Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[BSP]

Quip about the sonic discussion: as infuriating as it is to deal with Sonic's mix up potential, at the same time nothing he does is 100% safe. He has to put himself at risk whenever he wants to get anything done.

Risk:reward is skewed for him vs some of the bad characters, but I think that's more of a problem with the bad characters than Sonic.

 

[Sleek Media]

The complaint people are making isn't that he is 100% safe on a mechanical level (he comes close though). It's that you can't punish him on reaction, and failing to make the heavy read required to punish him results in you getting punished much harder than you would have punished Sonic. It's a numbers game that most characters are bound to lose. One of the Sonic players said earlier that Sonic's game is all about baiting and punishing. If you have to make risky reads just to play the neutral, then you're basically forced to play into his hands. Sonic may have some risk in his approach, and I would argue that it's much less than average, but it does not matter because he controls when the engagements happen in the first place. He doesn't have to take that risk. He's much better built for forcing his opponent to make a mistake and punishing.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

What's Sonic's matchup spread like? Learned a lot about the character from the last two pages but still don't know a lot about his meta, namely his matchups.

 

[LancerStaff]

For Fox Illusion and technically Falco Phantasm, I don't think they have landing lag anymore since there isn't a freefall animation.

Pretty sure they do. Pit's side B doesn't have a freefall animation, just a ridiculously long endlag animation that also gives him special landing lag like what most up Bs have. That'd also mean you can't cancel the endlag with an aerial, and a special might end up just storing the endlag.

 

[soniczx123]

What's Sonic's matchup spread like? Learned a lot about the character from the last two pages but still don't know a lot about his meta, namely his matchups.

No prominent player has created a traditional MU spread for Sonic in quite a while. Only thing that I'm aware of is 6WX's playstyle chart.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fun fact if I remember correctly: Melee and Smash 4 Fox's Reflector have the about same total frames, so around 40 frames, and therefore, similar 34-ish recovery. Difference? Melee's was jump-cancellable at any time unlike Smash 4 where you have to reflect something. Meanwhile in Brawl, where it had 28? total frames, so 25 recovery frames. Man, I miss the days in Brawl where you could jump in the air and repeatedly use Reflector to hover in the air as Fox.

For Fox Illusion and technically Falco Phantasm, I don't think they have landing lag anymore since there isn't a freefall animation. Why they have lower recovery when used out of a hop is unknown and I don't think anyone has checked to see if it was true. Technically, Fox Illusion should always have 49 -- 45 if you count the 5 active frames -- frames of recovery regardless if you used it on the ground or in the air. Aerial Phantasm has the same 49 recovery too, but slightly lower 43 when used on the ground. Inexplicably, they're both said to have lower recovery when used from a hop.

I think it was for the best to have shine stalling nerfed; in Brawl, it essentially gave players a reason to chaingrab Fox instead of juggle him (unless you were MK), since he could control the pace of his landing quite well. I can't imagine how useful that would be in Smash4, not just for landings but for juggles. This also got me thinking; I've never seen a Smash4 Fox use Reflector as a way of delaying their juggles to bait air dodges, and obviously because of the 40 frames endlag, enough time for the opponent to escape or punish it. Imagine how scary it would be if it had Brawl's frames; Fox in the middle of a U-air chase in this game would be disgusting if he could delay his timing with Reflector. No idea why the semi-spike knockback had to be changed though, at least after 1.1.0 it has stronger KB and a bigger hitbox.

I can only speculate why the landing lag on Illusion/Phantasm is lower than move duration now; maybe it has to do with the fact that you can now act out of it after the duration of the move ends, but since the entire move lasts 49 frames, it's more likely you'll land first. The landing somehow triggers ~16 frames of lag (this is approximate data I got from 1.1.1 but I don't think it is different in 1.1.6), which is way better than the additional ones you'd have to wait if you used it grounded.

 

[UberMadman]

What's Sonic's matchup spread like? Learned a lot about the character from the last two pages but still don't know a lot about his meta, namely his matchups.

Strong MUs across the board, but notably tougher MUs against Fox, Rosalina, and arguably ZSS. Fox also poses good mobility, but he has excellent frame data and better overall reward than Sonic, and can force an approach with lasers if Sonic is camping. Luma is really hard to get past for Sonic, so Rosa walls him pretty hard at times. And finally, ZSS poses the overall best mobility in the game while having strong disadvantage and good reward, meaning she can actually outmaneuver Sonic after a few hard reads and force commitments out of him, though Sonic in turn can punish her commitments pretty easily and make it hard for her to land a grab.

 

[EternalFlare]

Regarding Mewtwo. I wonder how good he'd be considered if people mastered his infinite. It works on the entire cast excluding Diddy, Olimar and MK.

We do see nair footstool-disable setups in tournament but usually for just 1 rep. But he can totally repeat this for as long as he wants after the first one. The only chance the opponent has of getting out of it is SDIng to the other side which the Mewtwo player could foresee (it just becomes a 50/50 to continue it at that point). And I'm not sure if SDI will always make a difference anyway, might be character dependant.

Just imagine. Mewtwo killing you at 30 with one combo because he landed a reverse nair. That could potentially happen.

No Mewtwo seems to be doing this yet. It seems they land one footstool disable and are satisfied with the damage. Or only go for it during kill ranges.

But I remember early on in both Brawl, Icies weren't good at their infinite either. It wasn't until the later years of Brawl Icies really rose to prominence largely due to superior execution by its players.

The scariest thing is Mewtwo is already considered top tier without its player base abusing this. By contrast Brawl Icies would be mid tier at best (maybe not even that) without their chaingrabs.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Isn't each footstool disable frame perfect, though?
Lets see if we could get Umeki to drop Peach and pick up M2

 

[EternalFlare]

Isn't each footstool disable frame perfect, though?
Lets see if we could get Umeki to drop Peach and pick up M2

No idea how tight the timing is. If anyone knows the frame data let us know.

But Smash 4 does have buffering like Brawl so even if technically it's a 1 frame link to connect a footstool after the nair, it's not actually a 1 frame in practice (if you did the jump a few frames too early while in nair lag, it will still immediately happen as soon as it can).

So I can totally see this being a fairly consistent thing a year or so from now from the best Mewtwo players.

I wonder if Nintendo would patch it out if that happened. Normally I'd say they don't care about competitive play but they have actually nerfed characters that were overpowered only in competitive play like Sheik (who isn't necessarily good in casual play).

 

[Murlough]

It doesn't need to be frame perfect. I can't get specific but I've practiced the trick myself and the window is tight but not THAT tight.

EDIT: take this with a grain of salt. I would hate to give misinformation. :/ From what I could tell it wasn't frame perfect.

Edit: you have to input a double jump before using disable or it won't work. You can't buffer the disable immediately after the footstool.

Sonicninja115 do you know the details?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Using this document:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w2np2664Vg_yodBChO18BmHhvIBMzZLWBpLFyNsi14c/htmlview#
​

Mewtwo's footstool has 8 frames before M2 can act. Accounting for the 16 frames of start-up on Disable, it adds up to 24 frames. Meaning on a couple of characters they are +2, but on the majority they are +3/4. If every input is buffered correctly, then it easily trues. Even if you have to waste a couple of frames on the DJ, it still trues. You also have to account for the opponent reacting to it, as pretty soon, M2's should be adding the mix-up options.

TL;DR, Footstool-Disable, pretty easy with the proper control set ups. Alternatively, the Nair can be somewhat SDI'ed at times and DI can also make it harder.

 

[EternalFlare]

Good call on not being able to buffer the double jump part.

Well based off my testing which is admittedly limited (I hate the analog on the 3DS :/) the footstool-disable part is a lot easier on some characters than others.

I can do it on most large bodies fairly consistently.

But on some like Mario it's insanely difficult for me. Not only do you have to hold back and then down so you don't crossup and fail, you'll still crossup if you don't do it ridiculously fast.

If anyone else has tested it, let me know if you've netted similar results. I want to know if it's just me/my control scheme or if it's actually that hard on Mario.

 

[Ffamran]

I think it was for the best to have shine stalling nerfed; in Brawl, it essentially gave players a reason to chaingrab Fox instead of juggle him (unless you were MK), since he could control the pace of his landing quite well. I can't imagine how useful that would be in Smash4, not just for landings but for juggles. This also got me thinking; I've never seen a Smash4 Fox use Reflector as a way of delaying their juggles to bait air dodges, and obviously because of the 40 frames endlag, enough time for the opponent to escape or punish it. Imagine how scary it would be if it had Brawl's frames; Fox in the middle of a U-air chase in this game would be disgusting if he could delay his timing with Reflector. No idea why the semi-spike knockback had to be changed though, at least after 1.1.0 it has stronger KB and a bigger hitbox.

It could have lower recovery, though. Not Brawl's recovery*, but something like 30 which is only a 4 drop from its current recovery. I say this since Reflector doesn't exactly a large hitbox compared to say, Falco, Palutena, the Pits, or Zelda's reflects or even (Dr.) Mario, Lucas, and Ness's. It's just on around his body -- hopefully at least the Reflector graphic and not on his body -- and seeing as no frame data sources report this, it also lost invincibility from Brawl. Brawl Reflector was apparently frame 1 invincible. Just 1 frame, but considering Fox is reflecting with a relatively small reflect, it could make a difference. Frame 1 might not be useful with Reflector not being reliably attack anymore like in Melee, but if it was say, frame 4 invincible, that could really help out for reflecting to make sure Fox doesn't get caught the moment he reflects. Yes, yes, Fox's Reflector essentially has infinite reflect frames, but it's not that useful and, I don't think it should have even been a thing. In no situation does Fox need to just sit there with Reflector out. If he does that, most of the cast could punish him and he's really not doing anything. I have a similar sentiment regarding rapid jabs and Falco's Blaster; there's really no reason to just sit there holding jab, especially in past games where rapid jabs didn't do any significant knockback in a game where knockback is the focus, or for Falco to just sit and fire when Blaster only does set knockback, when "normal" projectiles rarely are able to fire multiple times normally -- usually, you'd need to spend meter or there's a catch like Bayonetta's firing upwards, so there's kind of a safe zone for people to approach her, or Fox's does no hit stun to begin with. Anyway, I digress.

Fox being able to alter timing on his juggles would be crazy. Usually there's a catch for that like for one, Peach can float up high, but her juggles aren't as potent, 16% total potent, as Fox's and she isn't a fast faller, so she can't fake you out and drop down quickly to jump back up. Fox being able to basically hover in the air would mean he has another option for his juggles and this one is one where he can place himself under you, stay in the air, and react instead of having to fake you out by fast falling or hopping, or hitting you before you air dodge. Maybe a reason why they felt like ZSS shouldn't be able to hover assuming what people saw was right and not just the perfect screenshot... Geez, the ability to hover and bait for a Boost Kick or Uair followup. For Smash 4 Reflector, I couldn't find anything on its knockback being changed. All I found was that its active was increased to 2 from 1 and its hitbox was increased: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/. I'm going to assume that the hitbox really was too small... Which looking between games and while it's kind of difficult to compare sizes, Brawl Reflector's size was 6, the same as 1.1.0 Smash 4's. Pre-1.1.0 Smash 4's size was 4. Why? I don't know. It's not even useful as hit, so why make the hitbox smaller?

*Brawl Reflector's recovery is weird... On Dantarion's site: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitFox.php, its FAF is listed as 29. There is no mention whatsoever of IASA or that its total frames is 20 like in Brawl Fox's frame data thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/foxs-framework-complete.240800/. If we go with Dantarion, go with Fox's file, then it's 26 recovery -- screwed up a bit there when I said 25 --, from its frame 3 startup and 29 FAF. If we go with his frame data thread, then it's 18 since it would have a 21 FAF instead of 29.

I can only speculate why the landing lag on Illusion/Phantasm is lower than move duration now; maybe it has to do with the fact that you can now act out of it after the duration of the move ends, but since the entire move lasts 49 frames, it's more likely you'll land first. The landing somehow triggers ~16 frames of lag (this is approximate data I got from 1.1.1 but I don't think it is different in 1.1.6), which is way better than the additional ones you'd have to wait if you used it grounded.

Eh, I don't know. It's weird... Falco does enter landing animation if the recovery hasn't finished; Falco's animation after an aerial Phantasm has him spin and look like he's in idle, but there is a part where it is considered still part of Phantasm and you can landing with the wings out landing. Part of me feels like they go through the entire recovery, but it factors in all the movement since you're falling and moving forward and as you land, you stop, now going through the rest of the recovery.

Also, Falco Phantasm and Fox Illusion don't last 49 frames. 49 frames is their recovery, their end lag, well, aerial recovery for Falco Phantasm. Falco Phantasm lasts 60 frames grounded and 66 in the air and Fox Illusion lasts 69 frames. Just a minor correction.

Spoiler: Other Falco Phantasm / Fox Illusion stuff

Anyway, one thing I just learned while checking this, Falco Phantasm stutters unlike in past games and unlike Fox Illusion. During Fox Illusion, Fox dashes forward smoothly keeping his momentum throughout the move. During Falco Phantasm, Falco pauses about midway when his hitboxes end -- you can see this by the second dust trail during Phantasm -- and then continues moving, albeit possibly slower? Before the explanation on the possibly, Falco Phantasm technically always starts "airborne". No explanation for when used in the air, but on the ground, for some reason, Falco hovers a bit off the ground and midway, he lands and slides forward for the rest of the distance. In a way, you could compare it to Luigi or Sonic skidding during their runs or a jet braking. In the air, he can't do that, but the pause is still there. So, Falco Phantasm is something like dash, beat, slide, and stop to Fox Ilusion's dash and stop.

Does this make a real difference? Kind of. Fox Illusion would be faster since it always keeps a constant speed while Falco Phantasm doesn't and also possibly slows downs during the last part of it. What also doesn't help is that I think and this would be weird to test -- they have different startups --, is that Fox Illusion already moves faster than Falco Phantasm, so there's that too. Oh, and the whole not having a hitbox on the entire travel which technically can be considered false now if you consider the pause as Falco's actual stopping point. Difference with Fox's is that Falco slides on the ground / glides in the air to a stop while Fox just stops moving.

Basically, Falco Phantasm is much easier to punish. Falco really shouldn't being able to Phantasm onto the stage. The same can be said with Fox Illusion since neither of them have a hitbox on front, but behind them. Fox's is safer because it covers almost all of its travel so he can try to clank and if it is indeed faster, then yes, there's that edge too. Falco doesn't have that protection and you could even argue he shouldn't even be able to Phantasm to the ledge against certain characters such as Diddy, Fox, Ike, and Ryu because of the raised hurtbox by the pose of one wing being raised up.

 

[EternalFlare]

Using this document:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w2np2664Vg_yodBChO18BmHhvIBMzZLWBpLFyNsi14c/htmlview#
​

Mewtwo's footstool has 8 frames before M2 can act. Accounting for the 16 frames of start-up on Disable, it adds up to 24 frames. Meaning on a couple of characters they are +2, but on the majority they are +3/4. If every input is buffered correctly, then it easily trues. Even if you have to waste a couple of frames on the DJ, it still trues. You also have to account for the opponent reacting to it, as pretty soon, M2's should be adding the mix-up options.

TL;DR, Footstool-Disable, pretty easy with the proper control set ups. Alternatively, the Nair can be somewhat SDI'ed at times and DI can also make it harder.

Do you find it easy on all characters? What proper control scheme are you referring to?

It doesn't work on Olimar, Diddy or MK.

It technically works on the rest but it seems really hard on some like Mario and Pacman.

 

[Murlough]

Do you find it easy on all characters? What proper control scheme are you referring to?

It doesn't work on Olimar, Diddy or MK.

It technically works on the rest but it seems really hard on some like Mario and Pacman.

Having a bumper set to special makes it so much easier. Which is super convenient if you also play Sheik.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Here's a question, has this been already posted here?

"Lucina is 29 spaces lower than Marth."
"Wait, how come?"
"She has less range-"

These memes need to die pic.twitter.com/Bne5aiGAt6

— Jonty (skarfelt.bsky.social) 🇵🇸 (@Skarfelt_) July 7, 2016

If not, well
guess we don't need any more proof.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I don't think anyone believes that Lucina has less range than Marth but rather she doesnt get the same reward Marth does for that range nor can she kill as well as Marth and as early. I think people underrated her but she shouldn't be near Marth on a tier list.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I don't think anyone believes that Lucina has less range than Marth but rather she doesnt get the same reward Marth does for that range nor can she kill as well as Marth and as early. I think people underrated her but she shouldn't be near Marth on a tier list.

Nah. You'd be surprised with how many people still insist she has less range than Marth.
I mean, she kinda does, but vertical range on a few moves thanks to her height, not horizontal. Also, the difference is not noticeable even then.

 

[C0rvus]

Personally I can't justify not putting her more than a few spaces below Marth aside from lack of results. Everything else more or less points to her being almost as good as Marth, who himself is quite good.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Nah. You'd be surprised with how many people still insist she has less range than Marth.
I mean, she kinda does, but vertical range on a few moves thanks to her height, not horizontal. Also, the difference is not noticeable even then.

I think people are deceived by the lack of a tipper. Marth's tipper makes it feel like he has more range when your facing him.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Everytime I log into here I am dissapointed there's no new Tier List yet...

 

[blackghost]

i find it interesting that Nintendo actually put a mechanic to punish mashing in this game

that is a very good element that rewards players playing deliberately. so from now on no more execuses for some of these sd's. if you get caught mashing you get punished by the game itself.

 

[FamilyTeam]

i find it interesting that Nintendo actually put a mechanic to punish mashing in this game

that is a very good element that rewards players playing deliberately. so from now on no more execuses for some of these sd's. if you get caught mashing you get punished by the game itself.

The problem is that you have to mash to get out of Yoshi's egg. So this is punishing you for trying to survive, pretty much.

 

[blackghost]

The problem is that you have to mash to get out of Yoshi's egg. So this is punishing you for trying to survive, pretty much.

not if you put in the move you want to do first then mash. so it punishes a player that is panicking and just pressing buttons like wolverine in umvc 3. and you only need to get out of yoshi egg lay that quick in certain situations not every time.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Everytime I log into here I am dissapointed there's no new Tier List yet...

I second that, personally.
I'd love to see v2 to see how the meta game has evolved over time. We need a revision, imo.

 

[meleebrawler]

The problem is that you have to mash to get out of Yoshi's egg. So this is punishing you for trying to survive, pretty much.

Jamming the control stick instead of buttons is much faster and has little risk of mis-inputs anyway.

 

[Fenny]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Now THIS I can agree with.

For the most part anyway.

 

[Murlough]

How does she destroy Jr? Edgeguarding?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Move everyone up one (diddy 65:35, sheik/mario/lucas 60:40, etc) and I would sort of agree with it, at the moment I can't see her only losing 4 matchups.

 

[FullMoon]

Why would Lucas of all characters give Bayo a hard time? He looks really out of place with her other bad MUs.

 

[EternalFlare]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Now THIS I can agree with.

For the most part anyway.

So Bayonetta only has 3 slightly unfavourable matchups and 1 bad matchup?

This seems like the matchup spread of a top 6 calibur character. As you probably won't find more than 5 characters with a superior matchup spread to this. Only ones I know for sure are Diddy and Sheik.

Bayonetta's results at least in the US have been good lately, but idk if you could justify calling her top 6-8 yet. She lacks a top 8 presence at super majors (iirc definitely has gotten top 16 a few times though).

 

[Fenny]

Why would Lucas of all characters give Bayo a hard time? He looks really out of place with her other bad MUs.

Lucas's PK Fire and zair does a good job at keeping Bayo at a distance, and since he gets most of his stuff off of grabs he isn't as susceptible to WT as others. Doesn't help that all his throws can kill and he has probably the best tether grab in the game. Off-stage, having two avenues of good recovery and a good double jump + air dodge make him harder to effectively gimp.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Bayonetta players aren't getting camped hard enough

 

[Fenny]

Bayonetta players aren't getting camped hard enough

why do people keep saying this like she can't powershield, dABK or use bullet arts

if someone's attempting to camp Bayo then it's literally a case of playing patient and tacking on damage with BA dtilt until they see an opening. Not to mention that in most cases, platforms are a thing to alleviate that.

 

[Pancracio17]

Everyone says bayo players "havent been camped enough", but top players have tons of experience, so they probably have. Besides having a advantage state as strong as hers with so many ways to acces it makes it so that she gets a lot once she eventually gets in.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

why do people keep saying this like she can't powershield, dABK or use bullet arts

if someone's attempting to camp Bayo then it's literally a case of playing patient and tacking on damage with BA dtilt until they see an opening. Not to mention that in most cases, platforms are a thing to alleviate that.

Characters with low runs like Little Mac and Greninja can completely ignore Bullet Climax because of the angle and the lack of range/hitstun on BA makes it hard for her to compete at a distance with a lot of characters. Besides, camping doesn't always mean just spamming the **** out of a projectile. Sonic is a great example of that.

Trying to beat a campy Fox player? Good luck. DABK in and you eat 30%, BA get outranged by lasers, his mobility is in another league, etc. Yet do we see Fox players trying to camp her? No, we see them try and play their typical rushdown game

 

[EternalFlare]

Admittedly on paper Bayonetta seems amazing:

1. Best combo game. I don't think this is debatable until people start SDIing and even then I doubt it's possible during the middle of her combos everytime. As of now, it's not rare for Bayonetta to get 40-60 everytime she gets in even against top players. And not just at low percents which is an extremely rare thing in Smash 4.

2. One of the best recoveries. She has way too many good options. Honestly it's arguable her recovery is even better than Sheiks as even Sheik can't go as deep as Bayonetta can.

3. Great landing options with several momentum shifting moves + witch time.

4. Great edge guarding capabilities (easily top 5 in the game at this imo).

5. Witch time is probably hands down the best move in the game. With no other move do you lose a
stock at 80 without rage because you threw out ANY attack including a jab while in advantage. Other similar moves require a long charge. Ryu's TSRK also is similar except it's weaker in the air and you have to be right next to him to get sweet spotted. If you can outrange him or are below him, it's not an issue. But Witch time is always a major threat at close quarters and can lead into just as early kills if not earlier.

Sure Bayonetta doesn't have the best neutral. But this is more than made up by her damage output. She doesn't need many openings to close out a stock because of this.

 

[PK Gaming]

I don't think anyone believes that Lucina has less range than Marth but rather she doesnt get the same reward Marth does for that range nor can she kill as well as Marth and as early. I think people underrated her but she shouldn't be near Marth on a tier list.

I'm pretty sure "Lucina is shorter and therefore has slightly less range than Marth" has been a thing for a long time.

At this point, I don't think you can get away with ranking her that much lower than him in a hypothetical tier list. They're fairly close to each other.

 

[LRodC]

Why does he believe that Link is such a 65:35 match up, whereas Toon Link is even? I doubt the gap is that large.