Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Derpy_Steve]

What bad matchups DOES Sheik have anyway? Never really known that

Let's face it. She really doesn't have a bad matchup.

Let's talk neutral game:
Needles are one of, if not, the best projectiles in the game. Being able to hold the charges, deal a fair amount of damage, angle in the air, has transcendant priority, is very fast, and the biggest factor: it deals HITSTUN AND KNOCKBACK. This makes this projectile remarkably safer than fox's lasers, which is already considered decent for a projectile. Falco is close, but due to VERY, VERY, low knockback and somewhat high end lag, he can easily get punish if he misses or if the opponent is close to him. This makes sheik near impossible to camp against, because she can just simply needle you until kill range. A well spaced fair is near impossible to punish, and if she does land one, she can begin a string just like that.

Her combo game is also one of the best in the game, falling only short to Ryu due to lower damage input and kill potential. But this is compensated by how easy and safe they are. Grabs nullifies shield, whereas Ryu need to use tilts, sour fair, second hit uair, etc. in order to start a string. She easily deals over 20% with almost every grab at low percent. Bouncing fish is an excellent combo finisher, and can be used after a sour spot nair. It is also MUCH safer than true shoryuken, due to the distance it puts between her and the opponent of it hits them OR their shield.

Oh, now that I mention it, Nair comes out at frame 3, and has a long sex kick hitbox, along with low endlag. It also have decent range, as her leg sticks out in front of her fully stretched.

The only category she's not REALLY good is killing via launching. But then again, the nair to bouncing fish is a kill confirm.

She also has (in my opinion) the best recovery. Her bouncing fish covers very far horizontal distance, and that with a double jump is really all that she needs. With that type of recovery, what would obviously come to mind is her edgeguarding capabilities. She can gimp you easily, using nair to cancel your double jump, use fair to keep you away from the ledge, and once she throws you close enough to the blast zone, a delicious meal of salty fish is at order. (That's an actual piece of food I had eaten before. It was good, unlike this one.)

Seriously, she has almost no downsides. A godly neutral, excellent combos, the most annoying of combo breakers, a great projectile, unrivaled edgeguarding capabilities, fair killing capabilities, and a very strong recovery.

 

[FeelMeUp]

sheik doesn't really have a combo breaker or unrivaled edgeguarding.

 

[Derpy_Steve]

sheik doesn't really have a combo breaker or unrivaled edgeguarding.

I'm pretty sure her nair is a combo breaker, unless your definition of combo breaker is something insanely fast like little mac's nair (frame 2).

For edgeguarding, well, yeah, I guess you can say Pikachu is better. And maybe Villager.

 

[FeelMeUp]

her nair won't ever break strings because she's a fastfaller. just because she's got a frame 3 nair doesn't mean it'll break out of strings a lot.
a frame 3 nair from yoshi isn't the same as a frame 3 nair from sheik.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'm pretty sure her nair is a combo breaker, unless your definition of combo breaker is something insanely fast like little mac's nair (frame 2).

For edgeguarding, well, yeah, I guess you can say Pikachu is better. And maybe Villager.

I would also say MK. Nair is big and meaty enough to bet out a lot of characters recoveries and catch 2 frames with ease, dair beats airdodges and sends them at an amazing angle, bair straight up kills, and you have 5 jumps to do any of these things multiple times with. Oh and everything is disjointed making it safer to challenge recoveries with a hitbox

 

[Twiranitar]

her nair won't ever break strings because she's a fastfaller. just because she's got a frame 3 nair doesn't mean it'll break out of strings a lot.
a frame 3 nair from yoshi isn't the same as a frame 3 nair from sheik.

I believe you forgot Bouncing Fish, a frame 3-4 intangible move (same speed as N-air) that travels a big amount to space (meaning your opponent cannot punish without good mobility and more importantly a potent read). It's not the first time someone mentions this move as a reason to Sheik's amazing disadvantage state.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I believe you forgot Bouncing Fish, a frame 3-4 intangible move (same speed as N-air) that travels a big amount to space (meaning your opponent cannot punish without good mobility and more importantly a potent read). It's not the first time someone mentions this move as a reason to Sheik's amazing disadvantage state.

Yeah.
That's not a string breaker.
It gets you out of juggle situations.

 

[Twiranitar]

Yeah.
That's not a string breaker.
It gets you out of juggle situations.

What's your definition of a string breaker? I'd like to know to understand the discussion.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Something that directly stops you from getting hit in an untrue combo. MK, for example, has none of these so he's essentially combo food.
If a Sheik gets hit by a Fox utilt at 20 she's going to eat the 40-50% and that's that.
If a Yoshi/Pikachu/Ness/Ryu get hit by a combo that isn't 100% guaranteed they can break out with nair/buffered Shoryu/Focus.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Sheiks nair is frame 3 though, cant she use that to break?

 

[Emblem Lord]

It is clear to me you people don't know what a combo is.

Still...

After over a decade.

Kill me.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Eh, it seems like the whole inconsistency thing is being very slightly overblown. I mean yes, after a series of patches that have periodically changed the metagame and taken strong tools away from characters, there have been a decent amount of upsets and surprise losses from top players. It's also true that Smash 4 has a lower skill floor than other fighting games and that's part of why it happens a lot too. With that said, this is still kind of being blown out of proportion. We had an entire year of one player winning everything. Even now, it's almost always the same 10-12 players winning things with obvious exceptions. There's very little RNG in this game and the fundamental mechanics still reward players with the best digital mobility and decision-making skills. Granted, close tier gaps + relatively easy game + short format + rage contribute to comebacks and cheese, but that's just part of the game and it clearly hasn't prevented the most skillful players from asserting continued dominance over the game's short lifespan.

Everyone remembers ZeRo getting 2 stocked by a Palutena, but no one remembers him steam rolling everyone in his path through loser's.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

her nair won't ever break strings because she's a fastfaller. just because she's got a frame 3 nair doesn't mean it'll break out of strings a lot.
a frame 3 nair from yoshi isn't the same as a frame 3 nair from sheik.

Actually her nair is a combo breaker in specific situations, I have saw Mr.R break out of combos by using nair even though it traded.

 

[FeelMeUp]

It is clear to me you people don't know what a combo is.

Still...

After over a decade.

Kill me.

I used string for the first post but got lazy and threw combo in after that since most people would start arguing over things like "oh then if it's a string why can't everyone get out of it"
and i don't feel like explaining that.

Actually her nair is a combo breaker in specific situations, I have saw Mr.R break out of combos by using nair even though it traded.

in those situations fair often also gets you out so i wouldn't say it's a thing that's notably specific to nair

edit:
You guys are probably tired of me talking about Sheik by now, but this is a solid example of what I mean when I say only ZeRo's Sheik makes certain matchups look unplayable with the way he understands her defensive options
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTfxqrDenfE
He does it to Ness, heavies, Luigi, G&W, etc.

 

[Ffamran]

her nair won't ever break strings because she's a fastfaller. just because she's got a frame 3 nair doesn't mean it'll break out of strings a lot.
a frame 3 nair from yoshi isn't the same as a frame 3 nair from sheik.

I think the problem is more on her being a lightweight and not a fast-faller. Why the developers decided any average -- (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Mii Brawler (medium and guest?), PAC-MAN, and Villager -- to even heavyweight characters -- Mii Brawler (heavy) and Yoshi -- should have frame 3 surround yourself in hitboxes Nairs is beyond me. I get it, they have short-range, but still... If they had Little and Ryu short-range or Falco short-range, then sure, but no, they basically have in terms of fighting games like KoF and SF, jump medium kick or jump heavy kick cross-ups where they have the coverage, range, and sometimes even power of them, but with jump light kick startup. Really? Frame 5 to 6 at least like Ryu or only let them be frame 3 if they're on lightweights like Falco -- his is a different move, but this still applies --, Pikachu, and Sheik.

Anyway, if Sheik's weight wasn't 81, but 90 or 100, then we'd be seeing a lot more complaints about her Nair interrupting auto-pilot followups. There would also be the problem of her living to high percents with her having average weight.

Should be noted that I'm not saying high fall speed (and high gravity for that matter) doesn't impact a character's ability to interrupt. Fall speed, gravity, and weight all impact it with fall speed and gravity impacting vertical knockback and weight impacting general knockback. In Sheik's case, high fall speed, high gravity, and low weight. She taking a lot more knockback in general than the average bear... plumber. A bear plumber... Thanks, Namco and Nintendo.

I believe you forgot Bouncing Fish, a frame 3-4 intangible move (same speed as N-air) that travels a big amount to space (meaning your opponent cannot punish without good mobility and more importantly a potent read). It's not the first time someone mentions this move as a reason to Sheik's amazing disadvantage state.

Bouncing Fish doesn't hit until, at the earliest, frame 17, or at the latest, frame 26. I don't know exactly where its I-frames are, but if it's on startup, that's only 2 I-frames and a 12 frame gap until the earliest hit or 21 until the latest hit. That's a lot of time where she's vulnerable and if she makes the wrong call, the short I-frames are wasted and she there's a window of vulnerability. Bouncing Fish being used that close up isn't going to happen outside of setups or a read. Now, if she had Little Mac's Jolt Haymaker frame data or even I-frames, that would be much better since she would be mostly invincible until the first active frame. Then again, that would be busted since Jolt Haymaker can hit as early as frame 9 with double Bouncing Fish's I-frames at the cost of it starting up 2 frames later, 5-8. Jolt Haymaker also hits late at frame 30 which has 10 I-frames, 5-14. ZSS's Flip Jump frame data would be better too... Invincibility starts at frame 3 and ends at 12, so 10 I-frames.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Can we stop arguing over semantics? When someone uses a slightly inaccurate term, let's do our best to give them the benefit of the doubt and focus on what we're here to talk about: the meta. Seriously, arguing over such trivial topics adds literally nothing to what we're here to discuss. This thread has enough bull**** as it is, please refrain from acting like a child and worsening it.

 

[PK Gaming]

If a car was going 90mph and colliding with Diddy's fair, I'm sure Diddy would win.

— Cable (@CableSWR) August 13, 2016

 

[Ninety]

I can't really see Mewtwo vs Lucario being unwinnable for Lucario when Mewtwo's featherweight plus rage and Aura means Mewtwo can die at any moment off the smallest mistake.

 

[blackghost]

For edgeguarding, well, yeah, I guess you can say Pikachu is better. And maybe Villager.

add bayo to that list.

 

[EternalFlare]

Eh, it seems like the whole inconsistency thing is being very slightly overblown. I mean yes, after a series of patches that have periodically changed the metagame and taken strong tools away from characters, there have been a decent amount of upsets and surprise losses from top players. It's also true that Smash 4 has a lower skill floor than other fighting games and that's part of why it happens a lot too. With that said, this is still kind of being blown out of proportion. We had an entire year of one player winning everything. Even now, it's almost always the same 10-12 players winning things with obvious exceptions. There's very little RNG in this game and the fundamental mechanics still reward players with the best digital mobility and decision-making skills. Granted, close tier gaps + relatively easy game + short format + rage contribute to comebacks and cheese, but that's just part of the game and it clearly hasn't prevented the most skillful players from asserting continued dominance over the game's short lifespan.

Everyone remembers ZeRo getting 2 stocked by a Palutena, but no one remembers him steam rolling everyone in his path through loser's.

It's not overblown imo. In anything it's understated. Here's a link to the top 24 bracket at Super Smash Con:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4xl89s/super_smash_con_ssb4_top_24/

Notice how the losers side looks WAY more stacked than the winners side because nearly all the favourites for the tournament got sent to losers very early.

At this point can an upset in Smash 4 even be called an upset anymore? Or should we just call it getting Smash 4ed? A guy can win one super major, get not even top 16 potentially at the next one and that's considered normal.

You bring up dominance but I'd argue results indicate there is truly no dominant player at all in Smash 4 anymore. No one comes close to anything resembling dominance. The closest one is probably Mr.R and even he didn't get top 8 at Evo.

 

[|RK|]

It's not overblown imo. In anything it's understated. Here's a link to the top 24 bracket at Super Smash Con:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4xl89s/super_smash_con_ssb4_top_24/

Notice how the losers side looks WAY more stacked than the winners side because nearly all the favourites for the tournament got sent to losers very early.

At this point can an upset in Smash 4 even be called an upset anymore? Or should we just call it getting Smash 4ed? A guy can win one super major, get not even top 16 potentially at the next one and that's considered normal.

You bring up dominance but I'd argue results indicate there is truly no dominant player at all in Smash 4 anymore. No one comes close to anything resembling dominance. The closest one is probably Mr.R and even he didn't get top 8 at Evo.

Sure, but one of the top players will win. Beyond that, I think the only way to determine why top players are getting upset is to actually watch the matches. We ignore the actual gameplay when talking about matches too often, and do the same thing with upsets.

Why did ZeRo lose to Day? Why did ANTi lose to True Blue? Etc.

 

[MachoCheeze]

I think another thing Melee has stained our scene with is we have this image of the top players NEVER being able to lose. When Melee had its resurgence there was tons of history established already and we had the gods. The gods who NEVER lose. Smash 4 is new. It doesn't have the history. Yes the top Brawl players initially had a good grasp on the game because, especially at the beginning, everyone was trying to play it like Brawl. It's moved past that now into a new era and people are catching up. The line between high and top players is very thin and I think it's going to be a good while before we actually have our top players for the game.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think another thing Melee has stained our scene with is we have this image of the top players NEVER being able to lose. When Melee had its resurgence there was tons of history established already and we had the gods. The gods who NEVER lose. Smash 4 is new. It doesn't have the history. Yes the top Brawl players initially had a good grasp on the game because, especially at the beginning, everyone was trying to play it like Brawl. It's moved past that now into a new era and people are catching up. The line between high and top players is very thin and I think it's going to be a good while before we actually have our top players for the game.

All smash games except smash 4 have established players (and when brawl was super active, it had established players also).

 

[money1246]

Emblem Lord What is your complete opinion on Ryu? Sometimes it seems like you think he's mid tier but sometimes you make it seem like he can crush anybody. On a scale of 1-10, where do you place his neutral, advantage and disadvantage game? Who out of the top 10 (Diddy, Shiek, Mario, Rosa, Cloud, Fox, ZSS, Sonic, Mewtwo, Bayo, Megaman) does Ryu beat?

 

[L9999]

All smash games except smash 4 have established players (and when brawl was super active, it had established players also).

ZeRo, Nairo, Ally, Dabuz, Larry Lurr, and Mr. R have been around since the beginning if I understand "established" correctly.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

ZeRo, Nairo, Ally, Dabuz, Larry Lurr, and Mr. R have been around since the beginning if I understand "established" correctly.

Whst I mean is that they don't have a death grip on the game. They get routinely upset.

 

[L9999]

Whst I mean is that they don't have a death grip on the game. They get routinely upset.

For some time they were untouchable though. From the Leo Mr. R fiasco and Abadango winning Pound every semblance of consistency went downhill.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mr. R, Larry, and Dabuz don't really lose to randoms.
Ramin beating ZeRo is the only time ZeRo lost to a random.
If anything, I'd look at their results and say they're the epitome of true consistency.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mr. R, Larry, and Dabuz don't really lose to randoms.
Ramin beating ZeRo is the only time ZeRo lost to a random.

I hope you just mispelled Ramen and didn't just call Mr. R a random . . .

 

[FeelMeUp]

I hope you just mispelled Ramen and didn't just call Mr. R a random . . .

It's 2 in the morning and I haven't slept in 2 days.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Emblem Lord What is your complete opinion on Ryu? Sometimes it seems like you think he's mid tier but sometimes you make it seem like he can crush anybody. On a scale of 1-10, where do you place his neutral, advantage and disadvantage game? Who out of the top 10 (Diddy, Shiek, Mario, Rosa, Cloud, Fox, ZSS, Sonic, Mewtwo, Bayo, Megaman) does Ryu beat?

I'd sooner put Marth in top 10 than Megaman

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here's a question.

Who has the worst pokes in the game?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dark.Pch I am curious of how you think of Peach's MUs, is the MK MU really that bad?

Lil late for the party but I don't think the match up is bad as people make it out to be. People keep going on about Sam vs aba. They will not question at all if he know how to deal with MK. They will not question if there were better things one could have done. That set does not tell me at all Peach vs MK is horrible for her. People are so quick to judge a match up against a character who one knows lil about or think is crap. And this is not with just MK. Other match ups as well that people know lil to nothing about on Peach's side. I bet if Peach was to come back and put down Aba's MK down mutiple times, one would say he was playing it wrong. This mentality is not good at all and I am seeing it here as I read through some of the Peach comments.

People will never question stuff or try to find an answer to something. They see something happen once and thats it. It's set in stone, both ends knew what they were doing. Knowing lil to nothing about a character/match up adds on to this alot. There isnt a single person here right now (who thinks the match up is terrible) that can tell me just how Peach is suppose to play it and what Sam should have done to make Aba struggle alot to win. I can think of 10 things. If people put as much effort when it comes to these with these over used high tiers as they did in cases like this, I not be seeing some of the things I see here with Peach or any character around Peach's tier class. Or even lower on the tier list.

"Blah blab blah, Being bias cause you a Peach main and she sucks,lolololol"​

For those that wanna hit me with that, let me beat you to the punch. Look at this vid where I explain Peach metagame not that great and how she will not make big waves alot in big tournaments. And this is coming from ME.

I tell all the things Peach players do wrong and why they get hit. I even used clips from the best Peach players in the world, Umeki and SlayerZ. So there is no bias here at all. Then why people play her as of now, I have lil to no faith she will be hitting top 8 with the gods of this game. And this is coming from me of all people. Those that know me for years know I quit for no one and stay to what I believe in with my character or else I not bother playing. I let nothing in this game discourage me. Now after you watch that, keep in mind all that I said and go watch Sam vs Aba again. Look at why/how he gets hit. Then I want you to "try" and tell me he did all that he could have and had the match up on point. To a scale that he knows how to deal with MK, and still got washed, thus making this match up so terrible.

EDIT--------------------------vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

He played this set way too honestly. There were numerous times where he put Peach into death percent only to hit him out of the death percent with a mediocre combo. I don't know if deliberately chose to do this or is not aware of when Peach dies but it was a mistake either way. There were quite a few times where he controlled the pace with forward air well. I would have liked to see him handle Peach's shield pressure better.

Looking the thread a bit more I found this post. You just prove my point. How quick you are to call out all the so call errors MK made in terms of why he lost. But would not do it to the set that Sam lost to Aba. Why would you not say some of the things he could have done to make aba do more work? You have no idea what Peach should be doing or how to handle certain things that would get her killed. This is what I am talking about. Then people clam you know a match up or the match up is good/bad. To know a match up you need to know what the enemy can do to you to make you struggle. Not just what you can do to them. And this is what I been reading in here for the past hour catching up. You and everyone else on this boat don't know what Peach should be doing. All I hear is that MK has this and that, camp, etc. Yet none of you are asking how should he play. how she should avoid dash attacks. What are ways she can be hard to hit while being close. How the neutral should be play. What she should and should not do and why.

Also dude, some of the stuff I have seen you say about Peach is you judging a book on its cover. You really don't know alot about this character to be talking about her like you do. You say she lacks or has no disjoints. Yet fail to mention her Dtilt. The most disjointed move she has. You go on about her neutral, and fail to state what it consist of. You go on about how people have projectiles/range and speed but fail to explain 3 factors Peach has to actually deal with this. You say her floating is about positioning. It's not. not even close. You should ask question or do a lil homework next time before you talk about a field you lack knowledge in.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord What is your complete opinion on Ryu? Sometimes it seems like you think he's mid tier but sometimes you make it seem like he can crush anybody. On a scale of 1-10, where do you place his neutral, advantage and disadvantage game? Who out of the top 10 (Diddy, Shiek, Mario, Rosa, Cloud, Fox, ZSS, Sonic, Mewtwo, Bayo, Megaman) does Ryu beat?

Homie I posted my match-up chart like 4 pages back. That should tell you what you need to know.

Ryu has slight advantage vs ONE top tier. Then loses to most of them and goes even with like....two?

What do you think? Is that a top ten character?

When he first dropped I was skeptical he could be top tier. People said he could be number 1 and I scoffed at that. All I said about the char really is that if you sleep on him you get buried and you can't fight him like other chars. That's about it.

I think in the grand scheme in maybe another year or two when Ryu players STOP trying to ****ing jump at people and fair when they get scared, Ryu will have even match-ups vs the majority of the cast. He is simply not designed to really invalidate anyone. His tools don't work that way. He can counter poke almost anyone, but that gameplay style means automatically you are relinquishing control of neutral to your opponent and now you must shut down their attempts to open you up. To do this kind of high level reactive gameplay consistently in a game like smash is really ****ing difficult and its why you see most top players simply try to overwhelm their opponent and then swarm them when they are in disadvantage. Something Ryu cannot do btw. Which is why his high damage is so necessary for his design.

The one tech that I was hoping would overcome his limitations in neutral was step dash and he can't really do it.

So yeah....all this talk of "max potential" I find extremely irksome. What matters is how a char interacts with other chars. There are things that most Ryus aren't doing yet. Things I know because of my Street Fighter exp and I am sure it will catch on eventually. But I see no 20SF future for Ryu where he dominates the meta. He is not built that way.

To answer the second part of your question.

Neutral: Average - Probably a 5
Disadvantage: Slightly above average - 7 at best
Advantage: Awesome - 9 or a 10

But again his neutral is hard to rate because its like....90% counter play. Which really means its up to the player's skill.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Here's a question.

Who has the worst pokes in the game?

I think Pikachu.

Every move he has is super short-ranged outside of Tjolt. pikachu's neutral either consists of bum rushing the opponent like ESAM, or playing very defensive and turtling up once you have the lead. You have to avoid footsies to do good with him.

 

[Ulevo]

Lil late for the party but I don't think the match up is bad as people make it out to be. People keep going on about Sam vs aba. They will not question at all if he know how to deal with MK. They will not question if there were better things one could have done. That set does not tell me at all Peach vs MK is horrible for her. People are so quick to judge a match up against a character who one knows lil about or think is crap. And this is not with just MK. Other match ups as well that people know lil to nothing about on Peach's side. I bet if Peach was to come back and put down Aba's MK down mutiple times, one would say he was playing it wrong. This mentality is not good at all and I am seeing it here as I read through some of the Peach comments.

People will never question stuff or try to find an answer to something. They see something happen once and thats it. It's set in stone, both ends knew what they were doing. Knowing lil to nothing about a character/match up adds on to this alot. There isnt a single person here right now (who thinks the match up is terrible) that can tell me just how Peach is suppose to play it and what Sam should have done to make Aba struggle alot to win. I can think of 10 things. If people put as much effort when it comes to these with these over used high tiers as they did in cases like this, I not be seeing some of the things I see here with Peach or any character around Peach's tier class. Or even lower on the tier list.

"Blah blab blah, Being bias cause you a Peach main and she sucks,lolololol"​

For those that wanna hit me with that, let me beat you to the punch. Look at this vid where I explain Peach metagame not that great and how she will not make big waves alot in big tournaments. And this is coming from ME.

I tell all the things Peach players do wrong and why they get hit. I even used clips from the best Peach players in the world, Umeki and SlayerZ. So there is no bias here at all. Then why people play her as of now, I have lil to no faith she will be hitting top 8 with the gods of this game. And this is coming from me of all people. Those that know me for years know I quit for no one and stay to what I believe in with my character or else I not bother playing. I let nothing in this game discourage me. Now after you watch that, keep in mind all that I said and go watch Sam vs Aba again. Look at why/how he gets hit. Then I want you to "try" and tell me he did all that he could have and had the match up on point. To a scale that he knows how to deal with MK, and still got washed, thus making this match up so terrible.

EDIT--------------------------vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv




Looking the thread a bit more I found this post. You just prove my point. How quick you are to call out all the so call errors MK made in terms of why he lost. But would not do it to the set that Sam lost to Aba. Why would you not say some of the things he could have done to make aba do more work? You have no idea what Peach should be doing or how to handle certain things that would get her killed. This is what I am talking about. Then people clam you know a match up or the match up is good/bad. To know a match up you need to know what the enemy can do to you to make you struggle. Not just what you can do to them. And this is what I been reading in here for the past hour catching up. You and everyone else on this boat don't know what Peach should be doing. All I hear is that MK has this and that, camp, etc. Yet none of you are asking how should he play. how she should avoid dash attacks. What are ways she can be hard to hit while being close. How the neutral should be play. What she should and should not do and why.

Also dude, some of the stuff I have seen you say about Peach is you judging a book on its cover. You really don't know alot about this character to be talking about her like you do. You say she lacks or has no disjoints. Yet fail to mention her Dtilt. The most disjointed move she has. You go on about her neutral, and fail to state what it consist of. You go on about how people have projectiles/range and speed but fail to explain 3 factors Peach has to actually deal with this. You say her floating is about positioning. It's not. not even close. You should ask question or do a lil homework next time before you talk about a field you lack knowledge in.

All I am seeing is a lot of presumptious talk with little analysis. You're very good at making big long posts about nothing.

I did comment on what Samsora was doing wrong, you just omitted the posts where I talked about that. My comments about her having no disjoints are relative exaggerations, not to be taken literal. I said this already.

If you feel I said something incorrect, you should talk less about how I am wrong and more about why I am wrong. This is a waste of time to read.

 

[DJBor]

Emblem Lord What is your complete opinion on Ryu? Sometimes it seems like you think he's mid tier but sometimes you make it seem like he can crush anybody. On a scale of 1-10, where do you place his neutral, advantage and disadvantage game? Who out of the top 10 (Diddy, Shiek, Mario, Rosa, Cloud, Fox, ZSS, Sonic, Mewtwo, Bayo, Megaman) does Ryu beat?

First of all that's a top 11, and is often seen as a top 10 pick before and .

Wait hold up, people think that Mega Man is top 10? No way. I'd believe it if ScAtt wins Smash Con, but come on, top 10? What's there to justify it, Kamemushi? By that logic, Meta Knight is still top 10 because of MKLeo alone. (well maybe MK is still that good, but let's be real there are a lot of characters in Smash 4 that play fair but are still strong)

But I get it, you want to understand those 11 matchups because they are all important. Ryu's neutral is best broken by characters who can deal with Focus Attack and Hadokens better than others. You want a strong disjoint, a reflector, or something else that can override the armor. among those 11 will give Ryu the toughest time.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox doesn't really give Ryu a hard time. Ideally he'll be running away from Ryu half of the time.

 

[Dark.Pch]

All I am seeing is a lot of presumptious talk with little analysis. You're very good at making big long posts about nothing.

I did comment on what Samsora was doing wrong, you just omitted the posts where I talked about that. My comments about her having no disjoints are relative exaggerations, not to be taken literal. I said this already.

If you feel I said something incorrect, you should talk less about how I am wrong and more about why I am wrong. This is a waste of time to read.

If this is what you think, then you clearly did not see my vid if you are claming "lil" analysis. And I dont think you should be telling me "you should talk less about how I am wrong and more about why I am wrong". Cause nearly everything you said about her was pure judging or lack of knowledge. I'm not the only one here who told you this. All you did was just go on stuff many corrected you for always. And you base everything based on one match as if both parties were on equal fields of match up knowledge. If that post was a waste of time to read, then yours was not worth a skim. You did not even ask, you just throw random/false info on peach. So I don't think you are in a position to tell me that.

If you wanna know something you can easily ask, and I'll answer no problem. But i'm not gonna speak on a field I know lil about like you have been doing.

Let me also point out that I am not mad or looking for a fight, since people like to assume that from me. I am just fine and talking. Nothing more or less.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu has slight advantage on Fox.

sooooooooooooooooooooo..yea

And Hadouken is not a good move. It should not even be relevant to MU discussion. Most of the cast have very easy answers to it. FAF is 58.