Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

Yeah, it's pretty much only Sheik and Diddy mains that overrate Ryu tbh. The Pika/Sonic/Rosa players say he sucks though. Kinda funny how that works out.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Prolly cuz they miss the amazing killing power he represents and they used to be able to boast tho in a smaller degree? I have no clue.

Nor is it even relevant because really overall, no one overrates Ryu. You are all just buying into Zero's propaganda.

 

[MachoCheeze]

When people say the opponent holding Pac-Man's fruit puts them at a disadvantage it burns me up. The opponent can z drop and catch the fruit with an aerial just like we can. They can drop it, attack w/ a normal, and pick it up just like we can. THEY CAN DO EVERYTHING WE CAN AND USUALLY DO IT BETTER. If someone holds our fruit and just wants to camp us out they can.

When you play against Pac-Man correctly he's utter garbage.

 

[Nu~]

When people say the opponent holding Pac-Man's fruit puts them at a disadvantage it burns me up. The opponent can z drop and catch the fruit with an aerial just like we can. They can drop it, attack w/ a normal, and pick it up just like we can. THEY CAN DO EVERYTHING WE CAN AND USUALLY DO IT BETTER. If someone holds our fruit and just wants to camp us out they can.

When you play against Pac-Man correctly he's utter garbage.

Yeah, pacman doesn't really have anything exclusive to him. He abuses universal mechanics (Z drop tricks and item combos) and stage control tools that can be used by both you and the opponent (trampoline and hydrant). He shares all of his toys because he's too damn friendly


Pacman players and former pacman players are super creative partially because we have to be in order to make the character even function lol.

 

[PJB]

I'm not sure I can buy the whole "sheik is too difficult/mentally draining to succeed as a solo character" thing. Yes, the fact that she often Is killed at far lower percentages than her opponent and her players must be on point at all times is undoubtedly very taxing. But does the same not hold true for, say, melee fox? It took a very long time, but fox did eventually become the almost undisputed best character in that game. I think that as smash 4 grows and its players improve, sheik will become the best character by virtue of having arguably the best neutral and disadvantage states

 

[blackghost]

It's not as practical as you might think, because it doesn't work on the majority of moves. I'll use Diddy's fair as an example of a lingering hitbox. That move is active from frames 6-16. Let's assume Corrin powershields the move on frame 6 so she has the maximum amount of time available to counter. She goes through 5 frames of powershield shieldstun, at which point there are 6 frames left to counter the move. However, Corrin's counter becomes active frame 7, so she can't counter Diddy's fair after shielding the attack, even under optimal conditions.

Most moves in this game have far fewer than 11 active frames. I can only see this being applicable to incredibly long lingering aerials like nairs or dairs, and in a few special cases like Tatsumaki or Link's Spin Attack. Even then, as Locke mentioned, it may not be the optimal punish option. This tech is going to be incredibly MU dependent at best.



Bayo's counter is the only one that affects KO Punch, so there might be something special with the way it's programmed. Not saying that it doesn't work because I haven't found that reputable source make that claim, but it is possible.

This speculation but bare with me. the game probably doesn't read witch time as a counter. a counter in game definition is a response to a hitbox and immediately responding with an invicible attack. fire emblem and Shulk and peach and palutena no matter how good or bad the counters are there are things (dragoon and ko punch) that cannot be countered. just goes straight through.
Bayo's counter works differently. she's doesn't nullify a hitbox permanently she temporarily ignores one active hitbox but it's not for the duration of witch time. it's much more like a parry. keep in mind the effect of witch time slow down has been in smash since brawl. it's much more likely that the programing falls under if she is hit between this frame and this frame trigger slowdown but don't stop the move or opponent in general

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I'm not sure I can buy the whole "sheik is too difficult/mentally draining to succeed as a solo character" thing. Yes, the fact that she often Is killed at far lower percentages than her opponent and her players must be on point at all times is undoubtedly very taxing. But does the same not hold true for, say, melee fox? It took a very long time, but fox did eventually become the almost undisputed best character in that game. I think that as smash 4 grows and its players improve, sheik will become the best character by virtue of having arguably the best neutral and disadvantage states

I don't like your comparison. Melee Fox and Sheik aren't as alike as you think them to be. Yes it's true that the players of both characters can't be having an off day, otherwise it's not uncommon to see them buster out. But that goes for several characters in both games.

The biggest difference between the two, at least the most compelling to render your argument as silly, is that Melee Fox could kill.

Ignoring the technicality and increased speed of Melee (and do not get me wrong, they are very important to this topic), his up-smash was and still is notoriously strong, shine could and can end stocks at ANY given percent while also acting as a combo extender, and u-throw > uair granted him kills out of grabs. Sheik lacks much of what made M!Fox such a renown fighter. None of her smash attacks are nearly as brilliant as Fox's usmash, she has no way to consistently end stocks at anything below 100%, and throws don't do much for her past mid-percents.

Turn it around and M!Fox's weaknesses aren't nearly as detrimental as Sheik's. He has three aerials that can kill, a smash attack that can be thrown out any time forcing respect, more range on his projectile, more use out of grabbing, an easier time edge-guarding (primarily due to ledge-hogging), and his attacks actually do damage...

There is no character in this game that compares to Melee Fox. Perhaps if we were talking about a specific aspect, such as the neutral, you could make a comparison, but even then I would question your logic. The difficulty of a character does holds no correlation with how viable they are.

 

[Aaron1997]

http://smashboards.com/threads/even...-komorikiri-earth-nietono-9b-and-more.439880/

In other news, Edge is Back but we don't know if he is still playing Sheik or not

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Turn it around and M!Fox's weaknesses aren't nearly as detrimental as Sheik's. He has three aerials that can kill, a smash attack that can be thrown out any time forcing respect, more range on his projectile, more use out of grabbing, an easier time edge-guarding (primarily due to ledge-hogging), and his attacks actually do damage...
.

On the other hand, it's much easier for Fox to die to gimps while for Sheik it's nearly impossible to gimp her. Taking stocks at very low percents against Fox seems almost as bad as Sheik not being able to kill cause at least she's not getting gimped at any point in the match.

 

[FeelMeUp]

On the other hand, it's much easier for Fox to die to gimps while for Sheik it's nearly impossible to gimp her. Taking stocks at very low percents against Fox seems almost as bad as Sheik not being able to kill cause at least she's not getting gimped at any point in the match.

in order to gimp fox you have to hard read what he's going to do or hope that he ****s up and loses his jump before you gimp him.
he's the character with the most recovery mixups in the entire series, and it's simply impossible to cover even half the options he can choose.

 

[PK Gaming]

PS punishes are generally stronger, yes. If you know what exactly hit you and how the opponent will move after the hit.

Counters being able to do this effectively give the Counter characters a "You lose" button no matter where the opponent is at. There's no guesswork, whether marginal or not otherwise.

Will Cloud cross you up with his landing Dair or will he land in front of you? Will the Dash Attack on shield put them behind you or in front? Out of powershield, the shielder still has to see the opponent's position and work off that for maximum punish. With counters, especially Corrin's and Bayonetta's, that effort is removed.

Calling this a "you lose button" is a massive, massive stretch. None of this has even been proven to consistently matter in an actual match, and nobody has gone out and labbed this against an actual opponent. You're making way too many assumptions, some of which are unfounded (I seriously doubt this will benefit all counters equally).

No disrespect, but you're creating needless worry here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This will DEF hurt Clouds full hop dair game in several match-ups.

This cannot even be argued.

 

[FeelMeUp]

he already lost to marth(imo) and struggled with lucina, but now corrin's a big issue for him as well.
dash to shield everywhere and playing entirely on reaction is a very risk free playstyle

 

[Ffamran]

On the other hand, it's much easier for Fox to die to gimps while for Sheik it's nearly impossible to gimp her. Taking stocks at very low percents against Fox seems almost as bad as Sheik not being able to kill cause at least she's not getting gimped at any point in the match.

Edit: Forgot about stuff about gravity values, but general thing is like fall speed, higher in Melee, lower in Brawl, and Smash 4's in the middle.

You do have to take the different environments of Melee and Smash 4 into consideration. In Melee, fall speeds were much higher and recovery moves were generally much worse not to mention ledge hogging. Fox's fall speed in Melee was 2.8 and when fast falling, was 3.4 -- only a 21.4% increase. The highest fall speed in Smash 4 is Fox's at 2.05, 0.65 under Melee Fox's and 1.05 under the highest, Melee Falco's 3.1. Smash 4 Fox also has the highest fast fall speed at 3.28, but remember, that's only when fast falling. The average falling speed was 1.7, 0.2 higher than Smash 4's and 0.42 higher than Brawl's. The lowest fall speed always held by Jigglypuff? 1.3. In Smash 4, 1.3 fall speed is held by fellow floaties, Samus and Wii Fit Trainer, while Jiggles has a 0.98 fall speed.

Most characters could not afford to do run-off aerials or whatever off-stage edgeguards that Smash 4 characters have the luxury of. Even in Brawl, where fall speeds were lower than Melee, because ledge hogging meant if you made a mistake, you're going to die. Back to Melee, unless you were Jigglypuff or Peach, edgeguards were mostly on-stage and through ledge hogging. Sometimes the occasional off-stage edgeguard like Falco and Fox using their Shines because Shine stalls momentum and lowers their falling speed or in the case of Fox, because his had a low hit angle (and larger hitbox) allowing for Shine spikes.

It was easy for not just Fox, but almost all characters in Melee to get gimped. If you were level with the ledge or even slightly above and you got hit... Well, kiss that stock goodbye unless you were Jigglypuff who could jump back up or Pikachu who has and still has one of the best recovery in the series through Quick Attack, but even then, Pikachu might fall too low to make it back up. Definite gimp if you were a fast faller, especially if you were Captain Falcon or Falco.

In Smash 4, fall speeds are lower than in Melee, but higher than in Brawl. What stands out though is that most recovery moves are better and ledge hogging being removed means there's no real fear for characters to just go for the ledge or try to edgeguard. This one's unconfirmed, but there was mentioned that (double) jump heights are much higher than in Brawl and Melee. BJN39 has posted saying: "In the transition from Brawl to SSB4, Zelda's double jump received a ~40% height increase", and the ssbwiki page for Mario has said he jumps higher, but only that, so it's vague. Jump heights are a bit difficult to compare since I think they're only based on velocity and stuff...

Anyway, for most of the cast, being off-stage to edgeguard isn't as scary and even encouraged like Ganondorf's edgeguard is actually one of his strengths despite him having a low jump and still a linear and exploitable recovery. At the same time, being off-stage to recovery isn't as scary, but for different reasons. For Melee, it was because nobody could really go out and edgeguard while in Smash 4, it's because ledge hogging doesn't exist making the ledge more of a sanctuary rather than a lifeboat surrounded by bloodthirsty zombie sharks.

There is one thing, however, that Melee had which Brawl decided to "remove" and was carried over in Smash 4: recovering to the stage. In Melee, as far as I know, most recovery moves had very little landing lag, so recovering to the stage was always a viable option, especially if you know your opponent is trying to edgeguard you and they miss, so they're stuck in recovery, end lag, and you can land, figure out a plan, or even counter. In Brawl, as far as I know, since I only checked Falco and Fox's (and the issue of Brawl having pretty barren frame data), Special landing lag was increased. In Melee, both Fire Bird and Fire Fox had 9 frames of landing lag. In Brawl, for Fire Bird and assuming the same for Fire Fox, there were 2 types of landing: a soft, regular landing lag of 15 frames and a hard, fast fall landing of 20 frames. Either way, it's pretty much twice what Melee had. In Smash 4, they eliminated the soft landing and Fire Bird has 19 frames while Fire Fox has 20 frames. For other characters, they're not as fortunate since the average landing lag from a Special, recovery move is 30 frames. Yeah. Against anyone with average or even below-average, so like Ike and Luigi (1.5) up to Sonic (3.5), they can definitely run up to you in half a second and beat your *** for trying to recover to the stage. Oh, and if you're playing as Lucario or Luigi, have fun with 60+ frames of landing lag from your Up Special. Better go for the ledge or die. The only character I recall having a Melee-esque Special landing lag is Ryu's Shoryuken and I think you have to input it. Here's the thing, why would you go the the stage with Shoryuken? It's not as flexible Fox, Greninja, or even Captain Falcon's Up Special to weave onto the stage. It's kind of only there for the fact Ryu can Shoryuken from a confirm or whatever, and land without much trouble. Okay, cool, he can do stuff like in Street Fighter, but anti-airing isn't an exclusively Street Fighter thing, so why can't Mario, Marth, Roy or even Cloud, Link, Little Mac, and Peach have that too? Doesn't even need to be Melee's 9 frames of landing lag, but 12 or even 15 would be fine instead of 30 freaking frames for lord knows why.

Spoiler: Links

Falling speed: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Falling_speed.
Fast fall speed: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Fast_fall.
SSB4 Smash 4 Mario page: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Mario_(SSB4)#Changes_from_Brawl.
Brawl Falco frame data thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/in-depth-falco-frame-data.308016/.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

You guys are blowing this **** way out of proportion and taking all of PJB 's post out of context.

The man wasn't trying to say that Sheik is as good as melee ****ing fox, I think we all owe it to him to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's smarter than that.

His point was that just because a character is technically demanding or "exhausting" to play at high level doesn't mean they can't be the best. Is smash 4 sheik as good as melee fox? Absolutely not. Do they both require strong fundamentals on top of something else that makes them hard to play at top level whether that be carpel tunnel inducing tech or difficulty closing stocks consistently? Yes.

Now before this further devolves into comparing two different characters from two different games and then eventually becomes game vs game, maybe we should keep the focus on sheik bc that's what we were originally talking about.

 

[Yonder]

I decided to make a tier list based on results (and results only, so it's not a 100% accurate tier list).

The data is taken from Das Koopa's excellent thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Based on top 16 weighted.

Unsurprisingly, is #1, with #2. is #3, which makes the argument that Cloud shouldn't be top 5 because of a lack of results rather lackluster. You might argue that he has flaws that keeps him out of top 5, but he doesn't lack results. #4 is , #5 , #6 . at #11 is interesting, as is for #13. #16 is also interesting. Seems Mewtwo has some high quality players but lacks the quantity to get placed higher.

has better results than . isn't even bottom 20, going by results alone.

DDD's results are interesting, pretty much coming from Big D in BC. Asides from Captain L, BC is kinda totally free so it helps DDD's results in a way.

Personally, I think a heavyweight with bad frame data that struggles to kill in this game is way too off-putting. Also, along with a projectile that is easily countered if you take the time to learn the angles of the Gordos and what angle to hit them back. Bowser and DK have kill confirms which basically centralize their gameplay (more so DK, Bowser has a severely underrated side b btw).DDD does well in lower level play though, I think.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I know we're all tired of hearing this but it's simply because even though they're both extremely difficult to use, the gap between Fox and everyone else is FAR larger than the gap between Sheik and everyone else.

 

[PK Gaming]

This will DEF hurt Clouds full hop dair game in several match-ups.

This cannot even be argued.

GOOD!

 

[Deleted member 269706]

No one is making such accusations and the only one blowing it out of proportion is the one cursing to get his point across.

I don't recall anyone saying that Sheik holds the same influence as Melee Fox, and I don't recall anyone blaming anyone of arguing this. What we do know is the things that made Fox so good are attributes that Sheik obviously lacks, even if they are both the most demanding characters in their respective games. If this was not clear, I apologize for not being better about how I iterated my post.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Tweek's internal conflict summed up in one set

 

[Mario766]

This will DEF hurt Clouds full hop dair game in several match-ups.

This cannot even be argued.

Non-limit FH D-Air was already pretty bad to begin with.

Now in several MUs it could be asking for free hits.

 

[Djent]

This isn't a "competitive impression," but it is relevant because we depend on high-level footage to talk meaningfully about the game. Some doofus who was personally recmommended to GimR changed every. single. title. of all VGBC's videos to the same thing. It's a pretty awful scenario:

 

[EternalFlare]

I actually do play Diddy LMFAO.
He's my secondary. Don't assume things.

What are you trying to show me? I don't see anything at 5:10.

If you watched the video for a few more seconds, you'd see Ally DIng Diddy's downtilt away making Fsmash followups impossible.

A secondary is not the same as a main.

If Diddy could really kill reliably/consistently at 90, everyone would be playing him, there would be little reason to use anyone else.

With that said I do believe Diddy is the best character in Smash 4 but he's not significantly better than every other top tier.

 

[FeelMeUp]

If you watched the video for a few more seconds, you'd see Ally DIng Diddy's downtilt away making Fsmash followups impossible.

A secondary is not the same as a main.

If Diddy could really kill reliably/consistently at 90, everyone would be playing him, there would be little reason to use anyone else.

With that said I do believe Diddy is the best character in Smash 4 but he's not significantly better than every other top tier.

it's an entire day later.
i quite frankly do not care anymore.
the discussion is over.

 

[EternalFlare]

it's an entire day later.
i quite frankly do not care anymore.
the discussion is over.

Please don't spread false information next time then. If you want to argue Diddy Kong beats Mario, making absurd claims like him dying all the time at 90 in the matchup is not the way to do it.

You guys are blowing this **** way out of proportion and taking all of PJB 's post out of context.

The man wasn't trying to say that Sheik is as good as melee ****ing fox, I think we all owe it to him to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's smarter than that.

His point was that just because a character is technically demanding or "exhausting" to play at high level doesn't mean they can't be the best. Is smash 4 sheik as good as melee fox? Absolutely not. Do they both require strong fundamentals on top of something else that makes them hard to play at top level whether that be carpel tunnel inducing tech or difficulty closing stocks consistently? Yes.

Now before this further devolves into comparing two different characters from two different games and then eventually becomes game vs game, maybe we should keep the focus on sheik bc that's what we were originally talking about.

I find it interesting top players have a rather low opinion of Sheik these days. Zero didn't put her in his top 5. Ally and Anti have tweeted about her being too weak to play now.

More importantly, I don't think they mean she's hard to play which is where the Melee Fox comparison would kick in. I think they literally mean that there are simply multiple characters arguably better than her.

I think the biggest issue with Sheik is definitely the rage mechanic as it hurts her more than helps her. If it didn't exist she could continue to out neutral everyone and it wouldn't matter much if she killed past 150 she wouldn't be risking dying super early because of it.

But one cannot ignore how good her matchup spread seems to be and her tools that let her deal with any kind of playstyle. That alone imo will always her in the top 8 at least.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Erm, so, I've been thinking about picking up Roy, recently, since I like him as a character and as Smash fighter...
Where did they go so wrong with him?...
How do they screw up the same character twice? I mean, they screwed up Zelda 3 times but that's one character, now we have two getting this treatment?

Not 5 minutes ago, I was struck with his Sourspot Down Smash while I was at 160% using Lucina. I was close to the edge of the stage, and Roy had 110% on him.
The knockback was barely enough to make me go offscreen. I know that is just a drop in the ocean of problems Roy has, but... why? Was this intentional, is this supposed to be funny?

I want you guys to tell me realistically what's Roy's niche in this game. What does he do that no one else can do better than him? Also, I want you guys to tell me how 9 out of 10 people used to think he was High Tier a year ago. I was one of those people...

Sorry for venting like this... I didn't want to see a character like him so bad.

Roy is a really interesting swordsman experiment, and to be honest, I think they barely thought about his Melee design at all; they just made him Bizarro-Marth (Remember, Melee was developed in 13 months!). Heck, they clearly just stuck Marth's dash attack on Melee Roy without thinking about how long the hitbox needed to be out, and thus we have the infamous Melee Roy dash attack. For his second appearance, they put some more thought into his mechanics, but ran into some difficult questions.

Roy suffers from being a weird and counter-intuitive twist on the swordsman archetype, and I think it's clear that the devs were too cautious with him. A sword character generally wants to space people out, but the wrinkle with Roy is that he needs to be up close and personal to secure kills. To be as good as Marth, then, Roy needs much better frame data. But if you make his frame data too good, he becomes oppressive because a fast sword disjoint walls people out completely, even if he doesn't kill too easily at long range. We don't want to have a character that's basically Mario with a disjoint; that would be a nightmare. Picture a meth-amped Cloud. No bueno.

Roy is the type of character that really needs constant tweaking in a way that the patch schedule doesn't allow for, I feel. You would need a lot of testing to determine how to properly buff him without making him ridiculous. My first thought is to make his tippers much weaker, make his sweet spots stronger, and drastically improve his frame data. I envision him as a character that nips at you with weak tippers and then tries to get one good smack in with the hilt for a KO (He kind of does this now, but a ton of his moves are unsafe. N-air and D-tilt are great, though.). He would need more of his animations altered from Marth's, I think. Less range overall, even with tippers, but much faster. Perhaps a mix of ranged damage-builders mixed with kill moves that are very short range, such that they only have hilt hitboxes. (Why does F-Smash even have a sour spot? It's like getting Mega-Bloks for your birthday instead of LEGOs. You know I don't want them. I'd rather have nothing.)

Another big problem is disadvantage state, which, if fixed, would make him decent as-is, even if he'd still be a bit muddled in terms of design. His counter should not reduce his fall speed as much as it does. It contrasts too much with his fast-faller status, and it often makes it impossible to counter opponents' moves in the air when Roy is trying to get back to the stage. If you start counter early enough to intercept them, the change in your fall speed means you whiff; if you try to start late enough to ensure you overlap with them, the counter doesn't come out in time. Blazer needs more range, clearly,

On the subject of Blazer, I really think it's a great move from the ground, since it has super armor and more damage and all that, but Grounded Blazer should also have less landing lag than Aerial Blazer. It's always going to be a high-risk move, but the risk is too high at the moment. Blazer in general should have less landing lag, since Roy already has so many issues in disadvantage.

Basically, the devs know how to make a Marth like character work, but Roy is such a strange take on that formula that they're not exactly sure what his numbers should look like, and so he's a bit underwhelming. Marth keeps people out and kills them at max range. Roy sort of wants to keep people in a strange half-in, half-out spot, where he can really make them afraid of his raw power. I think that Roy is always going to be a character that requires more risk than Marth, and so it's a bit difficult to know exactly how much greater his reward should be. But in my opinion, the rewards should be large. Marth's tipper hits should be noticeably weaker than Roy's hilt strikes, I think.

As-is, I find Roy very satisfying, almost like a more fun Ganon. There's this feeling you get when you just know someone is going to roll, and you're near the edge, and you wind up that F-Smash and kill them at a nice, reasonable 50%. Glorious. That feeling is what Roy's all about. You should always be scared that he'll Armor-Blazer your approach or otherwise smack the taste out of your mouth when you're in his range. Guess wrong and die. The devs just need to find the sweet spot (heh) that rightly matches risk and reward. I really hope more patches are on the way.

Random note: Double-Edge Dance is actually really good. Just thought I'd say that.

 

[EternalFlare]

This might be a bit off topic but I'd like to point out Melee Fox isn't as dominant as people are suggesting in this topic either. He's not way better than every other Melee top tier by any means.

Some top players don't even consider him to be the best character. And historically all the best Fox players have lost to multiple top Marths, Sheiks, Falcos as well as Puff and Peach countless times. With more isolated/rare examples you could also add Falcon and Samus to that list. So that's several characters that have shown they can compete with Fox at the highest level of play.

In other words the 20xx thing is more a meme/joke than anything. Fox isn't actually that good. If he was you'd be seeing top 8s filled with nothing but him which is very far from the case. He's overused (especially at lower levels) for sure, but doesn't have the results to justify it.

 

[Shaya]

I haven't been around much lately, barely back in Australia after my time at Evo.
I originally (well technically still do, but I won't) had this Roy post to reply to from like 2 weeks ago with extreme amounts of rage.

The conversation still seems to be going on, many many many days later.

His moveset is able to achieve anything and everything Marth can, just his numbers are worse.
As a swordsman, one has to deal with attrition match up styles and that's completely fine for him as his neutral, whilst difficult, has extremely high max spikes (did I read someone say he doesn't have combos or poor damage output? SIGHSIGHSIGH), but in terms of attrition his worst case (death) scenario of being in disadvantage in the air or off stage is way too likely when considering his capabilities throughout a stock.
His recovery is truly what lets him down on a frequent basis, his knockback numbers are not tied together in a synergistic way - if he has no rage he legitimately cannot kill you, if you're well above 100% he has little he can do to combo or force KOs without rage - His tipper back air feels to KO better than nearly all his other sweet spot aerials, that's just painful.

However, evenish situations, with some rage so the likes of blazer (up-b), Up Smash and Back Air are strong while the likes of his jab, tilts, tipper aerials and grabs are still setting up 50/50s or providing follow ups ... that's his best scenario and it's right there and then he feels like a competent and rewarding character.
But the moment that's over: his fragility being excessive (recovery), he is a lame duck. He can play a spacing game and out-attrition many, rush down in openings from opposing commitments like a God, but he isn't finding KOs or much reward at a stock/% deficit while spacing tipper down tilt and nair (although these two moves are above and beyond excellent and most of the cast would kill to have them). There is a mental bypass possible here, but that leads him away from a typical swordsman style and Ike does it a lot better with his more difficult to challenge recovery and better weight/range/raw strength.

It's not about design, it's about his numbers. His design is honestly amazing (the anti-marth) and he is incredibly fun to play as. If he was tuned as highly as say Fox (a character that is most similar to Roy beyond other swordies due to their fragility and burst) he would function much the same as he does now, just would have a lot more "viable" median state. What turned Marth from mediocre to a high tier was his average hits becoming as rewarding (good damage and KO power) as they are now - Roy's sweet spot aerials KOing would instantly put him in contention for a similar tier spot as Marth.
It would not take remotely as much development time or required changes as Ike, Samus or Mewtwo had to reach a semblance of competency or better (or heck, even Marth himself, who's had every move he has altered except Up/Side Smash, Counter and Dash Attack).
He still has an optimal game plan / state which he can achieve victory through, and that is placing him a lot higher in my mind than other characters.


OH YEAH
EVO IMPRESSIONS

Midnight Marth is OP.
Midday Megaman is OP.
ZeRo would've beaten Ally if not for that meddling robot.
Everyone should be playing more Mario and an extra megaman or two at high level (who uses GC controllers) would be very convenient.

Cloud will come crawling back.
I don't understand ZSS in this meta anymore (she's awful but so god damn awesome at the same time!?!?!). Marss is great.

If Mewtwo pokes was all that was necessary to be a top 5 character, then my boy Roy would be top 50. Or more seriously, BAYONETTA is a poking machine.
Although to be fair, theory sets him up as a real possibility for it, due to his kit's capabilities.

Fox blows my mind. Thanks Dr. PP / Melee core complaining about how weak he was at the E3 invitational, this game could've been PERFECT Up Smash not KOing at 140% *dreams*.

It seems hard not to think Sheik is overall still best in the game, but everyone else after is generally too hard to feel confident about orders. They all can look terrible when combined with their best players having a poor result and a lovely person taking the opportunity to scream loudly "OVERRATED GUYS, TOLD YOU SO".

Does Captain Falcon beat Megaman?

I think a lot more people would be happy with a Little Mac ban than any other character... except Fox. Ban Fox.


Met / brushed past a few peeps in my recent travels who come to here, includng aem, bananabake and a2zomg.
Probably many more but I can be pretty god awful at names and was generally either running around like a madman or sick/dying, please remind me!!

 

[chaos11011]

@Wintermelon43

:Duck hunt is underestimated in terms of theory. He has 2 good projectiles, pretty good aierals and jab and dash attack, and a pretty good matchup spread (Although there aren't as many evens aganist top tiers as Pac-Man does.) However, mostly, people overestimate his flaws. All three of his biggest flaws aren't as bad as people say.

Actually, Duck Hunt has god like theory (foxtrot Can to have combobreaker on you at all times, using the Can to force air dodges guarantee UAir frame trap kills, every projectile can follow up into A LOT of things) but in reality, he falls flat because anyone who knows the match up will not let anything happen. You only lose to Duck Hunt if you've never fought a good DH player before. He relies on character unfamiliarity.

What are these two projectiles? Clay Pigeon is a liability with huge risk due to huge end lag and can break, Can is good but easily manipulated, and gunmen, while the best of the bunch, is stuffed by aggro play.

His match up spread isnt good at all. He loses to just about all the top tiers. He loses to anything fast and can edgeguard. He loses to anything with a sword (an actual sword, not DDD, it's the way the sword is swung and how it breaks/bounces projectiles back and how it can slash through FAir and BAir)

What are the 3 flaws? I'm certain they ARE as bad as it seems.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Every character can have godlike theory if you're deluded enough.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Every character can have godlike theory if you're deluded enough.

I mean, really, just a question,
didn't some fans that did something with Brawl make Roy work pretty well?
I do always wonder if maybe that kind of philosophy wouldn't work, here.

 

[chaos11011]

Every character can have godlike theory if you're deluded enough.

That's true. Every character is better in theory. Maybe god like wasn't the word I should have used, but Duck Hunt does have some good theory, but I still think even with it, he is still a pretty mediocre character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What does "good theory" even mean.

I mean Shulk can switch between being the fastest character, the heaviest character, the character with the best damage output, killpower and recovery at will all while massively reducing lag on every single one of his moves in the process.

Best character in the game, am I right?

 

[PK Gaming]

This isn't a "competitive impression," but it is relevant because we depend on high-level footage to talk meaningfully about the game. Some doofus who was personally recmommended to GimR changed every. single. title. of all VGBC's videos to the same thing. It's a pretty awful scenario:

This is super disheartening

I hope youtube somehow comes through because goddamnit

 

[FamilyTeam]

This is super disheartening

I hope youtube somehow comes through because goddamnit

Oh, gee, this is horrible.
Do we even know who did this?
This is almost like when you screw up something when managing a database. Like an update without where.
Was this sabotage or some sort of mistake?

 

[chaos11011]

What does "good theory" even mean.

I mean Shulk can switch between being the fastest character, the heaviest character, the character with the best damage output, killpower and recovery at will all while massively reducing lag on every single one of his moves in the process.

Best character in the game, am I right?

What the character can do, really. What techs/tools they have and their pros and cons.

However, theory isn't everything, hence why I'm saying Duck Hunt is bad. idk why we're nitpicking about this term when my post as a whole is similar to what you're trying to say: theory doesnt make a character. We are on the same side here, I'm not opposing your thoughts at all.

I'd like to drop this segment of the conversation bc it's not the focus of what I was getting across. All I'm saying is that on paper, DH has some nifty tools, and it's probably why people view him as underrated, but in practice, a lot of what Duck Hunt has to offer falls flat.

 

[Yikarur]

if a character is "good in theory" but "bad in practice" then your theory is lacking information -> your theory is wrong -> the character is not good in theory.

 

[chaos11011]

if a character is "good in theory" but "bad in practice" then your theory is lacking information -> your theory is wrong -> the character is not good in theory.

Not at all.

Theory: Duck Hunt can utilize Clay Pigeons to combo into a myriad of aerials.

Practice: Side B is slow and easily punished thus making the option unsafe


I do get where you're coming from though and I guess you could debate that it would be bad theory if it doesnt apply in practice as often, but I view the two as two distinct things. Theory is what you CAN do, practice is what is likely to happen in an actual match.

 

[Yikarur]

How about

Theory: "Duck Hunt can utilize Clay Pigeons to combo into his aerials, but the move is slow and easily punished and thus it's not practical"

 

[chaos11011]

I see what you mean now.