Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TheGoodGuava]

Link can zone her just as effectively as Lucas can and is also one of the few characters that can effectively edgeguard her, yet hes a 65:35? I really do think the Bayonetta players have Esam syndrome.

 

[C0rvus]

Most Bayo matchup charts I've encountered have Link as nearly even, sometimes even as a slight loss. Bayonetta cannot abuse his poor CQC and his midrange game and zoning keep her on her toes. Definitely just Saj lacking experience or sleeping on a mediocre character. At top level things could be different, but do we have top level Links in the US? I doubt Saj has played Sova, Scizor, or Hyrule Hero, even.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Admittedly on paper Bayonetta seems amazing:

1. Best combo game. I don't think this is debatable until people start SDIing and even then I doubt it's possible during the middle of her combos everytime. As of now, it's not rare for Bayonetta to get 40-60 everytime she gets in even against top players. And not just at low percents which is an extremely rare thing in Smash 4.
Plumbers, Fox, Ryu, Sheik, etc.
Her combos are godlike but it's too easy to escape WT1 and ABK for her to have the best combo game. 40-60 on getting in is honestly a gross exaggeration.

2. One of the best recoveries. She has way too many good options. Honestly it's arguable her recovery is even better than Sheiks as even Sheik can't go as deep as Bayonetta can.
Not better than Sheik's, as it requires a DJ from deep and can actually be challenged with disjoints and projectiles.

3. Great landing options with several momentum shifting moves + witch time.
No disagreement here.
4. Great edge guarding capabilities (easily top 5 in the game at this imo).
Agreedm
5. Witch time is probably hands down the best move in the game. With no other move do you lose a
stock at 80 without rage because you threw out ANY attack including a jab while in advantage. Other similar moves require a long charge. Ryu's TSRK also is similar except it's weaker in the air and you have to be right next to him to get sweet spotted. If you can outrange him or are below him, it's not an issue. But Witch time is always a major threat at close quarters and can lead into just as early kills if not earlier.
best move in the game? WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree
Sure Bayonetta doesn't have the best neutral. But this is more than made up by her damage output. She doesn't need many openings to close out a stock because of this

She doesn't actually have many safe killing options that can't easily be played around.

Thoughts in quote.

 

[Ethan7]

Here's a question, has this been already posted here?

"Lucina is 29 spaces lower than Marth."
"Wait, how come?"
"She has less range-"

These memes need to die pic.twitter.com/Bne5aiGAt6

— Jonty 🇵🇸 (@Skarfelt_) July 7, 2016

If not, well
guess we don't need any more proof.

Looks like Lucina is the same height as Marth, at least in that pose. There may be a difference in range in other moves, but I doubt it.

 

[mountain_tiger]

5. Witch time is probably hands down the best move in the game. With no other move do you lose a
stock at 80 without rage because you threw out ANY attack including a jab while in advantage. Other similar moves require a long charge. Ryu's TSRK also is similar except it's weaker in the air and you have to be right next to him to get sweet spotted. If you can outrange him or are below him, it's not an issue. But Witch time is always a major threat at close quarters and can lead into just as early kills if not earlier.

Best move in the game? Definitely not.

In fact, I'd like to take this opportunity to say that I believe that counterattacks in general are very overrated in this game. Don't get me wrong, they're a useful tool to have (for reasons like those you stated here), but it's high-risk high-reward because generally your opponent can stuff you up badly if it fails.

On a personal level I'd say that Witch Time is only slightly above average when compared to other counters.

 

[EternalFlare]

Thoughts in quote.

If it's so easy to escape her combos why do they work all the time against top players? People have been saying this since Esam's video where he was buffering SDI knowing exactly which move was coming but in actual play you don't have that luxury.

SDI is limited in the game and you'd have to have been buffering the inputs before you started getting hit. Once you are in, her combos look pretty guaranteed.

40-60 is not an exaggeration. Go watch pretty much any top Bayos. Go watch Pink Fresh vs Mars for instance.

Also Ryu doesn't have as good of a combo game as far as damage racking goes. His main combos only work at low percents, then after that he gets extended up tilt and nair stuff but only on certain characters, on a lot of others they don't work at all. More importantly his combos heavily depend on the opponent getting hit while grounded. He has dtilt/jab1 to TSRK which will work at any percent but that's for killing, not for damage racking and is still dependant on the oppponet doing something heavily punishable right next to you.

Same goes for Sheik. Her strings don't do nearly as much damage and stop working at higher percents entirely. She gets some extended stuff on stages like Smashville with platforms but other than that, she's not amazing at combos in general.

Bayonetta on the other hand combos pretty much everyone hard, long after Ryu and Sheik are able to and whether they are grounded, in the air, offstage etc.

Best move in the game? Definitely not.

In fact, I'd like to take this opportunity to say that I believe that counterattacks in general are very overrated in this game. Don't get me wrong, they're a useful tool to have (for reasons like those you stated here), but it's high-risk high-reward because generally your opponent can stuff you up badly if it fails.

On a personal level I'd say that Witch Time is only slightly above average when compared to other counters.

Witch time is not a regular counter. You don't understand it at all if you think it's only slightly better than normal.

Compared to other counters it has a high amount of active frames, low ending lag and propells Bayo backwards. Which means unless you were right next to her and extremely ready, you aren't punishing it at all, let alone well.

Not only this but with other counters their power is dependant on the move they countered. If you just throw out weak moves, you have no chance of dying to other counters. With Witch time however it doesn't matter what you threw out, if you used any attack, you die at low percents.

This effectively makes it low risk-extremely high reward in most situations.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I'm pretty sure "Lucina is shorter and therefore has slightly less range than Marth" has been a thing for a long time.

At this point, I don't think you can get away with ranking her that much lower than him in a hypothetical tier list. They're fairly close to each other.

I want to agree with that statement but Marth is generally seen higher up on hypothetical tier lists, to say Lucina isn't too far behind him would be to put her in that mid-high range, for a character with very little representation I feel if she was that good she would be played a lot more. Of course this isn't a definitive statement people sleep on characters all the time especially in a game with such a large roster. I suppose it will take a top level player using her more to really showcase this but I don't know of any really good players that use her often.

What is Lucina's kill confirm game like? I'm genuinely asking as I don't know alot about the character. Does she have to fish for kills or does she have a few some what reliable ways of killing? I assume the Marth set ups aren't as good since they don't kill as early.

 

[C0rvus]

She has little representation at a relevant level simply because Marth is the same character but a bit better. A player with a proper competitive mindset should really be playing him instead. Doesn't make her bad.

She does have nair1 > fsmash, though. That's pretty nice.

 

[blackghost]

Why does he believe that Link is such a 65:35 match up, whereas Toon Link is even? I doubt the gap is that large.

movement speed makes a huge difference.
and no witch time isn't the best move in the game. bouncing fish or banana I think or Luma upair.

 

[soniczx123]

Why does he believe that Link is such a 65:35 match up, whereas Toon Link is even? I doubt the gap is that large.

The huge increase in mobility and access to more kill confirms along with being floaty changes things up alot.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

@Das Koopa Lets not get distracted by Umebura and endgame today for the most part , there is also a decently stacked florida monthly with big names in florida like day and prince ramen. This tournament has 173 entrants as well. EDIT: Sorry i screwed up it has 85 entrants, still has names from FL however

Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/polaritygg2
Bracket: https://smash.gg/tournament/polarity-presents-unrivaled-a-monthly-series/brackets/14943/55112/180713

 

[Rizen]

Why does he believe that Link is such a 65:35 match up, whereas Toon Link is even? I doubt the gap is that large.

what i get out of the mu from link's perspective is bayo has good reach and mid range tools that screw up link's preferred zoning range. she can combo at close range and link is combo food, plus her burst options to transition from mid to close range are great. bayo has a much better risk/reward ratio than link. bat within sucks for link too since he has many chains that are frame traps/easy reads but not true combos.
bayo has the advantage but it's not 65/35 bad, imo.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Link can zone her just as effectively as Lucas can and is also one of the few characters that can effectively edgeguard her, yet hes a 65:35? I really do think the Bayonetta players have Esam syndrome.

Yeah the top bayo players are nutty, we obviously lose to more than one mu. Lucas, Sonic, Marth, Diddy, Tink, Mario, and possibly Corrin.

That being said, I do think we win against Link, but only like 55:45, and no, he can't effectively edgeguard us, either.

 

[blackghost]

I will also say certain characters have combo escape options or even reversals on bayo vertical and horizontal carries greninja and Marth abd ryu come to mind immediately.
the issue is how relevant is that to the MU?
personally I still think many players don't play the MU correctly agianst bayo. bad di and a lack of punishing her endlag is still too common.
even as bayo has a good mu chart her awful mu agianst Diddy and even fight on Mario is going to impact her results a lot I think

 

[FamilyTeam]

I want to agree with that statement but Marth is generally seen higher up on hypothetical tier lists, to say Lucina isn't too far behind him would be to put her in that mid-high range, for a character with very little representation I feel if she was that good she would be played a lot more. Of course this isn't a definitive statement people sleep on characters all the time especially in a game with such a large roster. I suppose it will take a top level player using her more to really showcase this but I don't know of any really good players that use her often.

What is Lucina's kill confirm game like? I'm genuinely asking as I don't know alot about the character. Does she have to fish for kills or does she have a few some what reliable ways of killing? I assume the Marth set ups aren't as good since they don't kill as early.

The classics are SH Nair 1>Side Smash (true after 60-80%) and SH DB 1>Nair 1>Side Smash (true after about 90%). Really good confirms and due to Lucina's very strong Side Smash, they can kill very early, and pretty much as soon as they start working if at the ledge.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Since there's no real big discussion atm I figure I may as well post my Sheik MU chart.
A few people have asked for my opinion on some of her matchups lately so this should give a good general pictures.
There are some issues, like there being MUs that are between the tiers(i.e Sheik MK/MM isn't quite 7:3 but is worse than 6:4) and MUs that change depending on whether you know most of the character interactions well.
and, well, yeah. I still think this character is stupid so here you go

Spoiler: Ban Sheik.

 

[EternalFlare]

Since there's no real big discussion atm I figure I may as well post my Sheik MU chart.
A few people have asked for my opinion on some of her matchups lately so this should give a good general pictures.
There are some issues, like there being MUs that are between the tiers(i.e Sheik MK isn't quite 7:3 but is worse than 6:4) and MUs that change depending on whether you know most of the character interactions well.
and, well, yeah. I still think this character is stupid so here you go

Spoiler: Ban Sheik.

View attachment 115869

What's your reasoning for MK losing significantly to Sheik? MK Leo has yet to drop a set to Mr.R when going MK even after the nerfs and they've played several times. Yeah he loses in neutral but that's not everything. Advantage is definitely in MK's favour in the matchup. Sheik despite being light is somewhat a fastfaller letting her get comboed for days. Plus MK's recovery is great so he doesn't have to worry about aggro Sheik offstage.

You state Mewtwo is the only losing matchup Sheik has and I suspect the disparity in reliable kill power is a huge reason. Well isn't this also the case with MK? He's going to kill Sheik a lot earlier and more reliably than the other way around.




In other news Trela just lost to Xane, an MK player in pools. The matchup is not considered bad for Ryu. I personally think it's even.

So how many times does Ryu's best rep by far have to underperform before people admit Ryu is overrated and definitely not top 10?

 

[Ghostbone]

Why does he believe that Link is such a 65:35 match up, whereas Toon Link is even? I doubt the gap is that large.

Because link is extremely slow, easy to combo because he's big, easy to witch time, easy to edgeguard, etc.

Toon Link gives Bayo a very hard time in neutral and is small and floaty, so he escapes stuff easily.

Completely different characters, one has obvious traits that make the matchup awful (link), the other has various advantages in the matchup (and other disadvantages so it's close to even)


I've played Mr. R's Link in the matchup (1.1.5, but still), you guys know that witch twist goes through link's dair right, he really can't edgeguard her.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Advantage is definitely in MK's favour in the matchup.

it's not 2008.

 

[EternalFlare]

it's not 2008.

Let me put it another way. MK Leo has lost to Ally twice. He's lost to Larry. He's lost to Zero.

Thus this isn't the case of a player being way better than everyone else and that being the only reason for his success.

So the fact that he has NEVER lost to Mr.R when playing as MK despite playing him several times speaks volumes. If the matchup was that bad, we should be seeing evidence of it.

Sheik dominates neutral, MK dominates the punish game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

"But...But...Ryu has THE DAMAGE!!!!!!"

*rolls eyes

 

[FeelMeUp]

Let me put it another way. MK Leo has lost to Ally twice. He's lost to Larry. He's lost to Zero.

Thus this isn't the case of a player being way better than everyone else and that being the only reason for his success.

So the fact that he has NEVER lost to Mr.R when playing as MK despite playing him several times speaks volumes. If the matchup was that bad, we should be seeing evidence of it.

Sheik dominates neutral, MK dominates the punish game.

it's annoying that i have to put it this way, but if sheiks played with needles and fair like M2 players did with Shadowball and Dtilt you wouldn't be making such ridiculous and ill informed statements like this.
camping at the edge with needles/fair is a strategy mk has no answers to
once he gets grabbed at low % he gets combo'd to the other side of the stage. getting grabbed at high % means he's getting ledge trapped(which it's stupid easy to do to MK, mind you).
i'm not writing up a wall of text on why this MU sucks for the second time in the past 2 weeks. go find the other one I made last week or so.

 

[Pancracio17]

it's annoying that i have to put it this way, but if sheiks played with needles and fair like M2 players did with Shadowball and Dtilt you wouldn't be making such ridiculous and ill informed statements like this.
camping at the edge with needles/fair is a strategy mk has no answers to
once he gets grabbed at low % he gets combo'd to the other side of the stage. getting grabbed at high % means he's getting ledge trapped(which it's stupid easy to do to MK, mind you).
i'm not writing up a wall of text on why this MU sucks for the second time in the past 2 weeks. go find the other one I made last week or so.

Can you find an example of a post patch shiek playing like this? Also your theory seems awefully reliant on the stage being fd

 

[FeelMeUp]

Can you find an example of a post patch shiek playing like this? Also your theory seems awefully reliant on the stage being fd

MK can't approach Sheik from anywhere but the front on BF and DL, as well. The only stage it doesn't work on is Lylat.
His aerial approach options don't net him strings/combos on proper DI. Nair dash attack may be a thing but postpatch you're not going to die off that. The only time he'll get rewarded for a jumpin approach is when:
A. The Sheik is dumb enough to let his butterknife fair reach them
B. The Sheik is dumb enough to jump when he's behind her and eats a bair lock
and no. I've watched most of the MK Sheik sets on YT and postpatch pretty much all of them are VoiD/Mr. R vs "X Meta Knight player"

 

[EternalFlare]

it's annoying that i have to put it this way, but if sheiks played with needles and fair like M2 players did with Shadowball and Dtilt you wouldn't be making such ridiculous and ill informed statements like this.
camping at the edge with needles/fair is a strategy mk has no answers to
once he gets grabbed at low % he gets combo'd to the other side of the stage. getting grabbed at high % means he's getting ledge trapped(which it's stupid easy to do to MK, mind you).
i'm not writing up a wall of text on why this MU sucks for the second time in the past 2 weeks. go find the other one I made last week or so.

MK combos Sheik really hard even offstage. So camping near the ledge doesn't save Sheik. The only difference is instead of up B being the combo ender, it's nair or bair.

What's stopping MK from not choosing to approach as well anyway? Needles? Those become irrelevant if he has platforms he can camp on.

At any rate, I've seen this strategy attempted by multiple different characters against MK Leo. It doesn't end well for them. MK would be irrelevant if this could actually shut him down.

Oh and also consider risk reward. Sheik corners herself. Now she has to hope MK doesn't get lucky with a random DA/Dash grab as she has no more space to retreat to. And MK will happily take countless fairs and needles just to get in once. As a cross stage fair won't even kill at 200 and grounded needles will never kill.

You use Mewtwo as an example but corner camping is way more effective with him. Because a fair from him will kill at respectable percents across stage as will dair. Players also have to respect random Shadow Ball and dash grab-up/back throw. But no one is scared to approach Sheik near the corner unless you're a character she can back throw into a gimp.

 

[FeelMeUp]

MK combos Sheik really hard even offstage. So camping near the ledge doesn't save Sheik. The only difference is instead of up B being the combo ender, it's nair or bair.
Meta Knight CANNOT string into uairs, nair, bair, or up b off of a Sheik at the ledge. Please don't make uninformed statements.
What's stopping MK from not choosing to approach as well anyway? Needles? Those become irrelevant if he has platforms he can camp on.
Yep. Camping when you're behind is a fantastic idea.
At any rate, I've seen this strategy attempted by multiple different characters against MK Leo. It doesn't end well for them. MK would be irrelevant if this could actually shut him down.
That's nice. We're talking about Sheik, though. Not multiple other characters.
Oh and also consider risk reward. Sheik corners herself. Now she has to hope MK doesn't get lucky with a random DA/Dash grab as she has no more space to retreat to. And MK will happily take countless fairs and needles just to get in once. As a cross stage fair won't even kill at 200 and grounded needles will never kill.
If you are in the corner DA and dash grab DOES NOT LEAD TO ANYTHING
That's the ENTIRE POINT of camping at the edge.
Sheik grabs his approach and bthrows him then either kills him offstage(which, yes, is ENTIRELY possible because his up b isn't invincible and he has to commit to jumps before the shuttle loop) or grabs him at the ledge from a ledge trap and kills him. I never want to knowledge drop this because people always want to whine when they hear new information, but at normal kill % at the edge Dthrow gives Sheik the old 50/50 back.
You use Mewtwo as an example but corner camping is way more effective with him. Because a fair from him will kill at respectable percents across stage as will dair. Players also have to respect random Shadow Ball and dash grab-up/back throw. But no one is scared to approach Sheik near the corner unless you're a character she can back throw into a gimp.
Shadow Ball+Dtilt isn't as effective as needles+Fair against MK. You don't often add Fair to M2's because unlike Sheik, he can't just throw it out and be completely safe at most ranges on both whiff and hit while continuing the threat of a combo.

Serious question. Not trying to insult your intelligence, but do you even play/study Sheik or Meta Knight?
You seem like you have no idea how either of the character's tools work and interact.

 

[EternalFlare]

Serious question. Not trying to insult your intelligence, but do you even play/study Sheik or Meta Knight?
You seem like you have no idea how either of the character's tools work and interact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzL7xp9yDvI

Watch this set before commenting again (second set). Early on Mr.R tries exactly what you described. It doesn't shut down MK. Every Sheik isn't an idiot except you, they've tried your strategy and it failed.

MK can use his fast roll to get behind Sheik in the corner and does in fact get combos at the corner because of it.

MK has multiple jumps and 4 different recovery moves, there's no way Sheik gimping him can ever be reliable.

And why are you assuming Sheik is always in the lead? What's stopping MK from getting a hit or two an then running away on platforms until Sheik approaches instead?

 

[FeelMeUp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzL7xp9yDvI

Watch this set before commenting again (second set). Early on Mr.R tries exactly what you described. It doesn't shut down MK. Every Sheik isn't an idiot except you, they've tried your strategy and it failed.
Already watched it and remember what happened. Mr. R did his special horrible habit, forward rolling when unnecessary, and fished for grabs then got punished for it. Had he used any real grounded button like jab or ftilt the situation would not have happened.
Next time you should point to someone actually doing it correctly. This is the equivalent of me walking up to you and saying "You can't abuse Diddy's horrible recovery. Look at this time that got read and punished. It doesn't work."

MK can use his fast roll to get behind Sheik in the corner and does in fact get combos at the corner because of it.
Roll forward grab and DA are both beaten by ftilt on reaction. Check the frame data if you don't believe me. It's entirely possible. Both options have identical data as well, even with instant DA.

MK has multiple jumps and 4 different recovery moves, there's no way Sheik gimping him can ever be reliable.
Nado isn't a recovery move.
MK players rarely use cape because you have to be stupid close to use it anyway.
Drill Rush has an EXTREMELY long startup and can be hit on reaction.
Shuttle Loop requires the MK to be low. Can't be challenge unless you already have a full clip of needles but I wasn't talking about Shuttle Loop in the first place.

And why are you assuming Sheik is always in the lead? What's stopping MK from getting a hit or two an then running away on platforms until Sheik approaches instead?
Err. It's Sheik. She has a better projectile and frame data than the majority of the cast. In almost every tourney set involving a decent to good Sheik they start the game in the lead. If you let MK get the first hit you're doing something wrong.

Discussing things with you feels like you nitpicking with small things that aren't even correct while I have to constantly remind you that what you pointed out isn't relevant/not what I said/won't work anyway.

 

[EternalFlare]

Discussing things with you feels like you nitpicking with small things that aren't even correct while I have to constantly remind you that what you pointed out isn't relevant/not what I said/won't work anyway.

So pointing out what happened in the actual match isn't correct?

Did or did MK Leo not roll behind Mr. R several times which invalidated the corner camp strategy? And is this not your entire argument for the matchup being terrible?

Punishing MK's roll on reaction? Let's see. It has 28 frames before FAF. Sweet! That's ages to react.

But wait it's not that simple. You have 6 frames iirc of native input lag in Smash 4 and another 5 for ftilt or rather 6 as you have to turn around first. So that leaves 16 frames. This is possible if you have average reaction time or better.

But in the midst of a match when trying to react to several different options it becomes that much harder. And keep in mind, this is assuming as Sheik you are doing NOTHING except waiting to react to the roll. If you have to drop shield first (7 more frames) or finish the frames of a current move, then it can become impossible.

And before you suggest just waiting, if you just stand there and wait for a roll to ftilt, you are susceptible to dash attack which comes out frame 7 (impossible to react to).

That's why MK and good player's in general get away with rolls so often, as long as they are mixed up well, they aren't something you can realistically punish on reaction everytime. In this set MK Leo got away with it several times.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

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Tier lists are allowed if explanations are provided, right? This isn't so much of a tier list as much as it is an ordering of who I perceive to be the top 20 of the cast, since everything below that becomes a bit of a mess of characters whom I know little about.

Spoiler: Explanation

S tier is where all of the most dominant and centralizing top tiers are. I put sheik as the best because her neutral game is incredible and her mobility, combo game, and frame data give her what I consider to be the most versatile and the most threatening kit in the entire game. Diddy has a similarly stellar neutral, combo game and even slightly better results, but I put him below because his matchup spread is slightly worse and he is more susceptible to character and stage counterpicks. All the other meta gods such as fox, mario, rosa etc. are present, although the ordering may not be agreed upon by all.

A tier is the second half of the top tier. Characters here are almost as good as the S tier but are less centralizing and have more matchup issues than those above them. Mewtwo is at the top of this group because his punish game is absolutely bonkers, but he's not quite worthy of S tier imo due to disappointing results and a bad matchup vs Diddy. Marth is one the rise thanks to representation from some good players and his spacing potential, kill power, neutral, and edgeguarding are surprisingly great.

B tier, the "high tier" contains the remaining of the top 20. Toon link has amazing camping, reliable kill setups and a good recovery, but his weak grab and bad matchups against fox and rosa hold him back. I know this thread isn't fond of Pikachu but he is pretty good all things considered. Decent matchups and combos, nice recovery and edgeguarding, but underwhelming kill power and results. Cfalcon did well at smash con, has actually a really nice matchup spread and has some scary tools, but he's combo food and prone to gimping. The pits have a solid matchup spread and are decent at like everything, but they don't have amazing or consistent kill setups and have average results. Villy has some stuff like a good Diddy matchup, an excellent zoning based neutral, crazy gimping potential, but Cloud and Rosa kind of **** all over him and he doesn't have great results outside of Ranai, who hasn't done much recently. Greninja has been very dormant results wise this summer and idk what's up with iStudyingt hese days, but I think Greninja still has a good enough punish game and mobility to justify top 20.

 

[Ulevo]

There are a lot of things that are incorrect being posted right now regarding Sheik vs Meta Knight.

First off, you should not be basing your opinions on a match up strictly by what has happened in a few pro player sets. It is a good source to pull data from, but it is not the epitome of truth. I have watched Leo versus Mr. R several times for analysis and Leo does not do anything special, he simply out plays Mr. R, who in turn is doing a lot of things he shouldn't.

Secondly, Sheik does not get 'combo'd for days', at least not relative to what Meta Knight can do against other characters. Meta Knight's combo tree is very elaborate, and he can often score 40-50% combos from a single grab at 0, guaranteed. He cannot do this to Sheik. Her weight and fall speed do not allow a lot of conventional methods of damage to work, and most players that get combo'd by Meta Knight do not know how to fight the character. I still see people DI'ing his ladders in and dying to it post-patch and the game has been out for almost two years. Combos against Sheik need to be basic and consistent. I would actually say that this might be why Tyrant's combo game is so basic and unrefined, since he played Void almost daily.

Sheik does not destroy Meta Knight. If I had to tip the hat to one character over the other, I think it would be Sheik, but it is pretty close. This is my most familiar match up, the one I have studied the most and the one I have the most hours playing. Played properly it is close to even, slightly in Sheik's favor.

Sheik cannot camp Meta Knight forever with Needles and forward air. There is a certain range where this is unsafe to do and the reward for hitting Needles is not high enough relative to the damage Meta Knight can punish with if she uses it too close to Meta Knight at the ledge, or anywhere else. Forward air is good, but the range nerf did a lot for the match up and walking and perfect pivoting, along with shield angling allow this match up to work out well. If Sheik mispaces a forward air she eats a grab combo, and if she spaces well Meta Knight can just reset to neutral. Also, Meta Knight can just down tilt where she is going to land, or dash attack where she is going to land, and she will either eat damage for it, or a combo. The reason Meta Knight players feel this match up is horrible is because of pre-patch PTSD and because their movement options are not refined. If you have slow hands and poor movement, and you do not know the DI patterns then the match up can feel pretty bad. Once you learn these things it is very doable.

 

[EternalFlare]

There are a lot of things that are incorrect being posted right now regarding Sheik vs Meta Knight.

First off, you should not be basing your opinions on a match up strictly by what has happened in a few pro player sets. It is a good source to pull data from, but it is not the epitome of truth. I have watched Leo versus Mr. R several times for analysis and Leo does not do anything special, he simply out plays Mr. R, who in turn is doing a lot of things he shouldn't.

Secondly, Sheik does not get 'combo'd for days', at least not relative to what Meta Knight can do against other characters. Meta Knight's combo tree is very elaborate, and he can often score 40-50% combos from a single grab at 0, guaranteed. He cannot do this to Sheik. Her weight and fall speed do not allow a lot of conventional methods of damage to work, and most players that get combo'd by Meta Knight do not know how to fight the character. I still see people DI'ing his ladders in and dying to it post-patch and the game has been out for almost two years. Combos against Sheik need to be basic and consistent. I would actually say that this might be why Tyrant's combo game is so basic and unrefined, since he played Void almost daily.

Sheik does not destroy Meta Knight. If I had to tip the hat to one character over the other, I think it would be Sheik, but it is pretty close. This is my most familiar match up, the one I have studied the most and the one I have the most hours playing. Played properly it is close to even, slightly in Sheik's favor.

Sheik cannot camp Meta Knight forever with Needles and forward air. There is a certain range where this is unsafe to do and the reward for hitting Needles is not high enough relative to the damage Meta Knight can punish with if she uses it too close to Meta Knight at the ledge, or anywhere else. Forward air is good, but the range nerf did a lot for the match up and walking and perfect pivoting, along with shield angling allow this match up to work out well. If Sheik mispaces a forward air she eats a grab combo, and if she spaces well Meta Knight can just reset to neutral. Also, Meta Knight can just down tilt where she is going to land, or dash attack where she is going to land, and she will either eat damage for it, or a combo. The reason Meta Knight players feel this match up is horrible is because of pre-patch PTSD and because their movement options are not refined. If you have slow hands and poor movement, and you do not know the DI patterns then the match up can feel pretty bad. Once you learn these things it is very doable.

There's no MK close to Leo's level so it's the only relevant pro matchup that could be used. And it happened several times with MK Leo coming out on top (except when he didn't use MK) so I'm not cherry picking here.

I'm assuming you are expecting good SDI, otherwise extended combos do work on Sheik, you can at the very least see MK Leo pull of 3+ consecutive hits here and there. But fair enough, with better DI and falling bair techs it would not work. I stand corrected.

I agree with the rest, it's what I've been saying the whole time. If Sheik just runs away and camps, the risk/reward is not in her favour. At worst I'd say it's 55/45 in Sheik's favour but probably even thanks to rage.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I can probably agree with you, Ulevo, and say that the reason the MU felt so free vs every single MK I have played against is because no MK has movement options and mixup potential like Leo does.
If he's at the range where needles become unsafe I have no reason to be afraid because I only need to cover 2 options. Against Leo, however, it's clear that I have almost NO idea what he's going to try and pull.
But herein lies the issue.
If Leo is the only MK not getting destroyed by Sheiks, what does that say for the MU?
I'm not talking about Sheik vs Leo. I'm talking about Sheik vs MK. That means Tyrant, Abadango, Ito, Jbandrew, S2H, and the hundreds of other people that play MK.
a matchup chart cannot accurately reflect two people playing each side perfectly, because the game unfortunately is not that far yet.
smash 4 players are pretty dumb and want to take the same silly approach to every matchup the same way. Which is why you see stupid things like Mr. R airdodging after an Uair that won't guarantee shuttle loop when he could jump and be safe.
Or trying to Bouncing Fish while Leo's back is towards him and is less than 3 character spaces away.
the matchup will change when all the other MKs step it up and show that it isn't stuff only Leo can do.

 

[Ulevo]

I can probably agree with you, Ulevo, and say that the reason the MU felt so free vs every single MK I have played against is because no MK has movement options and mixup potential like Leo does.
If he's at the range where needles become unsafe I have no reason to be afraid because I only need to cover 2 options. Against Leo, however, it's clear that I have almost NO idea what he's going to try and pull.
But herein lies the issue.
If Leo is the only MK not getting destroyed by Sheiks, what does that say for the MU?
I'm not talking about Sheik vs Leo. I'm talking about Sheik vs MK. That means Tyrant, Abadango, Ito, Jbandrew, S2H, and the hundreds of other people that play MK.
a matchup chart cannot accurately reflect two people playing each side perfectly, because the game unfortunately is not that far yet.
smash 4 players are pretty dumb and want to take the same silly approach to every matchup the same way. Which is why you see stupid things like Mr. R airdodging after an Uair that won't guarantee shuttle loop when he could jump and be safe.
Or trying to Bouncing Fish while Leo's back is towards him and is less than 3 character spaces away.
the matchup will change when all the other MKs step it up and show that it isn't stuff only Leo can do.

Abadango is a pre-patch Meta Knight. He has some basic fundamentals and is a smart player, but he is not a properly refined Meta Knight main. I have not watched Jbandrew in a long time, but I was not particularly impressed with his gameplay. S2H is mediocre, and Tyrant is extremely unrefined in his gameplay and plays with a large handicap because of this.

Leo excluded, Ito is the only real Meta Knight main that plays match ups the way they should be played and is close to refining his punish options, and he regularly goes even with and beats Trevonte, who is a decent Sheik player. Tyrant has also done well against Void in the past.

I think there are other viable examples to pull from, Ito being the best currently.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah the top bayo players are nutty, we obviously lose to more than one mu. Lucas, Sonic, Marth, Diddy, Tink, Mario, and possibly Corrin.

That being said, I do think we win against Link, but only like 55:45, and no, he can't effectively edgeguard us, either.

Ya'll definitely don't lose to us.

If anything, Bayo is one of Corrin's worst match ups.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Abadango is a pre-patch Meta Knight. He has some basic fundamentals and is a smart player, but he is not a properly refined Meta Knight main. I have not watched Jbandrew in a long time, but I was not particularly impressed with his gameplay. S2H is mediocre, and Tyrant is extremely unrefined in his gameplay and plays with a large handicap because of this.

Leo excluded, Ito is the only real Meta Knight main that plays match ups the way they should be played and is close to refining his punish options, and he regularly goes even with and beats Trevonte, who is a decent Sheik player. Tyrant has also done well against Void in the past.

I think there are other viable examples to pull from, Ito being the best currently.

I don't think it's any secret that Aba's MK sucks at this point.
Only listed all the MKs I know. Not the best ones. If I was listing the best I'd have said Ito Leo Tyrant and called it a day.

 

[Ulevo]

I know, I am just saying those are the ones worth pulling video footage from to use for assessment, and Ito has plenty of pre-patch and post-patch Meta Knight versus Sheik footage. Tyrant has a fair share too.

 

[FeelMeUp]

You should post a few games where the MK played the MU properly and didn't ride by on the Sheik playing it like ass.
I'm hoping it'll be something from, say, an SSS or WNF that I haven't seen yet.

 

[Ulevo]

You should post a few games where the MK played the MU properly and didn't ride by on the Sheik playing it like ***.
I'm hoping it'll be something from, say, an SSS or WNF that I haven't seen yet.

SSS/WNF?

 

[FeelMeUp]

SSS/WNF?

you can catch some of the California guys at tourneys like MSM, SSS, or WNF
SSS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFOaTMfEMmI Ito vs VoiD
MSM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBEH_9czys Tyrant vs VoiD
WNF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTfxqrDenfE Concon(Luigi, yeah, I know) vs VoiD