Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Speaking of Diddy, the common thought here seems to be that he's the best character. However, when were the last times Diddy actually won a notable or somewhat notable tournament? Low Tier City 4 (ZeRo), and the Xanadu right before Apex (Nietono) (if you can call this one notable).We know he can be fairly common in top 8 as well, such as EVO (3rd ZeRo), Midwest Mayhem (5th Zinoto), WTFox 2 (3rd ZeRo, 7th Player-1), CEO (2nd Zinoto), Apex (3rd Nietono), Smash n' Splash 2 (2nd ZeRo, 4th Zinoto, 7th JJROCKETs). So there's evidence to support that the character is very good, one of the best. But #1? It's not seeming like it right now. Amazing theory that points to being #1 but just doesn't quite have the results to back it up. We've had a lot of Mario wins lately, Sheik is also very consistent, whenever Rosa shows up she tends to do well. Diddy's got a lot of competition to be #1 and it seems like it's just barely out of his grasp. So who is the best? I'm of the thinking that it's Sheik, but I can't say for certain.

 

[EternalFlare]

I believe this is guaranteed if Mario has enough rage due to increased hitstun. I believe the first 5 hits of the dair has set knockback so the opponent's damage won't affect air-dodging.

Mario's main weakness has always been said to be lack of early reliable kill confirms (back when other characters had these in spades). According to posts on Reddit and the video with enough rage (70 pecent) only frame 1 options can get out of it.

If this is all true then Mario has a reliable kill confirm at 60-80 on most of the cast off of a grab or downtilt. No other character with even close to Mario's mobility can boast this. Incredible.

I can see Mario being top 3 if this is legit.

But I wonder if you can just SDI out of the dair or something.

 

[Jexulus]

Speaking of Diddy, the common thought here seems to be that he's the best character. However, when were the last times Diddy actually won a notable or somewhat notable tournament? Low Tier City 4 (ZeRo), and the Xanadu right before Apex (Nietono) (if you can call this one notable).We know he can be fairly common in top 8 as well, such as EVO (3rd ZeRo), Midwest Mayhem (5th Zinoto), WTFox 2 (3rd ZeRo, 7th Player-1), CEO (2nd Zinoto), Apex (3rd Nietono), Smash n' Splash 2 (2nd ZeRo, 4th Zinoto, 7th JJROCKETs). So there's evidence to support that the character is very good, one of the best. But #1? It's not seeming like it right now. Amazing theory that points to being #1 but just doesn't quite have the results to back it up. We've had a lot of Mario wins lately, Sheik is also very consistent, whenever Rosa shows up she tends to do well. Diddy's got a lot of competition to be #1 and it seems like it's just barely out of his grasp. So who is the best? I'm of the thinking that it's Sheik, but I can't say for certain.

I love how this is a viable discussion.

I don't think the lull in 1st place results means he's suddenly not the best character in the game. It just means that people are getting better at fighting him and know how to avoid/counter banana set-ups.

There was something similar that happened in (Ultimate) Marvel vs. Capcom 3, specifically with Albert Wesker. Wesker was widely believed to be the best individual characters in the game (though character combinations like Wolverine/Akuma were considered stronger) because it was difficult to react properly to his tools. Even after Ultimate was released (but before Vergil's and Zero's historic rise to power), Wesker was so common and oversaturated that players en masse began to understand how to play around Wesker. Wesker himself didn't receive any crushing nerfs (his buffs and nerfs were actually on par with each other), but people understanding how to play around him dragged him down the tier list outside of the top 5.

As more and more players learn to play against Diddy, especially if Diddy becomes more and more common, knowledge about how to play against him is going to become more widespread, even down to the nuances. Will that drag him out of the top 5? That would depend on how other characters evolve over that time.

My answer to that is no: though it will continue to be disputed, Diddy has just enough that, provided we don't see any more patches, Diddy will always be in contention for the throne.

 

[LRodC]

Speaking of Diddy, the common thought here seems to be that he's the best character. However, when were the last times Diddy actually won a notable or somewhat notable tournament? Low Tier City 4 (ZeRo), and the Xanadu right before Apex (Nietono) (if you can call this one notable).We know he can be fairly common in top 8 as well, such as EVO (3rd ZeRo), Midwest Mayhem (5th Zinoto), WTFox 2 (3rd ZeRo, 7th Player-1), CEO (2nd Zinoto), Apex (3rd Nietono), Smash n' Splash 2 (2nd ZeRo, 4th Zinoto, 7th JJROCKETs). So there's evidence to support that the character is very good, one of the best. But #1? It's not seeming like it right now. Amazing theory that points to being #1 but just doesn't quite have the results to back it up. We've had a lot of Mario wins lately, Sheik is also very consistent, whenever Rosa shows up she tends to do well. Diddy's got a lot of competition to be #1 and it seems like it's just barely out of his grasp. So who is the best? I'm of the thinking that it's Sheik, but I can't say for certain.

Has Sheik won anything notable since she was nerfed?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Has Sheik won anything notable since she was nerfed?

If we go by winning entirely, Sheik and Diddy have very similar placings at most major tournaments.Your only options for winning consistently are Mario, Rosa, and Sonic, characters who I believe are also in contention with Sheik for the #1 spot. There's also small bits of Cloud wins. I'm of the thinking that Diddy is #2 or 3, and one or two of the aforementioned (sans Cloud) are above him. Diddy counterplay involves gimping him when you get the opportunity and using his banana against him, Sheik counterplay is kill her first before she can kill you so that she struggles to kill you.
Also remember that Sheik is the best in my opinion (because we're at a period in the metagame where there is no factual best right now), and that opinions are also subject to change. If we see more theory and results in favor of another character (Mario for example) then my opinion might change.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

So how stupid is it on a scale of 1-10 to put Cloud above Sonic on a tier list simply because I have fought both of them a lot and I simply can't agree that Sonic is more polarizing than Cloud? I don't mean by a lot, I mean they are in contention for like the 5th and 6th spot, right next to each other.

I know personal, anecdotal evidence is really pretty useless and unscientific, but I just can't say Sonic is harder to fight then Cloud.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Banana to usmash?

Fox with a banana peel in his hands has exactly zero mixup options in close range and for approaching which nullifies his biggest strength as a character entirely. The reason he's such a dangerous character isn't because he has one specifically powerful approach option that works in any given situation but because he has like a million of them - but they need to be mixed up. That's why an unpredictable player like Larry can just tear through opponents, because it's very hard to predict which option he's gonna pick and if you happen to predict the wrong one you'll eat a triple uair string for it in no time.

Now if you put a banana peel in Fox' hands the entire mixup game that makes the character such a threat is shut down. And the trade-off isn't even worth it - the strong hitbox of usmash doesn't last very long which makes the timing for banana to usmash unreliable. That's pretty unimpressive for a character who a.) already has perfectly functional setups into usmash and who b.) at top level gets the majority of kills through uair, not usmash. Fox loses a lot from holding a banana peel and gains very, very little in exchange. Seriously, the best thing Fox can do with a banana is trying to make it unattainable for Diddy Kong for as long as possible. That is something Fox is actually *really* good at.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Fox can't do **** with a banana peel in his hands.

if you've watched Larry play Zero's Diddy then you would how good Fox with a banana is. He puts on amazing shield pressure with it, sets up kills, and sets up combos which is even better because of how insane Fox's reward is

 

[FeelMeUp]

zdrop banana crossup into utilt/dair on shield is an insanely good option
The move almost always catches people trying to shieldgrab

 

[my_T]

people focus too much on the placing of a character and not enough on the characters bracket run. I think who they beat or lose to (player and character) are more important

 

[Ulevo]

I believe this is guaranteed if Mario has enough rage due to increased hitstun. I believe the first 5 hits of the dair has set knockback so the opponent's damage won't affect air-dodging.

Why the hell is no one talking about this.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Why the hell is no one talking about this.

Because I already knew about it. This is another reason why after EVO when everyone was trying to downplay the **** out of Mario to make themselves look good I hated this thread. Mario is nuts.

 

[Yoshister]

Why the hell is no one talking about this.

Because most people already know about it?

Also, breaking out of Dair is actually pretty easy if you have a move that's frame 3 or faster.

 

[Ethan7]

It's on reddit and the link has 150+ likes. But yeah, discussion here would be nice.

Yoshister watch the video.

 

[BananaBake]

Also, breaking out of Dair is actually pretty easy if you have a move that's frame 3 or faster.

Totally, way easy, all I need is a FRAME THREE move.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So how stupid is it on a scale of 1-10 to put Cloud above Sonic on a tier list simply because I have fought both of them a lot and I simply can't agree that Sonic is more polarizing than Cloud?

ZeRo and Dabuz both put Cloud as #2, and ANTi put Cloud as #1.

I think Cloud is easily the best character in the game from low to high skill levels. At top levels of play there are a few characters (mainly Diddy Kong and Sheik) that might be stronger, but for most of the player base, Cloud is #1. For what it's worth (probably not all too much), the Reddit June tier list put Cloud as #1 as well. As for your question, basically every tier list I've seen puts Cloud above Sonic. Sonic is very rarely (although occasionally) top 5.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Totally, way easy, all I need is a FRAME THREE move.

Most airdodges are frame 2 or 3 and they get you out just as efficiently. Also you're main's nair is frame 3 so I dunno what you're getting at.

 

[Yoshister]

Totally, way easy, all I need is a FRAME THREE move.

If you have the frame 3 move, you literally just need to mash the input for the move.

Even if you don't have a frame 3 move, you can airdodge.

There's a twelve frame gap between the fifth hit (Frame 13) and the last hit (Frame 25).

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Are we sure there's no way to DI or SDI reliably out of this setup?

 

[Krysco]

The video claims only frame 1 options can get you out, with the uploader stating in the comments that air dodges won't always work since hitstun increases with damage. That being said, if frame 3 or faster options are needed then the only characters without a means out of this are . Everyone else has at least a frame 3 air dodge except for who has Rest, who has Spinning Kong, who has both Shoryuken and Focus Attack and who has Bat Within.

 

[Yoshister]

The video claims only frame 1 options can get you out, with the uploader stating in the comments that air dodges won't always work since hitstun increases with damage.

As a note, the damage required for this is high enough to where it would not kill at absurdly early percent.

And rage is rage.

 

[Funen1]

The video doesn't perfectly explain how hitstun works with this move, but its conclusion is still generally correct. The multi-hits of Mario's D-air before the last hit deal weight-based knockback, which means that the opponent's percent has no bearing on whether they can airdodge out before the last hit. Rage actually is required to decrease the airdodge window, but it can decrease it enough to where even airdodges would be too slow.

There are some other questions I have about possible escapes, such as whether jumps can come out fast enough at points or how effective SDI can be. I can try to lab those a bit, but any info from others would be helpful too.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The video claims only frame 1 options can get you out, with the uploader stating in the comments that air dodges won't always work since hitstun increases with damage. That being said, if frame 3 or faster options are needed then the only characters without a means out of this are . Everyone else has at least a frame 3 air dodge except for who has Rest, who has both Shoryuken and Focus Attack and who has Bat Within.

Doesn't DK also have up b as a combo breaker? Frame 3 intangibility from what I have heard


EDIT: Yeah its true, I was able to check Kuro after i got home

I guess theres only 3 characters that can actually be hit by this reliably

 

[Krysco]

Doesn't DK also have up b as a combo breaker? Frame 3 intangibility from what I have heard

I hadn't even bothered to check DK's options. I knew his aerials were slow and didn't think any of his specials would have that property, but you are right.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVNJna7Qy0U
Just gonna leave this here. It works, but against most characters it requires a bit of edgeguarding after the footstool.

 

[EternalFlare]

Regarding the Mario kill confirm.

According to the Smash wiki, in Smash 4 you can get out of hitstun faster with an air dodge than an aerial:

In Super Smash Bros. 4, hitstun has a very slightly altered formula, which essentially reduces overall hitstun by one frame from Melee and Brawl. On top of this, the ability to act out of hitstun is still present, with characters generally being able to act out of hitstun after 40 frames with an air dodge, or 45 frames with an aerial; these numbers increase proportionally to the amount of knockback taken (beginning to increase after sustaining more than 69 frames of hitstun to cancel with an aerial or more than 74 frames of hitstun to cancel with an air dodge), and become irrelevant at extreme knockback values."[Quote/]

So why does it matter if a character has a frame 1 aerial or not for this setup? Wouldn't every character be able to break out with an air dodge regardless? Or is there something I'm missing?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVNJna7Qy0U
Just gonna leave this here. It works, but against most characters it requires a bit of edgeguarding after the footstool.

Thankfully for Pikachu, edgeguarding is one of his strong suits, however at what percent does it stop working? Seems like getting your opponent near the edge at a low enough percent could potentially be problematic, especially if word of this spreads quickly.

 

[TDK]

Thankfully for Pikachu, edgeguarding is one of his strong suits, however at what percent does it stop working? Seems like getting your opponent near the edge at a low enough percent could potentially be problematic, especially if word of this spreads quickly.

As another hitch, I can't consistently get the footstool. Might just be me being bad though.

 

[Funen1]

Regarding the Mario kill confirm.

According to the Smash wiki, in Smash 4 you can get out of hitstun faster with an air dodge than an aerial:



So why does it matter if a character has a frame 1 aerial or not for this setup? Wouldn't every character be able to break out with an air dodge regardless? Or is there something I'm missing?

First, that passage doesn't tell the whole story. Yes you can airdodge out of hitstun earlier than jumping or attacking, but that's only once you reach 40 hitstun frames and higher - all three actions come out at the same time before this, and they only start to diverge at 40. Second, the gap between the second-to-last and last hits of D-air is 12 frames (not counting hitlag), nowhere near 40 frames, so airdodging here makes no difference. Not to mention airdodges still usually take 2 to 3 frames to grant invincibility once they do come out.

 

[Nobie]

So I was watching the Be Smash grand finals featuring Sharpy the Charizard Main: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcUrN4TkY24

While Charizard's ability to edgeguard Cloud has been talked about, I think there are a couple of other noteworthy qualities that make the matchup look really close for Zard.

1) The ability to challenge Cloud's uair and dair.

While not always reliable, Charizard doesn't need Rock Smash to land. It helps when it works, of course, but at various times throughout the match, Charizard either trades or beats Cloud's infamous aerials with things like dair, Up B, bair, and more.

2) Charizard's tipper tail attacks outrange Cloud's sword!

A while back, there was some debate over whether Charizard's bair was a poor man's DK bair/Bowser bair/whatever. While on paper it looks worse than the other heavyweights', being slower to start AND weaker than Bowser's, one thing that it didn't take into account is that Zard's tail is really, really long. How many characters can say they can space out Cloud?

It's not even limited to bair either. Kills came from f-tilt and nair too.

What really keeps Cloud in the matchup though is that he covers the hell out of Charizard's ledge options. Once Digital Strider had Sharpy at the ledge, it was brutal seeing Charizard try to reset to neutral in any way, and often Charizard would take tons of damage if not just outright lose a stock.

By the way, if you want to see another Charizard in action, @!Blue! the Mewtwo player from NJ has been using Zard more as of late: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i5bAE1Ijbo

Another thing, unrelated: Jigglypuff's traction.

Jigglypuff, I noticed, has really high traction... second best in the game! Why in the world would such a light, floaty character have such a property? Then it hit me: Rest punishes.

If any character goes in too deep, or if they choose the wrong retaliation to Jigglypuff approaching, there's a decent chance Jigglypuff will just be able to hit them with the Frame 2 Rest (Frame 1 invincible). Pushing back Jigglypuff can be surprisingly difficult.

 

[Ffamran]

2) Charizard's tipper tail attacks outrange Cloud's sword!

A while back, there was some debate over whether Charizard's bair was a poor man's DK bair/Bowser bair/whatever. While on paper it looks worse than the other heavyweights', being slower to start AND weaker than Bowser's, one thing that it didn't take into account is that Zard's tail is really, really long. How many characters can say they can space out Cloud?

Another thing, unrelated: Jigglypuff's traction.

Jigglypuff, I noticed, has really high traction... second best in the game! Why in the world would such a light, floaty character have such a property? Then it hit me: Rest punishes.

If any character goes in too deep, or if they choose the wrong retaliation to Jigglypuff approaching, there's a decent chance Jigglypuff will just be able to hit them with the Frame 2 Rest (Frame 1 invincible). Pushing back Jigglypuff can be surprisingly difficult.

Question not to you, but were people really saying that about Charizard's Bair? Charizard's Bair has little in common with the other heavyweights. The closest it comes to is Triple D's in animation, but apparently not hitbox where Charizard's is a sweeping hitbox while Triple D's is a static one. If anything, Charizard's probably had more in common with Lucina and Marth's before Mewtwo came along...

Spoiler: Charizard's Bair compared with Triple D's

Spoiler: Charizard's pre-1.1.5 Bair

Spoiler: Triple D's Bair

Spoiler: Charizard's Bair compared with Lucina and Mewtwo's

Spoiler: Charizard's pre-1.1.5 Bair

Spoiler: Lucina's Bair

Spoiler: Mewtwo's Bair

For traction, Jigglypuff's was unchanged from Brawl -- no surprise there... --, but between Melee and Brawl, traction was much higher, but even then, Jigglypuff's was still high and technically still second-highest since first was tied with Link, Peach, Pichu, and Zelda while second was tied with Jiggles and Pikachu. Brawl dropped traction for most characters and Lucario ended up taking highest traction in Brawl and in Smash 4 as it was, unsurprisingly, unchanged. Link and Peach keep a high, or well, above-average traction in both Brawl and Smash 4, Pichu's gone, so we can't really say anything, however, Pikachu and Zelda's drops to being below-average in Brawl while being above-average because Mario's ends up going down between Brawl and Smash 4.

There are probably some trends and, "Oh yeah, that totally makes sense", like Little Mac having high traction. Why would that make sense? Boxers tend to wear very grippy shoes so they can use their footwork and to push off from the ground without fear of slipping. Kind of like basketball shoes which is why you hear the squeak sound whenever Little Mac stops while running. On the other hand, take Ike or Marth. Have you seen old boots, like medieval and Renaissance era ones? Their soles are just flat -- so is Luigi and Mario's, but we'll just say that's because of simple, cartoon-y art style for the Mario games. There's grip, but probably not like Little Mac's boxing shoes. Then comes a contradiction -- What is this? Ace Attorney? -- what about Link or Solid Snake? Link's rocking presumably medieval boots too and Snake's are modern military boots... Well... Video games!

For trends, I'm only seeing -- not about to go full on detail with traction -- the Star Fox characters have high traction. This is especially true in Melee where Falco and Fox rocked 0.08 traction, but still true in Brawl and Smash 4 despite Fox's drop to 0.06; Wolf's was 0.07, Falco's is and still is 0.065, and Fox's as I already said is 0.06. The Star Fox characters having high traction probably was done to work with their high dash -- not run -- speeds. All 3 have high dash speeds, Wolf's at 1.7, Falco at 1.9, and Fox at 2.4. Fast dash speeds and high traction gives them reliable short, burst movement, good dashes, especially in Fox's case. If you go back to Little Mac, tying his high traction with his high, second-highest dash speed of 2.05, makes even more sense when you consider boxers are capable of quickly shifting from place to place with their footwork.

Traction values from here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/traction.

 

[BSP]

Doesn't DK also have up b as a combo breaker? Frame 3 intangibility from what I have heard


EDIT: Yeah its true, I was able to check Kuro after i got home

I guess theres only 3 characters that can actually be hit by this reliably

It depends on Mario's rage. As others have said, the more rage he gets, the less fraudulent Dair is. (I think) each character has a % where once Mario hits it, Dair will true combo them.

From what I've tested so far, Peach is 53%, Cloud is 67%, and Fox is 114% or so. I don't know what determines this, but it's something worth labbing out as a Mario player.

Once Mario hits the character's critical % though, the only way they can escape that I know of is F1 invincibility or airdodge. I know little mac can always rising uppercut Mario for dair, even after Mario has enough rage to stop him from air dodging out. F3 is too slow once Mario gets angry enough.

In theory, this is true on a vast majority of the cast once Mario has enough rage.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So I was watching the Be Smash grand finals featuring Sharpy the Charizard Main: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcUrN4TkY24

While Charizard's ability to edgeguard Cloud has been talked about, I think there are a couple of other noteworthy qualities that make the matchup look really close for Zard.

1) The ability to challenge Cloud's uair and dair.

While not always reliable, Charizard doesn't need Rock Smash to land. It helps when it works, of course, but at various times throughout the match, Charizard either trades or beats Cloud's infamous aerials with things like dair, Up B, bair, and more.

2) Charizard's tipper tail attacks outrange Cloud's sword!

A while back, there was some debate over whether Charizard's bair was a poor man's DK bair/Bowser bair/whatever. While on paper it looks worse than the other heavyweights', being slower to start AND weaker than Bowser's, one thing that it didn't take into account is that Zard's tail is really, really long. How many characters can say they can space out Cloud?

It's not even limited to bair either. Kills came from f-tilt and nair too.

What really keeps Cloud in the matchup though is that he covers the hell out of Charizard's ledge options. Once Digital Strider had Sharpy at the ledge, it was brutal seeing Charizard try to reset to neutral in any way, and often Charizard would take tons of damage if not just outright lose a stock.

By the way, if you want to see another Charizard in action, @!Blue! the Mewtwo player from NJ has been using Zard more as of late: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i5bAE1Ijbo

Another thing, unrelated: Jigglypuff's traction.

Jigglypuff, I noticed, has really high traction... second best in the game! Why in the world would such a light, floaty character have such a property? Then it hit me: Rest punishes.

If any character goes in too deep, or if they choose the wrong retaliation to Jigglypuff approaching, there's a decent chance Jigglypuff will just be able to hit them with the Frame 2 Rest (Frame 1 invincible). Pushing back Jigglypuff can be surprisingly difficult.

I'm telling you guys...

Cloud is Charizard's easiest top tier matchup.

The other one is Sheik at this point.

They allow Charizard to use his strengths like the range, ability to trade hits and the ability to exploit recovery.


The hardest matchups are Zero Suit Samus and Rosalina because they prevent Charizard from doing those things.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Kamemushis megaman matchups chart

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I must say...

It's disappointing that people don't even consider Miis in their tierlist.

If they aren't banned. Don't ignore them.

 

[HoSmash4]

Mario's main weakness has always been said to be lack of early reliable kill confirms (back when other characters had these in spades). According to posts on Reddit and the video with enough rage (70 pecent) only frame 1 options can get out of it.

If this is all true then Mario has a reliable kill confirm at 60-80 on most of the cast off of a grab or downtilt. No other character with even close to Mario's mobility can boast this. Incredible.

I can see Mario being top 3 if this is legit.

But I wonder if you can just SDI out of the dair or something.

Downthrow fairs looking like a decent kill confirm

I must say...

It's disappointing that people don't even consider Miis in their tierlist.

If they aren't banned. Don't ignore them.

The truth is people dont know where the hell to put them because no one uses them.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I must say...

It's disappointing that people don't even consider Miis in their tierlist.

If they aren't banned. Don't ignore them.

Why bother ranking a character that barely anyone knows the full potential? It would only serve as a way of making the few Mii mains cringe as, say, Gunner, would probably sit with the bottom tiers Zelda Dorf & Puff despite a strong neutral game, but since most people don't even know that because the character is very unpopular. The rarity & underdevelopped nature of the character makes it so that ranking them is very tough & it would be wiser to simply not rank them at all. How do you build the theory/potential of a character if you don't even know anything other than it's a zoner that has a fairly reasonable neutral game?
Speaking of Gunner, i'd be interested to see how Rom vs Kirihara went at Umebura 24. Still very much impressed by this victory & wondering how it went in terms of the neutral.

 

[Jehtt]

There are some matchups Kameme put as "5:5" that surprise me. Ryu and Ness stick out. Both characters suffer from a similar problem against Mega Man of having a very hard time closing the gap and getting damage. This is on top of both characters getting exploited very hard off-stage while not being able to do the same to Mega Man (moreso for Ryu).
Villager surprises me also. Villager can have a miserable time against Mega Man because all of his projectiles, including slingshots, get stuffed by lemons. Obviously, this puts a massive dent in his gameplan so the matchup instead is more about Villager trying juggle and gimp Mega Man since he's quite good at both of those things.
There are also arguments to be made for Diddy, Sonic, Marth, and Bayonetta being in Mega Man's favor but putting them as even makes just as much sense.

 

[FullMoon]

I think this is the first time I see a notable Megaman main place Greninja as an even match-up instead of an advantage.

That said, Megaman losing to Palutena is... strange.

 

[Mister M]

I think this is the first time I see a notable Megaman main place Greninja as an even match-up instead of an advantage.

That said, Megaman losing to Palutena is... strange.

Well its hard to think of reliable counter play to reflect barrier. And that's just the first thing that pops into my mind.

As for Ness v Mega man. People tend to say is a rough match up for Ness. In my mind this idea hinges on pellet irritation. But maintaining space against mega man means you can react to metal blade and absorb everything quite.

Once mega man realises he has to approach in some way himself, I think the matchup becomes quite good for Ness.