Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[NewZen]

Also what characters do you think are overrated or underrated ?

Underrated:
Overrated:

 

[FeelMeUp]

Erm, so, I've been thinking about picking up Roy, recently, since I like him as a character and as Smash fighter...
Where did they go so wrong with him?...
How do they screw up the same character twice? I mean, they screwed up Zelda 3 times but that's one character, now we have two getting this treatment?

Not 5 minutes ago, I was struck with his Sourspot Down Smash while I was at 160% using Lucina. I was close to the edge of the stage, and Roy had 110% on him.
The knockback was barely enough to make me go offscreen. I know that is just a drop in the ocean of problems Roy has, but... why? Was this intentional, is this supposed to be funny?

I want you guys to tell me realistically what's Roy's niche in this game. What does he do that no one else can do better than him? Also, I want you guys to tell me how 9 out of 10 people used to think he was High Tier a year ago. I was one of those people...

Sorry for venting like this... I didn't want to see a character like him so bad.


Ayy, what?
I always thought Mario was even with Ryu, Sheik, Mewtwo and Rosa (nowadays, atleast) and actually won against Diddy +1. Marth is -1, I agree.
Where did you even get these numbers from?

-1 would be 55:45
so doable but still slightly losing
which MU would you like me to explain first.

 

[EternalFlare]

-1 mus vs almost every top tier(Ryu, Cloud, Marth[if you want to consider him one now], Sheik, Diddy, m2, rosa, etc) and has clear flaws that are very simple to exploit with a lot of good characters.
most people are letting mario do his own thing by jumping into him and getting usmashed, not respecting his grab enough, letting him recover for free, etc
the whole "mario is top 5" thing is really ridiculous in my opinion. he doesn't have a lot of the "who designed this" top tier qualities the other contenders like fox sheik diddy rosa and sonic do.
he's a respectable 7-9 though.

I disagree.

All those matchups could be seen as even or better looking at tournament results where top Marios have beaten the best players of all those characters you mentioned with the exception of Rosalina. And even then only one Rosalina consistently beats top Marios, the rest lose.

If you respect his up Smash by blocking you're in danger of getting grabbed. If you respect his grab by jumping you're in danger of getting up Smashed which has invulnerability and thus will beat any hitbox you throw out as well. That's why they work so often, Mario has a great mixup between the two.

It's hard not to let Mario recovery for free. How do you consistently challenge an up B that's both disjointed and comes out too fast to react to? The only thing I can think of is high active frame aerials but by then you're only trading with soft hits he'll survive from anyway. And given Mario's high mobility, he can often just use that without having to rely on a recovery move to get back.

To call Mario top 5 would not be a stretch at this point.

 

[FamilyTeam]

-1 would be 55:45
so doable but still slightly losing
which MU would you like me to explain first.

All of them.
Because aside from Marth, they're wrong. Like, almost objectively wrong. I haven't even seen anyone make such claims before.

 

[NewZen]

Also, since someone brought up Falco, I felt the need to ask what potential changes to his overall game plan could make him, well...more than average? As others have posted, he relies on a decent punish game in order to shine and while he can go on the offensive, his neutral game is mediocre and can lead to quite a number of problems (Of course he has his D-Throw Setups into F-Air, N-air, and decent Smash attacks), I'm curious to know how he has a hard time securing KOs at kill percents (This is something I've seen on other boards and forums a while ago).

 

[FeelMeUp]

All of them.
Because aside from Marth, they're wrong. Like, almost objectively wrong. I haven't even seen anyone make such claims before.

-1 would be 55:45
so doable but still slightly losing
which MU would you like me to explain first.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Also, since someone brought up Falco, I felt the need to ask what potential changes to his overall game plan could make him, well...more than average? As others have posted, he relies on a decent punish game in order to shine and while he can go on the offensive, his neutral game is mediocre and can lead to quite a number of problems (Of course he has his D-Throw Setups into F-Air, N-air, and decent Smash attacks), I'm curious to know how he has a hard time securing KOs at kill percents (This is something I've seen on other boards and forums a while ago).

If they cut a chunk of endlag off of his laser (ground laser 59 --> 40, aerial laser 50 --> 39) he'd instantly shoot up some tiers.

He has a difficult time orienting the opponent into Hs danger zone. Lasers would help remedy that.

 

[EternalFlare]

I think Ryu definitely loses to Mario.

-If he's forced to hurricane kick, he's dead no questions asked, thanks to cape or FLUDD then cape (to force out the option)
-Ryu being a heavy and somewhat fastfaller makes him get comboed hard by Mario.
-Mario's dair is a fantastically safe move that also will break focus attack making it great both in neutral and while juggling Ryu
-From afar Mario's projectile is much, much better than Ryus being able to move around the stage as he does it
-Mario's rather floaty nature + 3 frame nair means he escapes Ryu's combos early

So whether it's close range, long range, during juggles/combos or offstage, Ryu struggles versus Mario and really has to outplay him hard to win.

If they cut a chunk of endlag off of his laser (ground laser 59 --> 40, aerial laser 50 --> 39) he'd instantly shoot up some tiers.

He has a difficult time orienting the opponent into Hs danger zone. Lasers would help remedy that.

Agreed. Buff his grounded laser and give him the ability to do one lagless laser in the air. Even with that, he'd be far from overpowered. As of now, there's little reason to use him over Fox.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's very easy to mess up with Ryu as his inputs overlap. Even the best players make execution errors.

I've seen countless matches where top players SDed for instance and not in a pressure situation.

So to dismiss a match because of something so relatively minor is a bit silly. Though I suspect you're trolling at this point.

do you need me to do a complete break down of how lacking that Ryus neutral game was and how poor his overall decision making was?

The Falco was exquisite tho

 

[FamilyTeam]

FeelMeUp Explain Diddy, then.
I'll be thrilled to hear how he loses in a matchup a lot of people agree he wins.

 

[Aaron1997]

UnderRated

OverRated

 

[EternalFlare]

do you need me to do a complete break down of how lacking that Ryus neutral game was and how poor his overall decision making was?

The Falco was exquisite tho

Sure, I could learn a thing or two.

I never claimed the Ryu play was amazing, just that dismissing it to due to one small, very understandable tech error made little sense. But clearly you have bigger reasons than that.

 

[TDK]

I want you guys to tell me realistically what's Roy's niche in this game. What does he do that no one else can do better than him? Also, I want you guys to tell me how 9 out of 10 people used to think he was High Tier a year ago. I was one of those people...

Nobody knew how to combat the character, so his combo game and fast speed combined with kill power (sounds like pre-patch sheik or diddy now that I'm listing it out) worked. Then people began to exploit his awful disadvantage and it went downhill from there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sure, I could learn a thing or two.

I never claimed the Ryu play was amazing, just that dismissing it to due to one small, very understandable tech error made little sense. But clearly you have bigger reasons than that.

nah im too lazy right now lol

But the Falco had much stronger fundamentals. I mean the Ryu jumped at Falco....wtf why? Ryu has no reason to really ever leave the ground other then to re-adjust himself.

also...you claim you feel Ryu has potential yet you thnk Mario beats him?

I think your love of Ryu is causing you to want certain things that do not line up with your perception of what the game actually is.

 

[EternalFlare]

Getting back to Mario, it's easy to say "lulz don't get hit by his obvious up Smashes you fool" or "don't get grabbed".

But the truth is between up Smash and grab Mario covers virtually all the options in neutral you could pick. Almost every option that beats grab loses to up Smash and vice versa.

The most effective answer seems to be to simply run away entirely and hope the Mario gets impatient. But by running away you surrender stage control (which is something you need to run away in the first place). And not every character is Sonic who can get back stage control for free. It's basically pick your poison.

nah im too lazy right now.

But the Falco had much stronger fundamentals. I mean the Ryu jumped at Falco....wtf why? Ryu has no reason to really ever leave the ground other then to re-adjust himself.

also...you claim you feel Ryu has potential yet you thnk Mario beats him?

I think your love of Ryu is causing you to want certain things that do not line up with your perception of what the game actually is.

Yes which is why I think Mario beats him currently. I can only discuss matchups based off the current meta, not a possible future one which might never happen.

At any rate I think the Mario matchup is bad enough where even if later Ryu starts getting big results at majors, I can see him still losing to all the top Marios. But I think a character can still be top tier (which I don't think Ryu currently is of course) with a bad matchup or two.

 

[FeelMeUp]

FeelMeUp Explain Diddy, then.
I'll be thrilled to hear how he loses in a matchup a lot of people agree he wins.

Let it be known that I'm using the sets between Zinoto/ZeRo and Ally/Anti to draw conclusions.
I'll get started. I have a rather unusual way of talking about matchups, so bear with me.
Mario:
+Can throw combo Diddy extremely well due to weight and fallspeed
+Has the OoS options to make Diddy's shield pressure not as "free"
+Ridiculously good at edgeguarding Diddy
+Gets more % off of grabs around 10-40 than Diddy
+Rushes Diddy down so well that he often can't play with banana at all(any set of Ally vs ZeRo is a pretty good example of this)
+Pretty good at trapping Diddy's landings
-Horrible at approaching Diddy without run up grab(which is stuffed by banana toss and dtilt)
-Dies to Diddy extremely early and can't win a 100-100 situation safely due to Diddy's ability to camp shield/roll with banana in hand and confirm into kills. Should always die around 90-130 because of his perfect weight and size for standard Diddy combos.
-Can't play around dtilt much if at all without shield. A whiffed grab is a HEFTY punish, banana or not, because of this. Even trading grab with dtilt is awful.
-Not great at punishing high monkey flip aside from when Diddy's already at kill %
-Loses every air to air situation with Diddy in neutral
-Has to overcommit to every approach in order to threaten a defensive Diddy that focuses on nothing but banana confirms and getting the consistent 20-30%/stock
Mario loses terribly in neutral(your only option is "run at Diddy and play grappler"), dies earlier aside from gimps, gets combo'd harder aside from Mario grabbing Diddy, etc.
The matchup isn't awful by any means, but Diddy just outrewards Mario and kills earlier unless the Diddy makes a horrible mistake(airdodging on dthrow at the edge, for example).
Walk around dtilt, fair on jump ins, bair mixups OoS, and throwing banana around out of holding shield is how the MU should be played. Just because you see ZeRo jump into Usmashes and hand Ally gimps doesn't mean Diddy suddenly loses the MU.
Next character?

 

[TDK]

Even though the falco player was clearly outplaying the Ryu player, falco sure seemed to have a strong punish game and other qualities in compensation for a sub-par neutral (cuz good buttons and bad mobility).

The ryu broke shield, then fully charged an up smash before he noticed he was facing the wrong direction.

 

[C0rvus]

I can't say who is underrated or overrated because tbh I'm not sure how many characters are rated! Opinions differ quite a bit around here, as nutty as that sounds. There are characters who I have changed opinion of recently, or feel I could personally be rating wrong. Others I am just plain unsure of how they are received at high level.

Cloud, as much as he still gives me trouble, I cannot help but feel I have overrated. He's been a top 5 staple, top 3 even; and tbh he might be lower even now. In time, no doubt he'll drop. His ceiling looks pretty low and it's ultimately his lacking ground game that I think hurts him the most. He will still be a gatekeeper, as he bulldozes a lot of lower tiered characters.

I still try and see the good in this character, and haven't ever really been able to form a particularly strong opinion of him. I've heard he's not good. I just don't know, really.

Lucario is very good. He has solo mains in Japan who place well, he has Serge, Day has done well in the US lately. Don't sleep on him, he still functions at low to mid aura and isn't just a broken gimmick.

Someday, I legit think he will be considered better than Ness. He's a totally different character, but he has some relevance, and some niche good MUs, like Mario. Conversely, I find Ness overrated atm. Or not? Idk what people really think of him, but I know opinions have dropped a bit lately.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think Ness really sucks, actually.
The additions of Cloud and Corrin really didn't help him at all.

 

[EternalFlare]

Let it be known that I'm using the sets between Zinoto/ZeRo and Ally/Anti to draw conclusions.
I'll get started. I have a rather unusual way of talking about matchups, so bear with me.
Mario:
+Can throw combo Diddy extremely well due to weight and fallspeed
+Has the OoS options to make Diddy's shield pressure not as "free"
+Ridiculously good at edgeguarding Diddy
+Gets more % off of grabs around 10-40 than Diddy
+Rushes Diddy down so well that he often can't play with banana at all(any set of Ally vs ZeRo is a pretty good example of this)
+Pretty good at trapping Diddy's landings
-Dies to Diddy extremely early and can't win a 100-100 situation safely due to Diddy's ability to camp shield/roll with banana in hand and confirm into kills. Should always die around 90-130 because of his perfect weight and size for standard Diddy combos.
-Can't play around dtilt much if at all without shield. A whiffed grab is a HEFTY punish, banana or not, because of this. Even trading grab with dtilt is awful.
-Not great at punishing high monkey flip aside from when Diddy's already at kill %
-Loses every air to air situation with Diddy in neutral
-Has to overcommit to every approach in order to threaten a defensive Diddy that focuses on nothing but banana confirms and getting the consistent 20-30%/stock
Mario loses terribly in neutral(your only option is "run at Diddy and play grappler"), dies earlier aside from gimps, gets combo'd harder aside from Mario grabbing Diddy, etc.
The matchup isn't awful by any means, but Diddy just outrewards Mario and kills earlier unless the Diddy makes a horrible mistake(airdodging on dthrow at the edge, for example).
Walk around dtilt, fair on jump ins, bair mixups OoS, and throwing banana around out of holding shield is how the MU should be played. Just because you see ZeRo jump into Usmashes and hand Ally gimps doesn't mean Diddy suddenly loses the MU.
Next character?

Combo wise they are probably even. Diddy's damage output is more consistent with banana + throw but Mario with the right percent and rage can get massive conversions in the matchup. Whether it be true combos or 50/50s.

You're downplaying Mario's neutral. He can be extremely ambiguous with aerial approaches and baits and who says he has to approach if he has the lead anyway? He can throw full hop fireballs all day if he wants or charge FLUDD and use it to gain stage control.

Zero doesn't hand out gimps, Diddy just happens to be a very gimpable character and Mario has an excellent edge guard game, you do the math. If he just side Bs high he takes up airs and up Bs or bairs which will eventually start killing . Plus recovering high means there's a chance Mairo catches your landing with an up Smash.

Speaking of up Smash, I explained this a bit above. Trying to avoid the grab often gets you up Smashed, it's a 50/50. I watched one Zinoto vs Ally set where he chose to just sit in shield forever refusing to get hit by up Smash. But then he just got grabbed over and over eventually dying to that. If Mario's throws had little to no kill power, it'd be a different story. It's not just back throw either, there's down throw to up air which kills at the right percent/rage and down throw fair 50/50s.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I'm going to need more information to prove that Gunner has a neutral that can be better than both Sheik's and Diddy's.

Sure. Let me know if you have any questions about certain aspects of Gunner's neutral game. I would give more information about Gunner's neutral, but my phone is about to die.

Gunner's fair allows Gunner to convert into good damage and kills from a very safe range. Some of the combos Gunner can get from fair include charge blast, RAR bair, and dash attack at low to mid percents. Gunner's fair to charge blast is also a 50-50 at high percents. Gunner's bair is also pretty safe on shield when spaced properly, and it can trip opponents at low percents and set up tech chases at mid to high percents. Gunner's nair is decently safe on shield when spaced properly, and it can lead to a grab at low percents and set up tech chases at mid to high percents. Gunner's ftilt can trip opponents at low percents and it can set up tech chases at mid to high percents. Gunner can cancel jab 1 or jab 2 into any tilt, smash attack, charge blast, grab, or dash attack, and these mixups can cover most defensive options of the opponent.

Gunner's neutral game is one of the main reasons why Gunner does well against Diddy Kong and Sheik (To my knowledge Gunner is 2-2 in sets against Diddy Kong and 3-2 in games against Sheik). Gunner is able to control mid to long range against them both with charge blast and fair.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I think is overrated. Granted I think she's better than ESAM gives her credit for but she's still overrated. Like Mewtwo, her results are thinly spread compared to Diddy, Sheik, Mario, Sonic, and Fox. She has strong punishes but people seem to have adapted well and developed counterplay to her gameplan. She also loses to which is kinda a big deal for her bracket success.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Let it be known that I'm using the sets between Zinoto/ZeRo and Ally/Anti to draw conclusions.
I'll get started. I have a rather unusual way of talking about matchups, so bear with me.
Mario:
+Can throw combo Diddy extremely well due to weight and fallspeed
+Has the OoS options to make Diddy's shield pressure not as "free"
+Ridiculously good at edgeguarding Diddy
+Gets more % off of grabs around 10-40 than Diddy
+Rushes Diddy down so well that he often can't play with banana at all(any set of Ally vs ZeRo is a pretty good example of this)
+Pretty good at trapping Diddy's landings
-Horrible at approaching Diddy without run up grab(which is stuffed by banana toss and dtilt)
-Dies to Diddy extremely early and can't win a 100-100 situation safely due to Diddy's ability to camp shield/roll with banana in hand and confirm into kills. Should always die around 90-130 because of his perfect weight and size for standard Diddy combos.
-Can't play around dtilt much if at all without shield. A whiffed grab is a HEFTY punish, banana or not, because of this. Even trading grab with dtilt is awful.
-Not great at punishing high monkey flip aside from when Diddy's already at kill %
-Loses every air to air situation with Diddy in neutral
-Has to overcommit to every approach in order to threaten a defensive Diddy that focuses on nothing but banana confirms and getting the consistent 20-30%/stock
Mario loses terribly in neutral(your only option is "run at Diddy and play grappler"), dies earlier aside from gimps, gets combo'd harder aside from Mario grabbing Diddy, etc.
The matchup isn't awful by any means, but Diddy just outrewards Mario and kills earlier unless the Diddy makes a horrible mistake(airdodging on dthrow at the edge, for example).
Walk around dtilt, fair on jump ins, bair mixups OoS, and throwing banana around out of holding shield is how the MU should be played. Just because you see ZeRo jump into Usmashes and hand Ally gimps doesn't mean Diddy suddenly loses the MU.
Next character?

You are honestly making this sound worse than it actually is. Ally isn't just the only example available, and even if he was, he'd be a damn good one, especially after how many times he alone showed how it can be played around.
I've never really seen a Diddy kill a Mario so early, as well, and I don't even see how that can be the case, especially when we see Ally escaping things like D-Tilt to Up Smash and whatever things he has up his sleeve.
But I don't feel like prolonguing anyway.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Combo wise they are probably even. Diddy's damage output is more consistent with banana + throw but Mario with the right percent and rage can get massive conversions in the matchup. Whether it be true combos or 50/50s.

Mario will certainly outdamage Diddy when he gets a grab, but won't necessarily do so off of safe stray hits.

You're downplaying Mario's neutral. He can be extremely ambiguous with aerial approaches and baits and who says he has to approach if he has the lead anyway? He can throw full hop fireballs all day if he wants.

Mario jumps towards you. He will either dair or nair. Dair is the option that's extremely hard to defend against, but nair is simple. Banana OoS is f7 and bair OoS is f9. Both are fully capable of punishing crossups on shield(though fadeback reverse nair to jab is crazy hard to respond to).
and why are you assuming Mario has the lead?

Zero doesn't hand out gimps, Diddy just happens to be a very gimpable character and Mario has an excellent agressive edge guard game, you do the Math. If he just side Bs high he takes up airs and up Bs or bairs which will eventually start killing . Plus recovering high means there's a chance Mairo catches your landing with an up Smash.

ZeRo definitely hands out gimps to everyone. He's one of the most uncomfortable offstage of any top player, and this was true even during his winstreak. The guy's recovery options are always very telegraphed and he often panics to choose whatever will get him back quickest. If even I, a mid level player, can pick up on habits that can be exploited for stocks(i.e ZeRo always falling below the edge with an airdodge then rocket barreling up for a ledgesnap) I'm sure all of the top players know about and exploit them easily. Which is why he gets gimped the way he does in games where he loses neutral too often.

Speaking of up Smash, I explained this a bit above. Trying to avoid the grab often gets you up Smashed, it's a 50/50. I watched one Zinoto vs Ally set where he chose to just sit in shield forever refusing to get hit by up Smash. But then he just got grabbed over and over eventually dying to that.

No it doesn't. What does Mario do if Diddy walks around/shields with banana in hand? Usmashes his shield and gets banana punished? Grabs him and gets.....hey, nothing guaranteed? Zinoto lost because he REFUSED

Sure. Let me know if you have any questions about certain aspects of Gunner's neutral game. I would give more information about Gunner's neutral, but my phone is about to die.

Gunner's fair allows Gunner to convert into good damage and kills from a very safe range. Some of the combos Gunner can get from fair include charge blast, RAR bair, and dash attack at low to mid percents. Gunner's fair to charge blast is also a 50-50 at high percents. Gunner's bair is also pretty safe on shield when spaced properly, and it can trip opponents at low percents and set up tech chases at mid to high percents. Gunner's nair is decently safe on shield when spaced properly, and it can lead to a grab at low percents and set up tech chases at mid to high percents. Gunner's ftilt can trip opponents at low percents and it can set up tech chases at mid to high percents. Gunner can cancel jab 1 or jab 2 into any tilt, smash attack, charge blast, grab, or dash attack, and these mixups can cover most defensive options of the opponent.

Gunner's neutral game is one of the main reasons why Gunner does well against Diddy Kong and Sheik (To my knowledge Gunner is 2-2 in sets against Diddy Kong and 3-2 in games against Sheik). Gunner is able to control mid to long range against them both with charge blast and fair.

How does Gunner do against Rosa, Mario, and Sonic? I think these answers will help me paint a bigger picture of how the character functions.

You are honestly making this sound worse than it actually is. Ally isn't just the only example available, and even if he was, he'd be a damn good one, especially after how many times he alone showed how it can be played around.
I've never really seen a Diddy kill a Mario so early, as well, and I don't even see how that can be the case, especially when we see Ally escaping things like D-Tilt to Up Smash and whatever things he has up his sleeve.
But I don't feel like prolonguing anyway.

but I.....literally just said I used Anti as well, lmao. Am I not supposed to use the 2 best reps of the character?
Am I supposed to ignore the games where Anti was forced off of Mario in the Diddy Mario MU after getting slapped around because of the exact points I just mentioned?
and if you didn't know, banana>dtilt>[insert smash attack] is guaranteed.
add fsmash and mario dies at 90

 

[LancerStaff]

Erm, so, I've been thinking about picking up Roy, recently, since I like him as a character and as Smash fighter...
Where did they go so wrong with him?...
How do they screw up the same character twice? I mean, they screwed up Zelda 3 times but that's one character, now we have two getting this treatment?

Not 5 minutes ago, I was struck with his Sourspot Down Smash while I was at 160% using Lucina. I was close to the edge of the stage, and Roy had 110% on him.
The knockback was barely enough to make me go offscreen. I know that is just a drop in the ocean of problems Roy has, but... why? Was this intentional, is this supposed to be funny?

I want you guys to tell me realistically what's Roy's niche in this game. What does he do that no one else can do better than him? Also, I want you guys to tell me how 9 out of 10 people used to think he was High Tier a year ago. I was one of those people...

Sorry for venting like this... I didn't want to see a character like him so bad.

Even for me, characters like Zelda and DDD have an excuse: FFAs. Roy? Can't even do that right. He's hopelessly outclassed in every way. Good mobility and power on a swordsman? Marth. Wanna "not care about spacing"? Any other swordsman. Wanna take forever to charge and unleash a super powerful move? Cloud. Takes 100 frames longer and is weaker but can be interrupted, so...

Roy's fundamental design of "swordsman with useless tippers" is just garbage. The good tippers he has now I'm chalking up to simply them not noticing. Zero thought went into him in Melee, and no thought went into him when they wanted to cash in on Melee nostalgia.

 

[EternalFlare]

Mario will certainly outdamage Diddy when he gets a grab, but won't necessarily do so off of safe stray hits.

Mario jumps towards you. He will either dair or nair. Dair is the option that's extremely hard to defend against, but nair is simple. Banana OoS is f7 and bair OoS is f9. Both are fully capable of punishing crossups on shield(though fadeback reverse nair to jab is crazy hard to respond to).
and why are you assuming Mario has the lead?

ZeRo definitely hands out gimps to everyone. He's one of the most uncomfortable offstage of any top player, and this was true even during his winstreak. The guy's recovery options are always very telegraphed and he often panics to choose whatever will get him back quickest. If even I, a mid level player, can pick up on habits that can be exploited for stocks(i.e ZeRo always falling below the edge with an airdodge then rocket barreling up for a ledgesnap) I'm sure all of the top players know about and exploit them easily. Which is why he gets gimped the way he does in games where he loses neutral too often.

No it doesn't. What does Mario do if Diddy walks around/shields with banana in hand? Usmashes his shield and gets banana punished? Grabs him and gets.....hey, nothing guaranteed? Zinoto lost because he REFUSED


How does Gunner do against Rosa, Mario, and Sonic? I think these answers will help me paint a bigger picture of how the character functions.

but I.....literally just said I used Anti as well, lmao. Am I not supposed to use the 2 best reps of the character?
Am I supposed to ignore the games where Anti was forced off of Mario in the Diddy Mario MU after getting slapped around because of the exact points I just mentioned?
and if you didn't know, banana>dtilt>[insert smash attack] is guaranteed.
add fsmash and mario dies at 90

Mario gets a guaranteed kill off backthrow starting at roughly 140 if Diddy just walks around and blocks. Or down throw up airs or fairs which are 50/50s and can potentially kill even earlier. That's very far from nothing. You should really go watch Ally and ZInoto's most recent (?) set. Trying desperately to avoid Up Smash by sitting in shield with or without a banana gets you grabbed over and over.

Why am I assuming Mario will have the lead? I'm not, but it could and does happen in the course of a match. Just like how Diddy won't always have a banana in hand. And Diddy actually has to take risks to try to pull one unless the Mario is a full screen away.

When Zero recovers high it's not because he thinks it's unpredictable. Going low for Diddy is very scary because any move can interrupt his up B which is an instant death for Diddy unlike other characters that get their up Bs interrupted (as he can't act immediately afterwords and by the time he can, it's usually too late). That's why Diddys opt for forced high recoveries sometimes as opposed to risking a low recovery that gets read such as in your example allowing him to die at any percent.

Oh and Mario dying to Fsmash at 90 is a gross exaggeration. That's only if Diddy has some rage and Mario is already at the very edge of the stage. In which case banana to Fsmash will whiff btw. And downtilt to fsmash doesn't even work with too much rage and/or if they DI away. That's like suggesting Mario kills consistently off backthrow at 100, just have plenty of rage with them in the corner and hope they DI poorly.

 

[chaos11011]

UnderRated

OverRated

UnderRated

OverRated

Duck Hunt is perfectly rated. He has some tools, but anyone who knows the match up can make him a sinch. Clay Pigeons are slow and break, Cans can be hit back and rendered useless. His FAir and BAir have hurtboxes on the beak, making zoning with him counter productive. FTilt and DTilt can never combo.

Duck Hunt only has two things going for him: His specials, IF they hit, can combo into a myriad of things, including kill confirms, and that theoretically, by utilizing fox trots inbetween neutral Bs, you can keep a Can near or inside you at all times and give Duck Hunt protection. However, good luck on the latter, I've been labbing that for a couple months now and it's one thing to do it in training mode and another to do it while also focusing on a competent opponent/the match.

You get punished for using a Clay Pigeon even as far as half a stage away or less. And they can shield from that far with half the reaction time


Duck Hunt sucks, pick up Sheik.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Banana dtilt fsmash is guaranteed if Diddy walks forward after banana and hits with the inside of dtilt. It seems like you don't understand what the character is capable of.....

Offtopic but slightly switching gears:
Is ZeRo's losers run at EVO the best in Smash 4 history? I honestly think that's the best he's ever played.
I wonder how things would've gone if he got to practice with Scatt/Kame didn't deny him friendlies.

 

[EternalFlare]

Banana dtilt fsmash is guaranteed if Diddy walks forward after banana and hits with the inside of dtilt. It seems like you don't understand what the character is capable of.....

Offtopic but slightly switching gears:
Is ZeRo's losers run at EVO the best in Smash 4 history? I honestly think that's the best he's ever played.
I wonder how things would've gone if he got to practice with Scatt/Kame didn't deny him friendlies.

I would hope I know what the character is capable of considering I main him.

Point blank down tilt is unsafe on block. But let's assume you did it off a banana. Depending on the range you might not get close enough to do a point blank downtilt in time. In fact you often won't. But let's assume the above 2 criteria is also true for the sake of argument even though they clearly aren't always going to be.

Downtilt to Fmsash only works at specific percents and only if they do not DI away outside of a few exceptions. You'll notice when Ally gets hit by downtilt he saw coming, he just DIs away and Mario goes quite far away if you do this, Fsmash is unlikely to land especially if Diddy had rage. I've seen Zinoto not get up smashes because Ally DIed away after downtilt let alone Fsmash.

I'm going to assume you main Sheik. Downtilt to Fsmash with Diddy is like soft hit nair to tipperd Up Smash with Sheik. Can it technically work if several other factors align perfectly? Sure. But how often do you land soft hit nair to sweet spot Up Smash in a real match?

Imagine if people started claiming Sheik kills reliably at 90 thanks to it. It's something she can expect to close out every stock. Would that make any sense to you?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I find it interesting that more top players these days don't think Shulk is a free MU for their characters, kame thinks the megaman MU is even, which I agree with. Angbad thinks olimar Shulk is horrible for olimar, and the top marths think Shulk and marth is slightly in marths favor. Maybe the stigma of Shulk not going even/winning any high tier matchup my will end? Unlikely, but I can dream

 

[FeelMeUp]

those are not the same AT ALL.
the main time you reliably see nair to usmash is very rare cases. like fadeback nair to usmash after catching a ledge roll.
You can literally see any top Diddy player go for JCIT dtilt fsmash at least once a set.
Hell, I JUST watched Zinoto pull it on Anti at CEO and killing him at 105 after looking over some of the VODs again. The combo cannot be reliably SDI'd out of unless you're:
A: A floaty
B: Dealing with rage Diddy
C: At absurdly high %
D: Any combination of the above

 

[EternalFlare]

those are not the same AT ALL.
the main time you reliably see nair to usmash is very rare cases. like fadeback nair to usmash after catching a ledge roll.
You can literally see any top Diddy player go for JCIT dtilt fsmash at least once a set.
Hell, I JUST watched Zinoto pull it on Anti at CEO and killing him at 105 after looking over some of the VODs again. The combo cannot be reliably SDI'd out of unless you're:
A: A floaty
B: Dealing with rage Diddy
C: At absurdly high %
D: Any combination of the above

B and C can often be true. I'm glad you are admitting it relies on a number of factors now. Getting hit by a banana gives you plenty of time to react with DI/SDI away. I've seen Ally do this multiple times and avoid down tilt followups. So you don't have to be a super floaty to do it (I think Mario should be considered a semi-floaty at least). Either way, you can't ignore Mario's ability to avoid it with DI.

And I just saw Void kill Ranai with a soft nair tippered up Smash. I guess it's guaranteed and should happen all the time. Wonder why every Sheik doesn't do that and kill below 100. Oh wait, probably the same reason you don't see Diddy's killing consistently at 90.

Point being, we can both cherry pick situations to make characters look way stronger than they really are. The grass is always greener on the other side. Heck I also remember seeing Mario kill Megaman who's a heavyweight at only 100 which is lower than your example. Never mind Mario having max rage...

 

[FeelMeUp]

B and C can often be true. I'm glad you are admitting it relies on a number of factors now. Getting hit by a banana gives you plenty of time to react with DI/SDI away. I've seen Ally do this multiple times and avoid down tilt followups. So you don't have to be a super floaty to do it (I think Mario should be considered a semi-floaty at least). Either way, you can't ignore Mario's ability to avoid it with DI.

And I just saw Void kill Ranai with a soft nair tippered up Smash. I guess it's guaranteed and should happen all the time. Wonder why every Sheik doesn't do that and kill below 100. Oh wait, probably the same reason you don't see Diddy's killing consistently at 90.

Point being, we can both cherry pick situations to make characters look way stronger than they really are. Heck I also remember seeing Mario kill Megaman who's a heavyweight at only 100 which is lower than your example. Never mind Mario having max rage...

So a guaranteed setup with a massive % range that Diddy players have been using over a year now is situational?
Alright, I think we're done here. I'm not really interested in continuing anymore.

 

[L9999]

Overrated:
Underrated:

For some reason the average Smash player thinks Ryu has "untapped ridiculous potential" but I don't see it. Cloud has some stupid buttons but doesn't win much, counterplay develops fast. Ness is a disaster, no one cares about him anymore. Placing him in top 15 on personal tier lists is plain ignorance with much better characters around. That being said, I don't think Ness will drop like, to trash tier, he has a lot of stupid buttons and clutch factor with PKT and Back Throw.

Lucina may fall behind because she is inferior to Marth but she is a lot better than garbage tier where people place her just cause. She is begging for a dedicated pro player, not a pocket like Xaltis/Komorikiri. Pit is in a Killager situation, that he has one amazing player that wins stuff and shows the true power of the character but the rest of the playerbase is 2 levels below, but with Pit is worse because he is even more unpopular than Killager and Pit players that are not in Japan barely do anything.

Even for me, characters like Zelda and DDD have an excuse: FFAs. Roy? Can't even do that right. He's hopelessly outclassed in every way. Good mobility and power on a swordsman? Marth. Wanna "not care about spacing"? Any other swordsman. Wanna take forever to charge and unleash a super powerful move? Cloud. Takes 100 frames longer and is weaker but can be interrupted, so...

Roy's fundamental design of "swordsman with useless tippers" is just garbage. The good tippers he has now I'm chalking up to simply them not noticing. Zero thought went into him in Melee, and no thought went into him when they wanted to cash in on Melee nostalgia.

I'll give them credit that they exploited Roy fans really good. The no tipper design would work if the tips weren't as weak as sourspot lightning kicks.

 

[EternalFlare]

So a guaranteed setup with a massive % range that Diddy players have been using over a year now is situational?
Alright, I think we're done here. I'm not really interested in continuing anymore.

Sheik's soft nair to up Smash has been around for even longer. Does that mean it's not situational?

Here's two different Ally vs Zinoto sets I randomly found on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT7_sr1YyjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIxw1nK4Ud8

It didn't happen in either one across 5 games. Normally I'm against using such examples but you did claim a moment ago it always happens once per set. Care to explain?

Check out the 5:10 minute mark in the second link btw and then come back and say Fsmash is always possible regardless of DI with a straight face. Truth is Mario is way too floaty for it to be a reliable thing on him. You might have a point if it were heavyweights and/or fast fallers we were discussing.

That's the thing with discussing characters you don't play with rose coloured glasses. You notice all the amazing kills they got but ignore all the times where it didn't work and/or couldn't work. I am guilty of this as well, I think most players are.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I actually do play Diddy LMFAO.
He's my secondary. Don't assume things.

What are you trying to show me? I don't see anything at 5:10.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Also, maybe it's my bias towards this character speaking, but why is such an unpopular pick? She's a great character. Is it because she's DLC that came over a year after the game and also because she's a 6th FE character? Or is there something else?

In my honest opinion, Corrin use dropped off because after the new character hype because she's just mid tier.

Corrin certainly isn't bad. It's just that she isn't all that good.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mario will certainly outdamage Diddy when he gets a grab, but won't necessarily do so off of safe stray hits.

Mario jumps towards you. He will either dair or nair. Dair is the option that's extremely hard to defend against, but nair is simple. Banana OoS is f7 and bair OoS is f9. Both are fully capable of punishing crossups on shield(though fadeback reverse nair to jab is crazy hard to respond to).
and why are you assuming Mario has the lead?

ZeRo definitely hands out gimps to everyone. He's one of the most uncomfortable offstage of any top player, and this was true even during his winstreak. The guy's recovery options are always very telegraphed and he often panics to choose whatever will get him back quickest. If even I, a mid level player, can pick up on habits that can be exploited for stocks(i.e ZeRo always falling below the edge with an airdodge then rocket barreling up for a ledgesnap) I'm sure all of the top players know about and exploit them easily. Which is why he gets gimped the way he does in games where he loses neutral too often.

No it doesn't. What does Mario do if Diddy walks around/shields with banana in hand? Usmashes his shield and gets banana punished? Grabs him and gets.....hey, nothing guaranteed? Zinoto lost because he REFUSED


How does Gunner do against Rosa, Mario, and Sonic? I think these answers will help me paint a bigger picture of how the character functions.

but I.....literally just said I used Anti as well, lmao. Am I not supposed to use the 2 best reps of the character?
Am I supposed to ignore the games where Anti was forced off of Mario in the Diddy Mario MU after getting slapped around because of the exact points I just mentioned?
and if you didn't know, banana>dtilt>[insert smash attack] is guaranteed.
add fsmash and mario dies at 90

Gunner loses to Rosalina 40-60. It is considered Gunner's worst matchup because she can use Gravitational Pull to make it harder for Gunner to deal damage, and she can edgeguard Gunner pretty hard. On the other hand ground level fair can allow Gunner to have a slight advantage in the neutral for the reasons that I mentioned in my second to last post. Gunner can also juggle and edgeguard Rosalina pretty well in this matchup. I have a more detailed analysis of this matchup on the Rosalina matchup thread.

Mii Gunner also loses to Mario 40-60 because of Mario's strong combo game, good juggling, and good edgeguarding. Gunner on the other hand has the range to get the upper hand in the neutral (especially if the Gunner player can mix up his/her projectiles in order to keep Mario from reflecting them), and Gunner can edgeguard Mario pretty hard.

Mii Gunner either goes even with Sonic or loses slightly to him. Sonic's mobility and spindash forces Gunner to be pretty careful with his/her attacks, and Sonic gets good reward from a spindash. Gunner has a very slight edge in the neutral against Sonic because of Sonic's poor priority (This forces Sonic to approach with shield more often, and Gunner can take advantage of this with grabs), and Gunner juggles Sonic pretty hard. I am currently trying to see if Gunner's reflector can get Gunner out of Sonic's spindash combos.

These characters can hold their own in the neutral against Gunner because they have the tools to make neutral more of a guessing game for Gunner, but a good Gunner player should be able to win the neutral against these characters most of the time.

 

[Jjab430]

How are you gonna say that Mario loses to Sheik after ANTi 2-0'd and 3-0'd the two best Sheiks in the world at CEO? If anything, recent results suggest that that matchup is in Mario's favor.

Anyways,
Overrated:

Underrated:

 

[Nu~]

For all those saying that Lucas is underrated...why?

He has one of the most linear nuetral games in smash 4 and an advantage stage accessed primarily from his "meh" grab (with his main combo extender being easily sdi-able mind you)


Edit: Also, Bayonetta is probably better than ZSS at this point. All 3 of her game states are slightly better.

She also does ZSS's job more efficiently: a more effective offensive mixup character with high punishing ability.