Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

FeelMeUp where do you even rank Mario?

7-9
He dumps on projectile users/characters that can't keep him out really badly

 

[LancerStaff]

I struggle to see how Pit's mid tier when he wins several relevant MUs, goes even with a bunch of others and doesn't get bodied by anybody so bad it's unwinnable.

If anything he's underrated because everybody around here thinks he's some mediocre blob.

 

[blackghost]

I think Ness really sucks, actually.
The additions of Cloud and Corrin really didn't help him at all.

ness can't remain as a gare keeper to high tiers. all the dlc eat him alive (except roy).

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah, these are without DI. This weakens a bunch of the throws, but the differences should be similar.

This is all done with Falco's lasers hitting. I think it's what makes his throws different from others, allowing to do what other characters can't, but of course they come with their own issues.

I had to think about this for a moment, but if the lasers are hitting, then shouldn't it KO earlier the higher up Falco is on the platforms of Dreamland? I can't of why an additional attack that hits closer to the blast zone would KO later than the previous that started lower outside of, which isn't the case for Falco's lasers, the hit angles were horizontal or were in the 270 range pushing people down.

The only reason I can think of why his U-throw would KO later the higher he is up is the laser completely missing because Mario or whoever flew past the blast zone, but if you're sure and I'd assume you be since training mode has a hit counter, then that's just weird.

For reference, the following characters have counterattacks:

Meanwhile, Peach is sitting alone somewhere crying to herself. That or Peach's Toad (Abuse) doesn't work for whatever reason.

 

[Illuminose]

There's really nothing, nothing at all that bugs me more in tier lists than people using raw results to determine their thoughts in a tier list.

I'm looking at your tier list to see what you think of the current metagame. "I want to place this character higher or lower but I can't because of results." Have an actual opinion. Results are conditional and people often fail to realize that, which is why discussing viability primarily through results is fundamentally flawed. A character will be perceived higher if it is constantly in the limelight, seeing high placings and such, but that doesn't tell you anything close to the whole story. What did their bracket look like? How consistent is this player? What did the sets look like...was everyone playing well (EVO is a really good counterexample of of this situation)...who did this person who placed poorly lose to...is it a personal matchup problem... Looking at raw results doesn't explain the whys and hows, but people do it regardless and it's a completely worthless endeavor. Even though I disagree with some of his conclusions, FeelMeUp is doing a better job of this than anyone else in this thread. Instead of crumbling in the face of raw results, he seeks to explain more of why and how they occur to gain meaningful conclusions instead of results just being numbers with limited value to measure characters.

With that in mind, Cloud is being severely underrated in this thread because of his perceived decline. I've seen people say Cloud isn't top 5 because of his results. With M2K not even entering CEO or EVO in mind, are you kidding me? Not only is it hard for me to believe that this is ignored, but you're telling me that a character who loses only one matchup and wins against half of the top tiers is not even top 5. Cloud beats as many top 10 characters as Mario does in the entire top 20. The character is good in every state except offstage, with a top 5 neutral and one of the scariest advantage states in the game. Look, I think Sheik is the best in the game. I'm not saying Cloud is the best character. But considering how exceptional his theory remains, and with the uncertainty surrounding his 'declining results' without the best Cloud even entering, I don't see how you can reasonably argue that Cloud isn't even top 5.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Overrated: (She's not good. She's going to fall)(slightly)
Underated: (slightly)(slightly)
Goes back on forth on any given day:
On the edge of being overrated/will most likely be overrated in the future:

Isn't Peach already at that point though? and has been since like.......... Febuary? Shulk probably will get to that point as well though, I agree on that.

LOL

LOL you actually wasted your time to just post "LOL"

I figure I minds as well post SOME sort of reason for my post though

imo:
and to a lesser extent, (Not joking) for overrated.

(No joke) for underrated.

This obvisualy isn't all, but the most under/overrated ones.

LET THE HATE COME IN!!!

:My opinion of him has rose a little recently, but I still don't think he is high tier or anything. I think he has too many troublesome top tiers matchups and not enough positive/even matchups to make up for it, and that his strengths really aren't as good as people say. I also think he has a pretty bad projectile issue too. I don't see him rising anymore in the future however, only dropping. Atm, I would put him right below or right with, the same viability as , not up with and so on.

:For Link, I think he's a clear bottom 15 characte with or without miis and a definite low tier. Link may have some strengths, such as a good z-air, strong aierals, a good projectile, and great ko power. However, I feel that he suffers more from his bad flaws than he gains from his strengths. He has very poor mobility, bad frame data, pretty bad recovery, a few useless moves, and a horrific matchup spread to name many of these flaws. I don't see how he can't be any better than, say, who I think has similar problems in that he has good strengths, but they don't let him gain as much as he suffers from flaws (Although I think Bowser Jr is a little better in the end)

: Dr. Mario's reason is simple. I feel like many players, espicially his mains, underestimate th severity of his two severe flaws; horrible mobility and terrible recovery. I feel like it is impossible for him to leave low tier with those flaws. Also, people say he's a good counterpick characte, but he really only counterpicks Pikachu.

:I feel like many people just overestimate Corrin's strengths, kinda similar to Marth. However, I think he is much worse than Marth at most other stuff anyway, and has many flaws. I admitdly don't know much about Corrin though, so I could easily be wrong and I don't know how to write this in words due to that. I will mention though that 50% of people say Corrin is a good counterpick to Mario and the other 50% say Corrin is deatroyed by Mario. Could a Corrin main please tell me what the matchup actually is?

:By this point Roy isn't really overrated by many people, but I feel like some people greatly overestimate him and just ignore his flaws for the most part, and I think people underestimate his recovery weakness (It's only a little bit better than 's and worse than 's).

:Similar to Dr. Mario's descriptation. People underestimate hs severe weakness in no air game (And being easily juggled and knocked offstage from it) and horrific recovery. Little Mac at least has some nice results and great ground game though.

:How people fail to see how rediculously flawed this character is is beyond me. Zelda only really has killing power, fairly good recovery, one combo, and a tiny bit of misalaneus stuff that barely matter. Plus results. Yes, this is bad for this game, and there is no reason for her to be above anyone 1111 and maybe .

: Pac-Man is underestimated by the community it isn't even funny. He has a pretty good matchup spread involving only one very bad matchup () and muitiple even matchups aganist top tiers, some possibly even positive. He also has good projectiles (And before you say "Fruit are some of the worst moves in the game you can catch them" Pac-Man not only has counterplay himself to do that and many other option, but the opponent can't use anything other than specials while that happens, so they are harmed more.), pretty good aierals, a few combos (Yes, they exist), good dash attack, good recovery, etc. There is no reason for him to not be top 30.

: People fail to realize that Mega Man's matchup spread is not only amazing (Loses to like four character and goes even with only a few, and beats muitiple top and high tiers), but that Kamemushi is pretty much winning every single tournament he enters in Japan (Well, that he actually uses Mega Man in) and got 2nd at EVO 2016. This means a severe amount guys, he simply can't be below top 12 with that.

:Duck hunt is underestimated in terms of theory. He has 2 good projectiles, pretty good aierals and jab and dash attack, and a pretty good matchup spread (Although there aren't as many evens aganist top tiers as Pac-Man does.) However, mostly, people overestimate his flaws. All three of his biggest flaws aren't as bad as people say.

:Similar to Duck Hunt, people ignore some of her strengths, underrate her matchup spread, and overrate her flaws. Her flaws are NOT as crippling as people suggest, and she has some good strengths, such as great aierals, good air mobility, good up tilt, great dash attack, good KO power, and great edgeguarding

:Kirby I feel like some people put much lower than he really is for like no reason. He has very bad flaws of course, but some very good strengths too. I can't see him low tier when he has all of that and great counterpick potential, just like Game and Watch. I think he is lower mid. I think that the main thing people underestimate about him is his matchup spread.

:Game and Watch's reason is VERY similar to Kirby. Their viability is similar because Game and Watch and Kirby share some good flaws and strengths. They each have a terrible neutral, are both light, have some terrible machups, etc and have great combos, good edgeguarding, etc. However, they each have their own flaw or strength that the other does not have (Kirby has terrible mobility while game & Watch doesn't, Game & Watch has trouble killing while Kirby doesn't, etc. However, mostly, both are counterpick characters in low mid. While Kirby has much more counterpick matchups and ones higher into the tier list, Game & Watch has much better results.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I had to think about this for a moment, but if the lasers are hitting, then shouldn't it KO earlier the higher up Falco is on the platforms of Dreamland? I can't of why an additional attack that hits closer to the blast zone would KO later than the previous that started lower outside of, which isn't the case for Falco's lasers, the hit angles were horizontal or were in the 270 range pushing people down.

The only reason I can think of why his U-throw would KO later the higher he is up is the laser completely missing because Mario or whoever flew past the blast zone, but if you're sure and I'd assume you be since training mode has a hit counter, then that's just weird.


Meanwhile, Peach is sitting alone somewhere crying to herself. That or Peach's Toad (Abuse) doesn't work for whatever reason.

I legit forgot about her. I was thinking mostly of down specials because that's where they're all mapped except hers.

 

[blackghost]

Watching more and more tournament sets, I'm beginning to think that Anti might be correct about Sheik's tournament viability. He argues that a Sheik will probably never take another supermajor, and it's not because she's bad, he thinks she's quite good. The issue is that Sheik, at top level play, requires an insane level of effort to secure kills, and is pretty dang killable herself, which require superoptimal play at all times, and can produce a lot of fatigue in the players, even the best players. And I find that hard to argue against - it has to be stressful to regularly take opponents to 140%+, and be aware that you can get taken out at 80%.

I definitely don't disagree that Sheik may be the best character in the game - in "optimal" situations, I think she very well may be. However, I don't know if we'll ever see this borne out in tournament results.

considering void is turning into Mr. top 4, i'm inclined to agree.

 

[Mario766]

It seems you can shield an attack then counterattack that same hitbox, given the hitbox is out long enough. Most effective with single-hit, long-duration hitboxes like Cloud's dair.

Spoiler: Embedded Video

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Spoiler: And Another

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(EDIT: I didn't. Link 1. Link 2.)

This sounds like the sort of thing that should have been common knowledge, yet I find myself surprised that it works at all. Am I just super late to the party here?

For reference, the following characters have counterattacks:


I'm not entirely sure this would be worth it for most of them. Bayonetta obviously because Witch Time is fundamentally different from other counters in terms of how it retaliates, and Corrin and Shulk have lots of power behind their counters so I'd hate to get smacked in the face with them. But the rest?

It's worth it for:

Bayonetta - Obviously
Corrin - High kill power
Ike - High kill power, this counter here kills people cross stage at 40, rage makes it even scarier. If this works on Ike's frame 9 counter, hitting a PS will cause deaths.
Shulk - Forward vision will give it the speed needed to hit properly and kill insanely early. The only concern is, obviously, the attack itself.

The ones where it means little
Greninja - Slowest counter, it may not even hit in some situations, dunno how powerful it actually is either but likely won't be huge.
Marth/lucina - Counters don't do a lot for them, it'll be damage...and not much else.
Mac - Slip Counter is pathetic, and the slow attack will cause issues.
Palutena - Worst counter in the game, nothing to say here.
Mii Sword - People play this? It's pretty weak for a counter even with it's 1.25 amplification.

 

[blackghost]

It's worth it for:

Bayonetta - Obviously
Corrin - High kill power
Ike - High kill power, this counter here kills people cross stage at 40, rage makes it even scarier. If this works on Ike's frame 9 counter, hitting a PS will cause deaths.
Shulk - Forward vision will give it the speed needed to hit properly and kill insanely early. The only concern is, obviously, the attack itself.

The ones where it means little
Greninja - Slowest counter, it may not even hit in some situations, dunno how powerful it actually is either but likely won't be huge.
Marth/lucina - Counters don't do a lot for them, it'll be damage...and not much else.
Mac - Slip Counter is pathetic, and the slow attack will cause issues.
Palutena - Worst counter in the game, nothing to say here.
Mii Sword - People play this? It's pretty weak for a counter even with it's 1.25 amplification.

with bayos it could be a little tricky to execute if the hitbox is really that active. its not free like corrins or shulk.

 

[Mario766]

Witch Time still has intangibility, so it's still pretty safe, though yes you'd have to watch out for the lingering hitbox while you play your punish option.

 

[FeelMeUp]

My main reason for not putting Cloud in top 5 is mostly personal opinion. I honestly feel like he doesn't have anywhere to go. Like back when Ness was predicted #8-12 in the game I thought he would tank because the character is so linear that he can't evolve much.
Cloud might be able to fix his recovery and improve his movement/juggling, but the horrid ground game and difficulty killing safely without burning limit is really troubling. A big thing people aren't realizing is the fact that he's as easy to ledgetrap as a heavyweight. If he commits to a jump aerial off of ledge most characters can drop shield and dsmash/fsmash to send him at an angle where he'll never recover. Dair is getting easier and easier to play around. Uair isn't amazing at killing anymore. His combo game is underwhelming.
Throwing decent frame data amazing aerials at people won't work forever.

However, I'd definitely put him at 6-7 simply because his release meant some characters should never be successful again(Bowser, Peach, Wario, etc)

 

[Nu~]

I struggle to see how Pit's mid tier when he wins several relevant MUs, goes even with a bunch of others and doesn't get bodied by anybody so bad it's unwinnable.

If anything he's underrated because everybody around here thinks he's some mediocre blob.

Very few characters in this game have unwinnables and most of them lie in low/bottom tier. Having no unwinnables will not make you a high tier.

Who does Pit beat? My guess is that you want to say cloud because pit abuses his disadvantage state really well, but he can't really force cloud to approach. Having nothing safe on sheild hurts too and guardian orbitals can only save you from uair juggles for so long before you're forced to retreat to the ledge...I like to call it even.


But honestly, who does he beat? Fox, diddy, sheik, ZSS, Bayonetta, Mewtwo, and Mario all have better buttons and more dynamic nuetral games (well, besides ZSS) that all lead to much better reward than pit gets...


Edit: electroshock is a pain for rosa, but you can't rely on that when Rosa walls dark pit out so well and can simply jump over the slow ass electroshock.

 

[PK Gaming]

:I feel like many people just overestimate Corrin's strengths, kinda similar to Marth. However, I think he is much worse than Marth at most other stuff anyway, and has many flaws. I admitdly don't know much about Corrin though, so I could easily be wrong and I don't know how to write this in words due to that. I will mention though that 50% of people say Corrin is a good counterpick to Mario and the other 50% say Corrin is deatroyed by Mario. Could a Corrin main please tell me what the matchup actually is?
.

I got you fam

I don't think either character really destroys each other, but Corrin wins the matchup by a bit, imo. Mario is one of the few top tiers that can't punish Dragon Lunge, so he pretty much has to respect it the entire match (n top of being outranged). Can't really exploit Corrin's recovery like most sword characters either. In terms of high level play, Ally is straight up looking for a secondary to deal with the Corrin matchup.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Witch Time still has intangibility, so it's still pretty safe, though yes you'd have to watch out for the lingering hitbox while you play your punish option.

utilt and dtilt are pretty good for putting someone in hitstun real quick for a Witch Time combo.

 

[Ninety]

Where are all these mystical Pikachu overraters? Whenever anyone brings him up it's to talk about how much he sucks and how he's a high midtier at best and how still, somehow, everyone overrates him. That pendulum's swung the other way for a while now.

 

[Ulevo]

Kamemushi's recent match up chart has Megaman as 4.5:6.5 versus Meta Knight. Can any Megaman mains present give justification for why Meta Knight might have a slight advantage?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Kamemushi's recent match up chart has Megaman as 4.5:6.5 versus Meta Knight. Can any Megaman mains present give justification for why Meta Knight might have a slight advantage?

Also curious on this.
I feel like MK can't actually do anything in this matchup.

 

[LancerStaff]

Very few characters in this game have unwinnables and most of them lie in low/bottom tier. Having no unwinnables will not make you a high tier.

Who does Pit beat? My guess is that you want to say cloud because pit abuses his disadvantage state really well, but he can't really force cloud to approach. Having nothing safe on sheild hurts too and guardian orbitals can only save you from uair juggles for so long before you're forced to retreat to the ledge...I like to call it even.


But honestly, who does he beat? Fox, diddy, sheik, ZSS, Bayonetta, Mewtwo, and Mario all have better buttons and more dynamic nuetral games (well, besides ZSS) that all lead to much better reward than pit gets...


Edit: electroshock is a pain for rosa, but you can't rely on that when Rosa walls dark pit out so well and can simply jump over the slow *** electroshock.

Cloud's not that good at keeping Pit out. Cloud's lacking ground buttons make him DA/DG bait. Like you said, Pit's really good at exploiting his disadvantage too. Pit's disadvantage against Cloud isn't anywhere near as bad as Cloud's against Pit. Biggest thing Cloud has over Pit is limit but Pit basically exists to bait out anything and everything so it's going to take a pretty hard read to get him.

Mewtwo is similar. Pit has him beat in midrange, has faster buttons overall, deals with Shadow Ball quite well, Fair gets beat by everything, and Pit's good at exploiting Mewtwo's disadvantage. Mewtwo doesn't have anything super scary... Relatively speaking.

Rosalina doesn't wall out Pit. One DA and Luma's dead. One anything really... Disjoints beat out Luma and now Rosa's playing most of the match solo. Solo Rosa is pretty lacking, especially in this MU. Electroshock over arrows is only considered because solo Rosa tends to just build up his rage and usually gives up space easily, ergo, an Electroshock can end up killing at 60%.

These MU's I'm confident Pit wins. A lot of the others could go either way.

 

[Ulevo]

Also curious on this.
I feel like MK can't actually do anything in this matchup.

I made a match up chart recently and placed Megaman as one of four characters that are +1 versus Meta Knight, but this is entirely on theory since I have only fought a competent Megaman twice.

 

[Joey T.]

https://twitter.com/PG_Dom/status/759059750566793216

I found this interesting enough to put it in here, it's a compilation of the relationship between US Top 8 results and some of the characters in the game.
Have to keep in mind that patches happened, so some placings may be irrelevant now. Also, it has little nitpicks, like the absence of Doc (MLG) or Cloud in the top row because the autor of the chart claims that "Anti won CEO mostly with Mario".

 

[Mario766]

https://twitter.com/PG_Dom/status/759059750566793216

I found this interesting enough to put it in here, it's a compilation of the relationship between US Top 8 results and some of the characters in the game.
Have to keep in mind that patches happened, so some placings may be irrelevant now. Also, it has little nitpicks, like the absence of Doc (MLG) or Cloud in the top row because the autor of the chart claims that "Anti won CEO mostly with Mario".

MLG is not a major.

He explained that already.

If it was, then Doc and Ike would be on the list.

 

[Nobie]

I had to think about this for a moment, but if the lasers are hitting, then shouldn't it KO earlier the higher up Falco is on the platforms of Dreamland? I can't of why an additional attack that hits closer to the blast zone would KO later than the previous that started lower outside of, which isn't the case for Falco's lasers, the hit angles were horizontal or were in the 270 range pushing people down.

The only reason I can think of why his U-throw would KO later the higher he is up is the laser completely missing because Mario or whoever flew past the blast zone, but if you're sure and I'd assume you be since training mode has a hit counter, then that's just weird.


Meanwhile, Peach is sitting alone somewhere crying to herself. That or Peach's Toad (Abuse) doesn't work for whatever reason.

Ah, actually, the problem is that I originally put in the numbers wrong and even though I swore I fixed it, it didn't save for whatever reason. Should be fixed now.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I decided to make a tier list based on results (and results only, so it's not a 100% accurate tier list).

The data is taken from Das Koopa's excellent thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Based on top 16 weighted.

Unsurprisingly, is #1, with #2. is #3, which makes the argument that Cloud shouldn't be top 5 because of a lack of results rather lackluster. You might argue that he has flaws that keeps him out of top 5, but he doesn't lack results. #4 is , #5 , #6 . at #11 is interesting, as is for #13. #16 is also interesting. Seems Mewtwo has some high quality players but lacks the quantity to get placed higher.

has better results than . isn't even bottom 20, going by results alone.

 

[Ffamran]

Ah, actually, the problem is that I originally put in the numbers wrong and even though I swore I fixed it, it didn't save for whatever reason. Should be fixed now.

Okay, that makes more sense... For a moment, I thought some shenanigans were happened like lasers cancels out the old knockback, game tries and fails to add in new knockback while the thrown person is flying, and something stupid happens.

Wouldn't have been surprised if that was the case, but it would have had the opposite affect... I think I remember, but this was from way back, that because of how Rosalina and Luma can hit in succession, weird things can happen where her moves KO way earlier because Luma's knockback is applied or something. I don't remember and it's probably not the case.

 

[Jehtt]

Kamemushi's recent match up chart has Megaman as 4.5:6.5 versus Meta Knight. Can any Megaman mains present give justification for why Meta Knight might have a slight advantage?

Meta Knight's dash attack is a great tool against Mega Man. It can safely clank with his projectiles and can get underneath Mega Man's shorthop. The move also leads to juggles, of course, which Mega Man is very susceptible too. Additionally, Meta Knight can do nasty things to Mega Man off-stage and can get a lot of damage that way, if not outright kill him.
I think the matchup is even. Although MK does have ways to through Mega Man's wall, MK can find himself getting stuck at max lemon distance. It's risky for Meta Knight try Dash Attack from this distance since Mega Man shielding it leads to a Shoryuken punish, which kills Meta Knight at stupid percents.
Obviously, there is more to the matchup than Dash Attack but I do think a lot of interactions stem from the threat of it, since it's MK's best tool to force his way through lemons.

 

[Locke 06]

Kamemushi's recent match up chart has Megaman as 4.5:6.5 versus Meta Knight. Can any Megaman mains present give justification for why Meta Knight might have a slight advantage?

DA out of hitstun of unsafe pellets on hit is strong. As is up smash/tornado to catch landings. Edge guarding at high % is strong when weak NAir is enough to put MegaMan far enough away to get back into position to do another one.

Obv, you know the flip side with pellets stuffing DA often and up air being very good vs his fallspeed/airspeed and multi jump baiting. I think it's easier to learn the matchup from MK's side due to his reward being larger from DA.

Also, Kamemushi is a very MB heavy mega imo and pellets are much stronger here. It's very hard to setup a footstool on the "rarely approaching from the air" Metaknight.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Underrated: (She still is a low tier but those buffs have helped a lot, good combos, recovery and a hoo-hah. Phantom Slash is a great tool for ledge play if your opponent doesn't have a reflector, Naryu's is a good get off me tool and helps slow down aggressive projectiles like R.O.B Gyro. I think she's around 45th-ish now) (Sure he ain't no where near as good since his nerf but she still has crazy combos and fairly safe smash attacks a solid mid tier everyone seemed to just completely drop.)(Gatekeeper to high tier this may be more my salt than anything but Side B is REALLY stupid, near unreactable, kills, combos, can recover with, ledge guards,can use as a escape tool so on and so on. I'm not even sure how slower characters are supposed to deal with Corrin)

Overrated:(Not by a lot,True Shoryu is too good)(Still a low tier)

 

[Mr. Johan]

Hmm, that counter thing could be quite troublesome if it becomes commonplace.

Bayonetta getting free Witch Times out of shield when she thought WT would be just too slow or risky to throw out in the first place? Corrin's super fast frame 4 dash -> shield frames getting rewarded with an 85% kill?

I dunno, it just feels like an overlooked exploit that can quickly become abusive.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Hmm, that counter thing could be quite troublesome if it becomes commonplace.

Bayonetta getting free Witch Times out of shield when she thought WT would be just too slow or risky to throw out in the first place? Corrin's super fast frame 4 dash -> shield frames getting rewarded with an 85% kill?

I dunno, it just feels like an overlooked exploit that can quickly become abusive.

Someone said it doesn't work with Bayo.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Why wouldn't it work with Bayo?

If the countered move's hitbox was deactivated off the shield, Bayonetta literally incurs no risk to throwing it out OoS, because there's no hitbox to get in the way.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Someone said it doesn't work with Bayo.

Really? I'd like a source on that.

 

[Locke 06]

Hmm, that counter thing could be quite troublesome if it becomes commonplace.

Bayonetta getting free Witch Times out of shield when she thought WT would be just too slow or risky to throw out in the first place? Corrin's super fast frame 4 dash -> shield frames getting rewarded with an 85% kill?

I dunno, it just feels like an overlooked exploit that can quickly become abusive.

pls no. It's not that fast.

PS punishes are generally stronger than these counters on long lasting hitboxes like these. Bayo being an exception, if it works. Like, it'd work on blocking Link's spin attack and then countering... or you could block and fsmash.

 

[Mr. Johan]

PS punishes are generally stronger, yes. If you know what exactly hit you and how the opponent will move after the hit.

Counters being able to do this effectively give the Counter characters a "You lose" button no matter where the opponent is at. There's no guesswork, whether marginal or not otherwise.

Will Cloud cross you up with his landing Dair or will he land in front of you? Will the Dash Attack on shield put them behind you or in front? Out of powershield, the shielder still has to see the opponent's position and work off that for maximum punish. With counters, especially Corrin's and Bayonetta's, that effort is removed.

 

[Jams.]

Hmm, that counter thing could be quite troublesome if it becomes commonplace.

Bayonetta getting free Witch Times out of shield when she thought WT would be just too slow or risky to throw out in the first place? Corrin's super fast frame 4 dash -> shield frames getting rewarded with an 85% kill?

I dunno, it just feels like an overlooked exploit that can quickly become abusive.

It's not as practical as you might think, because it doesn't work on the majority of moves. I'll use Diddy's fair as an example of a lingering hitbox. That move is active from frames 6-16. Let's assume Corrin powershields the move on frame 6 so she has the maximum amount of time available to counter. She goes through 5 frames of powershield shieldstun, at which point there are 6 frames left to counter the move. However, Corrin's counter becomes active frame 7, so she can't counter Diddy's fair after shielding the attack, even under optimal conditions.

Most moves in this game have far fewer than 11 active frames. I can only see this being applicable to incredibly long lingering aerials like nairs or dairs, and in a few special cases like Tatsumaki or Link's Spin Attack. Even then, as Locke mentioned, it may not be the optimal punish option. This tech is going to be incredibly MU dependent at best.

Why wouldn't it work with Bayo?

If the countered move's hitbox was deactivated off the shield, Bayonetta literally incurs no risk to throwing it out OoS, because there's no hitbox to get in the way.

Bayo's counter is the only one that affects KO Punch, so there might be something special with the way it's programmed. Not saying that it doesn't work because I haven't found that reputable source make that claim, but it is possible.

 

[ARISTOS]

Nothing gets this thread more active than ****ting on characters, lol

In regards to this

There's really nothing, nothing at all that bugs me more in tier lists than people using raw results to determine their thoughts in a tier list.

I'm looking at your tier list to see what you think of the current metagame. "I want to place this character higher or lower but I can't because of results." Have an actual opinion. Results are conditional and people often fail to realize that, which is why discussing viability primarily through results is fundamentally flawed. A character will be perceived higher if it is constantly in the limelight, seeing high placings and such, but that doesn't tell you anything close to the whole story. What did their bracket look like? How consistent is this player? What did the sets look like...was everyone playing well (EVO is a really good counterexample of of this situation)...who did this person who placed poorly lose to...is it a personal matchup problem... Looking at raw results doesn't explain the whys and hows, but people do it regardless and it's a completely worthless endeavor. Even though I disagree with some of his conclusions, FeelMeUp is doing a better job of this than anyone else in this thread. Instead of crumbling in the face of raw results, he seeks to explain more of why and how they occur to gain meaningful conclusions instead of results just being numbers with limited value to measure characters.

With that in mind, Cloud is being severely underrated in this thread because of his perceived decline. I've seen people say Cloud isn't top 5 because of his results. With M2K not even entering CEO or EVO in mind, are you kidding me? Not only is it hard for me to believe that this is ignored, but you're telling me that a character who loses only one matchup and wins against half of the top tiers is not even top 5. Cloud beats as many top 10 characters as Mario does in the entire top 20. The character is good in every state except offstage, with a top 5 neutral and one of the scariest advantage states in the game. Look, I think Sheik is the best in the game. I'm not saying Cloud is the best character. But considering how exceptional his theory remains, and with the uncertainty surrounding his 'declining results' without the best Cloud even entering, I don't see how you can reasonably argue that Cloud isn't even top 5.

I tend to look towards results because I think common conceptions of MUs are very nebulous and short sighted. How often did we hear "Rosa gets shafted by Cloud,"? How often did we hear "Pikachu has a great MU spread"?

We make these MU spreads, and they are often colored by common perceptions. Majority opinion can sometimes lead to great solutions but it can often lead to massive groupthink as well.

If Cloud's MU spread is as good as in reality as it is in theory, then we should be seeing that reflected in his results. As is, we only see Cloud dominating at the low-mid level (highlighted in the peewee tournament Nintendo threw last week).

 

[FeelMeUp]

pikachu does have a great matchup spread, though
don't blame the character for his best rep being the most inconsistent "top" player of them all.

 

[Mario766]

pls no. It's not that fast.

PS punishes are generally stronger than these counters on long lasting hitboxes like these. Bayo being an exception, if it works. Like, it'd work on blocking Link's spin attack and then countering... or you could block and fsmash.

This can effectively punish Cloud limit AC D-Air. Even on PS that's hard to punish.

Also, every DA that is heavily used ala MK/Fox/Falcon can be hit with this, making it less of a 50/50 at high percents and more of a "If I hard read, you lose" game.

I haven't seen anyone lab it besides frame 6-7 counters, so we don't know how usable this really is yet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I really wanna know who overrates Ryu...ya know besides people that PLAY other top tier chars that beat him in the match.

I notice specifically Diddy mains and Sheik mains love to hype Ryu. OMG True shoryu.

*Rolls eyes*

Ryu doesnt even hold a candle to their tourney record or match-up spread.

foh.

 

[Ninety]

For the record, the Reddit thread about the Power Counter (apparently that's what they wanna call it) specified it only works on single-hit moves with lingering hitboxes -- multihits and moves that end in the time between the powershield and the counter are safe from it. So it's good against the likes of Cloud's dair or sex kick nairs, but not so much against Sheik or Pit fair.