Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[SaltyKracka]

Yeah, and get punished for making the wrong prediction because Spin Dash is way too safe, as he's been saying.

 

[EternalFlare]

You can, I've been pivot grabbed by Mario's and Ike for example. It's possible if you read and then time it right. Not React, Predict.

I've only ever talked about reaction, I made that clear in the first post about it.

Which is a huge difference. With a read, if you're wrong, you get punished. If you could react, there would be no risk involved.

There is counter play to spin dash but it's mostly character dependant. If you can force Sonic to approach instead of bait (Cloud) or actually threaten with burst range (ZSS) you can beat the strategy. Otherwise not really, campy Sonic is going to win out.

So it's a pretty polarizing option in a game with fairly tame neutrals and Sonic would be better designed if they buffed his other moves while nerfing it.

 

[soniczx123]

I've only ever talked about reaction, I made that clear in the first post about it.

Which is a huge difference. With a read, if you're wrong, you get punished. If you could react, there would be no risk involved.

There is counter play to spin dash but it's mostly character dependant. If you can force Sonic to approach instead of bait (Cloud) or actually threaten with burst range (ZSS) you can beat the strategy. Otherwise not really, campy Sonic is going to win out.

So it's a pretty polarizing option in a game with fairly tame neutrals and Sonic would be better designed if they buffed his other moves while nerfing it.

You want everything to be reactable??

 

[Locke 06]

I want to (need to go bed, first day of school tomorrow) but i'll lose the argument if I leave it like this.

"Losing arguments"
If you're arguing on Smashboards, you've pretty much already lost.

Also my argument has been that Sonic's landing options are quite good, above average. And somehow you think mentioning yet another option that I didn't know about....weakens my argument? Lol. Talk about irony.

Yes, and the fact that you didn't know about it discredits everything else you've said about Sonic.

You don't know the character. Why are you talking about him as if you do? #CCI

 

[EternalFlare]

You want everything to be reactable??

From that kind of range? Yes.

Most aerials start up in 10 frames or lower. So they aren't technically reactable but you can predict when they are about to happen based off the positioning of you versus the opponent. So you have to work your way in your positions where they are effective in the first place and then do small mixups to trick your opponent who's already now expecting them. That's what keeps them in check.

Now imagine if you could do a sub 10 frame aerial that reached half way across stage.

Not to say Sonic is that extreme. But his spin dash on top of being unreactable at mid-close ranges also leads into good damage, combos and kill confirms AND is invincible. That's just way too much going for one move.

And the way Nintendo has balanced Sonic is to give him this one really good move on top of a lot of mediocre moves. Which I think is silly and a poor way to balance any character. Why not just give a character 23 balanced moves instead? Move that can be really good in certain situations but rely heavily on the player's skill to shine and don't invalidate most of the cast?

"Losing arguments"
If you're arguing on Smashboards, you've pretty much already lost.

Yes, and the fact that you didn't know about it discredits everything else you've said about Sonic.

You don't know the character. Why are you talking about him as if you do? #CCI

I mentioned 4 different landing options Sonic has. According to you my argument that Sonic has multiple decent landing options falls apart because...I didn't mention a 5th? One that according to you is even better than the ones I mentioned? And that somehow weakens the argument that Sonic has good landing options?

Please consider how silly you sound before responding again with ad hominem.

 

[soniczx123]

From that kind of range? Yes.

Most aerials start up in 10 frames or lower. So they aren't technically reactable but you can predict when they are about to happen based off the positioning of you versus the opponent. So you have to work your way in your positions where they are effective in the first place and then do small mixups to trick your opponent who's already now expecting them. That's what keeps them in check.

Now imagine if you could do a sub 10 frame aerial that reached half way across stage.

Not to say Sonic is that extreme. But his spin dash on top of being unreactable at mid-close ranges also leads into good damage, combos and kill confirms AND is invincible. That's just way too much going for one move.

And the way Nintendo has balanced Sonic is to give him this one really good move on top of a lot of mediocre moves. Which I think is silly and a poor way to balance any character. Why not just give a character 23 balanced moves instead? Move that can be really good in certain situations but rely heavily on the player's skill to shine and don't invalidate most of the cast?



I mentioned 4 different landing options Sonic has. According to you my argument that Sonic has multiple decent landing options falls apart because...I didn't mention a 5th? One that according to you is even better than the ones I mentioned? And that somehow weakens the argument that Sonic has good landing options?

Please consider how silly you sound before responding again with ad hominem.

Spindash isn't his only good move lol. Shows how much knowledge you possess of the character, I guess. Uair, Bair, Ftilt, Fsmash, Jab, Uthrow, Dthrow and Bthrow are all great moves in Sonic's disposal.

 

[EternalFlare]

Spindash isn't his only good move lol. Shows how much knowledge you possess of the character, I guess. Uair, Bair, Ftilt, Fsmash, Jab, Uthrow, Dthrow and Bthrow are all great moves in Sonic's disposal.

I said it was his only really good move. Not his only good move in general.

If he lost one of the moves you mentioned he'd still be a great character.

If he lost spin dash, his entire gameplan would change. That's why I say the move is polarizing.

 

[Nobie]

I think it's a mistake to say hat Sonic has an auto-pilot neutral. He has an incredible neutral, yes. One might even say that he "ignores neutral," as has been argued in the past, and that he often has an edge over slower characters if they do not have a way to throw out lingering hitboxes like Ike does.

But if you look at the way Komorikiri plays (and I think it's safe to call him the best Sonic currently), it's less spin dash and its hitboxes that makes him strong, and more spin dash CANCEL. That spin dash cancel is basically trying to psych the opponent out constantly, get them to freak out and commit unnecessarily. And in Smash land, many players are accustomed to just throwing out strong hitboxes and winning neutral that way.

Sonic has two main assets on his side. First, he has incredible speed, which translates to the ability to punish things from a further distance than any other character in the game. Second, is that his moveset is incredibly deceptive all around. F-smash lets him lean back and beat out attacks. Homing Attack slams into the ground but allows for an immediate follow-up. Spin Dash cancel does what it does, and I don't think it's an accident that both it and Spin Charge look so similar. This deception is to the point that it actually masks his moments of vulnerability, which is what I think soniczx123 is talking about. Sonic can get away with a lot of things, but he makes you think he can get away with a lot more than he actually can. He still has to make reads and predictions just like any other character, he just has more situations where that's less necessary, and as a result in situations where he does have to make a read, it almost appears as if he didn't have to at all.

The greatest strength of campy Sonic isn't that he's an unassailable wall, it's that he PISSES PEOPLE OFF. Gets them antsy. You could say that a character shouldn't operate this way, but I think that's a very subjective matter.

 

[Krysco]

Wasn't the whole point of bringing up Sonic to better inform people? What EternalFlare has said seems sound enough (I know very little about Sonic and hence am enjoying the discussion going on here) namely in regards to landing options (they're better than a lot of what my characters have Edit: save for ) What he/she's said doesn't seem to be discredited by the lack of knowing about spinshot or the lacking mention of the listed good moves by soniczx123.

 

[soniczx123]

I think it's a mistake to say hat Sonic has an auto-pilot neutral. He has an incredible neutral, yes. One might even say that he "ignores neutral," as has been argued in the past, and that he often has an edge over slower characters if they do not have a way to throw out lingering hitboxes like Ike does.

But if you look at the way Komorikiri plays (and I think it's safe to call him the best Sonic currently), it's less spin dash and its hitboxes that makes him strong, and more spin dash CANCEL. That spin dash cancel is basically trying to psych the opponent out constantly, get them to freak out and commit unnecessarily. And in Smash land, many players are accustomed to just throwing out strong hitboxes and winning neutral that way.

Sonic has two main assets on his side. First, he has incredible speed, which translates to the ability to punish things from a further distance than any other character in the game. Second, is that his moveset is incredibly deceptive all around. F-smash lets him lean back and beat out attacks. Homing Attack slams into the ground but allows for an immediate follow-up. Spin Dash cancel does what it does, and I don't think it's an accident that both it and Spin Charge look so similar. This deception is to the point that it actually masks his moments of vulnerability, which is what I think soniczx123 is talking about. Sonic can get away with a lot of things, but he makes you think he can get away with a lot more than he actually can. He still has to make reads and predictions just like any other character, he just has more situations where that's less necessary, and as a result in situations where he does have to make a read, it almost appears as if he didn't have to at all.

The greatest strength of campy Sonic isn't that he's an unassailable wall, it's that he PISSES PEOPLE OFF. Gets them antsy. You could say that a character shouldn't operate this way, but I think that's a very subjective matter.

You have good points, though some of are slightly incorrect.

First of all, Homing Attack has way too much endlag and knockback to grant any sorts of followups on hit.

Second, while you're correct in that he ignores neutral, he does in the expense of not being able to play the neutral very well.

Otherwise, you're pretty much spot-on.

 

[EternalFlare]

I think it's a mistake to say hat Sonic has an auto-pilot neutral. He has an incredible neutral, yes. One might even say that he "ignores neutral," as has been argued in the past, and that he often has an edge over slower characters if they do not have a way to throw out lingering hitboxes like Ike does.

But if you look at the way Komorikiri plays (and I think it's safe to call him the best Sonic currently), it's less spin dash and its hitboxes that makes him strong, and more spin dash CANCEL. That spin dash cancel is basically trying to psych the opponent out constantly, get them to freak out and commit unnecessarily. And in Smash land, many players are accustomed to just throwing out strong hitboxes and winning neutral that way.

Sonic has two main assets on his side. First, he has incredible speed, which translates to the ability to punish things from a further distance than any other character in the game. Second, is that his moveset is incredibly deceptive all around. F-smash lets him lean back and beat out attacks. Homing Attack slams into the ground but allows for an immediate follow-up. Spin Dash cancel does what it does, and I don't think it's an accident that both it and Spin Charge look so similar. This deception is to the point that it actually masks his moments of vulnerability, which is what I think soniczx123 is talking about. Sonic can get away with a lot of things, but he makes you think he can get away with a lot more than he actually can. He still has to make reads and predictions just like any other character, he just has more situations where that's less necessary, and as a result in situations where he does have to make a read, it almost appears as if he didn't have to at all.

The greatest strength of campy Sonic isn't that he's an unassailable wall, it's that he PISSES PEOPLE OFF. Gets them antsy. You could say that a character shouldn't operate this way, but I think that's a very subjective matter.

Well the way I see it spin dash cancelling isn't super effective because of fear or frustration alone. That would imply it's a very punishable option people are simply scared to challenge. But spin dash cancelling is very low committal and makes people over commit because...you kind of have to. Spin dash isn't a move you can realistically out space or react to as discussed earlier. So you have 3 options:

1. You pick a character that can force Sonic to constantly approach in predictable ways.
2. You pick a high mobility character that has a realistic chance of interrupting spin dash startups.
3. You throw out pre-emptive moves hoping to intercept Sonic even though the chance is low and the risk is medium-high.

Most people choose option 3 because they aren't playing a character that has option 1 or 2. So they may look wild and impatient as they are throwing out random hitboxes but they don't have much choice, it's either that or Sonic times them out.

 

[Nobie]

You have good points, though some of are slightly incorrect.

First of all, Homing Attack has way too much endlag and knockback to grant any sorts of followups on hit.

Second, while you're correct in that he ignores neutral, he does in the expense of not being able to play the neutral very well.

Otherwise, you're pretty much spot-on.

Oh, I should have specified, I meant not "follow-ups after successfully hitting" but rather "the ability to act out of Homing Attack after it misses."

I've brought this up before in the thread, but in a lot of other cases, when characters slam into the ground after doing a special attack (e.g. Fire Fox), that's often a signal to run in and do damage. With Sonic, however, he can usually act afterwards, and this discrepancy can throw people off or trick them into overcomitting.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Homing attack is def a bit more free then I would like.

He needs invincibility on spin dash imo. It IS obnoxious, but its the main thing that makes him functional and makes players respect him in neutral.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Oh, I should have specified, I meant not "follow-ups after successfully hitting" but rather "the ability to act out of Homing Attack after it misses."

I've brought this up before in the thread, but in a lot of other cases, when characters slam into the ground after doing a special attack (e.g. Fire Fox), that's often a signal to run in and do damage. With Sonic, however, he can usually act afterwards, and this discrepancy can throw people off or trick them into overcomitting.

I don't see the issue with this. Moves that "deceive" with surprisingly low endlag are nothing new nor are they exclusive to Sonic. Metaknight's fsmash, Ganondorf's upsmash, and to a lesser extent Cloud's limit cross slash all "invite" the opponent to punish a window that is sometimes impossible to punish. Just don't fall for baits and know the nuances of your opponent's kit.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

What game are you playing where homing attack has low end lag lol. Please go check your facts before posting bs. The move is super punishable. You're just not reacting properly.

 

[Ulevo]

Spot dodging Homing Attack leaves Sonic very open. You can also challenge it pretty easily because it is a predictable telegraphed trajectory. If more of Sonic's kit was like Homing Attack, he would not be such an issue.

 

[BananaBake]

https://twitter.com/TrueRyuga/status/764345363247554560

Yay more MM footstool combos

 

[ARGHETH]

https://twitter.com/TrueRyuga/status/764345363247554560

Sakurai you made this game more busted than Melee

Isn't this just another Megaman footstool combo? If you didn't think the game was busted after Kamemushi's run at EVO, then you're not going to think it is with this.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Sometimes I feel as though I'm the only one who actually enjoys playing against Sonic. Don't get me wrong, I understand how painful it can be playing as a slower character, but when the MU is manageable I find a lot of enjoyment in it. You just need to understand the character. A few things that helped me out:

• If Sonic uses Dair, there are two options: (1) the move autocancels in which case there is no hitbox to hurt you or (2) the move still has a hitbox and Sonic undergoes 38 frames of endlag. Do not be afraid to challenge Sonic if you notice him abusing AC dair.
• After using Spring Jump (up B), Sonic's options are rather limited. He's confined strictly to airdodge and attack (and of course fast fall). He cannot use a special until landing, and I'm 99% sure he can't use a double jump. Although if Sonic uses Spring Jump, then falls down and lands on the spring again, he is free to do anything this time around, including another up B.
• Spin dash can only be shield cancelled (aka "The Wrath") during the first few frames, after that he has commit to that option.
• Sonic CAN be grabbed out of spindash while stationary or in motion. Mobile characters with good pivot grabs excel at punishing a player who relies on spindash.
• His aerials have a significant amounts of landing lag. Seriously, take a look at the numbers.
• Whiffed homing attack is punishable. This strictly applies if Sonic strikes the ground, NOT your shield. For once in your life JUST ROLL.
• Learn to DI/tech Dthrow or you'll end up eating a lot of damage.
• Sonic does not fall fast, keep him in the air.
• Sonic can actually have some trouble killing if you aren't easily telegraphed.
• soniczx123 Phoenix_Dark is this all right? if there's any misinformation here please alert me so that I can fix it.

I know your pain. Or I did- but when I sat down and took the time to understand the character, I found that he had a lot more weaknesses (both inherent and exploitable) than I thought. Seriously, if you want to know more about a character, play them for a little while. I don't care how "lame" you think he is, swallow your pride; if you're serious about learning and improving, experience is the strongest tool.

And I know some of you are urging to remind me "but the MU with X character v Sonic is horrible". Then switch characters, pick up a secondary. Sonic isn't oppressing you, you are.

 

[Sleek Media]

I dunno what y'all are smokin. E EternalFlare is right on the money. Sonic is a pain in the ass because every game against him is five straight minutes of:

1) Shielding spin dashes you won't be punishing
2) Throwing out hitboxes in a half-panicked attempt to catch him when he allows you to get close
3) A horribly disadvantaged game of cat & mouse when he gets ahead and decides to camp

Even with Mega Man, who is supposed to be one of Sonic's worst MU's, a set takes so much out of you because if you make one slip up, it's 30%, and once he gets ahead of a slow character, you can forget about it. Win or lose, I always hated fighting him. It's just not fun or interesting.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But if you look at the way Komorikiri plays (and I think it's safe to call him the best Sonic currently), it's less spin dash and its hitboxes that makes him strong, and more spin dash CANCEL. That spin dash cancel is basically trying to psych the opponent out constantly, get them to freak out and commit unnecessarily. And in Smash land, many players are accustomed to just throwing out strong hitboxes and winning neutral that way.

... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we have a winner, ladies and gentlemen!

Also take note of where and when Komorikiri uses Spin Dash in neutral. Watch his two sets against Kie or his old set against Ally - when he charges spin dash he's almost always close enough to directly punish a whiff but far away enough to be outside of his opponents' characters burst zones. Pretty powerful if done right but there are ways to deal with it.

 

[Nobie]

So I was probably confusing Sonic's homing attack on hitting the ground vs. it hitting shield, and you can't act out of the move quite as early as I remembered. However, you can still act out of it a bit quicker than the visual cue indicates.

What I mean is that, if you watch a move like Fire Fox, which can also involve bouncing off the ground, Fox will hit the floor, bounce, and then continue to fall, finally going into a landing animation.

Sonic hits the floor, bounces, and then can throw out a nair shortly before landing.

So the move is more vulnerable than I recalled, but still has a bit of deception.

 

[soniczx123]

So I was probably confusing Sonic's homing attack on hitting the ground vs. it hitting shield, and you can't act out of the move quite as early as I remembered. However, you can still act out of it a bit quicker than the visual cue indicates.

What I mean is that, if you watch a move like Fire Fox, which can also involve bouncing off the ground, Fox will hit the floor, bounce, and then continue to fall, finally going into a landing animation.

Sonic hits the floor, bounces, and then can throw out a nair shortly before landing.

So the move is more vulnerable than I recalled, but still has a bit of deception.

He bounces on the floor within a certain distance, otherwise he just lands. Even bounce from shield has enough endlag to allow no followups.

EDIT: just tested it. You can throw a nair, but the hitbox doesn't become active before you have to land again. The bounce isn't high enough to allow that.

 

[Pancracio17]

Spot dodging Homing Attack leaves Sonic very open. You can also challenge it pretty easily because it is a predictable telegraphed trajectory. If more of Sonic's kit was like Homing Attack, he would not be such an issue.

If sonics kit was like homing attack, he would be bad.

 

[soniczx123]

If sonics kit was like homing attack, he would be bad.

I think that's what he meant.

Sometimes I feel as though I'm the only one who actually enjoys playing against Sonic. Don't get me wrong, I understand how painful it can be playing as a slower character, but when the MU is manageable I find a lot of enjoyment in it. You just need to understand the character. A few things that helped me out:

• If Sonic uses Dair, there are two options: (1) the move autocancels in which case there is no hitbox to hurt you or (2) the move still has a hitbox and Sonic undergoes 38 frames of endlag. Do not be afraid to challenge Sonic if you notice him abusing AC dair.
• After using Spring Jump (up B), Sonic's options are rather limited. He's confined strictly to airdodge and attack (and of course fast fall). He cannot use a special until landing, and I'm 99% sure he can't use a double jump. Although if Sonic uses Spring Jump, then falls down and lands on the spring again, he is free to do anything this time around, including another up B.
• Spin dash can only be shield cancelled (aka "The Wrath") during the first few frames, after that he has commit to that option.
• Sonic CAN be grabbed out of spindash while stationary or in motion. Mobile characters with good pivot grabs excel at punishing a player who relies on spindash.
• His aerials have a significant amounts of landing lag. Seriously, take a look at the numbers.
• Whiffed homing attack is punishable. This strictly applies if Sonic strikes the ground, NOT your shield. For once in your life JUST ROLL.
• Learn to DI/tech Dthrow or you'll end up eating a lot of damage.
• Sonic does not fall fast, keep him in the air.
• Sonic can actually have some trouble killing if you aren't easily telegraphed.
• soniczx123 Phoenix_Dark is this all right? if there's any misinformation here please alert me so that I can fix it.

I know your pain. Or I did- but when I sat down and took the time to understand the character, I found that he had a lot more weaknesses (both inherent and exploitable) than I thought. Seriously, if you want to know more about a character, play them for a little while. I don't care how "lame" you think he is, swallow your pride; if you're serious about learning and improving, experience is the strongest tool.

And I know some of you are urging to remind me "but the MU with X character v Sonic is horrible". Then switch characters, pick up a secondary. Sonic isn't oppressing you, you are.

All your points are correct. I would just like to add that Spin Charge (Down-B) is a fully commitment as it can not be shield cancelled at all.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I often think fighting Sonic is the equivalent of a mental test and how long you can take his BS. I personally don't find Sonic as irritating as a lot of people do (that probably has to do with the fact that I used to main Sonic in the early days of the meta), but he is still a nuisance. I'm not saying that if you're annoyed by fighting Sonic you're mentally weak, but it's clear that it takes a lot out of you. Can you imagine if Sonic quipped every time you missed an attack and he gets 30% from a Spin Dash? Controllers will be broken left and right.

Sleek Media Megs is one of Sonic's tougher MUs, but the same principles of it being a mental test still apply. It's also an MU that you need to be extremely focused on seeing as how Sonic likes to toy with the opponent.

I apologize if I sound like an uninformed moron to anyone here, but after reading the discussion on Sonic, I felt like chiming in my own comparison. A lot of players I see hate Sonic, let alone fighting him, and I feel that it has to do with his play style of being a hit and run character.

 

[Murlough]

Do Sonics ever even use down-b anymore? I can't remember seeing it used recently, if ever.

The invincibility of side-b makes down-b seem completely pointless. The only thing down-b has, that I know of, is a hitbox when Sonic jumps in the spinning state which is still basically useless unless I missed something.

 

[C0rvus]

iirc Spin Charge has a better Spinshot attached to it. It's also a mixup because Spin Charge is a grounded mulithit move when it typically hits a shield. Braking on someone's shield can do good shield damage and it isn't the crossup your opponent may be typically expecting from the usual Spin Dash pressure. Though you can go into a crossup, or jump over your opponent entirely.

Therein lies Spin Dash's strength; you can mix up what you do to your opponent quite a bit.

 

[soniczx123]

Do Sonics ever even use down-b anymore? I can't remember seeing it used recently, if ever.

The invincibility of side-b makes down-b seem completely pointless. The only thing down-b has, that I know of, is a hitbox when Sonic jumps in the spinning state which is still basically useless unless I missed something.

Of course it still has it uses lmao. It's weaker knockback allows for more consistent combos at higher percentage, allow for a few setups on and will beat projectiles at full charge or trade at the least.

 

[Yoshister]

If sonics kit was like homing attack, he would be bad.

Same thing really.


Imo Spindash needs the early invincibility in order to be nearly as good as it is.

Compare it to 's Clown Kart Dash. It's a very similar move (With safer Jump canceling, the ability to Jump cancel without a double jump, and use it as a direct attack with the skid) and similar uses.

It'd be a phenomenal move if it wasn't beaten by any projectile in the game, making it pretty eh a decent amount of the time.

 

[soniczx123]

Same thing really.


Imo Spindash needs the early invincibility in order to be nearly as good as it is.

Compare it to 's Clown Kart Dash. It's a very similar move (With safer Jump canceling, the ability to Jump cancel without a double jump, and use it as a direct attack with the skid) and similar uses.

It'd be a phenomenal move if it wasn't beaten by any projectile in the game, making it pretty eh a decent amount of the time.

Don't forget that the entire cart is a disjoint, while Sonic attacks with his full body.

 

[Yoshister]

Don't forget that the entire cart is a disjoint, while Sonic attacks with his full body.

Can't believe I forgot to mention that.

Oops.

I would much rather have some invincibility frames over some disjoint that doesn't come into play that often though.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

This characters moves have mostly worked the same since brawl. How are people still this misinformed? Homing attack is unsafe even on shield. Most characters can react with an aerial before sonic can get away. At best, he spring jumps, but then he's floating in the air, asking to be punished. As for these other characters with "similar properties" to homing attacks ending, those moves should never even be used in that manner. Hell, fox's up b auto cancels at the correct height. Homing attack has a set amount of end lag regardless of what he does with it. The only time that changes is when it ledge cancels which can't be forced, because sonic doesn't control where homing attack goes. That's completely up to the opponent.

Down b (spin charge) isn't a full commitment. If that was the case, that would mean he only would have one option (spinning forward). He can stop tapping to let the spin die out if he has enough space, or he can jump out of it while charging. Spin charge and spin dash both have a hitbox when jumping out of the charge that is good for catching people trying to jump over sonic.

As for basic uses, down b flat out punishes better because there's no hop at the start, so it gets there first. Side b is for when people try to jump in with moves, since there's brief invincibility on the hop. Down b is for punishing options done in front of sonic (trying to wall out with aerials, holding jabs, etc.) It also sets up fsj traps easier because of less or more predictable kb. Forget which it is.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This characters moves have mostly worked the same since brawl.

There's a noticeable difference with Spin Dash regardless. In smash 4 it has a bigger hitbox compared to his opponent's hitboxes than in Brawl. In Brawl I could just auto-jab with characters like Snake or Mario - Sonic's spindash would always either clash [leaving Sonic at a frame disadvantage] or straight-up lose and eat the whole jab string for free. In smash 4 that's no longer the case because the hitbox on Sonic's Spin Dash is no longer small enough to have that happen except some special cases like Mac or Palutena or something. That's probably the biggest reason why Sonic is so much better in smash 4 than in Brawl: because Spin Dash is actually a relevant option now. That and the dramatic buff to fsmash.

 

[Ethan7]

dramatic buff to fsmash

What is the dramatic buff to f-smash? It has only 3 more KBG, but increased endlag. Is there something not noted on SmashWiki like a range buff or something?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What is the dramatic buff to f-smash? It has only 3 more KBG, but increased endlag. Is there something not noted on SmashWiki like a range buff or something?

It's the same difference as with Spin Dash basically. It's relative range and hitbox size is bigger than in Brawl where it was easy to outrange it, which is pretty bad for a move that's not very hard to intercept due to its slow startup. If you tried to challenge it head-on with a long ranged aerial in Brawl you had a pretty good chance at beating it because you'd either hit him before the hitbox becomes active or you outrange it. Try doing the same thing in smash 4 and you'll take the fsmash and get rekt.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Sonic Fsmash was fairly large in Brawl too. It could beat an air Mach Tornado outright in the air, and clank with Mach Tornado scooting along the ground.

The difference in this game comes with the increase in shieldstun in the game both pre and post patch. I think Fsmash was only -2 on block when the game came out?

 

[>Metα<]

Cloud and Mario, are you seriously right now?? Both of them possess great air speed, allowing them to traverse in the air to easily mixup their landing. Mario got the cape for stalling and Cloud got dair covering his entire bottom. Rosa has Luma as a guardian, so commiting against her without the correct spacing is deadly. Other than Fox falling really fast, i'm not too informed in his landing options so I can't comment on that.

>Metα< Could you enlighten us on Fox's landing options??

You don't even need to grab, but the option is there. The easiest thing to is either beat it with a hitbox or take it on shield and punish Sonics options afterward, which I have said before, are severely limited.

Fox is very limited when it comes to landing. Either you fast fall back down or you stall by using shine. The first time or two, the opponent won't expect the shine so they will usually whiff an aerial where they expected you to be. Bair is an option as it has the best ac frames and is a good way to safely throw out a hitbox while you land.

EDIT: Forgot to mention double jump, but that's a thing.

 

[DavemanCozy]

>Metα< Could you enlighten us on Fox's landing options??

I'll add to what Meta said:

While Fox being a fast faller is problematic when he gets juggled, he's not totally screwed and it's not necessarily a bad thing either. You know how, when you use a special move that cancels your momentum, if you use said special move after being knocked in the air, your character kinda hovers up and away a little bit? I'm not familiar with terms used for this game; Anyways, this is very noticeable with Fox because he has Illusion, Fire-Fox, and Reflector (shine), all which make him hover slightly upwards when he uses it in the air while in hitstun, which can throw off the timing of edge-guard, juggle or landing if your opponent isn't prepared for the adjustment.

EternalFlare is not fully incorrect about Shine being "too laggy to be reliable;" you can't act out of it until frame 34 after releasing, but the halt in the air does help Fox delay his landing. It is useful if an opponent overcommits to their juggle chase, but I don't think it should ever be used as a landing option unless you predict something like a Sheik throwing a needle from far away to catch your landing.

Aside from B-air, N-air and D-air are two moves Fox can put out to land or break out of a juggle, and they can convert to Fox's juggles. Typically the safer option would be N-air because of less landing lag. Because Fox falls fast, another landing option is to simply land and do something like Meta said, like if an opponent is shielding expecting you to throw N-air Fox can just land beside the opponent and grab for example. And he also has an air-dodge, which isn't the best option to land with in this game but can help him situationally.

Edit: and yes, double jump if Fox has it is helpful because his vertical air speed lets him rise fast. Though it can fire back if the opponent predicts it, because then you have no jump left until you land.

To escape juggles and to land, Fox needs to make a prediction; from there, it'll be the player who guessed right that will typically have the advantage. In summary, Fox has unreliable landing options and getting juggled easily while being a lightweight is never fun; but that's been a Fox staple ever since Smash came into existence, and I would never change that since that would destroy the way he currently plays.

Technically you can do things out of Fox's side B too but not until much later, you'll likely land with massive lag long before then.

"Massive landing lag" on Fox's air Illusion is an exaggeration. He suffers like ~16 frames of landing lag from air Illusion; it's not great, but it's certainly not awful either, especially considering the move lets you travel decent distance and Fox falls faster than everyone. It's not like an SH > Illusion is that safe in the first place, it is linear and can be punished if predicted properly, whether you interrupt it with a hitbox or if you run back and hit him where he lands. But that's if it is predicted; it's still an option Fox has to escape a juggle or to land, and the hitbox can also cut off an opponent chasing his landing.

I also don't understand this "2hard2react2" stuff you keep going on about. When someone makes a read, it's not a reaction; it's a prediction. That's the core to playing a neutral game in Smash Bros and in just about any other fighting game. There are far more things in this game besides Sonic that require involvement in the match to predict what the opponent will do; we all engage in this mental battle with our opponents at some level, regardless of the character they pick.

 

[Ffamran]

What is the dramatic buff to f-smash? It has only 3 more KBG, but increased endlag. Is there something not noted on SmashWiki like a range buff or something?

3 growth can make a lot of difference, especially on moves that do ~13%. Consider that Falco's Up Smash's second hit used to have 98 growth pre-1.1.4 and KO'd around 140%. Now, it KOs around 130%. Not really impressive, but that's a 10% difference and on a hit that does 12%. Imagine what it would do with a move that does 14%. On the flipside, using Falco again because this happened to him, Uair used to have 27 base and 100 growth, but now it has 35 base and 90 growth. Pre-1.0.8 Uair did 11% which also helped with it being able to KO from the ground and center stage of Final Destination at 162%. Now, with its weirder hit angles, it KOs at 194% with the legs and 175% with the body -- helps that the body has a 85 degree hit angle. I tried messing around with knockback using SpaceJam's calculator and both the leg hits of pre- and post-1.0.8 do 205 total knockback. If you dropped pre-1.0.8 damage to 10%, it could potentially KO at 177%. Yeah.

Think of it this way, 100 growth is the baseline growth. If you drop it lower or increase it, then it's no longer the base growth. You'd only do that for specific reasons like for moves that do above 16% to stop them from being crazy, for finishers of multi-hits since you want them to send people flying, or for moves like parts jabs since you don't want them to do a lot of knockback or sometimes for late hits. It's tricky too since you can look at Fox's Up Smash and the growth is only 6 off from 100, but Fox's Up Smash is known for KO'ing at around 100%. Or something like Ryu's Shoryuken who has low growth, but very high angle, base, and damage that it easily can KO under 100%. Knockback can be heavily affected by what seems like minor numbers.

The other thing which is kind of universal is the removal of momentum canceling can be considered a dramatic buff to all moves, especially KO moves. Fox's Uair is largely unchanged from Brawl to Smash 4, but in Brawl, according to SSBwiki, it used to KO at 140%, but it's more likely to KO at 110% in Smash 4. Changes in SDI probably help too since I kind of remember people saying Brawl Fox's Uair was easily SDI-able despite it having x1.0 multipliers in both Brawl and Smash 4. Definitely hear about Melee Fox's Uair being SDI-able.

EternalFlare is not fully incorrect about Shine being "too laggy to be reliable;" you can't act out of it until frame 34 after releasing, but the halt in the air does help Fox delay his landing. It is useful if an opponent overcommits to their juggle chase, but I don't think it should ever be used as a landing option unless you predict something like a Sheik throwing a needle from far away to catch your landing.

"Massive landing lag" on Fox's air Illusion is an exaggeration. He suffers like ~16 frames of landing lag from air Illusion; it's not great, but it's certainly not awful either, especially considering the move lets you travel decent distance and Fox falls faster than everyone. It's not like an SH > Illusion is that safe in the first place, it is linear and can be punished if predicted properly, whether you interrupt it with a hitbox or if you run back and hit him where he lands. But that's if it is predicted; it's still an option Fox has to escape a juggle or to land, and the hitbox can also cut off an opponent chasing his landing.

Fun fact if I remember correctly: Melee and Smash 4 Fox's Reflector have the about same total frames, so around 40 frames, and therefore, similar 34-ish recovery. Difference? Melee's was jump-cancellable at any time unlike Smash 4 where you have to reflect something. Meanwhile in Brawl, where it had 28? total frames, so 25 recovery frames. Man, I miss the days in Brawl where you could jump in the air and repeatedly use Reflector to hover in the air as Fox.

For Fox Illusion and technically Falco Phantasm, I don't think they have landing lag anymore since there isn't a freefall animation. Why they have lower recovery when used out of a hop is unknown and I don't think anyone has checked to see if it was true. Technically, Fox Illusion should always have 49 -- 45 if you count the 5 active frames -- frames of recovery regardless if you used it on the ground or in the air. Aerial Phantasm has the same 49 recovery too, but slightly lower 43 when used on the ground. Inexplicably, they're both said to have lower recovery when used from a hop.