Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

Just want to remind everyone, that once theory has been proven to be false it is no longer theory.

It is misinformation and should be ignored.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Just want to remind everyone, that once theory has been proven to be false it is no longer theory.

It is misinformation and should be ignored.

This post needs to be on the front page of every fighting game forum ever.

 

[ZcK]

I mean Shulk can switch between being the fastest character, the heaviest character, the character with the best damage output, killpower and recovery at will all while massively reducing lag on every single one of his moves in the process.

Now this is the perfect example of what is the problem with "theory" as in it fails to account most of the problems while fanatically being blinded by the good that comes with it. Though, is understandable why it would fail to take into account everything as we are not robots, but then again derailing to the point of fantasy can be hurtful to the meta of certain character.

By the way
Second fastest character with the damage output of sheik but not her frame data.
Heaviest character (Though in reality what Shield modifies is the knockbalt dealt not shulk weight) slower than Ganon.
Buster is nuts
Jump is really nice to recover, and it would be perfect if shulk recovery snapped the ledge.
Killpower at the cost of having the lowest damage output of the game and thus worst shield safety, it is so bad that a stalled f-air will do 1%

Also:

massively reducing lag on every single one of his moves in the process

As in how? He can only reduce the lag on his aerials if the art activates in time, mind you. And even then he still is stuck with all of his attacks but jab, grab and vision having no less than 10 frames of start up.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pretty sure you've missed my point completely.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

It saddens me how many people think Roy is a poorly designed character that cant possibly work.

In my opinion, the only thing that Roy would need to be good is increased damage and knockback on his hilted attacks. That's all. I know that could be interpreted as lazy because anyone could become decent with just a "numbers tweak". If you just threw 10 extra damage on every one of Dedede's attacks, he'd be good too. But the reason I especially feel this way with Roy is because I just don't see anything inherently wrong with his kit. Every move he has has a use, you can't say that for many of the characters in this game. He has tons of combos and mix ups to play around with. Hell we even see similar characters in Marth and Lucina that are fully functional, nobody has any issue with their "design". The mistake they made with Roy is making his hilted attacks less or equally rewarding than Marth's tippered attacks. Its like they thought having a sweetspot at the hilt was just as good as the tipper, like it was a fair trade. They did make Roy significantly faster than Marth, and five units heavier as well, so I believe they had some idea that this wasn't as good, but sadly it just wasn't enough. If Roy just got more reward out of his attacks he would be fine.

The only real flaw in his design is that he doesn't have any safe way to kill at any reasonable percent. Sure you could land a smash attack for an early kill, but lots of characters can do that. It just isn't practical at a high skill level. He doesn't need a move like Diddy's down tilt that would combo into Blazer or anything like that, if his moves just hit harder this problem would be solved. He doesn't have to play a zoning game like Marth and Lucina. In fact, I'm glad he doesn't, because it would be really stupid to have him if he played like those characters. His different playstyle is why I enjoy Roy but do not play either of his semi clones.

In short so I don't ramble too much, Roy just isn't rewarded for his efforts as much as many other characters are. Landing his hilted tilts and aerials should just do more damage and/or knockback then they do,

 

[C0rvus]

When your design is anti-Marth, and most of the time, Marth is a very good character, is it any wonder Roy's baisc design is seen as mediocre? Granted, he's just undertuned in both of his canon incarnations, almost comically so in Melee. At the moment, his game states are a bit bottom heavy.

 

[ZcK]

Pretty sure you've missed my point completely.

For what is worth, I have not. I used your satiric post of how deluded some theories can be, to better express my point of how theories dont account for everything (I do however think that theories that fail to work may shed some light on what is fundamentally wrong with a character), even when they are seriously well-thought. Also you were spreading misinformation.

 

[Luco]

I realise this is more relevant to the Sumabato thread hype, but I think it's noteworthy enough to post here - Atelier lost 2-0 to Gackt, a relatively unknown main in winners at Sumabato. This MU obviously sees a lot of upsets at mid level play and lower but this may legitimately be one of (the?) first times this result has occurred at a high level of play. Don't know how notable it is given Kirihara's performances have been more notable as of late but it's pretty cool especially as I hadn't heard of Gackt before.

Gackt is now set to fight Taiheta in top 32, who beat 9B the round before. PK kids hype!

*back to the Sumabato thread, where Earth is out at 33rd because reasons*

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I realise this is more relevant to the Sumabato thread hype, but I think it's noteworthy enough to post here - Atelier lost 2-0 to Gackt, a relatively unknown main in winners at Sumabato. This MU obviously sees a lot of upsets at mid level play and lower but this may legitimately be one of (the?) first times this result has occurred at a high level of play. Don't know how notable it is given Kirihara's performances have been more notable as of late but it's pretty cool especially as I hadn't heard of Gackt before.

Gackt is now set to fight Taiheta in top 32, who beat 9B the round before. PK kids hype!

*back to the Sumabato thread, where Earth is out at 33rd because reasons*

I legitimately believe Ness-Rosa is not that terrible for Ness. It's bad yes, Ness loses most the time but I feel like it's more manageable than it used to be I think people get caught up on the recovery issue (Which is a really big issue mind you) more than they should when discussing this MU

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So that shield-to-counter thing I linked a few pages back doesn't work with Bayonetta, I just tested it myself to confirm. I'm not really sure why; clearly Witch Time is programmed differently on a fundamental level (also see: working vs. KO Punch) but I'm not sure of the technical details.

Tests were done vs. Cloud dair and Ryu side special; Bayonetta failed to counter either after shielding, but it worked fine with Corrin.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

False is making a tier list on rush hour smash if anyone's interested

 

[juddy96]

I realise this is more relevant to the Sumabato thread hype, but I think it's noteworthy enough to post here - Atelier lost 2-0 to Gackt, a relatively unknown main in winners at Sumabato. This MU obviously sees a lot of upsets at mid level play and lower but this may legitimately be one of (the?) first times this result has occurred at a high level of play. Don't know how notable it is given Kirihara's performances have been more notable as of late but it's pretty cool especially as I hadn't heard of Gackt before.

Gackt is now set to fight Taiheta in top 32, who beat 9B the round before. PK kids hype!

*back to the Sumabato thread, where Earth is out at 33rd because reasons*

Gackt got 5th/128 at TUS Tournament 5 last month, he's fairly decent

 

[Wintermelon43]

False is making a tier list on rush hour smash if anyone's interested

Oh god.

 

[blackghost]

So that shield-to-counter thing I linked a few pages back doesn't work with Bayonetta, I just tested it myself to confirm. I'm not really sure why; clearly Witch Time is programmed differently on a fundamental level (also see: working vs. KO Punch) but I'm not sure of the technical details.

Tests were done vs. Cloud dair and Ryu side special; Bayonetta failed to counter either after shielding, but it worked fine with Corrin.

I discussed it's difference. a while back as a bayo main I'm not shocked. did you get batwithin when you tried to witch time?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I discussed it's difference. a while back as a bayo main I'm not shocked. did you get batwithin when you tried to witch time?

No Bat Within either. She just did her cartwheel.

 

[Yoshister]

Oh god.

Is what people say when you say that you're making a tier list.

In my opinion, the only thing that Roy would need to be good is increased damage and knockback on his hilted attacks. That's all.

The only real flaw in his design is that he doesn't have any safe way to kill at any reasonable percent. Sure you could land a smash attack for an early kill, but lots of characters can do that. It just isn't practical at a high skill level.

This. ^

People act like Roy has way more kill power than he really does.

He has about four really solid kill moves: Side smash, Up smash, Blazer, and Dash attack (Roll reads ho).
Flare Blade takes too long.

His tilts may do pretty solid damage, but they don't have the power of a Smash attack by any means (Dat boy ain't Ike). 120%-140% is okay, but not good enough considering how Roy has to be up close.
Down smash is lol.

Roy's kill power isn't bad, but it should be better than it currently is considering that Roy has to be up close (A somewhat unsafe position considering that he has eh recovery and is combo food) to do decent damage.

 

[PK Gaming]

I realise this is more relevant to the Sumabato thread hype, but I think it's noteworthy enough to post here - Atelier lost 2-0 to Gackt, a relatively unknown main in winners at Sumabato. This MU obviously sees a lot of upsets at mid level play and lower but this may legitimately be one of (the?) first times this result has occurred at a high level of play. Don't know how notable it is given Kirihara's performances have been more notable as of late but it's pretty cool especially as I hadn't heard of Gackt before.

Gackt is now set to fight Taiheta in top 32, who beat 9B the round before. PK kids hype!

*back to the Sumabato thread, where Earth is out at 33rd because reasons*

Ness just isn't a character you can write off, ever.

He's got so many flaws on paper, but once you get into an actual match with one and it's totally different. We've got this ultra strong Ness player at our local and he always manages to turn it around in matchups where he's getting worked.

That's why I don't think he'll ever fade into obscurity or be surpassed by Lucas even. He's just too dangerous when you're at high %.

 

[EternalFlare]

Ness just isn't a character you can write off, ever.

He's got so many flaws on paper, but once you get into an actual match with one it's totally different. We've got this ultra strong Ness player at our local and he always manages to turn it around in matchups where he's getting worked.

That's why I don't think he'll ever fade into obscurity or be surpassed by Lucas even. He's just too dangerous when you're at high %.

Ness does seem to have some of the best kill power in the game. Not many characters can boast having aerials with such fast startups with that kind of KO power. For some perspective Ness's bair and uair have more kill power than Cloud or Ryu's bair/uairs. And then of course there's his backthrow. In that sense, he seems like a weaker version of Mewtwo (up throw is obviously better as a kill throw than back throw) and Mewtwo's fair is arguably the best side kill aerial in the game.

I also think his recovery is underrated. For most characters, it's scary to challenge his up B moreso than any other recovery move as you can die really early because you were a second too late. You can certainly DI down and just tech the stage but that's not something most players would want to risk in a tournament setting.

And a Ness that knows how to mix up when and where he up Bs is tough to gimp even when you take away his double jump. Good Ness players don't just do it at the same spot every time. Not to mention, there's always his wall bounce double up B for further safety. He's definitely more gimpable than a lot of characters but it's not nearly as free as people assume without having played a good Ness.

 

[LancerStaff]

It saddens me how many people think Roy is a poorly designed character that cant possibly work.

In my opinion, the only thing that Roy would need to be good is increased damage and knockback on his hilted attacks. That's all. I know that could be interpreted as lazy because anyone could become decent with just a "numbers tweak". If you just threw 10 extra damage on every one of Dedede's attacks, he'd be good too. But the reason I especially feel this way with Roy is because I just don't see anything inherently wrong with his kit. Every move he has has a use, you can't say that for many of the characters in this game. He has tons of combos and mix ups to play around with. Hell we even see similar characters in Marth and Lucina that are fully functional, nobody has any issue with their "design". The mistake they made with Roy is making his hilted attacks less or equally rewarding than Marth's tippered attacks. Its like they thought having a sweetspot at the hilt was just as good as the tipper, like it was a fair trade. They did make Roy significantly faster than Marth, and five units heavier as well, so I believe they had some idea that this wasn't as good, but sadly it just wasn't enough. If Roy just got more reward out of his attacks he would be fine.

The only real flaw in his design is that he doesn't have any safe way to kill at any reasonable percent. Sure you could land a smash attack for an early kill, but lots of characters can do that. It just isn't practical at a high skill level. He doesn't need a move like Diddy's down tilt that would combo into Blazer or anything like that, if his moves just hit harder this problem would be solved. He doesn't have to play a zoning game like Marth and Lucina. In fact, I'm glad he doesn't, because it would be really stupid to have him if he played like those characters. His different playstyle is why I enjoy Roy but do not play either of his semi clones.

In short so I don't ramble too much, Roy just isn't rewarded for his efforts as much as many other characters are. Landing his hilted tilts and aerials should just do more damage and/or knockback then they do,

I don't think that'll really help unless it's something crazy like 5% on every attack. Play safe, get counter poked harder. Play risky aaaand you might as well pick Mac and side B off the stage. I mean, occasionally you'll get a ton of damage off but nine times out of ten you're getting hit just as hard. Math doesn't work out.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ness just isn't a character you can write off, ever.

He's got so many flaws on paper, but once you get into an actual match with one it's totally different. We've got this ultra strong Ness player at our local and he always manages to turn it around in matchups where he's getting worked.

That's why I don't think he'll ever fade into obscurity or be surpassed by Lucas even. He's just too dangerous when you're at high %.

This is a better explanation of what I tried to say before with Ness vs Lucas.

For all of the tricks and whatnot Lucas can try to pull out... and the end of the day Ness has his insane aerials and Bthrow. That's really all he needs to stay ahead of Lucas. They're just that consistent of amazing tools. Even if Lucas in better than Ness in other areas, they don't match those few key things.

 

[Nobie]

People downplay Ness's back throw because Mewtwo's up throw exists and that one is less influenced by position.

Don't let them trick you. Ness's back throw is still probably the best kill throw in the game. Its power is so above all other throws that the only time it's really not practical is when you're all the other way on the other side of the stage.

Also, I wonder about Cloud's position because he seems to have weirdly even matchups scattered across the lower tiers. People talk as if Cloud takes a huge dump on the bottom half of the cast but that doesn't look to be the case at all.

 

[EternalFlare]

People downplay Ness's back throw because Mewtwo's up throw exists and that one is less influenced by position.

Don't let them trick you. Ness's back throw is still probably the best kill throw in the game. Its power is so above all other throws that the only time it's really not practical is when you're all the other way on the other side of the stage.

Also, I wonder about Cloud's position because he seems to have weirdly even matchups scattered across the lower tiers. People talk as if Cloud takes a huge dump on the bottom half of the cast but that doesn't look to be the case at all.

If you are near the centre on most tournament stages or worse, won't Mewtwo's throw kill earlier or at least nearly as early? Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have Mewtwo to compare them).

Which means it's a better kill option in most situations.

Also apparently rage affects vertical KOs more than horizontal KOs so it would benefit more from rage.

But Ness definitely has the second best kill throw.

As for 3rd I have no idea. Maybe Smash Shulk?

 

[Ethan7]

Mewtwo's u-throw doesn't KO much earlier than other vertical throws. It kills at like 130% with no rage. Others like Link's or Corrin's for example might kill at like 150% with now rage.

Ness's b-throw can kill earlier than 130% if by the ledge and still kills early if away from the ledge.

I don't really hear people complain about Mewtwo's u-throw (I don't think I ever have), but I do hear people complain about Ness and his b-throw. I don't know how rage would affect vertical and horizontal throws.

 

[Kofu]

I don't think that'll really help unless it's something crazy like 5% on every attack. Play safe, get counter poked harder. Play risky aaaand you might as well pick Mac and side B off the stage. I mean, occasionally you'll get a ton of damage off but nine times out of ten you're getting hit just as hard. Math doesn't work out.

I don't think you understand the impact a few added percent on an attack can have on kill power, among other things.

An added 1 or 2% on Roy's hilted attacks would add up over the course of a game on top of increasing their kill power.

 

[EternalFlare]

Mewtwo's u-throw doesn't KO much earlier than other vertical throws. It kills at like 130% with no rage. Others like Link's or Corrin's for example might kill at like 150% with now rage.

Ness's b-throw can kill earlier than 130% if by the ledge and still kills early if away from the ledge.

I don't really hear people complain about Mewtwo's u-throw (I don't think I ever have), but I do hear people complain about Ness and his b-throw. I don't know how rage would affect vertical and horizontal throws.

This is a pretty old post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2r9mc3/smash_4_an_indepth_look_at_the_rage_and_how_it/

But according to it vertical knockback moves are affected significantly more by rage than horizontal knockback moves.

 

[L9999]

Mewtwo's u-throw doesn't KO much earlier than other vertical throws. It kills at like 130% with no rage. Others like Link's or Corrin's for example might kill at like 150% with now rage.

Ness's b-throw can kill earlier than 130% if by the ledge and still kills early if away from the ledge.

I don't really hear people complain about Mewtwo's u-throw (I don't think I ever have), but I do hear people complain about Ness and his b-throw. I don't know how rage would affect vertical and horizontal throws.

Ness is salt inducing as he is due to his clutch factor (PKT2/B-Throw/Uair/D-Smash 2-frames), and most of the people that complain about B-Throw don't know that messing around at the ledge at high % is not a good idea, and if they do know, they insist on doing aerials without proper spacing or picking the same ledge option over and over again because they think Ness can't do something about it. With Mewtwo is like, "I was dead anyways" because if M2 didn't killed you with Shadow Ball/Fair/Up Smash/Dair you were bound to die to Up Throw anyways and it doesn't kill at low enough %s to get salty. (Delicious salt of lightweight players that don't know aerials have landing lag.....).

 

[EternalFlare]

This is a better explanation of what I tried to say before with Ness vs Lucas.

For all of the tricks and whatnot Lucas can try to pull out... and the end of the day Ness has his insane aerials and Bthrow. That's really all he needs to stay ahead of Lucas. They're just that consistent of amazing tools. Even if Lucas in better than Ness in other areas, they don't match those few key things.

Lucas technically can also kill off throws. But his down throw to up air combo will stop working after their percent gets too high or he has too much rage(?) so it won't work as often. His back throw has decent kill power at the very edge only. Plus his grab is obviously worse than Ness both with a slower startup and much more ending lag. So overall Ness definitely has the much better kill throw.

But Lucas has a safer, arguably better projectile than Ness and a significantly better recovery. So in matchups where Ness getting gimped is a major issue or where playing keep away is more optimal, Lucas is arguably better.

Also would it be fair to say Lucas has a better combo game than Ness? Ness's down throw to multiple fair combos only work if they don't DI in (which you should as then you only take an up air). But Lucas seems to get bigger conversions off at least from my experience.

Ness is salt inducing as he is due to his clutch factor (PKT2/B-Throw/Uair/D-Smash 2-frames), and most of the people that complain about B-Throw don't know that messing around at the ledge at high % is not a good idea, and if they do know, they insist on doing aerials without proper spacing or picking the same ledge option over and over again because they think Ness can't do something about it. With Mewtwo is like, "I was dead anyways" because if M2 didn't killed you with Shadow Ball/Fair/Up Smash/Dair you were bound to die to Up Throw anyways and it doesn't kill at low enough %s to get salty. (Delicious salt of lightweight players that don't know aerials have landing lag.....).

I'd also like to add that Ness is perfect for destroying low level aggressive players.

They just run into dash back PK fires which beats all their grounded options (and they aren't going to think about simply jumping over it) and get comboed for days because of it. Not to mention they give you ample opportunities to land grab and bair/uair punishes and unlike with other characters, these options finish them off at decent percents. Let's not forget up B gimmicks either (NEVER air dodge into the ground versus PK thunder, it's better to take 1000 jolts in the air and land elsewhere and not die at 60).

So early on in the meta I feel that's one reason there were so many Ness complaints. At lower levels flowchart Ness will seem broken. Then at higher levels his disadvantaged state becomes more exploitable and he has a much harder time getting in for his potential early kills.

 

[Piipp]

Lucas technically can also kill off throws. But his down throw to up air combo will stop working after their percent gets too high or he has too much rage(?) so it won't work as often. His back throw has decent kill power at the very edge only. Plus his grab is obviously worse than Ness both with a slower startup and much more ending lag. So overall Ness definitely has the much better kill throw.

But Lucas has a safer, arguably better projectile than Ness and a significantly better recovery. So in matchups where Ness getting gimped is a major issue or where playing keep away is more optimal, Lucas is arguably better.

Also would it be fair to say Lucas has a better combo game than Ness? Ness's down throw to fair combos only work if they don't DI in (which you should as then you only take an up air). But Lucas seems to get bigger conversions off at least from my experience.

Lucas does have a good combo game. However, I wouldn't say that its better or worse than Ness' due to the sole fact that SDI'ing out of Lucas' nair strings is fairly easy. But I don't think that one's combo game is much better than the others. To combo with Lucas, you have to read SDI and even when you do that, it could affect the follow-up you're trying for after the nair, assuming Nair is what you're using to combo off of. Ex. Fair, Uair, sometimes Dair.

Lucas has a better recovery, PK Fire, and spacing game than Ness. However, I think that the only things keeping Ness afloat and slightly above Lucas are his strong set of aerials and his backthrow. That isn't enough for some MUs though. People do argue that a Ness/Lucas duo is one of the best character lineups that you can have because they cover each other so well.

Lucas does have one of the best sets of throws in the game imo. Arguably the best Fthrow, 3rd best Uthrow, top 5 Bthrow(?), and a Dthrow Uair confirm at limited percents.

When it comes down to it, Ness and Lucas aren't that far apart. Give it some more time and Lucas will slowly but surely make a case for himself being better than Ness.

 

[verbatim]

I would make the argument that Ness has significantly better throws all around bar ingrown, a decisively better grab, better aerials all around bar dair.

Lucas has a better projectile, obscurity (this is important but not a deciding factor), recovery, projectile, and tilts. They help him, but they don't stack up to Ness's advantages.

 

[EternalFlare]

Sumabato top 32 has begun:

https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

 

[Kofu]

I would make the argument that Ness has significantly better throws all around bar ingrown, a decisively better grab, better aerials all around bar dair.

Lucas has a better projectile, obscurity (this is important but not a deciding factor), recovery, projectile, and tilts. They help him, but they don't stack up to Ness's advantages.

Ness would take Lucas's FThrow and UThrow in a heartbeat. Not sure about DThrow.

 

[Piipp]

Ness would take Lucas's FThrow and UThrow in a heartbeat. Not sure about DThrow.

If Ness got to keep his Uair, he would easily take Lucas's Dthrow.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't think you understand the impact a few added percent on an attack can have on kill power, among other things.

An added 1 or 2% on Roy's hilted attacks would add up over the course of a game on top of increasing their kill power.

I was assuming not because it's not a very well-known mechanic, actually.

It still wouldn't do much because walking up and tilting somebody point-blank is still improbable. Yeah he'd have better kill options for reading a roll or something like that but most swordsmen are really good at that anyway.

 

[PK Gaming]

Dath crushed a fairly stacked monthly going all Robin (highlights include apparently 2 stocking Static Manny three times)

Madness

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

Yo Sonic is trash fam.

The hedgehog has fallen from grace.

Nah Sonic mains really just need to step it up. The same old standard Sonic play isnt cutting it anymore.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sonic players are only using like 5-6 moves out of his kit.
I wish more Sonic players had as much of an understanding of his moves as SGK/Komo.

 

[L9999]

Ness would take Lucas's FThrow and UThrow in a heartbeat. Not sure about DThrow.

If this were the case Ness would be even more hated than Sanic. A turtling rage tank that can kill from anywhere in the stage in any position with a grab at high %.

 

[MachoCheeze]

For anyone curious Shuton vs Tea was exactly what I was talking about referring to Pac being bad.

 

[Nu~]

For anyone curious Shuton vs Tea was exactly what I was talking about referring to Pac being bad.

What happened?
I missed it all

 

[MachoCheeze]

What happened?
I missed it all

Shuton got fruit and Tea literally couldn't do ANYTHING. As soon as Shuton was able to get a lead the match was over. Game 4 Tea went Bayo and got wrecked.