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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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DanGR

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Is there any video of any Cloud utilizing Instant Limit Cancel as a Melee Peach Prince Pivot? As in using any option out of Dash/Run like Peach can in Melee? I can't recall any myself but I'd love to be wrong. While not as crazy as the Prince Pivot which lets you do things like Dsmash OoS (not even a good option anyways, jab OoS is better) since you don't enter jumpsquat with it, it basically lets Cloud do whatever it wants but makes it too input intensive.
Like he could Shield Dash but he still has to drop shield to use whatever option he wants, but ILC has doesn't limit him that way.
Any frame data on how long ILC takes before he's actionable again?

There's also the fact that overall Cloud is better with limit. The loaded gun is more intimidating. But I'd like to see more of that kind of ground game.
Short hopped up air covers a lot of the same options ILC->up tilt would cover. Being in the air during upair also lets Cloud drift towards his opponent and trap an airdodge more effectively, whereas with uptilt you're 'stuck' in one spot and can't follow up as well.

Dtilt doesn't seem to have a lot of practical uses with ILC besides perhaps getting through some projectile walls... idk. It looks cool but when would you want to use it out of a dash over dash attack? It's quicker than ILC->dtilt, and it simply powers through attacks instead of getting under them. The hitbox is meatier, disjointed, and reaches fairly high vertically as well.

I can't see ILC->ftilt/jabs being all that useful over other options either, but feel free to show me otherwise.

Overall I think there's a lot of overlap in use cases with other, better options, though it's probably something worth learning and implementing for very specific uses.
 
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Dark.Pch

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The issue here is that you assume you can stop Meta Knight from positioning himself outside of your range but keeping inside of his. You cannot. Meta Knight is faster than you on the ground, has better means of repositioning, and between the distance covered by dash attack and the initial dash animation you are always vulnerable. I would also like to mention that you only have so much stage to space with to reposition yourself, and while playing at the edge is something you want to do at specific percent ranges, you cannot do this the entirety of the time because it limits your ability to stay out of my range even more.
Right now you are assume I saying I can do this and never get hit. That's an image you need to get out of your head. Also speed isnt everything. Pikachu is faster then Peach and SlayerZ and put down Pikas such as Nakat and Esam. Esam was also losing to Peach alot in brawl. playing a good neutral makes one hard to hit. If I make something hard for you, its not a free ticket to a win. So all this speed you go on about is not your savior.

Also I am not vulerable if I am not in that zone for you to safely swing. Same for me, hence "neutral"



It's active for 5 frames, frames 7-11, and very few characters are able to viably punish this move. A smart Meta Knight is not going to use dash attack 1 unless it will cross up on shield, and Peach does not have the mobility to punish the cross up. A smart Meta Knight is also not going to use dash attack 3 unless you throw out a move or action because it is unsafe on block, but this also means you cannot do much because of the distance it commands.
Glad you said this. Just made things a lil easier for me. FIrst off, if MK hits my shield with that move and near me I can punish him. Such as dash attack out of shield. Good range and 6 frames. Now if not in range and get crossed up on shield, I said to not try and punish it. Best to back off. And did say that Peach needs to be patients since her moves leave her open to the speed of MK closing the gap quick enough to punish. The neutral resets, and I don't do something foolish for MK to combo me to death. Which is what I wanna avoid. And making it hard for you to hit me. And best part of it all is I still have my stock.



Peach does not have the mobility tools to outspace Meta Knight. He has one of the best fox trots and perfect pivots in the game, his dash attack commands a lot of space, and Peach cannot reposition with enough space to account for this and Meta Knight's disjoints. Not to mention that you cannot reposition at the ledge, which is where you need to be at early percents, and the punishment for a single mistake is that you die.
His foxtrot one of the best? You are seriously gonna have to show me this one cause I dont see it in the lines of mac and falcon. Peach movement options on the ground are way better then MK. She has one of the best movement options in the game. It's a persudo wavedash. The QFR vid I posted here explains this in more detail so I wont. out spacing you with my Normals? Not happening, MK has that. Movement wise? I have that and with a turnip in hand its even better while QFR.



Except they are. Meta Knight is the epitome of a bait and punish character in Smash IV. Fox trots, perfect pivots and stalled dash attacks mixed in with empty hops and air jumps all good choices. Not to mention Turnips are not threatening. They don't throw you into a tech knockdown like Gyro, or trip you like Diddy's banana. The risk reward for me going after you while you are holding a Turnip is heavily skewed in my favor.
With turnips I dont have to be close to you to deal damage. I does not matter if its range is not like others or cause a trip. A projectile is a projectile. You still have a range to respect dude. And if you don't I get damage. I don't have to be near you to rack %. You on the other hand do. And when a turnip hits, I can re catch it. How often you see Peach hit one person with a turnip right there and not regrab it over and over. Most do it to dash attack at times it wont kill. Best just to regrab it and save that dash attack follow up for when it will kill. So the risk and reward is not in your favor. You go on alot and this disjoints/range but when I have something that out ranges you, you still have the advantage? You are being on sided here.



Good Meta Knight's do not give you openings to punish them. They bait you into an action and punish you for it. Even if you manage to punish with a Turnip, what does that give you? Percent. If I can manage this against competent Sheik players, why should I be concerned about what a Peach is going to do with a Turnip in hand and poor mobility?
Good Peach players are not gonna just swing in a zone they are gonna get punished on wiff or give you free pressure. If the player can not get a clear hit, then they should not be trying to force anything. I'm not giving you anything to react too. Thus again "Neutral" And I explained this already in the metagame video. The same thing meta does to get a hit or bait, Peach does it to due to her moveset. She has to play like that. And what does a turnip do after it hits?

  • I recatch it right there and keep you in check for trying to come at me again.
  • I get to control a range I have the advantage of on the ground. You can not just freely come at me
  • I can move in and out while tossing it and recatch if it hits.
  • I can get free pressure if I Z-grab and then instant toss at you. This can also lead to baited actions and manipulation.
  • Keep good kill confirms fresh as I rack up damage such as turnip to dash attack.
  • Keep you cornered if near the ledge with a mix of what I said in this list.

So you pick Little Mac, who has the best ground game in the entire cast, and Falcon, who has an unreactable 50/50 on the ground, as a means to establish your comparison? That's like me saying Ryu isn't heavy because he's not Dedede or Bowser.
You are saying MK has good grounded movement options to bait and harass Peach. When he really does not. Characters of that Nature would be lil mac and falcon. Thus I brought them up. MK is not in that class.

He has better speed, better movement, better disjoints, more accessible damaging combos, better kill options. I am well aware of Peach's ground movement and it means next to nothing in this match up. You can't shield during float cancels. You start skipping around in neutral and you are going to get laddered, and you cannot use it to move in and out of my space because again you do not have the mobility to dictate that.
I can shield during QFR. I dont have to wait till my dash animation ends like the rest of the cast. Next I'm only gonna get hit if I QFR within a range I can get hit of something. If I stay out of that range, Im not getting hit with anything you come at me with. This is what good micro spacing is and one of the key factors to playing a good neutral is. Cause I know my range of my opponents attacks the safe distance I should be. This is what happens alot when you watch high level Melee with them wavedashing. There is a reason they are doing it. It's not just for show. And as well in other fighters just as Street Fighter.

You need to let go of this mobility thing as your trump card. Cause it isnt one. If I am not in range to be touched you can't hit me no matter how fast you are when you swing. It's that simple.



There is no reason to do this. You retreat to the air against characters with strong grab games that have large grab boxes or good speed. Peach has neither. Meta Knight's goal is to stay on the ground and either wait for you to make a mistake and kill you, or punish you for playing defensive and kill you.
How are you gonna punish me for being defensive? If I am giving you lil to nothing to react too? If you swing, you assume I am gonna something to get a hit. Or space something. So explain this one to me. If your answer is " I have speed, I can just come in and hit you easily etc." then no.


So what are you going to do? Pull out unsafe Turnips in my dash attack range, and wiff punish the whole game? You're telling me that the reason's Peach lose is because they play aggressive and commit to unsafe actions, but what do you against a Meta Knight that plays patiently? You cannot spend the whole game turtling when you literally die to two combos. You are going to eventually make a mistake, the difference is that Meta Knight can afford to make them and you have very few tools to pressure the enemy Meta Knight into making errors.
Why would I even get a turnip in dash attack range. Why even say this to begin with when this whole time I have been talking about not doing stuff to leave you open? If meta, is playing calm, im not gonna go in at him with floating air attacks and spaced air attacks. I'm gonna worry about me. I don't wanna get hit so I will take my time till I see something I can take control of while being close and out of attack range. Also you keep doing on about me bond to make a mistake. And seem like you never will to a point I can take control of the match. You coming off as MK can play perfect. If you gonna use this mistake card on me, use it on yourself as well.




Samsora played the match up poorly, but that does not mean the match up is not atrocious. Anectdotal claims really.
Actually, that's what you are basing this on. Show me a vid, just one vid where a Peach fighting MK has done stuff I said in my metagame vid, the turnip regrabs and play a solid neutral where he can not easily swing. You will not find one. You can't clearly judge a match up based on Peach not handling MK properly. Cause none ever seen it done correctly. That's like me saying you suck at smash 4 based on what you are telling me, but I have never seen you play this game. Have Peach do all these things, get washed then say this match is crap. There isnt a single one who has. And if you wanna hit me with the Umeki card from apex cause he won, still does not show him doing what I stated to make it much harder for MK to get the win. MK did not make Umeki work as much as she should have.

I respect that you think Peach's meta is not particularly strong, but you misunderstand the strengths and goals of Meta Knight in this match up while overestimating Peach's ability to handle it.
Actually you seem to come off as he has no weakness and I can't do a darn thing to hit this bat. When you go to beat someone down, you don't worry and go on about their strengths and go on about it over and over and over again. You don't challenge thier strengths. You go for the weak spots. And this is what you focus on. Cause this whole time this is what you be targeting to death on Peach. You are overrating his strengths way too hard like this is brawl MK. If that was the case, MK would be winning tournaments like nothing. But he isn't and there is a reason for that. And there is a reason he isn't high tier, or else people will be flocking to him like they did in brawl cause they wanna win and get money.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Top 16 upper tournament results:

1. Sheik: 238.5
2. Diddy Kong: 207
3. Cloud: 157.5
4. Zero Suit Samus: 139.5
5. Fox: 139.5
6. Mario: 136
7. Rosalina & Luma: 125
8. Sonic: 114
9. Bayonetta: 109
10. Toon Link: 76

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-581#post-21371264

Cloud's results are still good, even if you stick to only bigger tournaments.
It's hard to not have that high an amount of points when you have Anti, MKLeo, Komorikiri, Tweek, M2K and Rain all contributing points on a regular basis. That's not even including 'lesser' players that use Cloud and place well with him like Masashi and Sodrek. Not since the days of pre-patch Diddy has any character had such insane amounts of representation.

The question shouldn't be why people think Cloud is overrated when he has such good results. The question should be how a character with that kind of rep can be anything but #1 on these rankings by a landslide. Like, how can Cloud still be freaking 80 points below Sheik and 50 below Diddy here? Give Mario, Mewtwo, Fox, Rosalina, Bayonetta ... just about any top tier character that kind of representation and their results would skyrocket too.

:059:
 

Loota

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His worst match up is Ness or Fox, I've asked around and researched a bit on that

Mewtwo might do well but Fox and Ness just do far worse in terms of shut down.
I have no idea how Ness is supposed to shut down Luc in any way (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised even if the matchup turned to be in Luc's favour since Ness is bad at dealing with a camping Luc). Fox is worse for sure but I can't see him beating Luc any worse than +1 if even that.

I haven't been in touch with the Lucario community in ages so I have no idea what people generally think about his matchups nowadays. I remember disagreeing with a lot of them though and looks like the trend hasn't changed whee.
 

Frihetsanka

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The question shouldn't be why people think Cloud is overrated when he has such good results. The question should be how a character with that kind of rep can be anything but #1 on these rankings by a landslide. Like, how can Cloud still be freaking 80 points below Sheik and 50 below Diddy here? Give Mario, Mewtwo, Fox, Rosalina, Bayonetta ... just about any top tier character that kind of representation and their results would skyrocket too.
It's because pockets and secondaries are "worth" less in the weighted. If we instead look at the unweighed:

Top 16:

Cloud: 406
Sheik: 405
Diddy Kong: 381
Fox: 275
Sonic: 261

Top 8:

Sheik: 245
Cloud: 231
Diddy Kong: 209
Sonic: 140
Rosalina & Luma: 138
Mario: 123

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
 

Baby_Sneak

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Individual inputs were twice as strong in previous games, and Melee/Brawl allowed you to use the C-stick as well as the control stick, whereas Sm4sh does not (since the C-stick overrides the control stick)
Can't you override this with tilt stick?
 

teddystalin

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It's because pockets and secondaries are "worth" less in the weighted. If we instead look at the unweighed:

Top 16:

Cloud: 406
Sheik: 405
Diddy Kong: 381
Fox: 275
Sonic: 261

Top 8:

Sheik: 245
Cloud: 231
Diddy Kong: 209
Sonic: 140
Rosalina & Luma: 138
Mario: 123

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
The problem with using Koopa's "upper level only" results to defend Cloud's high placements overall is the discrepancy between the "upper level" tournaments used there and what most people here have in mind when they're talking about top level results. Koopa's rankings only cut out Category 1 tournaments, which have ~120 or fewer entrants. Category 2 tournaments are still by and large regional or super-regional affairs, areas where people agree Cloud still performs strongly. If you look at only the Category 3 and 4 tournaments (majors and super majors) used in that batch of data, these are the only placements Cloud has:

5th at Pound (Tweek)
5th x2, 13th at GOML (M2K, Leo as secondary, PikaPika as co-main)
1st at CEO (ANTi as one of three secondaries)

..And that's it. This is what people are talking about when they say Cloud has middling results at top level. SSC will add another couple of 13th place finishes, but it still paints an underwhelming picture.
 

DavemanCozy

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Frihetsanka Frihetsanka But isn't that what Gheb is trying to say? Based on the results you referenced, when Cloud has won tournaments it's rarely been on his own. In the Japanese scene, where he does relatively well, he doesn't win tournaments on his own since getting nerfed. Kamemushi's victory at Umebura 23 happened with Mega Man, using Cloud for some matchups. MKLeo also doesn't win exclusively with Cloud, nor does he use him for an entire tier 2 tournament either. And the ones who use Cloud exclusively? Mew2King has not yet won even a tier 2 since the patch.

For the record, I can't imagine Cloud as anything but top 10. I personally do not agree with Gheb about Cloud dropping below top 10. Even with his atrocious recovery, you can't ever count him out; that much is obvious, he can KO you just as early as ZSS or Ryu. He has some of the easiest frame traps to set up and execute; once you're in the air it is very difficult to stop him. Full Limit benefits him pretty well in grounded footsies with the added speed, even if he gets combo'd easier. Cloud counterplay is there, but he's typically at an advantage whenever he gets going. It's not like you can ever count Cloud out of the equation.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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It's hard to not have that high an amount of points when you have Anti, MKLeo, Komorikiri, Tweek, M2K and Rain all contributing points on a regular basis. That's not even including 'lesser' players that use Cloud and place well with him like Masashi and Sodrek. Not since the days of pre-patch Diddy has any character had such insane amounts of representation.

The question shouldn't be why people think Cloud is overrated when he has such good results. The question should be how a character with that kind of rep can be anything but #1 on these rankings by a landslide. Like, how can Cloud still be freaking 80 points below Sheik and 50 below Diddy here? Give Mario, Mewtwo, Fox, Rosalina, Bayonetta ... just about any top tier character that kind of representation and their results would skyrocket too.

:059:
We are talking about Cloud, who is super iconic by himself and hugely popular.

I wouldn't have been suprised if he was the other unannounced pick from the smash ballot.
 

Ethan7

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It's hard to not have that high an amount of points when you have Anti, MKLeo, Komorikiri, Tweek, M2K and Rain all contributing points on a regular basis.
The same could be said for Sheik when you have Mr. R, VoiD, False, Cacogen and others.
 

Shady Shaymin

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Been out of town for a while. Anyone wanna hit me with a quick tl;dr of this week'so big stories and post-ssc impressions/developments?
 

CervidKing

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The problem with using Koopa's "upper level only" results to defend Cloud's high placements overall is the discrepancy between the "upper level" tournaments used there and what most people here have in mind when they're talking about top level results. Koopa's rankings only cut out Category 1 tournaments, which have ~120 or fewer entrants. Category 2 tournaments are still by and large regional or super-regional affairs, areas where people agree Cloud still performs strongly. If you look at only the Category 3 and 4 tournaments (majors and super majors) used in that batch of data, these are the only placements Cloud has:

5th at Pound (Tweek)
5th x2, 13th at GOML (M2K, Leo as secondary, PikaPika as co-main)
1st at CEO (ANTi as one of three secondaries)

..And that's it. This is what people are talking about when they say Cloud has middling results at top level. SSC will add another couple of 13th place finishes, but it still paints an underwhelming picture.
This post made me a bit curious, so I decided to use Koopa's methodology to find the current scores for Category 3 and 4 tournaments.

1. Sheik - 95
2. Diddy Kong - 68.5
3. Fox - 60
4. Zero Suit Samus - 50.5
5. Rosalina - 42
6. Mario - 39.5
7. Cloud - 26
8. Mewtwo - 25
9. Mega Man - 24
10. Marth - 23
11. Meta Knight - 23
12. Sonic - 23
13. Donkey Kong - 22
14. Bayonetta - 22
15. Villager - 21
16. Toon Link - 19
17. Ness - 16
18. Ryu - 15.5
19. Lucario - 14
20. Olimar - 12.5
21. Pit - 10
22. Pac-Man - 6.5
23. Little Mac - 6
24. Ike - 6
25. Luigi - 5
26. Palutena - 5
27. Pikachu - 5
28. Shulk - 5
29. Peach - 0
30. Bowser - 0
31. Yoshi - 0
32. Bowser Jr. - 0
33. Wario - 0
34. Game & Watch - 0
35. Link - 0
36. Zelda - 0
37. Ganondorf - 0
38. Samus - 0
39. Robin - 0
40. Duck Hunt - 0
41. Kirby - 0
42. King Dedede - 0
43. Falco - 0
44. Charizard - 0
45. Jigglypuff - 0
46. Greninja - 0
47. R.O.B. - 0
48. Captain Falcon - 0
49. Wii Fit Trainer - 0
50. Dr. Mario - 0
51. Dark Pit - 0
52. Lucina - 0
53. Lucas - 0
54. Roy - 0
55. Corrin - 0
56. Brawler - 0
57. Swordfighter - 0
58. Gunner - 0

1. Sheik - 104
2. Fox - 73
3. Diddy Kong - 72
4. Zero Suit Samus - 62
5. Mario - 51
6. Cloud - 44
7. Rosalina - 42
8. Donkey Kong - 33
9. Marth - 31
10. Meta Knight - 31
11. Olimar - 25
12. Mewtwo - 25
13. Villager - 24
14. Mega Man - 24
15. Sonic - 23
16. Bayonetta - 22
17. Ryu - 21
18. Toon Link - 19
19. Ness - 16
20. Lucario - 14
21. Pac-Man - 13
22. Pit - 10
23. Little Mac - 6
24. Ike - 6
25. Luigi - 5
26. Palutena - 5
27. Pikachu - 5
28. Shulk - 5
29. Peach - 0
30. Bowser - 0
31. Yoshi - 0
32. Bowser Jr. - 0
33. Wario - 0
34. Game & Watch - 0
35. Link - 0
36. Zelda - 0
37. Ganondorf - 0
38. Samus - 0
39. Robin - 0
40. Duck Hunt - 0
41. Kirby - 0
42. King Dedede - 0
43. Falco - 0
44. Charizard - 0
45. Jigglypuff - 0
46. Greninja - 0
47. R.O.B. - 0
48. Captain Falcon - 0
49. Wii Fit Trainer - 0
50. Dr. Mario - 0
51. Dark Pit - 0
52. Lucina - 0
53. Lucas - 0
54. Roy - 0
55. Corrin - 0
56. Brawler - 0
57. Swordfighter - 0
58. Gunner - 0

Tournaments used: GOML 2016, 2GGT KTAR Saga, CEO 2016, and EVO 2016. I opted to only use results from 1.1.6.

He may leave top 5, but Cloud does not drop out of top 10 in either case. His results at the top level are still pretty strong.
 
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Ulevo

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Right now you are assume I saying I can do this and never get hit. That's an image you need to get out of your head. Also speed isnt everything. Pikachu is faster then Peach and SlayerZ and put down Pikas such as Nakat and Esam. Esam was also losing to Peach alot in brawl. playing a good neutral makes one hard to hit. If I make something hard for you, its not a free ticket to a win. So all this speed you go on about is not your savior.
So because Peach wins the Pikachu match up, or a few Peach players win versus a fast character, you disregard the significance of mobility?

Okay.

Also I am not vulerable if I am not in that zone for you to safely swing. Same for me, hence "neutral"
And if you are not in my zone, I am never in yours. Mine is bigger. So what, are you just not going to play?


Glad you said this. Just made things a lil easier for me. FIrst off, if MK hits my shield with that move and near me I can punish him. Such as dash attack out of shield. Good range and 6 frames. Now if not in range and get crossed up on shield, I said to not try and punish it. Best to back off. And did say that Peach needs to be patients since her moves leave her open to the speed of MK closing the gap quick enough to punish. The neutral resets, and I don't do something foolish for MK to combo me to death. Which is what I wanna avoid. And making it hard for you to hit me. And best part of it all is I still have my stock.
You know Meta Knight can ladder Peach from a forward throw right? You cannot sit in shield and block forever, waiting for the perfect moment for each exchange because the Meta Knight player will call you out on your defensive option and hit you with a confirm based on your stage position and roll, spot dodge or other evasive patterns. Just because you can block a crossed up dash attack does not mean you are making headway.


His foxtrot one of the best? You are seriously gonna have to show me this one cause I dont see it in the lines of mac and falcon. Peach movement options on the ground are way better then MK. She has one of the best movement options in the game. It's a persudo wavedash. The QFR vid I posted here explains this in more detail so I wont. out spacing you with my Normals? Not happening, MK has that. Movement wise? I have that and with a turnip in hand its even better while QFR.
One of the best movement options in the game on one of the worst characters to utilize its potential. The sheer length of Meta Knight's perfect pivot and his ground speed make his movement better than Peach. I am also curious how you are going to find the time to pull Turnips for your neutral game since the moment you start plucking veges I am going to ladder you.

And there you go again using Little Mac and Falcon, two extremes, to make a comparative example.


With turnips I dont have to be close to you to deal damage. I does not matter if its range is not like others or cause a trip. A projectile is a projectile. You still have a range to respect dude. And if you don't I get damage. I don't have to be near you to rack %. You on the other hand do. And when a turnip hits, I can re catch it. How often you see Peach hit one person with a turnip right there and not regrab it over and over. Most do it to dash attack at times it wont kill. Best just to regrab it and save that dash attack follow up for when it will kill. So the risk and reward is not in your favor. You go on alot and this disjoints/range but when I have something that out ranges you, you still have the advantage? You are being on sided here.
Again, when are you going to have viable chances to pull Turnips in your neutral? FAF on a Turnip pull is frame 43. Unless I am thrown into the air, off stage or just spawning, you do not have the chance to do so without eating a combo, which you cannot afford to do in this match up because you die for it.

You act like I am wrong here about the risk reward thing but all you need to do is watch Abadango versus Samsora's set to see I am right. How many times did Peach die before 30%?


Good Peach players are not gonna just swing in a zone they are gonna get punished on wiff or give you free pressure. If the player can not get a clear hit, then they should not be trying to force anything. I'm not giving you anything to react too. Thus again "Neutral"
Your zone does not cover mine. What happens if I decide to not give you openings? What happens if I have the lead? Peach's pressure game is strong, but her ability to create situations to pressure is poor, and you are against a character that has a dash grab and dash attack that cover a lot of space that you cannot react to.

And I explained this already in the metagame video. The same thing meta does to get a hit or bait, Peach does it to due to her moveset. She has to play like that. And what does a turnip do after it hits?

  • I recatch it right there and keep you in check for trying to come at me again.
  • I get to control a range I have the advantage of on the ground. You can not just freely come at me
  • I can move in and out while tossing it and recatch if it hits.
  • I can get free pressure if I Z-grab and then instant toss at you. This can also lead to baited actions and manipulation.
  • Keep good kill confirms fresh as I rack up damage such as turnip to dash attack.
  • Keep you cornered if near the ledge with a mix of what I said in this list.
You cannot bait and punish Meta Knight anywhere near to the degree Meta Knight can with Peach.

You are explaining the benefits of a general item, but not how Turnips specifically help you to win neutral against Meta Knight the character, or how they help to prevent you from dying to a hit confirm or being pressured into the edge of the stage. Again, FAF 43.



You are saying MK has good grounded movement options to bait and harass Peach. When he really does not. Characters of that Nature would be lil mac and falcon. Thus I brought them up. MK is not in that class.
This is wrong.

I can shield during QFR. I dont have to wait till my dash animation ends like the rest of the cast. Next I'm only gonna get hit if I QFR within a range I can get hit of something. If I stay out of that range, Im not getting hit with anything you come at me with.
There is a very basic principle you are not comprehending. You cannot tell me that you can win a match up by staying out of a characters range when in order for you to get a hit against that character you have to be inside their range to do so. Your only solution to playing neutral against a character that is faster than you, longer disjoints, and commands more range than you is 'not do anything in your range' and 'Turnips.'

Also, you cannot shield during the initial frames Peach is off the ground during her float cancel, and that leaves you open to a confirm.

This is what good micro spacing is and one of the key factors to playing a good neutral is. Cause I know my range of my opponents attacks the safe distance I should be. This is what happens alot when you watch high level Melee with them wavedashing. There is a reason they are doing it. It's not just for show. And as well in other fighters just as Street Fighter.
Thanks for educating me on the merits of basic Smash play.

You need to let go of this mobility thing as your trump card. Cause it isnt one. If I am not in range to be touched you can't hit me no matter how fast you are when you swing. It's that simple.
And I am telling you that the only way for you to even hit me is by coming into my zone, which leaves you vulnerable, where as I do not need to do the same, and that your only rebuttle to this is a FAF 43 Turnip pull.


How are you gonna punish me for being defensive? If I am giving you lil to nothing to react too? If you swing, you assume I am gonna something to get a hit. Or space something. So explain this one to me. If your answer is " I have speed, I can just come in and hit you easily etc." then no.
You cannot outspace my moves with the distance and speed they have. You need to block them, and if you block I am going to grab you.

You seem to think that you are going to have some level lf clairvoyance in this match up and that a Meta Knight putting you into a situation where you have to guess when he is going to confirm into a combo and how is not a problem because you have an answer everytime. You cannot react to the majority of these options, and in order for you to do anything outside of throw Turnips, you need to risk entering the space these moves occupy.


Why would I even get a turnip in dash attack range. Why even say this to begin with when this whole time I have been talking about not doing stuff to leave you open?
Exactly. You are not going to have many situations to even pull Turnips, so why is this even a topic of discussion?

If meta, is playing calm, im not gonna go in at him with floating air attacks and spaced air attacks. I'm gonna worry about me. I don't wanna get hit so I will take my time till I see something I can take control of while being close and out of attack range. Also you keep doing on about me bond to make a mistake. And seem like you never will to a point I can take control of the match. You coming off as MK can play perfect. If you gonna use this mistake card on me, use it on yourself as well.
There is a lot of irony here. You cannot kill Meta Knight from a dash attack before 20%. I can make five to six times the amount of mistakes you can afford to make per stock.

Actually, that's what you are basing this on. Show me a vid, just one vid where a Peach fighting MK has done stuff I said in my metagame vid, the turnip regrabs and play a solid neutral where he can not easily swing. You will not find one. You can't clearly judge a match up based on Peach not handling MK properly. Cause none ever seen it done correctly. That's like me saying you suck at smash 4 based on what you are telling me, but I have never seen you play this game. Have Peach do all these things, get washed then say this match is crap. There isnt a single one who has. And if you wanna hit me with the Umeki card from apex cause he won, still does not show him doing what I stated to make it much harder for MK to get the win. MK did not make Umeki work as much as she should have.
I do not need to have video evidence to understand the tools each characters have and assess which one wins. Not to mention it goes both ways. Do you think Abadango was playing perfectly in that set? Abadango is not even close to the level of Meta Knight Leo is. Why is this not a factor?



Actually you seem to come off as he has no weakness and I can't do a darn thing to hit this bat. When you go to beat someone down, you don't worry and go on about their strengths and go on about it over and over and over again. You don't challenge thier strengths. You go for the weak spots. And this is what you focus on. Cause this whole time this is what you be targeting to death on Peach. You are overrating his strengths way too hard like this is brawl MK. If that was the case, MK would be winning tournaments like nothing. But he isn't and there is a reason for that. And there is a reason he isn't high tier, or else people will be flocking to him like they did in brawl cause they wanna win and get money.
No. You main a mid tier character that has a poor amount of options in this specific case. That does not mean these strengths apply to every other match up, so stop insinuating I am suggesting Meta Knight is invincible. If you think he is not high tier though, you're dilussional.

This has been some Radical Larry level stuff. I can debate with people who have different views but if you do not understand basic concepts while trying to teach me about neutrals and the purposes of wavedashing then I have better things to do.
 

Frihetsanka

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The problem with using Koopa's "upper level only" results to defend Cloud's high placements overall is the discrepancy between the "upper level" tournaments used there and what most people here have in mind when they're talking about top level results. Koopa's rankings only cut out Category 1 tournaments, which have ~120 or fewer entrants. Category 2 tournaments are still by and large regional or super-regional affairs, areas where people agree Cloud still performs strongly.
That is a very good point. I'll admit that, based on top level results alone, Cloud is not top 3. Still, are we trying to figure out how strong characters are when played well, or are we trying to figure out how strong characters are when played at the absolute top level? I think including tournaments with hundreds of players is reasonable, and even then a lot of top players (such as Dabuz and ZeRo) consider Cloud a top 3 character.

Fox having the 3rd best results using only category 3 and 4 tournaments is interesting, although at that point I believe it's more about some players (such as Larry Lurr) doing really well with the character rather than the character truly being #3.

Donkey Kong #13 and Little Mac #23 is also interesting.
 

NairWizard

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Meta Knight outrewards Peach without having a significantly worse neutral game. In fact, it's probably significantly better, because he's so much faster on the ground.

That should really be all there is to this argument.
 

Ethan7

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CervidKing CervidKing I'm getting different numbers after adding the results with data of those tournaments on SmashWiki.

soniczx123 soniczx123 I wonder if he's serious. He's also claiming he's maining the character now. Or he is just secondary'ing Sonic which isn't too surprising.
There was a problem fetching the tweet
If he's wrong, then what MU can you confidently state Sonic loses to?
 
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Frihetsanka

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You have me intrigued. Who do you think does counter Sonic then? If you disagree with Anti, fine, but giving actual reasons why would be much more useful for discussion.
I've read that Rosalina & Luma, Zero Suit Samus, and Mega Man also have a favorable matchup against Sonic.
 

Nidtendofreak

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CervidKing CervidKing I'm getting different numbers after adding the results with data of those tournaments on SmashWiki.

soniczx123 soniczx123 I wonder if he's serious. He's also claiming he's maining the character now. Or he is just secondary'ing Sonic which isn't too surprising.
There was a problem fetching the tweet
If he's wrong, then what MU can you confidently state Sonic loses to?
Ike still has his significantly winning record against Sonic at top level. Only one Sonic main has a winning record against top level Ikes.

After that, MegaMan, ZSS, Rosalina as all have been mentioned.
 

Ethan7

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Ike still has his significantly winning record against Sonic at top level. Only one Sonic main has a winning record against top level Ikes.

After that, MegaMan, ZSS, Rosalina as all have been mentioned.
Interesting, I wouldn't have thought Ike would have and advantage over Sonic. Where are you getting these results?
I don't know about those three match-ups mentioned. I don't know if they beat him solidly.
 

soniczx123

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Interesting, I wouldn't have thought Ike would have and advantage over Sonic. Where are you getting these results?
I don't know about those three match-ups mentioned. I don't know if they beat him solidly.
Based on results, Ike has the edge. On paper it's even, but hella work for Sonic. A battlee of mental attrition.

You have me intrigued. Who do you think does counter Sonic then? If you disagree with Anti, fine, but giving actual reasons why would be much more useful for discussion.
Megaman, Fox and Cloud along with ZSS to a small extent counter Sonic. There are MUs which are even but have to be played perfectly or else he's screwed. I'll explain more tomor row after I get my sleep (aka as so as I remember).

I want to discuss Sonic in general cause it seems like nobody besides few dedicated Sonic mains actually understands how Sonic works as a character.
 
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Shaya

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"no solid counter" is hardly wrong, especially if you consider it in terms of ability to use a pocket/secondary character.
No pocket pick is going to oust a competent Sonic main barring perhaps Cloud (going by recent evidence, but it isn't a guaranteed trend).

Various characters having reliable spin dash "counter play" doesn't inherently mean squat (other than Sonic has to like, respect your character just a tinsy little bit [the HORROR!11!!])
 
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CervidKing

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CervidKing CervidKing I'm getting different numbers after adding the results with data of those tournaments on SmashWiki.
I pulled results from this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Koopa's criteria for deciding what characters should be counted are pretty consistent. It's still possible I made an error tho.

5th @ GOML, category 3: 8
5th @ GOML, secondary, cat 3: 4
7th @ GOML, secondary, cat 3: 3.5
13th @ GOML, secondary, cat 3: 2.5
1st @ CEO, secondary, cat 4: 8
Sum: 26

At the very least, I'm pretty sure I didn't make any mistakes here, based on Koopa's records and described scoring methodology.
 

Knife8193

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I expected Cloud, seeing as one would guess that his strengths in this MU are similar or the same as Ike's, huge disjoint and some good autocancels, with the added plus of Limit camping.
According to Ryo, one of the biggest advantages Ike has over Sonic is being able to pivot grab his spindash (since his pivot grab range is huge) and fairly good grab reward. Idk how this applies to Cloud.
 

Baby_Sneak

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Just read that haitani found an OS for OS jump back/tech on wake up in SFV. In training mode. SFV, just like any modern fighter, has a wealth of options for players to use for knowledge and understanding. Us? We're lucky to just get A training mode. smh. I'm mad jealous.

Oh, and I've read and watched that tilt stick is objectively better than smash stick. Is this true?
 

[BROF]

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Isn't Sonic supposed to struggle against Disjoints? Ike has a kill confirm out of Uthrow>Fair (good luck grabbing him though), and AC Fair and Dtilt do wonders in keeping Sonic if he tries to approach grounded, but if you want to see what makes the MU work well I'd recommend watching Ryo's Sets against players like Streetshark, StaticManny (now AllMight I believe? Plays Roy nowadays) and SuperGirlKels.
 

Nidtendofreak

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According to Ryo, one of the biggest advantages Ike has over Sonic is being able to pivot grab his spindash (since his pivot grab range is huge) and fairly good grab reward. Idk how this applies to Cloud.
That's the big one. Sonic spin dashes. Sonic then takes significant damage or is flat out killed either due to Dtilt or Pivot Grab. Or just gets denied by Nair/Fair/Bair and doesn't have anything to punish due to little/no landing lag. Can be done fairly consistently. Add in KOing potential difference and it adds up over a game.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Oh, and I've read and watched that tilt stick is objectively better than smash stick. Is this true?
In my opinion it's a preference thing. Depending on your character they can really benefit from tilt like Marth or Zelda since tilts are a large part of their game. Personally I use Smash stick with Ness since inputting D-tilt is easy for me on the analog and makes it easier to D-Tilt Trip-Fsmash.
 

Locke 06

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Meta Knight outrewards Peach without having a significantly worse neutral game> In fact, it's probably significantly better, because he's so much faster on the ground.

That should really be all there is to this argument.
I think the bolded is MU dependent. There seems to be a parrot trend of overrating MK's neutral. He's good at baits & bursts, but not good at approaching or necessarily great at stuffing approaches safely. His saving grace is dtilt, which he can almost spam in cqc, but often it can lead into nothing since it is difficult to hitconfirm with. Otherwise he's not coming at you with anything but DA/DG or some kind of defensive approach>tilt.

In essence, he doesn't have that "poke" most characters have (unless you call his Fsmash this) whether it's a projectile or safe aerial. He very much tries to bait your poke and then whiff punish, or anticipate the poke and hit you in startup. When he initiates, he goes all in either to be punished or punish. This is why he's so campy, his MU's are so campy, and why it can be frustrating to play against.

Watching Leo vs Ally is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. Ally makes Leo commit much more than he does. Also, he doesn't get the devastating punishes on Mario that he gets on others. I was curious why he didn't go MK at the egames, thus these thoughts.
 
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Nobie

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I had a crazy thought a while back that I hesitated to write about, but now I'm returning to it to see if it'll go anywhere.

So when we talk about match-ups and tier lists, we generally assume that two players of top-level skill are playing against each other, and that they are more or less optimal in their play while accounting for natural human error. Theory and results are both used to varying degrees.

But we also know that it's nearly impossible to have two players who are perfectly evenly matched. It's plain difficult to quantify, and it leads to arguments because no one is sure who is playing the best version of a given character, or if even that player is truly maximizing the character's potential.

However, what we do have is different levels of skill evident between players of the same character. For example, we can safely say that Ally is a better Mario than Zenyou. If we say that Ally shows that Mario can defeat Mewtwo pretty handily, can we say the same thing about Zenyou's Mario? If not, what's the difference between the two players?

My suspicion is that while we think of matchup numbers and such as evenly proportioned differentiators in skill, this might not necessarily translate to actual skill differences between players. Just as a hypothetical example, perhaps a small skill difference between two Marios has less influence on how well the character can succeed compared to if Ganondorf has a similar amount of skill difference. In other words, it'd be possible that Ganondorf loses X matchup if both players are truly even, but if the Ganondorf is slightly better, then the likelihood of winning swings more drastically compared to if a Mario was slightly better. Again, just an example.
 

FeelMeUp

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Since I'm a Sheik nut and I have nothing better to do for the next 5 hours I'm going to take the data for how much damage Mr. R/VoiD got every time they put someone in a ledgetrap situation at SSC.
Going to count until the opponent successfully resets to neutral.
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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...I've read and watched that tilt stick is objectively better than smash stick. Is this true?
There are certainly more pros than cons for tilt stick when you compare it to smash stick. Buffering tilts out of perfect pivots and not losing momentum when using an aerial with the c-stick being notable ones, but I'd still say it's up to personal preference. To use myself as an example, I use smash stick for Falcon, but tilt stick for my other characters with the exception of Mac where I switch depending on player and/or character MUs. Mac dittos, for example, being a situation where I'd use smash stick cause super armor is kinda needed a bit more in this MU and I can still do perfect pivot > turn around ftilt just fine without tilt stick, I just don't get to buffer it.
 

soniczx123

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Okey, so as we all know, Sonic is considered a top tier in Smash 4, even after all his nerfs. This is good and all, but it seems like the general consensus of Sonic as a character is misinterpreted by the community. Reasons for this include mass of misinformation from top players and the Sonic community having not fully committed to explaining the character in full detail (Ixis has been working on guide for the past 6-7 months, 4000 words in and not finished) and I'll try to bridge that gap as much as I can while explaining MUs which are troublesome. Hopefully this will spark somekind of meaningful discussion on this thread. :)

So to start off, MUs.

The MUs that are considered to be of a disadvantage for Sonic in the current metagame are Fox, Megaman, Cloud and ZSS (to lesser extent now thanks to the nerfs) along with Ike and Yoshi depending on which Sonic main you ask. All of theses characters have one thing in common: they either make Sonic commit first or possess options which allows them to beat Spindash with great reward.

Megaman has his pellets which beats it at any range along with granting him stage control, forcing Sonic into shield.
ZSS has nair and her tether grab and we all know her punish game, while not as potent, is still a force to be reckoned with. Fox has pure mobility + DA which sets up perfectly for his superb juggle game. Cloud has his amazing aerial disjoints and Down-B, forcing to approach.

There are also MUs which Sonic doesn't lose per se, but are really hard to if he doesn't play outside his comfort zone. These are the likes of TL, Wii Fit. Basically, characters that forces Sonic to approach. Sonic in his design can't act first in any situation. He always has to wait for the opponent to react first and find any opening in which he can land a SpinDash. I usually draw parallels with Boss Fights in classic Sonic games (Genesis Era). In these fights, go in head on vs them usually resulted in instant death as your moves would just lose to theirs.

So how did you beat them???

You waited for them to act first, and punished them on their endlag with your speed.

That's how Sonic plays in essence, by acting second in every neutral situation. It's emphasized in how his hitboxes work. Most of them are small and attached close to his body, meaning that losing trades is a given most of the time. This is also why most Sonic matches take a long time. He has to respect all of characters options and take his time racking up damage.

I have some quotes from my convo with Ixis to bring my point forth better.

"Sonic matches don't go slow because Sonic's just don't want to approach (except Manny), they go slow because the opponent learns that so much of their neutral actions get punished easily; going aggressive against Sonic in neutral is generally a bad idea so they're inclined to stay grounded and shield and bait a lot and play safe, and Sonic has to play against that game because he can't just up and beat shield like Sheik or Diddy who have amazing dash-grabs"

"Yup, and it's why playing Sonic can seem like a struggle against good or bad characters, because we still have to play around their options, whereas other top tiers can just shut them down completely"

And at last, Sonic's neutral game.

It's all an illusion. An extremely cleaver illusion which most people have just accepted and not bothered to find counterplay to.

"We can cover that ground quickly, but we can't get through shield at the same time, since our dash-grab is terrible and everything else is unsafe. That right there is the core problem with Sonic. Because we can't hit shield with advancing aerials or beat shield with anything on the ground except standing grab, we don't really have a choice but to play neutral and coax them into a sub-neutral state that we can actually beat"

"Not exactly "off of neutral" but to a less desirable state of neutral, like getting them to whiff a poke or short hop too close. Things like that we can punish if we're ready. The difference between other characters and Sonic, is that wheras small actions like those are generally safe against most, it's little stuff like that which Sonic can actually punish quite hard because of SD/SC"

What Ixis means here is that, while Sonic is amazing ground speed and spindash covers a lot of ground for moving hitbox, shielding SpinDash or SpinCharge puts Sonic in an awful situation. as he only has two options: jump or go pass you. By jumping, Sonic goes into an aerial state, which is bad as his aerials are horrible for covering below him.

That means he either has to spring or just fall and hope for the best. Now most people think "just spring and you get away for free". That would be case if Spring sent you so high so you have to stay in the air even longer, making it even more difficult to land because of the lack of landing options. But " just dair and you're fine!". Dair has no disjoint and is extremely predictable if you see what direction Sonic is facing after the spring and will be punished by competent players.

Essentially, he always sent to disadvantage if spindash doesn't connect during every commitment to it.

Here's where Wrath's playstyle comes in.

Wrath is smart player in the fact that he abuses one significant trait that most of the Smash 4 community shares: We have no idea of how Spindash works and therefore see SpinDash Shield Canceling as some godlike option which requires no commitment and always him to pressure from across the stage for free. That's simply incorrect and I have presented conunterplay to that strat multiple times in this thread. Walk up shield is the key. Don't let Sonic get any breathing room. By walking up to him from across the stage, you're mentally pressuring to release SpinDash or he'll eat a punish sooner or later.

I wrote this on a whim, so the structure might be inconsistent.

If you have any questions, free to ask me or @Camalange or @Ixisnaugus (Refer to these two first though, they are more knowledgeable than me)

Thanks for reading and I hope this sparks somekind of discussion!
 
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Nobie

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Okey, so as we all know, Sonic is considered a top tier in Smash 4, even after all his nerfs. This is good and all, but it seems like the general consensus of Sonic as a character is misinterpreted by the community. Reasons for this include mass of misinformation from top players and the Sonic community having not fully committed to explaining the character in full detail (Ixis has been working on guide for the past 6-7 months, 4000 words in and not finished) and I'll try to bridge that gap as much as I can while explaining MUs which are troublesome. Hopefully this will spark somekind of meaningful discussion on this thread. :)

So to start off, MUs.

The MUs that are considered to be of a disadvantage for Sonic in the current metagame are Fox, Megaman, Cloud and ZSS (to lesser extent now thanks to the nerfs) along with Ike and Yoshi depending on which Sonic main you ask. All of theses characters have one thing in common: they either make Sonic commit first or possess options which allows them to beat Spindash with great reward.

Megaman has his pellets which beats it at any range along with granting him stage control, forcing Sonic into shield.
ZSS has nair and her tether grab and we all know her punish game, while not as potent, is still a force to be reckoned with. Fox has pure mobility + DA which sets up perfectly for his superb juggle game. Cloud has his amazing aerial disjoints and Down-B, forcing to approach.

There are also MUs which Sonic doesn't lose per se, but are really hard to if he doesn't play outside his comfort zone. These are the likes of TL, Wii Fit. Basically, characters that forces Sonic to approach. Sonic in his design can't act first in any situation. He always has to wait for the opponent to react first and find any opening in which he can land a SpinDash. I usually draw parallels with Boss Fights in classic Sonic games (Genesis Era). In these fights, go in head on vs them usually resulted in instant death as your moves would just lose to theirs.

So how did you beat them???

You waited for them to act first, and punished them on their endlag with your speed.

That's how Sonic plays in essence, by acting second in every neutral situation. It's emphasized in how his hitboxes work. Most of them are small and attached close to his body, meaning that losing trades is a given most of the time. This is also why most Sonic matches take a long time. He has to respect all of characters options and take his time racking up damage.

I have some quotes from my convo with Ixis to bring my point forth better.

"Sonic matches don't go slow because Sonic's just don't want to approach (except Manny), they go slow because the opponent learns that so much of their neutral actions get punished easily; going aggressive against Sonic in neutral is generally a bad idea so they're inclined to stay grounded and shield and bait a lot and play safe, and Sonic has to play against that game because he can't just up and beat shield like Sheik or Diddy who have amazing dash-grabs"

"Yup, and it's why playing Sonic can seem like a struggle against good or bad characters, because we still have to play around their options, whereas other top tiers can just shut them down completely"

And at last, Sonic's neutral game.

It's all an illusion. An extremely cleaver illusion which most people have just accepted and not bothered to find counterplay to.

"We can cover that ground quickly, but we can't get through shield at the same time, since our dash-grab is terrible and everything else is unsafe. That right there is the core problem with Sonic. Because we can't hit shield with advancing aerials or beat shield with anything on the ground except standing grab, we don't really have a choice but to play neutral and coax them into a sub-neutral state that we can actually beat"

"Not exactly "off of neutral" but to a less desirable state of neutral, like getting them to whiff a poke or short hop too close. Things like that we can punish if we're ready. The difference between other characters and Sonic, is that wheras small actions like those are generally safe against most, it's little stuff like that which Sonic can actually punish quite hard because of SD/SC"

What Ixis means here is that, while Sonic is amazing ground speed and spindash covers a lot of ground for moving hitbox, shielding SpinDash or SpinCharge puts Sonic in an awful situation. as he only has two options: jump or go pass you. By jumping, Sonic goes into an aerial state, which is bad as his aerials are horrible for covering below him.

That means he either has to spring or just fall and hope for the best. Now most people think "just spring and you get away for free". That would be case if Spring sent you so high so you have to stay in the air even longer, making it even more difficult to land because of the lack of landing options. But " just dair and you're fine!". Dair has no disjoint and is extremely predictable if you see what direction Sonic is facing after the spring and will be punished by competent players.

Essentially, he always sent to disadvantage if spindash doesn't connect during every commitment to it.

Here's where Wrath's playstyle comes in.

Wrath is smart player in the fact one significant trait that most of the Smash 4 community shares: We have no idea of how Spindash works and therefore see SpinDash Shield Canceling as some godlike option which requires no commitment and always him to pressure from across the stage for free. That's simply incorrect and I have presented conunterplay to that strat multiple times in this thread. Walk up shield is the key. Don't let Sonic get any breathing room. By walking up to him from across the stage, you're mentally pressuring to release SpinDash or he'll eat a punish sooner or later.

I wrote this on a whim, so the structure might be inconsistent.

If you have any questions, free to ask me or @Camalange or @Ixisnaugus (Refer to these two first though, they are more knowledgeable than me)

Thanks for reading and I hope this sparks somekind of discussion!
I think Sonic exploits a lot of what Bayonetta also takes advantage of, which is autopilot play that arises from an assumption that one's tools can just be thrown out safely without much thought. That's not to say every single person who loses to Sonic is dumb or anything, but that fighting Sonic almost feels like a game of chicken.

Whenever people complain about Sonic, I think, "What do you expect from a character that's supposed to be that fast?"

Same thing goes for Olimar. "Ugh, all he does is avoid attacks and chuck Pikmin." Have you seen what his game is like???
 

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I'm alive, data thread has been updated with the previewed map and tournies & whatnot. Current top 15, Top 16/Weighted:

Diddy Kong: 409
Sheik: 399
Cloud: 349
Sonic: 281
Fox: 269
Rosalina & Luma: 250.5
Mario: 243.5
Zero Suit Samus: 198.5
Bayonetta: 175.5
Ryu: 143.5
Captain Falcon: 121
Marth: 112.5
Toon Link: 110
Meta Knight: 109
Mewtwo: 108
 
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