Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Frihetsanka]

Resultwise Diddy Sheik and Cloud are really a tier on it's own. I'd agree with that.

You meant Sheik and not Cloud, right? Cloud is 3rd.

 

[Das Koopa]

Also I'm extending the 1.1.6 list until October before I reset so I can have the convenient October > November > December section.

This just means it'll cover the tail end of SoS

 

[Ninety]

I'm alive, data thread has been updated with the previewed map and tournies & whatnot. Current top 15, Top 16/Weighted:

Spoiler: Top 16 Weighted

Diddy Kong: 409
Sheik: 399
Cloud: 349
Sonic: 281
Fox: 269
Rosalina & Luma: 250.5
Mario: 243.5
Zero Suit Samus: 198.5
Bayonetta: 175.5
Ryu: 143.5
Captain Falcon: 121
Marth: 112.5
Toon Link: 110
Meta Knight: 109
Mewtwo: 108

I'm surprised at Mewtwo's relatively lackluster score, for all the hype he gets from his mains (I've heard people claim he doesn't have a single losing matchup), I would've expected him to rate way higher. Conversely, I'm pleasantly surprised by Falcon and Marth's placings -- considering one is the poster boy for combo-food and "my mid/low tier main has a good matchup on him", and the other one was widely considered trash for the longest time, this is quite a nice surprise.

I'm wondering about the rise of Marth, personally. I get into long arguments every few weeks or so against folks who insist he's still **** (some people REALLY can't let go of sh double fair), and I hear a lot that everything he wants to do Cloud does better. But that aside, he has gotten a fair bit of patch love, albeit nothing that stands out on its own as a game-changer like the Mewtwo, DK or Robin buffs were. While people were happy about his last batch of buffs in 1.1.4, I think most just expected him to scrape out a place just above low tier, not end up with top 15 results. Currently, he's got a few high-level solo mains, as well as top level co-mains in Leo and False. I wonder just why it is that caused him to fly under the radar as he rose in viability seemingly overnight?

 

[Luco]

Mewtwo is interesting because he really only has a few high-level mains (off the top of my head I think of Aba, 9B, Blue, Mew^2, Rich Brown and arguably Killerjawz and Deathorse) who pull in decent results. I think a lot of people over-estimate M2's OoS game - Fair is actually kind of punishable on block and Nair trades with everything under the sun (heard M2 mains refer to it as a 'bad' move on many occasions), and he struggles to deal with that blind spot right behind him.

Does that mean he's not godlike? I dunno, most other areas of his gameplan feel awesome - tip top aerial and grounded mobility, strong hitboxes with range to compliment, kill power coming out the whazoo and does well at edge-guarding whilst being difficult to edge-guard himself (and even ledge-trap given his AD).

He's got a strong MU niche that makes him an incredible secondary/main to deal with most relevant meta-threats, save for Diddy who I've heard is actually a massive roadblock for this character and may prevent him from being solo viable in the future (which isn't to say Aba's win is non-relevant, but considering a lack of dominance since then means we have to consider our possibilities). Time will tell, perhaps. :o

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I think at 11 is really surprising given how a lot of people rate him as a high-ish mid tier on top of not having a lot of top level players. Was Super Smash Con the first time he placed in Top Eight at a super major? I can't remember of the top of my head.

 

[EternalFlare]

I think Sonic exploits a lot of what Bayonetta also takes advantage of, which is autopilot play that arises from an assumption that one's tools can just be thrown out safely without much thought. That's not to say every single person who loses to Sonic is dumb or anything, but that fighting Sonic almost feels like a game of chicken.

Whenever people complain about Sonic, I think, "What do you expect from a character that's supposed to be that fast?"

Same thing goes for Olimar. "Ugh, all he does is avoid attacks and chuck Pikmin." Have you seen what his game is like???

Olimar doesn't get invincibility when he chucks Pikmin. It's not the same thing.

Sonic has the most auto-pilot neutral in the game as it revolves around basically one move that most of the cast can't do anything about consistently. You 100% know it's coming but even with hard reads it's tough to deal with.

If they just took away random invincibility on some of his moves and buffed some of his other moves, Sonic would be better designed. Being fast is fine, but fast and invincible, with that great of a disadvantage state is a bit too much.

I think at 11 is really surprising given how a lot of people rate him as a high-ish mid tier on top of not having a lot of top level players. Was Super Smash Con the first time he placed in Top Eight at a super major? I can't remember of the top of my head.

His list has heavy regional bias. That's why Falcon and Ryu are overrated and Mewtwo is underrated.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Falcon sucks.

Spoiler: VoiD ledgetrap %s

NOTE: These start when the victim is thrown/hit towards the edge(counting the damage that move did+pummels or throws) and end when they successfully reset to neutral, NOT when they successfully hit the person ledgetrapping them.
Decided to do one game per Sheik due to the sheer amount of ledge trap scenarios giving an ample sample size. Buuuut I fell asleep before I could do Mr. R so I'll take care of it tonight.
Fatality(Mario/Falcon) vs VoiD(Sheik):
19%-122% = 103% death conversion
55%-91% = 36% conversion
102%-109% = 7% conversion
27%-46% = 19% conversion
55%-70% = 15% conversion
82%-106% = 24% conversion
106%-136% = 30% death conversion
18%-32% = 14% conversion
40%-95% = 55% conversion
110%-142% = 32% death conversion
0%-22% = 22% conversion
71%-88% = 17% conversion
98%-108% = 10% conversion
68%-96% = 31% conversion. Had the bouncing fish chain but whiffed and lost full control.
130%-130% = Nothing. Failed to react to a roll.
130%-138% = 8% conversion
157%-167% = 10% conversion
167%-183% = 16% death conversion
52%-96% = 44% conversion
43%-43% = Nothing.
67%-67% = Whiffed a grab on the 2f. Got falcon kicked and died.
67%-122% = 55% conversion
136%-155% = 19% conversion
159%-171% = 12% death conversion
53%-76% = 23% conversion
76%-94% = 18% conversion
114%-122% = 8% conversion
122%-128% = 6% conversion
Average:
23%

 

[Nemesis561]

Mewtwo is interesting because he really only has a few high-level mains (off the top of my head I think of Aba, 9B, Blue, Mew^2, Rich Brown and arguably Killerjawz and Deathorse) who pull in decent results. I think a lot of people over-estimate M2's OoS game - Fair is actually kind of punishable on block and Nair trades with everything under the sun (heard M2 mains refer to it as a 'bad' move on many occasions), and he struggles to deal with that blind spot right behind him.

Does that mean he's not godlike? I dunno, most other areas of his gameplan feel awesome - tip top aerial and grounded mobility, strong hitboxes with range to compliment, kill power coming out the whazoo and does well at edge-guarding whilst being difficult to edge-guard himself (and even ledge-trap given his AD).

He's got a strong MU niche that makes him an incredible secondary/main to deal with most relevant meta-threats, save for Diddy who I've heard is actually a massive roadblock for this character and may prevent him from being solo viable in the future (which isn't to say Aba's win is non-relevant, but considering a lack of dominance since then means we have to consider our possibilities). Time will tell, perhaps. :o

Good post , I think part of the reason mewtwo doesn't have a ton of representation is how differently he feels from most of the cast, and his slightly weird playstyle. He's a pretty difficult character to use at a higher level I would say.

Btw I enjoy reading your posts but do you have to use the green font loll? It kills my eyes against the dark background maybe its just me as Im partially color blind

 

[soniczx123]

Olimar doesn't get invincibility when he chucks Pikmin. It's not the same thing.

Sonic has the most auto-pilot neutral in the game as it revolves around basically one move that most of the cast can't do anything about consistently. You 100% know it's coming but even with hard reads it's tough to deal with.

If they just took away random invincibility on some of his moves and buffed some of his other moves, Sonic would be better designed. Being fast is fine, but fast and invincible, with that great of a disadvantage state is a bit too much.



His list has heavy regional bias. That's why Falcon and Ryu are overrated and Mewtwo is underrated.

Did you read my wall of text??

 

[Mr. Johan]

Sonic has three moves with invincibility: the hop from Side B, the hop on the startup from charge release on Usmash, and half of the bounce from Spring.

Usmash enjoys the invincibility on this 1 frame jump, far better than the laggy startup Usmash has on input. He's invincible on the way up with Spring, but without a hitbox going up and a middling landing game without Spin Dash, the invincibility gives him some slight respect with the move. And, Sonic honestly needs the invincibility on Side B. If that wasn't there, Spin Dash would lose to rapid jabs and shield grabs every time.

I want people to try fighting against a Mario or a Diddy without using a single Spin Dash. Hell, even Donkey Kong and Falcon will do. Then they'll realize how important the move is for Sonic.

 

[soniczx123]

Sonic has three moves with invincibility: the hop from Side B, the hop on the startup from charge release on Usmash, and half of the bounce from Spring.

Usmash enjoys the invincibility on this 1 frame jump, far better than the laggy startup Usmash has on input. He's invincible on the way up with Spring, but without a hitbox going up and a middling landing game without Spin Dash, the invincibility gives him some slight respect with the move. And, Sonic honestly needs the invincibility on Side B. If that wasn't there, Spin Dash would lose to rapid jabs and shield grabs every time.

I want people to try fighting against a Mario or a Diddy without using a single Spin Dash. Hell, even Donkey Kong and Falcon will do. Then they'll realize how important the move is for Sonic.

I tried doing that a whole set against a Diddy. Clutched it out game 5 last hit but it's almost impossible.

Do you play Sonic?? You seem quite knowledgeable for being a Robin main B)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sonic has the most auto-pilot neutral in the game as it revolves around basically one move that most of the cast can't do anything about consistently. You 100% know it's coming but even with hard reads it's tough to deal with.

The attitude behind this statement illustrates the correlation between Sonic's success in Japan and the relative lack thereof in the USA perfectly. Because according to the american vox populi Sonic's neutral consists exactly of one move - and that's exactly how a lot of US Sonic players seem to handle the character. Meanwhile the likes of Komorikiri and KEN [and even not as well known Sonics such as Hide] play Sonic like he's an actual character. Needless to say the japanese Sonic players are generally more successful on average and aren't looked down upon for their playstyle unlike somebody like Wrath, who in my opinion is pretty far from playing Sonic optimally. This also applies to Ixis btw whose Sonic is a lot more diverse and creative than your average US Sonic. I bet he'd do a lot better than them if he only had regular practice against top level players.

 

[EternalFlare]

Okey, so as we all know, Sonic is considered a top tier in Smash 4, even after all his nerfs. This is good and all, but it seems like the general consensus of Sonic as a character is misinterpreted by the community. Reasons for this include mass of misinformation from top players and the Sonic community having not fully committed to explaining the character in full detail (Ixis has been working on guide for the past 6-7 months, 4000 words in and not finished) and I'll try to bridge that gap as much as I can while explaining MUs which are troublesome. Hopefully this will spark somekind of meaningful discussion on this thread.

So to start off, MUs.

The MUs that are considered to be of a disadvantage for Sonic in the current metagame are Fox, Megaman, Cloud and ZSS (to lesser extent now thanks to the nerfs) along with Ike and Yoshi depending on which Sonic main you ask. All of theses characters have one thing in common: they either make Sonic commit first or possess options which allows them to beat Spindash with great reward.

Megaman has his pellets which beats it at any range along with granting him stage control, forcing Sonic into shield.
ZSS has nair and her tether grab and we all know her punish game, while not as potent, is still a force to be reckoned with. Fox has pure mobility + DA which sets up perfectly for his superb juggle game. Cloud has his amazing aerial disjoints and Down-B, forcing to approach.

There are also MUs which Sonic doesn't lose per se, but are really hard to if he doesn't play outside his comfort zone. These are the likes of TL, Wii Fit. Basically, characters that forces Sonic to approach. Sonic in his design can't act first in any situation. He always has to wait for the opponent to react first and find any opening in which he can land a SpinDash. I usually draw parallels with Boss Fights in classic Sonic games (Genesis Era). In these fights, go in head on vs them usually resulted in instant death as your moves would just lose to theirs.

So how did you beat them???

You waited for them to act first, and punished them on their endlag with your speed.

That's how Sonic plays in essence, by acting second in every neutral situation. It's emphasized in how his hitboxes work. Most of them are small and attached close to his body, meaning that losing trades is a given most of the time. This is also why most Sonic matches take a long time. He has to respect all of characters options and take his time racking up damage.

I have some quotes from my convo with Ixis to bring my point forth better.

"Sonic matches don't go slow because Sonic's just don't want to approach (except Manny), they go slow because the opponent learns that so much of their neutral actions get punished easily; going aggressive against Sonic in neutral is generally a bad idea so they're inclined to stay grounded and shield and bait a lot and play safe, and Sonic has to play against that game because he can't just up and beat shield like Sheik or Diddy who have amazing dash-grabs"

"Yup, and it's why playing Sonic can seem like a struggle against good or bad characters, because we still have to play around their options, whereas other top tiers can just shut them down completely"

And at last, Sonic's neutral game.

It's all an illusion. An extremely cleaver illusion which most people have just accepted and not bothered to find counterplay to.

"We can cover that ground quickly, but we can't get through shield at the same time, since our dash-grab is terrible and everything else is unsafe. That right there is the core problem with Sonic. Because we can't hit shield with advancing aerials or beat shield with anything on the ground except standing grab, we don't really have a choice but to play neutral and coax them into a sub-neutral state that we can actually beat"

"Not exactly "off of neutral" but to a less desirable state of neutral, like getting them to whiff a poke or short hop too close. Things like that we can punish if we're ready. The difference between other characters and Sonic, is that wheras small actions like those are generally safe against most, it's little stuff like that which Sonic can actually punish quite hard because of SD/SC"

What Ixis means here is that, while Sonic is amazing ground speed and spindash covers a lot of ground for moving hitbox, shielding SpinDash or SpinCharge puts Sonic in an awful situation. as he only has two options: jump or go pass you. By jumping, Sonic goes into an aerial state, which is bad as his aerials are horrible for covering below him.

That means he either has to spring or just fall and hope for the best. Now most people think "just spring and you get away for free". That would be case if Spring sent you so high so you have to stay in the air even longer, making it even more difficult to land because of the lack of landing options. But " just dair and you're fine!". Dair has no disjoint and is extremely predictable if you see what direction Sonic is facing after the spring and will be punished by competent players.

Essentially, he always sent to disadvantage if spindash doesn't connect during every commitment to it.

Here's where Wrath's playstyle comes in.

Wrath is smart player in the fact that he abuses one significant trait that most of the Smash 4 community shares: We have no idea of how Spindash works and therefore see SpinDash Shield Canceling as some godlike option which requires no commitment and always him to pressure from across the stage for free. That's simply incorrect and I have presented conunterplay to that strat multiple times in this thread. Walk up shield is the key. Don't let Sonic get any breathing room. By walking up to him from across the stage, you're mentally pressuring to release SpinDash or he'll eat a punish sooner or later.

I wrote this on a whim, so the structure might be inconsistent.

If you have any questions, free to ask me or @Camalange or @Ixisnaugus (Refer to these two first though, they are more knowledgeable than me)

Thanks for reading and I hope this sparks somekind of discussion!

Sonic's dash grab itself might not have much range but it's more than made up by his mobility. He still has one of the most threatening burst grab ranges because of it. As a result, simply walking up and shielding doesn't accomplish much. You either get grabbed or he spin dashes through and the process repeats. You might be able to bait out a bad option but that's really only if the Sonic loses patience.

Sonic's dair can autocancel so you'd want to interrupt it before he lands which isn't always possible. So it's a perfectly legit landing option as a mixup. His spring does send him really high but that's also not a huge issue when there are platforms to help him land. And he'd much rather be in that position either way then take a typical aerial 50/50.

Anyway he's a top tier thanks to a few very polarizing moves and forces everyone to play his game. Wouldn't it be better if they took away his invincibility but buffed his other mediocre moves? He'd become much more fun to both play and play against and the Sonic complaints would largely cease.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for unique characters and playstyles but when you're optimal strategy is to do 1 move extremely safe move in neutral over and over that can't be punished outside of super hard reads (and often not even then), then that's a pretty poorly designed character in my book. I don't want Sonic to be bad, just more interesting.

 

[soniczx123]

Sonic's dash grab itself might not have much range but it's more than made up by his mobility. He still has one of the most threatening burst grab ranges because of it. As a result, simply walking up and shielding doesn't accomplish much. You either get grabbed or he spin dashes through and the process repeats. You might be able to bait out a bad option but that's really only if the Sonic loses patience.

Sonic's dair can autocancel so you'd want to interrupt it before he lands which isn't always possible. So it's a perfectly legit landing option as a mixup. His spring does send him really high but that's also not a huge issue when there are platforms to help him land. And he'd much rather be in that position either way then take a typical aerial 50/50.

Anyway he's a top tier thanks to a few very polarizing moves and forces everyone to play his game. Wouldn't it be better if they took away his invincibility but buffed his other mediocre moves? He'd become much more fun to both play and play against and the Sonic complaints would largely cease.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for unique characters and playstyles but when you're optimal strategy is to do 1 move extremely safe move in neutral over and over that can't be punished outside of super hard reads (and often not even then), then that's a pretty poorly designed character in my book. I don't want Sonic to be bad, just more interesting.

Dair can be easily read and punished before he lands or you could just read his option after he lands (most shield in fear of an attack)

Platforms help him with landing mixups indeed, which is why tri-platform stages are really good for Sonic (in contrary to what all top players are saying)

Dash grab is still an hard commitment which can be baited. Most Sonic's just prefer to Run Shield Cancel Grab as it has one less frame of startup.

If he's interesting or not is completely subjective. Try playing the character the way you think he's played and you will figure out early on it's way more to it than that.

The attitude behind this statement illustrates the correlation between Sonic's success in Japan and the relative lack thereof in the USA perfectly. Because according to the american vox populi Sonic's neutral consists exactly of one move - and that's exactly how a lot of US Sonic players seem to handle the character. Meanwhile the likes of Komorikiri and KEN [and even not as well known Sonics such as Hide] play Sonic like he's an actual character. Needles to say the japanese Sonic players are generally more successful on average and aren't looked down upon for their playstyle unlike somebody like Wrath, who in my opinion is pretty far from playing Sonic optimally. This also applies to Ixis btw whose Sonic is a lot more diverse and creative than your average US Sonic. I bet he'd do a lot better than them if he only had regular practice against top level players.

Basically everyone but the US have developed counterplay to Spindash, forcing Sonics in these region to adapt.

 

[EternalFlare]

The attitude behind this statement illustrates the correlation between Sonic's success in Japan and the relative lack thereof in the USA perfectly. Because according to the american vox populi Sonic's neutral consists exactly of one move - and that's exactly how a lot of US Sonic players seem to handle the character. Meanwhile the likes of Komorikiri and KEN [and even not as well known Sonics such as Hide] play Sonic like he's an actual character. Needles to say the japanese Sonic players are generally more successful on average and aren't looked down upon for their playstyle unlike somebody like Wrath, who in my opinion is pretty far from playing Sonic optimally. This also applies to Ixis btw whose Sonic is a lot more diverse and creative than your average US Sonic. I bet he'd do a lot better than them if he only had regular practice against top level players.

I've seen Komo's Sonic and from the matches I've seen his neutral also just mainly consists of Spin Dash (cancelling or otherwise).

I mean the move is insanely good, there's no reason for Sonic's NOT to abuse it.

Regardless Komokiri seems to use more Cloud these days so he's probably not the best example anyway.

Dair can be easily read and punished before he lands or you could just read his option after he lands (most shield in fear of an attack)

Platforms help him with landing mixups indeed, which is why tri-platform stages are really good for Sonic (in contrary to what all top players are saying)

Dash grab is still an hard commitment which can be baited. Most Sonic's just prefer to Run Shield Cancel Grab as it has one less frame of startup.

If he's interesting or not is completely subjective. Try playing the character the way you think he's played and you will figure out early on it's way more to it than that.

Every dash grab or dash up shield grab (slightly safer) leaves you open if you miss. That's not unique to Sonic. The fact that you consider it a big deal shows how low commitment Sonic is in general that a general Smash option isn't considered good enough for Sonic mains.

If you're Fox, it's easy to get in a position to up Smash dair before Sonic lands but not every character is that fast. And you have to do it before he lands/as he's landing as it auto cancels.

With that said while I do think Sonic's landing options are above average they are not among the top like Diddy or Sheik. When you've got B-reverses AND side/down Bs, you can't ask for more.

But when it's just about getting out of a bad situation, Sonic's up B takes the cake.

 

[soniczx123]

I've seen Komo's Sonic and from the matches I've seen his neutral also just mainly consists of Spin Dash (cancelling or otherwise).

I mean the move is insanely good, there's no reason for Sonic's NOT to abuse it.

Regardless Komokiri seems to use more Cloud these days so he's probably not the best example anyway.



Every dash grab or dash up shield grab (slightly safer) leaves you open if you miss. That's not unique to Sonic. The fact that you consider it a big deal shows how low commitment Sonic is in general that a general Smash option isn't considered good enough for Sonic mains.

If you're Fox, it's easy to get in a position to up Smash dair before Sonic lands but not every character is that fast. And you have to do it before he lands/as he's landing as it auto cancels.

With that said while I do think Sonic's landing options are above average but not among the top like Diddy or Sheik. When you've got B-reverses AND side/down Bs, you can't ask for more.

But when it's just about getting out of a bad situation, Sonic's fast/invincible up B takes the cake.

Why would I want to escape disadvantage to put myself in a bigger disadvantage??

Please inform of these landing options you deem are "above average".

Fox doesn't even have to Usmash. He can upair in the path where Sonic is dairing and continue juggling him, putting him back at square 1.

 

[EternalFlare]

Why would I want to escape disadvantage to put myself in a bigger disadvantage??

Please inform of these landing options you deem are "above average".

Fox doesn't even have to Usmash. He can upair in the path where Sonic is dairing and continue juggling him, putting him back at square 1.

How do you know Sonic's about to dair? He might choose not to. If Fox jumps and Sonic doesn't dair or does it slightly later he again just lands for free.

Why do I say his landing options are above average? Let's see:

1. AC dair
2. Fast non-freefall up B (which again doesn't put you in major disadvantage if there's platforms nearby which almost all legal tourny stages have)
3. Homing attack. As a mixup this option is extremely strong, if they over commit to an option trying to catch Sonic in the air/upon landing, this off beat attack can both delay your landing and/or easily whiff punish them.
4. Spin dash (which you can jump out of it making it even better).

Compared to the best landing option characters like Diddy, Villager or Sheik this might not seem amazing but it's significantly more than what most of the cast has. In terms of top tiers, these are better options overall than what Fox, Rosalina, Mario or Cloud have for landing at least.

 

[soniczx123]

How do you know Sonic's about to dair? He might choose not to. If Fox jumps and Sonic doesn't dair or does it slightly later he again just lands for free.

Why do I say his landing options are above average? Let's see:

1. AC dair
2. Fast non-freefall up B (which again doesn't put you in major disadvantage if there's platforms nearby which almost all legal tourny stages have)
3. Homing attack. As a mixup this option is extremely strong, if they over commit to an option trying to catch Sonic in the air/upon landing, this off beat attack can both delay your landing and/or easily whiff punish them.
4. Spin dash (which you can jump out of it making it even better).

Compared to the best landing option characters like Diddy, Villager or Sheik this might not seem amazing but it's significantly more than what most of the cast has. In terms of top tiers, these are better options overall than what Fox, Rosalina, Mario or Cloud have for landing at least.

If you wait even for a little bit, you're low for the autocancel to occur, leaving with 34 frames of landing lag. He either dairs immediately, exactly afterward or doesn't do it at all.

What do you mean by fast non-freefall up B? UpB puts in a state which allows only normals to be used, not speicals, until landing.

Homing Attack has too much startup so it's easy to react to. If you notice and just airdodge, the lock-on won't trigger and send Sonic straight down diagonally with lots of endlag on landing.

Spin Dash can work, but it won't have any invincibility and forces you to waste your double jump to get out of that state (you can't airdodge cancel) so it's really easy to interpect.

 

[>Metα<]

If you wait even for a little bit, you're low for the autocancel to occur, leaving with 34 frames of landing lag. He either dairs immediately, exactly afterward or doesn't do it at all.

What do you mean by fast non-freefall up B? UpB puts in a state which allows only normals to be used, not speicals, until landing.

Homing Attack has too much startup so it's easy to react to. If you notice and just airdodge, the lock-on won't trigger and send Sonic straight down diagonally with lots of endlag on landing.

Spin Dash can work, but it won't have any invincibility and forces you to waste your double jump to get out of that state (you can't airdodge cancel) so it's really easy to interpect.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[EternalFlare]

If you wait even for a little bit, you're low for the autocancel to occur, leaving with 34 frames of landing lag. He either dairs immediately, exactly afterward or doesn't do it at all.

What do you mean by fast non-freefall up B? UpB puts in a state which allows only normals to be used, not speicals, until landing.

Homing Attack has too much startup so it's easy to react to. If you notice and just airdodge, the lock-on won't trigger and send Sonic straight down diagonally with lots of endlag on landing.

Spin Dash can work, but it won't have any invincibility and forces you to waste your double jump to get out of that state (you can't airdodge cancel) so it's really easy to interpect.

If you're already high in the air and missed the dair punish, 34 frames of landing lag won't matter as much. At most you'll get an aerial punish which I'd happily take over a charged Smash attack.

Homing attack is punishable if you hadn't already committed to something which is something Sonic is probably the best character at getting you to do. So Sonic won't get away with using this while landing every time but occasionally it's a good option.

All these options are punishable as you've been saying but only if you were prepared for that 1 particular option. If you're expecting dair and they just spin dash away, they land. If you're waiting for the homing attack to punish and the up B to a platform, they land. If you react to the spin dash and try to follow it but they double jump out of it last second, they land etc.

Hence why Sonic has good landing mixups and you rarely see top Sonics getting juggled.

 

[soniczx123]

If you're already high in the air and missed the dair punish, 34 frames of landing lag won't matter. At most you'll get an aerial punish which I'd happily take over a charged Smash attack.

Homing attack is punishable if you hadn't already committed to something which is something Sonic is probably the best character at getting you to do. So Sonic won't get away with using this while landing every time but occasionally it's a good option.

All these options are punishable as you've been saying but only if you were prepared for that 1 particular option. If you're expecting dair and they just spin dash away, they land. If you're waiting for the homing attack to punish and the up B to a platform, they land. If you react to the spin dash and try to follow it but they double jump out of it last second, they land etc.

Hence why Sonic has good landing mixups and you rarely see top Sonics getting juggled.

I never see top Sonic's utilize HA for landing at all.

And sonics rarely get juggled not because they good landing mixups but top players for some reason respect Sonic in the air too much and let him land before they go for a punish. Unless they get uairs or what have you from a confirm, they almost never try to keep Sonic in the air as long as possible, like they are afraid of him up there. Only expections are Clouds and Foxes, who know their Uairs are busted and just abuse the crap out of the blue blur.

 

[EternalFlare]

I never see top Sonic's utilize HA for landing at all.

And sonics rarely get juggled not because they good landing mixups but top players for some reason respect Sonic in the air too much and let him land before they go for a punish. Unless they get uairs or what have you from a confirm, they almost never try to keep Sonic in the air as long as possible, like they are afraid of him up there. Only expections are Clouds and Foxes, who know their Uairs are busted and just abuse the crap out of the blue blur.

I don't even see Clouds or Foxes juggling Sonic for very long, again he has good mixups to get out of the situation. In fact wouldn't an occasional HA be a great option in this situation? Cloud and Fox are going to try to juggle with uairs expecting regular landing and aerial timings, something like HA completely messes that up. Spin dash is another good option, an early one just to slightly shift momentum in the air is something that can get you out of uair traps.

 

[soniczx123]

I don't even see Clouds or Foxes juggling Sonic for very long, again he has good mixups to get out of the situation. In fact wouldn't an occasional HA be a great option in this situation? Cloud and Fox are going to try to juggle with uairs expecting regular landing and aerial timings, something like HA completely messes that up. Spin dash is another good option, an early one just to slightly shift momentum in the air is something that can get you out of uair traps.

Both their Uairs beat both options, no questions asked. That is a huge factor why they have an advantage over Sonic.

 

[EternalFlare]

Both their Uairs beat both options, no questions asked. That is a huge factor why they have an advantage over Sonic.

I'm not saying to challenge the uairs with the moves, just to use them to shift aerial momentum to get out of the situation entirely. The key is avoidance without having to commit to an air dodge. You'll notice characters that can do this safely tend to get juggled far less.

Diddy's side B doesn't beat uairs either, it doesn't mean I can't abuse it by using it to shift momentum just before they are in position to land for free. Sonic's spin dash can be used to the same effect.

 

[soniczx123]

I'm not saying to challenge the uairs with the moves, just to use them to shift aerial momentum to get out of the situation entirely. The key is avoidance without having to commit to an air dodge. You'll notice characters that can do this safely tend to get juggled far less.

Diddy's side B doesn't beat uairs either, it doesn't mean I can't abuse it by using it to shift momentum just before they are in position to land for free. Sonic's spin dash can be used to the same effect.

Fair enough, that works. But now you're stuck in SpinDash animation, meaning your only options keep rolling or jump. By the time you picked one, they would have already landed (due to amazing autocancels) and been able to reset the pressure thanks to their amazing movement stats.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'm not saying to challenge the uairs with the moves, just to use them to shift aerial momentum to get out of the situation entirely. The key is avoidance without having to commit to an air dodge. You'll notice characters that can do this safely tend to get juggled far less.

Diddy's side B doesn't beat uairs either, it doesn't mean I can't abuse it by using it to shift momentum just before they are in position to land for free. Sonic's spin dash can be used to the same effect.

Sonic has enough startup on side/down/neutral special that you can react to it and then punish him for it. Diddy Kong on the other hand shifts momentum almost instantly and can then do it again multiple times with B reverse Banana or Popgun which both cover him so you cant punish him easily. It also helps that Diddy doesn't have disgusting amounts of landing lag on every aerial.

 

[EternalFlare]

Sonic has enough startup on side/down/neutral special that you can react to it and then punish him for it. Diddy Kong on the other hand shifts momentum almost instantly and can then do it again multiple times with B reverse Banana or Popgun which both cover him so you cant punish him easily. It also helps that Diddy doesn't have disgusting amounts of landing lag on every aerial.

I agree his side B is nowhere near as good as Diddy's side or B-reverses for landing. That's why I said Diddy has better landing options overall (easily top 3 in the game imo).

However you're only punishing Sonic's side B startup on reaction if you were already in the perfect spot to do so. If he starts it up high in the air, the chance of you being close enough to double jump uair on reaction are low unless you were already expecting him to do so in that spot. Again, that's not his only possible option and if you put yourself in a position to react to one of his options, it becomes much harder, sometimes impossible to do anything about some other options.

Fair enough, that works. But now you're stuck in SpinDash animation, meaning your only options keep rolling or jump. By the time you picked one, they would have already landed (due to amazing autocancels) and been able to reset the pressure thanks to their amazing movement stats.

If it was a SH fast fall uair then sure, otherwise you probably won't have enough time to fast fall land in a full hop, dash forward and attempt to punish the spin dash. If there are platforms involved where Sonic can land/jump to, then forget about it.

Edit:

I do think Sonic's landing options are significantly worse on FD (still better than most low/mid tiers though) but luckily you can ban it and that's the only tourny legal stages without platforms. But FD also gives Sonic a ton of room to run around so idk...

 

[soniczx123]

If it was a SH fast fall uair then sure, otherwise you probably won't have enough time to fast fall land in a full hop, dash forward and attempt to punish the spin dash. If there are platforms involved where Sonic can land/jump to, then forget about it.

Edit:

I do think Sonic's landing options are significantly worse on FD (still better than most low/mid tiers though) but luckily you can ban it and that's the only tourny legal stages without platforms. But FD also gives Sonic a ton of room to run around so idk...

These uairs cover platforms as well and Sonic still needs go through the screech stop animation or keep rolling even if he lands on a platform.

FD is a horrible pick in these MUs, so you're better off banning it,

 

[EternalFlare]

These uairs cover platforms as well and Sonic still needs go through the screech stop animation or keep rolling even if he lands on a platform.

FD is a horrible pick in these MUs, so you're better off banning it,

He can jump out of spin dash onto a platform for safety.

And at a human level there's no way you are reacting to when and where he goes every-time. We simply can't react fast enough.

If you could, spin dash wouldn't even be a threat in neutral. Because despite it's invincibility on some parts, something like a well timed grab on reaction can totally beat it. But good luck pulling that off at mid range.

Anyway, even if you think his landing options are overrated and people could juggle him better, you can surely admit his landing options are better at least than half of the cast? As that's what I define as above average.

 

[soniczx123]

He can jump out of spin dash onto a platform for safety.

And at a human level there's no way you are reacting to when and where he goes every-time. We simply can't react fast enough.

If you could, spin dash wouldn't even be a threat in neutral. Because despite it's invincibility on some parts, something like a well timed grab on reaction can totally beat it. But good luck pulling that off at mid range.

Anyway, even if you think his landing options are overrated and people could juggle him better, you can surely admit his landing options are better at least than half of the cast? As that's what I define as above average.

They are bad for being a top tier.

Oh, pivot grabbing Spin Dash from midrange is definitely possible, After the invincibility wears off, he's a moving hitboxes loses almost all trades (everyone in the cast has atleast 1-2 non-commital moves that beat spin dash). Spin Dash will only hit you if you get outplayed.

 

[EternalFlare]

They are bad for being a top tier.

Oh, pivot grabbing Spin Dash from midrange is definitely possible, After the invincibility wears off, he's a moving hitboxes loses almost all trades (everyone in the cast has atleast 1-2 non-commital moves that beat spin dash). Spin Dash will only hit you if you get outplayed.

It's not possible on reaction at mid range for most humans, only if it's a read. You'd need broken reaction time. Even then I doubt it considering grab startup = 6 frames and input lag iirc is another 6 frames in this game. Forcing you to react 12 frames earlier right off the bat and spin dash during movement is ridiculously fast. Again if this was actually reliable Sonic would become irrelevant.

And so it's generally not a good idea because he gets to whiff punish you if you are wrong on your read. I was recently watching ZSS vs Sonic and this exactly happened. He kept trying to predict the Sonic's approaches with grab and was getting whiff punished. Granted he still won thanks to ZSS's great punish game but meh.

Bad for a top tier? We've been over this. Rosalina, Cloud, Mario, Fox all have worse landing options and are all widely considered top tier. That leaves Diddy, Sheik, arguably ZSS and Mewtwo with better landing options. So as far as top tiers go, Sonic is right in the middle.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Stuff.........

I think im about done here with this. Cause you are not getting what I am telling you and you just keep saying stuff that makes no sense. You go on about speed like its your omega power and it means everything. It isnt. I used I brought up Peach vs Pika cause pika is Faster then Peach and has quick attack stuff on top of that. And yet Peach still puts him down. Thus the point of speed not being everything like you make it out to be. And yet you judge wanna dodge the bullet and say stuff stuff like:

"So because Peach wins the Pikachu match up, or a few Peach players win versus a fast character, you disregard the significance of mobility?"
​

No dude, no. Are you seriously reading what I am telling you?. Then u going on about that I said people will kill with a turnip follow up under around 20%. How you even get this in your brain? I never said that and not the point. And the rest of the sections within this post is you doing similar responses like this. You are not paying attention to what I am telling you, you don't get the point I am making and you twist things around way too much so you can have it in your favor. And you are gonna keep doing this and judging stuff. I don't wanna do this anymore if this is what you gonna keep doing. So im done.

I said what I had to say and the point is this match-up is not as bad as people cry about so much and people like you overrate. If I have to make you work to hit me, then the match is not terrible. That simple. A Mk that knows how to deal/option with all of Peachs options has never fight a Peach that knows how to deal/respond to all of MK options. Thus judging a match up on something that has never happen. If you wanna think this match up so bad and Peach cant make MK work for the win then go ahead. You can have your opinion and nothing wrong with it. I came here to educate people on something others are going overboard with. And I already did that. So mission complete.

 

[soniczx123]

It's not possible on reaction at mid range for most humans, only if it's a read. You'd need broken reaction time. Even then I doubt it considering grab startup = 6 frames and input lag iirc is another 6 frames in this game. Forcing you to react 12 frames earlier right off the bat and spin dash during movement is ridiculously fast. Again if this was actually reliable Sonic would become irrelevant.

And so it's generally not a good idea because he gets to whiff punish you if you are wrong on your read. I was recently watching ZSS vs Sonic and this exactly happened. He kept trying to predict the Sonic's approaches with grab and was getting whiff punished. Granted he still won thanks to ZSS's great punish game but meh.

Bad for a top tier? We've been over this. Rosalina, Cloud, Mario, Fox all have worse landing options and are all widely considered top tier. That leaves Diddy, Sheik, arguably ZSS and Mewtwo with better landing options. So as far as top tiers go, Sonic is right in the middle.

Cloud and Mario, are you seriously right now?? Both of them possess great air speed, allowing them to traverse in the air to easily mixup their landing. Mario got the cape for stalling and Cloud got dair covering his entire bottom. Rosa has Luma as a guardian, so commiting against her without the correct spacing is deadly. Other than Fox falling really fast, i'm not too informed in his landing options so I can't comment on that.

>Metα< Could you enlighten us on Fox's landing options??

You don't even need to grab, but the option is there. The easiest thing to is either beat it with a hitbox or take it on shield and punish Sonics options afterward, which I have said before, are severely limited.

 

[EternalFlare]

Cloud and Mario, are you seriously right now?? Both of them possess great air speed, allowing them to traverse in the air to easily mixup their landing. Mario got the cape for stalling and Cloud got dair covering his entire bottom. Rosa has Luma as a guardian, so commiting against her without the correct spacing is deadly. Other than Fox falling really fast, i'm not too informed in his landing options so I can't comment on that.

>Metα< Could you enlighten us on Fox's landing options??

You don't even need to grab, but the option is there. The easiest thing to is either beat it with a hitbox or take it on shield and punish Sonics options afterward, which I have said before, are severely limited.

So to get this straight, you are claiming characters without an ability to shift aerial momentum with special moves have better landing options than someone that does?

Cloud and Rosa's only landing mixup is attack or no attack. Their B-reverses either suck or are non existent. Disjoints aren't terrific landing options when it's the ONLY option you have, it's easy to predict and whiff punish. You move out of the way of Cloud's dair hitbox and punish it from the side. It's not hard when you know it's one of the only things Cloud can do in the situation.

Mario's cape only very slightly delays his landing and doesn't do jack to save him from uair juggles.

Fox's shine can be used to delay his landing but is just too laggy to be reliable especially as he descends slowly meaning he's screwed if he doesn't have a double jump. His side B if done as a landing mixup has massive lag as well (he can't act out of it until a very long period of time, you'll land long before then). Plus he can't mix up where he goes after like Sonic with spin dash + jump, it's just a linear straight land. Let's not forget his falling speed makes him combo/juggle food.

Air speed isn't as good as the ability to completely change which way you are about to land entirely.

And you're still expecting people to react magically to everything Sonic does.

"Oh you're at mid range and he began moving forward with a lighting fast spin dash? No worries, just throw out a move, interrupt it on reaction. I'm sure since we're all cyborgs with frame perfect reaction times it's a cakewalk! lolz"

I truly hope you realize if what you are suggesting was possible Sonic would be irrelevant as a character and you'd have probably switched to another character. People don't punish Sonic consistently not because they're idiots, but because it's physically impossible to do so on reaction.

 

[soniczx123]

So to get this straight, you are claiming characters without an ability to shift aerial momentum with special moves have better landing options than someone that does?

Cloud and Rosa's only landing mixup is attack or no attack. Their B-reverses either suck or are non existent. Disjoints aren't terrific landing options when it's the ONLY option you have, it's easy to predict and whiff punish. You move out of the way of Cloud's dair hitbox and punish it from the side. It's not hard when you know it's one of the only things Cloud can do in the situation.

Mario's cape only very slightly delays his landing and doesn't do jack to save him from uair juggles.

Fox's shine is just too laggy to throw out and his side B if done as a landing mixup has massive lag as well (he can't act out of it until a very long period of time, you'll land long before then). Plus he can't mix up where he goes after like Sonic with spin dash, it's just a linear straight land. Let's not forget his falling speed makes him combo/juggle food.

Air speed isn't as good as the ability to completely change which way you are about to land entirely.

And you're still expecting people to react magically to everything Sonic does.

"Oh you're at mid range and he began moving forward with a lighting fast spin dash? No worries, just throw out a move, interrupt it on reaction. I'm sure since we're all cyborgs with frame perfect reaction times it's a cakewalk! lolz"

I truly hope you realize if what you are suggesting was possible Sonic would be irrelevant as a character and you'd have probably switched to another character. People don't punish Sonic consistently not because they're idiots, but because it's physically impossible to do so on reaction.

Spin Dash falls straight down diagonally. That's it. Spin charge is more horizontal, but not completely straight.

Air speed allows you change horizontal position more seamlessly than those without it. Couple that with a good airdodge (Both of them have run of the mill ADs) and throwing out hitboxes aren't your only option.

I'm not saying that everyone should react to SpinDash. I'm advising people to be more aware of what options Sonic possess during a spindash so you know what to cover during the whole the exchange.

This won't make Sonic irrelevent, it will just force us to figure out new ways to outsmart the opponent in neutral with new ways to bait options without spindash (Like running or WBSDSC etc.)

I never commented on Fox's landing options. I asked a fellow Fox player to enlighten us.

 

[EternalFlare]

Spin Dash falls straight down diagonally. That's it. Spin charge is more horizontal, but not completely straight.

Air speed allows you change horizontal position more seamlessly than those without it. Couple that with a good airdodge (Both of them have run of the mill ADs) and throwing out hitboxes aren't your only option.

I'm not saying that everyone should react to SpinDash. I'm advising people to be more aware of what options Sonic possess during a spindash so you know what to cover during the whole the exchange.

This won't make Sonic irrelevent, it will just force us to figure out new ways to outsmart the opponent in neutral with new ways to bait options without spindash (Like running or WBSDSC etc.)

I never commented on Fox's landing options. I asked a fellow Fox player to enlighten us.

Air dodges have landing lag so once they are low enough, they are no longer good options. Plus they are universal options so they aren't relevant when we are discussing character specific anti-juggle/landing options.

Air speed no matter how fast doesn't allow opposite positional shifts especially right before landing. Or to put it another way say Cloud is drifting to the left in the air, at this point he can't immediately start drifting right at maximum speed. So you know the general spot he's about to land and can catch his landing rather easily. But with momentum shifting moves you can pretend to be about to land somewhere than completely change your actual landing position. It's why Cloud gets juggled for days versus Rosalina but Diddy and Sheik do not. They don't have to take the 50/50s at all.

You can jump out of Spin Dash. That's huge. So it's linear trajectory (not really linear compared to Fox's side B but w/e) isn't as relevant. Again technically you can do things out of Fox's side B too but not until much later, you'll likely land with massive lag long before then.

My point is the entire reason spin dash is relevant is because you can't react to it at close ranges. That's why baiting with it is so effective in the first place. Eventually the Sonic's opponent will throw out a move hoping it intercepts spin dash or Sonic in general and if he guessed wrong, he gets punished. So to imply people can just punish it on reaction is silly, Sonic's gameplan is entirely dependant on humans NOT being able to do this.

 

[Locke 06]

Okay this conversation is killing me.

Spindash has startup (the hop you loath) before moving extremely fast. And slow spindash is slower than his run. Max spindash can't be shield canceled. Are you thinking about spincharge? Because they're different. Sonic spindashes in the air and.............. ? The fact that you're talking about Sonic's landing options and not even talking about "Spinshot" means you don't know what you're talking about.

Pls stop.

Also, pls don't make WBSDSC (WaveBounce SpinDash Shield Cancel) an acronym. There has to be a better way.

 

[soniczx123]

Air dodges have landing lag so once they are low enough, they are no longer good options. Plus they are universal options so they aren't relevant when we are discussing character specific anti-juggle/landing options.

Air speed doesn't allow opposite positional shifts. Or to put it another way say Cloud is drifting to the left in the air, at this point he can't immediately start drifting right at maximum speed. So you know the general spot he's about to land and can catch his landing rather easily. But with momentum shifting moves you can pretend to be about to land somewhere than completely change your actual landing position. It's why Cloud gets juggled for days versus Rosalina but Diddy and Sheik do not. They don't have to take the 50/50s at all.

You can jump out of Spin Dash. That's huge. So it's linear trajectory (not really linear compared to Fox's side B but w/e) isn't as relevant. Again technically you can do things out of Fox's side B too but not until much later, you'll likely land with massive lag long before then.

My point is the entire reason spin dash is relevant is because you can't react to it at close ranges. That's why baiting with it is so effective in the first place. Eventually the Sonic's opponent will throw out a move hoping it intercepts spin dash or Sonic in general and if he guessed wrong, he gets punished. So to imply people can just punish it on reaction is silly, Sonic's gameplan is entirely dependant on humans NOT being able to do this.

That's exactly what I said in previous regarding Sonic's gameplan LMAO. I never mentioned that it could be punished on reaction. You're ignoring that I mentioned you can read it and punish accordingly cause the options out of spin dash are limited.

You make it sound like there's no counterplay for spindash at all and you just have eat it.

Okay this conversation is killing me.

Spindash has startup (the hop you loath) before moving extremely fast. And slow spindash is slower than his run. Max spindash can't be shield canceled. Are you thinking about spincharge? Because they're different. Sonic spindashes in the air and.............. ? The fact that you're talking about Sonic's landing options and not even talking about "Spinshot" means you don't know what you're talking about.

Pls stop.

I want to (need to go bed, first day of school tomorrow) but i'll lose the argument if I leave it like this.

 

[EternalFlare]

Okay this conversation is killing me.

Spindash has startup (the hop you loath) before moving extremely fast. And slow spindash is slower than his run. Max spindash can't be shield canceled. Are you thinking about spincharge? Because they're different. Sonic spindashes in the air and.............. ? The fact that you're talking about Sonic's landing options and not even talking about "Spinshot" means you don't know what you're talking about.

Pls stop.

We are referring to the time it takes for Spin Dash from moving forward to reaching you. Not the startup. Reacting to the startup is irrelevant, that's not what you are attempting to punish (unless you're ZSS or something). The hop+movement on the ground is way too fast to react to at mid-close ranges, it's why Sonics get away with using it so predictably even at top level play. They wait until you are too close to react to it, get past you, rinse and repeat. Add in fakes with shield cancels here and there and it becomes even harder to deal with.

Also my argument has been that Sonic's landing options are quite good, above average. And somehow you think mentioning yet another option that I didn't know about....weakens my argument? Lol. Talk about irony.

That's exactly what I said in previous regarding Sonic's gameplan LMAO. I never mentioned that it could be punished on reaction. You're ignoring that I mentioned you can read it and punish accordingly cause the options out of spin dash are limited.

You make it sound like there's no counterplay for spindash at all and you just have eat it.

Actually you said you could pivot grab spin dash at mid range after I said it was not possible to grab on reaction from that close. Nevertheless I'm glad you admit it's not possible now.

 

[soniczx123]

We are referring to the time it takes for Spin Dash from moving forward to reaching you. Not the startup. Reacting to the startup is irrelevant, that's not what you are attempting to punish (unless you're ZSS or something). The hop+movement on the ground is way too fast to react to at mid-close ranges, it's why Sonics get away with using it so predictably even at top level play. They wait until you are too close to react to it, get past you, rinse and repeat. Add in fakes with shield cancels here and there and it becomes even harder to deal with.



Actually you said you could pivot grab spin dash at mid range after I said it was not possible to grab on reaction from that close.

You can, I've been pivot grabbed by Mario's and Ike for example. It's possible if you read and then time it right. Not React, Predict.