and the other three are much worse. It's ideal for making reads and getting kills, but not zoning.

I guess with just two Mega Man players being out there, it will be a while before counterplay becomes common, but trust me when I say that there are a many ways to rip this character apart, and that he has no business being considered top 10 as long as Shiek and Mario exist. His ability to approach is virtually nonexistent, and ironically enough, he is particularly vulnerable to camping due to his abysmal ground speed and inability to hit with projectiles from a distance. His only real kill option is bAir, so if you play it safe, you'll reliably live to 150%. Look out for tricks with MB drop (including holding one in air to trick you into thinking he can't bAir) and air shooter landings, and there's nothing he can really do to get the KO. People also need to start gimping him. His upB has no hitbox, and he has no quick nAir to get you off of him. Predict the early upB (they love to save their mid air jump).

 

[Djmarcus44]

M my_T , The main issue with Olimar's theory is the fact that the character has a poor disadvantage state. While Olimar has a passable recovery (He gets good distance, but it is pretty easy to edgeguard), he has some of the worst landing options in the game. While his small, floaty frame can make him somewhat difficult to combo, his light weight gets him killed very early.

Y Yonder , Mii Swordfighter is the most forgotten character in the game.

FeelMeUp , The low opinion that Dabuz has of Olimar has more to do with the fact that he doesn't see much potential in Olimar. Neither Dabuz or Angbad think that Olimar's metagame has much room for development.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Is it just me or did the SSB4 team purposefully design Sheiks tools to flow together