Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ulevo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly5EZYCUg6I

 

[FeelMeUp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly5EZYCUg6I

Speaking of Trevonte.
I meant to say.
He plays matchups better than almost any other Sheik in the world and will be a force to be reckoned with once he fixes issues like panic rolls and a godawful combo game.
Very solid player.
But yes, thank you for the set. I'll study it tomorrow.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Since there's no real big discussion atm I figure I may as well post my Sheik MU chart.
A few people have asked for my opinion on some of her matchups lately so this should give a good general pictures.
There are some issues, like there being MUs that are between the tiers(i.e Sheik MK/MM isn't quite 7:3 but is worse than 6:4) and MUs that change depending on whether you know most of the character interactions well.
and, well, yeah. I still think this character is stupid so here you go

Spoiler: Ban Sheik.

View attachment 115869

I feel like DK is a **** ton worse than 55:45

Edgeguarding him is free, he loses the neutral extremely easily and will eat 50+ off of a single string, his ledge options are some of the worst in the game making him easily ledge trapped, etc. Imo hes one of the most over rated characters atm

 

[FeelMeUp]

DK and Bowser were borderline 6:4 for me but DK's tilts and okay-ish neutral are what made me put him in 55:45.
As for Bowser.....well, I'll just say they may as well be the same character to me at this point. fighting bowser feels like fighting Lucina compared to Marth.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The only good thing about DK is his ability to chip away at you with his tilts while he gets absolutely bodied until he can grab you at a stupidly lower percent and kill you. Or you can swap the tilts for a grab, deal huge amounts of percent then get bodied and grab them at a low percent.

Seriously though, when was the last time a DK did anything? How have DK Will's results been lately? Has he gone to events? I remember around this time last year he was doing well ('course, he was also using Sheik sooooo) but I haven't heard or seen anything DK related in a while other than Larry Lurr's DK (which is the perfect example of my first paragraph).

 

[Das Koopa]

not sure if it's time to re-examine the Sheik/MM matchup or not

Kameme 2-0 Mr. R again, this time without SDs

 

[Kofu]

not sure if it's time to re-examine the Sheik/MM matchup or not

Kameme 2-0 Mr. R again, this time without SDs

I dunno, Scatt got demolished against VoiD. Could be a player-specific thing (I've heard Kamemushi somehow does better at the Sheik MU than other MM players).

 

[Shaya]

The winds of change are in the air~

 

[Sleek Media]

I don't know what the difference might be with Kamemushi, but Scatt still gets bopped by Shiek. My skill level is "beats MD/VA ranked players sometimes", and where I'm at, it still feels like Mega's worst MU by far, even after her nerfs. Maybe there's some magic with the footstool setup that evens things out (haven't seen how Kame won that new set), but there's no way it's better than 30:70 if you're just doing normal Mega Man stuff (relatively safe neutral with reads when you think the opponent is conditioned, etc). I'd actually argue it's more like 20:80. Can't tell you how many games I lost to people who barely even played her. It's one of the reasons I dropped Mega Man. To put it in perspective, I got to play Larry Lurr in pools, and it didn't feel as bad as fighting some of the local joe schmoe Shieks none of you have ever heard of. Fox is a bad MU for obvious reasons, but you still feel like you have a chance. Shiek just never lets up. You get overwhelmed up close, and camped at a distance. Needles still rob Mega Man of any stage control, nAir stuffs almost his entire kit, and his usually great edgeguarding is worthless against Shiek's recovery. Even pellets are dangerous to use in this MU...she can just swat them with fAir, and even if she eats them, she's fast enough to pressure you unless the last pellet is done in a retreating short hop, and there's only so much stage to run around in. Can you post the set so we can see what happened? Could be one of those MUs that has a huge difference in ratio for local/regional/national play.

 

[Yikarur]

https://clips.twitch.tv/shi_gaming/PreciousFrogWutFace
how to lose against Mega Man 8)

 

[Das Koopa]

Umebura SAT (August 20th-21st) (Japan) (300 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: KEN
2nd: Dabuz
3rd: Nairo
4th: Kamemushi
5th: Taiheita
5th: Mr. R
7th: Kuro
7th: Tsu-
9th: T
9th: Shuton
9th: Nietono ,
9th: Sigma
13th: Abadango
13th: Ranai
13th: Komorikiri
13th: Eim

A lot of good players scored well outside of top 16. This was filled with upsets (Taiheita > Aba, T > Ranai, KEN 9-1ing his way through Top 8, etc.) so it's worth watching/looking into.

 

[Fenny]

Yeah the top bayo players are nutty, we obviously lose to more than one mu. Lucas, Sonic, Marth, Diddy, Tink, Mario, and possibly Corrin.

That being said, I do think we win against Link, but only like 55:45, and no, he can't effectively edgeguard us, either.

>Corrin

Please learn to love Bullet Climax in that MU. It invalidates his neutral B and shuts down short hop to instapin attempts. We definitely win that match up.

 

[TheGlove]

https://clips.twitch.tv/shi_gaming/PreciousFrogWutFace
how to lose against Mega Man 8)

That was a good bait by Kame. Mr. R clearly thought he would go for a double up air and air dodged giving Kame time to pull metal blade. Mr. R then tried to deny him from getting such a dangerous tool by falling with and ariel and got footstooled for it. Unfortunately if he had just jumped away and reset neutral nothing would have happened. Will have to look up game 2 to see how well Kame did in neutral there.

Also can we talk about KEN winning this with dominance over Nairo and Dabuz. I think like two pages ago people were arguing both of those characters being hard counters to Sonic. Clearly we need some set play analysis on these matches.

 

[Bjurrse]

Im sorry but this thread has become the "I know best, you are wrong" thread.

Sure there is a good amount of discussion, but many posters just nitpick and go super defensive when their opinion is challenged.

Its even more annoying seeing that people usually defend "old members' and discredits newer posters. It is kind of circlejerky...

Newer members does not necessary equal new players.

With that out of the way, it has been a while since I saw Wario beeing discussed. Where does SB think he stands right now?

Personally I find him really fun to play, but it feels like his lack of comboes and overreliance on waft is holding him back.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Im sorry but this thread has become the "I know best, you are wrong" thread.

Sure there is a good amount of discussion, but many posters just nitpick and go super defensive when their opinion is challenged.

Its even more annoying seeing that people usually defend "old members' and discredits newer posters. It is kind of circlejerky...

Newer members does not necessary equal new players.

With that out of the way, it has been a while since I saw Wario beeing discussed. Where does SB think he stands right now?

Personally I find him really fun to play, but it feels like his lack of comboes and overreliance on waft is holding him back.

Wait, are you implying this thread at some point wasn't the "I know best, you are wrong" thread of these boards?
Man I wish I could've been in this place when that was the case.

 

[Das Koopa]

KEN played very offensively compare to most Sonics. He wasn't afraid to approach with tricky and unpredictable movement, he maximized all of his punishes and refused to let up if somebody was off the ground.

The fact he was willing to approach and maximize his punish game (this especially, his punishes were vicious) is why he was able to come back from a significant deficit in games 6 and 7 with Dabuz in GF. He was also fantastic at reading both players, and utilized Sonic's movement to help with that.

So it was a combination of movement + pressure + reading that led him into a swift 9-1 in Top 8.

He also did a lot of small things right. Constantly dropped Luma ASAP, didn't try to be fancy with edgeguards in favor of retaining stage control so he could keep applying pressure, good DI, good avoidance and dodges, etc.

 

[soniczx123]

KEN played very offensively compare to most Sonics. He wasn't afraid to approach with tricky and unpredictable movement, he maximized all of his punishes and refused to let up if somebody was off the ground.

The fact he was willing to approach and maximize his punish game (this especially, his punishes were vicious) is why he was able to come back from a significant deficit in games 6 and 7 with Dabuz in GF. He was also fantastic at reading both players, and utilized Sonic's movement to help with that.

So it was a combination of movement + pressure + reading that led him into a swift 9-1 in Top 8.

He also did a lot of small things right. Constantly dropped Luma ASAP, didn't try to be fancy with edgeguards in favor of retaining stage control so he could keep applying pressure, good DI, good avoidance and dodges, etc.

Exactly. This playstyle makes Sonic's issue of playing from behind not as apparent, cause you with won one in the neutral which amount to lots damage.

 

[Das Koopa]

For comparisons sake, I feel like (watching Wrath, a very reserved Sonic by comparison) """optimal Sonic""" doesn't extend punishes or apply pressure as much. They're forced too if they're behind, but you can see that styles like Wrath's just aren't as refined at it, and often stick to the most literal definition of hit & run you can use, even if they clearly could've kept up pressure and given themselves long-term positioning or extended their lead.

It's just really weird to see Nairo gasping for air an entire set. Hoping to see KEN sponsored after this, he's relatively consistent and now has 2 top 10 players under his belt.

 

[Murlough]

Im sorry but this thread has become the "I know best, you are wrong" thread.

Sure there is a good amount of discussion, but many posters just nitpick and go super defensive when their opinion is challenged.

Its even more annoying seeing that people usually defend "old members' and discredits newer posters. It is kind of circlejerky...

Newer members does not necessary equal new players.

With that out of the way, it has been a while since I saw Wario beeing discussed. Where does SB think he stands right now?

Personally I find him really fun to play, but it feels like his lack of comboes and overreliance on waft is holding him back.

I haven't noticed it once.

If you mean people defend their opinion by " go super defensive" then get used to it.

Although certain posters here should definately consider putting some substance in there posts other than "people still think that? lolol" (you know who you are, knock it off and try giving your viewpoint for once instead of belittling everyone.)

Wario is pretty lackluster. I don't have a solid opinion on him because I rarely see him played now but he doesn't have any tools that could make him a huge threat to the rest of the cast. I don't consider waft because he likely won't get it twice unless he camps. Even then he has to actually land the move.

 

[Nobie]

KEN's Sonic play reminds me of something mentioned in that old Juicebox video about footsies.

In it, Juicebox says, in order to play footsies at their best, you HAVE to take some risks. You can't always do the theoretically ideal option because then you get predictable.

In other words, while you incur the least risk of danger by playing a very defensive, campy Sonic, you end up lacking that X-Factor that'll pull you out from huge deficits.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Sonic won a pretty stacked tourney, time for this thread to blow up saying things along the line of "Sonic is the best in the game" or "I personally think Sonic is top 3"
Can we please not do this like we do with every other tournament

 

[Das Koopa]

i think it's reasonable to say Sonic is top 5 based on what KEN accomplished in his gameplay rather than the result in a vacuum

i mean, this could be seen as evident prior to SAT, with SAT only reinforcing that

 

[soniczx123]

KEN's Sonic play reminds me of something mentioned in that old Juicebox video about footsies.

In it, Juicebox says, in order to play footsies at their best, you HAVE to take some risks. You can't always do the theoretically ideal option because then you get predictable.

In other words, while you incur the least risk of danger by playing a very defensive, campy Sonic, you end up lacking that X-Factor that'll pull you out from huge deficits.

Who do you think plays Sonic better?? KEN or Wrath/Komo??

 

[FeelMeUp]

I definitely think Sonic is top 5.
Imo:
Sheik
Diddy
Rosa
Sonic/Fox
Sonic/Fox
Mewtwo
For top 5. Most room for growth are Sheik Rosa and Fox while most apt to fall is Diddy.

 

[soniczx123]

I definitely think Sonic is top 5.
Imo:
Sheik
Diddy
Rosa
Sonic/Fox
Sonic/Fox
Mewtwo
For top 5. Most room for growth are Sheik Rosa and Fox while most apt to fall is Diddy.

Replace M2 with Mario and I'm cool with it.

 

[TDK]

( / ) ( / )

Choose one from each of the bracketed. Personally I think it's sonic and Mario, then fox, then Mewtwo.

 

[Knife8193]

Is ZSS no longer in contention for top 5? I can see her being above Fox/Mewtwo at least despite lower overall representation.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I wouldn't lock in Rosalina as third.

to me its

()()()()()()()

And then after that the brackets get wider and wider for "reasonable to rotate characters within this grouping". It pretty much goes:

(Top Dogs)(Frequent Show Stealers)(Great)(Specialized mains)(All over the radar)(Surprising-but-not-THAT-surprising appearances in top 4)(Occasional surprise top 4/frequent top 16)

 

[DanGR]

For the Ken/Dabuz matchup, Ken actually knew how to shield and punish jab/dtilt spacing correctly instead of just getting cornered and twirling into Luma jabs for 6 minutes like the rest of the world. Even then, he had a lot of room to improve.

 

[EternalFlare]

I definitely think Sonic is top 5.
Imo:
Sheik
Diddy
Rosa
Sonic/Fox
Sonic/Fox
Mewtwo
For top 5. Most room for growth are Sheik Rosa and Fox while most apt to fall is Diddy.

Looking at results, can Rosalina really be called top 3 overall? Dabuz is the most consistent Rosalina by far in tournament, pretty much the only one that regularly places in top 8s with him and he also uses Olimar for a lot of important wins. At SSC he got 2nd but used Olimar to beat Fatality, Scatt and Anti. He probably would have gotten 13th if he didn't have Olimar. Not sure if he used Olimar at Umebura at all but either way the point stands.

I think Rosalina's glaring weakness is disadvantage which is quite bad for her. She still has reactable and limited landing options and a very exploitable recovery. Not to mention she falls drastically through the tiers when Luma is gone who doesn't take much to get rid of.

If SDIing Diddy up Smash is a thing, I can see him falling lower (I personally think he's the best or second best character currently). Sometimes opponents fall out of my up Smash (both grounded and after down tilt) but I'm not sure if it's thin character frames or SDI causing it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy's U Smash is tricky, but be assured when the first few hits connect right, the last impact will hit to. It's only like, the very few first active hitbox frames where it's somewhat possible to SDI Diddy's U Smash. I doubt many characters will be able to escape that consistently.

Bias aside, I do think that Diddy is #1, and I actually think he's been that ever since Sheik, Cloud and Bayonetta got nerfed.

 

[EternalFlare]

Diddy's U Smash is tricky, but be assured when the first few hits connect right, the last impact will hit to. It's only like, the very few first active hitbox frames where it's somewhat possible to SDI Diddy's U Smash. I doubt many characters will be able to escape that consistently.

Bias aside, I do think that Diddy is #1, and I actually think he's been that ever since Sheik, Cloud and Bayonetta got nerfed.

I hope some concrete testing is done on it. IIRC at SSC Zero lost to Day (Lucario) and Zero had the kill. He landed the up Smash but somehow Lucario both got out of it and countered which killed Zero. The clip should be up somewhere, I can't currently find it.

Since Diddy usually does Up Smash after down tilt, that gives the opponent plenty of time to react and SDI the first few frames of Up Smash. So if it's possible, I can see it being consistent down the road.

I also considered Diddy to be the best but he's been lacking in results lately.

The only consistent Diddy these days is Zero and even he has failed to make top 8 at 2 of the last 3 super majors. Zinoto is really inconsistent at majors. Nietono doesn't get top 8 a lot in Japan anymore.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think it's becoming increasingly pointless to look out for a top 5, top 8 or top anything in this game. As soon as we establish that Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Fox and Rosalina are top 5, KEN will win a super major with solo Sonic and show the world that there's a LOT more to Sonic than just abusing spin dash and running away. So then we put Sonic instead of Rosalina in top 5 only to have Pink Fresh win a major with Bayonetta or Nairo winning SSC2 with ZSS, bringing those two character back on the map.

Classifying characters based on whether they are solo viable or not is also no good. ZSS may be more solo-viable than Rosalina but in no way does that make her a better character. In a game where having a good secondary character is good regardless of who you main it doesn't make a lot of sense to make 'solo' viability the key factor of a character's placing.

 

[EternalFlare]

I wouldn't lock in Rosalina as third.

to me its

()()()()()()()

And then after that the brackets get wider and wider for "reasonable to rotate characters within this grouping". It pretty much goes:

(Top Dogs)(Frequent Show Stealers)(Great)(Specialized mains)(All over the radar)(Surprising-but-not-THAT-surprising appearances in top 4)(Occasional surprise top 4/frequent top 16)

Your top 10 makes sense. After that you have a lot of questionable choices.

Megaman for instance deserves to be higher than Ryu,Pika,Falcon,Ness,Tink and Marth for sure.

Kamemushi regularly does really well in Japan and once again got 4th place at a stacked major there. Not only this but he got 2nd at Evo which was the most stacked Smash 4 tournament of all time. If that's not enough, Scatt has been making waves recently consistently getting top 16/8 at majors.

These results are MUCH better than any of those characters, it's not even close. I think Megaman is the most criminally underrated character in general. He consistently puts up ridiculously good results and everyone ignores him. I suspect it's because great Megamans are rare so people can't relate.

Pikachu still being top 15 is wishful thinking. The character hasn't done anything relevant in ages and his best rep by far regularly loses early at majors. Ness has largely fallen off as well.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I really don't think ZSS is that great. She's Lucario with blonde hair and a skintight suit in my eyes.

What determines amazing characters is how many characters you invalidate. And I think Sheik, Rosa, Fox, Diddy and Sonic have the most stupid polarizing things in the game.
Sheik: if your frame data/recovery/landing options/approach options suck you lose the matchup
Fox: If you can't deal with his frame data and mobility while exploiting his bad recovery you lose
Rosa: if you can't get rid of Luma you lose
Etc
ZSS doesn't invalidate a bunch of characters like she used to. Her flaws have gotten more and more apparent, but the spotdodge grab interaction was a massive blow to her risk reward

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Spoiler: Main & Secondary picks

Character | Struggles with | Secondary needed? | Recommended pick
| , mostly personal preference | optional | for Mewtwo; for various

| , various difficult matchups | optional | for Luigi + Sheik; for various

| | optional | for various

| | optional | all the way

| | recommended | all the way

| | strongly recommended |

| | required |

| | required |

| | required | various

| ??? | ??? | ???

Works as main:
Works as secondary:
Works as either:

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Your top 10 makes sense. After that you have a lot of questionable choices.

Megaman for instance deserves to be higher than Ryu,Pika,Falcon,Ness,Tink and Marth for sure.

Kamemushi regularly does really well in Japan and once again got 4th place at a stacked major there. Not only this but he got 2nd at Evo which was the most stacked Smash 4 tournament of all time. If that's not enough, Scatt has been making waves recently consistently getting top 16/8 at majors.

These results are MUCH better than any of those characters, it's not even close. I think Megaman is the most criminally underrated character in general. He consistently puts up ridiculously good results and everyone ignores him. I suspect it's because great Megamans are rare so people can't relate.

Pikachu still being top 15 is wishful thinking. The character hasn't done anything relevant in ages and his best rep by far regularly loses early at majors. Ness has largely fallen off as well.

Pretty sure I've had this discussion with you before about MegaMan.

At most I'd put him in the last bracket. More likely at the very top of the next bracket by himself (what I'd consider the start of mid tier). Results are very important yes, but gotta consider more than just them. If I put more emphasize on results Mewtwo would be dropping: he's 15th overall for top 16s. Wouldn't surprise me if with time he climbs comfortably into the bottom bracket I posted, I want to see more out of Scatt before I'd commit to that. I observe Japanese results, but I don't particularly account for them.

(Also to note: Ness is only slightly behind M2 in top 16 results, just two spots back. 108 vs 96. Pika is quite a bit farther back, but I do believe he has good on paper tools and while ESAM greatly exaggerates his MUs, I don't think they're particularly bad either)

 

[|RK|]

Just a reminder that top players aren't perfect and character placing are still based on what they achieve. Usually we see people acknowledge that dittos don't prove anything since it's just one MU (which is true). I'd like to note that player style is still relevant regardless of whether an MU is good or bad.

I bring this up since people are asking if we should re-evaluate MUs based on matches - Kamemushi vs Mr.R this weekend, for example - but not noting that Mr. R was dominating until he made the error of trying to go for the bair. Could have been the same sort of reversal if he tried that against, say, Ryu.

Actually, on that note - does anyone ever DI Kamemushi's footstools? Or is that guaranteed?

 

[PK Gaming]

I wouldn't lock in Rosalina as third.

to me its

()()()()()()()

And then after that the brackets get wider and wider for "reasonable to rotate characters within this grouping". It pretty much goes:

(Top Dogs)(Frequent Show Stealers)(Great)(Specialized mains)(All over the radar)(Surprising-but-not-THAT-surpriUlevosing appearances in top 4)(Occasional surprise top 4/frequent top 16)

What makes Pikachu worth mentioning, in your opinion?

Generally curious.

 

[Vyrnx]

I've wondered for a while why Marss and/or Nairo don't pick up Luigi, but then again pretty much every major one of them gets top 8/12.

And ZSS is still pretty amazing