Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shady Shaymin]

Sheik is the best character in the game. You'll all see.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

In my honest opinion, Corrin use dropped off because after the new character hype because she's just mid tier.

Corrin certainly isn't bad. It's just that she isn't all that good.

It also doesn't help that the character got a handful of nerfs straight off the bat after being released for such a short time,talk about bad luck, hopefully the character can become better overtime or with a stellar person repping the character ..

 

[Nu~]

In my honest opinion, Corrin use dropped off because after the new character hype because she's just mid tier.

Corrin certainly isn't bad. It's just that she isn't all that good.

Explain. I sort of agree, but I'm curious of why you came to that conclusion.

All of his/her buttons are great, but the awful mobility is so limiting. I'd call it Falco syndrome.

 

[TriTails]

Doesn't Lucas have like, footstool jab lock out of D-throw that leads into U-smash/regrabs?

And his grab is most likely the best out of tether grabs. And that tether grab grants him a ridiculous Z-air. Character has kill setup at high percents with Hoo Hah IIRC.

And his neutral is linear but effective IMO. I don't think characters with bad approach can do anything about Z-airs. As Luigi I'm just kinda forced into shields half of the time and when he grabs me I get rekt. Unlike Ness, his recovery doesn't punish you for hitting the opponent and having a tether helps immensely.

Actually quite surprised why the character isn't being discussed more. Jab locks that lead into U-smash and a legit Hoo Hah are scary. Ok all of those come from his grab but it's far better than what ZSS had and she flipped people with that grab. IIRC Lucas even has 0-deaths?

 

[FeelMeUp]

How are you gonna say that Mario loses to Sheik after ANTi 2-0'd and 3-0'd the two best Sheiks in the world at CEO? If anything, recent results suggest that that matchup is in Mario's favor.

Anyways,
Overrated:

Underrated:

"underrated: mewtwo. overrated: sheik"
lmfao
and for the hundredth time
i don't want to hear "mario doesn't lose to sheik because x beat y" when the players aren't playing the matchup properly.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah if we're talking about underrated characters I'd start with Mewtwo as well. He's like potential top 3 material while a lot of people still wonder if he's top 10 or something. The only reason people don't complain about the character is because they haven't realized yet how easy dtilt and fair are abusable in mid level play and how good a pocket character Mewtwo is. That's why virtually nobody uses him.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Explain. I sort of agree, but I'm curious of why you came to that conclusion.

All of his/her buttons are great, but the awful mobility is so limiting. I'd call it Falco syndrome.

Personally, I feel that Corrin doesn't have that "wow" factor that lets other characters sneak into top tiers.

Corrin has good stuff. Good buttons, nice range, etc. But nothing Corrin has seems to dictate how others need to play other than a few low tiers.

Corrin's not a leader of the crowd and doesn't change the metagame that much. They just do well in it.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think everyone knows he's top 5 material, though. I don't even see people questioning top 10 anymore. Which is why I said underrated for him is a hilarious notion.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You'd be surprised to see how many people flat-out don't know about how good Mewtwo is and still see him as some sort of novelty character who's carried by Abadango. He also appeared on nobody's top 5 list in this thread 'cept mine.

 

[FeelMeUp]

i would put him roughly equal to or very slightly lower than fox.
sometimes switch him in and out with Sonic.
My top 5 is usually:
()
Just grab 2 from the ones in the brackets. On some days I look at the matchups Cloud has with lesser characters and say "the dev team really ****ed up." Then I look at his top tier MUs and think it's not so awful.

 

[Nu~]

Doesn't Lucas have like, footstool jab lock out of D-throw that leads into U-smash/regrabs?

And his grab is most likely the best out of tether grabs. And that tether grab grants him a ridiculous Z-air. Character has kill setup at high percents with Hoo Hah IIRC.

And his neutral is linear but effective IMO. I don't think characters with bad approach can do anything about Z-airs. As Luigi I'm just kinda forced into shields half of the time and when he grabs me I get rekt. Unlike Ness, his recovery doesn't punish you for hitting the opponent and having a tether helps immensely.

Actually quite surprised why the character isn't being discussed more. Jab locks that lead into U-smash and a legit Hoo Hah are scary. Ok all of those come from his grab but it's far better than what ZSS had and she flipped people with that grab. IIRC Lucas even has 0-deaths?

None of his footstool combos are guaranteed because you have to read your opponent's DI. His nuetral is only effective against those with bad approaches like you said, and those with low mobility...but most characters in top/high tier have the mobility or other ways to deal with pk Fire/zair zoning. Of course luigi gets stuffed by it since he has awful air speed + meh ground speed.

Lucas ends up getting pushed to the ledge and suffocated against the likes of diddy, sheik, Mewtwo, and cloud.

His tether is the best one, but it isn't nearly great enough to make up for how much he relies on it to deal the bulk of his damage. It also contributes to his awful OoS game which makes it easy for him to be harassed in sheild.

None of his followups are nearly as great as what ZSS got from her pre patch down throw. Lucas has an unreliable Nair and escapable footstool combos
ZSS had better mixups and kill setups for days.

 

[Ffamran]

Also, since someone brought up Falco, I felt the need to ask what potential changes to his overall game plan could make him, well...more than average? As others have posted, he relies on a decent punish game in order to shine and while he can go on the offensive, his neutral game is mediocre and can lead to quite a number of problems (Of course he has his D-Throw Setups into F-Air, N-air, and decent Smash attacks), I'm curious to know how he has a hard time securing KOs at kill percents (This is something I've seen on other boards and forums a while ago).

Spoiler: Clarification of Falco's throw setups and F-throw wishes

Falco relies more on U-throw for setups than D-throw. D-throw's mostly low to mid percents while U-throw is pretty much all-range. Also, F-throw for low percent setups. They're the same throw setups Fox uses, except Falco's manages to be confirms at low percents for various reasons outside of Falco's laser adding hit stun if it connects or something like Falco's U-throw has lower recovery than Fox's which... is a good thing because if Fox's had Falco's recovery or even lower, U-throw to Uair would be a thing and that would be terrible for everyone except for Fox. The other thing is Falco's can KO and although unreliably, they do become stock caps for him unlike Fox who realistically cannot KO with his throws. That being said, one thing they share(d since Melee) which I wished was changed was their F-throw. The only differences between their F-throws is that Falco's has a 45 launch angle to Fox's 40 and 135 growth to Fox's 130. Everything else, the total 7% damage, the 35 base, and probably -- too lazy to check -- the hit frames and recovery frames are the same. Strangely enough despite Falco's having slightly higher knockback, it's apparently weaker than Fox's according to this kind of outdated thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/throw-ko-percents-1-0-8-dlc-characters-added.387043/. Probably because of its higher angle...

Falco being the arm guy to Fox's leg man, his should have been stronger. Not a 110% KO throw but something like a 170% KO throw or a pure damage throw like Ganondorf's 13% F-throw which for Falco, doing 9% would be fine. Fox's could stay the same or they could make it more of a setup throw. The dangers of that of course is that Fox could end up with a somewhat reliable F-throw to Up Smash setup or if they do something stupid, a F-throw to Uair, but that's unlikely. Something convoluted could happen like F-throw to fast fall Fair to Up Smash. F-throw to Bair would be fine.

Spoiler: Neutral wall

His neutral itself isn't good. It's based purely on movement which everyone can do even the slowest like Ganondorf or Robin, but they also back it up with other stuff like Ganondorf backs up his with the threat of a command grab and kind of a burst movement, good range on his moves, and him exuding a passive threat of, "If you **** up, you're going to die", or how Robin backs up her neutral with just classic zoning. Sort of since Robin is resource-based. Falco doesn't have that. He doesn't have good pressure tools; no jump-in aerials because of their hitboxes and how they function ad no close-range pressure ground normals which isn't uncommon in Smash 4. He doesn't have good mid- or long-ranged zoning tools as Blaster's just terrible; close-ranged pokes, however, are good through jab -- arguable since what happens after it isn't nice for him --, Ftilt, Dtilt, and Reflector. His neutral is very basic and barebones. Falco making it work can be considered a miracle, but not really. Look at his stats; Falco has the third fastest dash speed in the game, 1.9, beaten only by Little Mac (2.05) and Fox (2.4). For those short bursts of movement, Falco can move deceptively fast -- his dash speed might explain why his dash to Bair is like a sudden lunge --, but only for a short distance. Sustained movement, running, is where he falls since his run speed is a slow 1.472. Falco's ground movement is basically SFV Nash's; slow sustained movement -- walk for Nash and run for Falco --, but fast dashes for burst movement. As a Star Fox character, a spacie, Falco's a fast faller which works well for him since he can use empty hops and empty jumps without fear of him staying in the air too long. If Falco's empty hopping with his back turned towards you, please don't go up to him unless you want to eat a Bair.

Anyway, for why Falco has a hard time securing KOs... His main KO options are in order of strongest to weakest: Side Smash, Bair, Up Smash, sweet-spotted Dtilt, and Down Smash. Once you get into Utilt, that's around the 170% area. Side Smash being frame 17 is never going to be reliable even for punishes... Bair has short-range and low active frames for a kill aerial, Up Smash while fast, invincible, and has a lot of active frames does make Falco commit hard, sweet-spotted Dtilt has like no range since it's at the base of his tail, and Down Smash isn't going to KO until ~155% and has the highest recovery of his Smashes. One thing that all share is that none of them have any reliable confirms or even setups. Bair does, but it's only going to work if your opponent DI's in from a back hit of Uair. At mid- to mid-high percents it can work, back hit Uair to Bair can work, but it's going to be positional; Falco needs to be off-stage since it's not going to KO around 80% center-stage, but ~110%.

Did Falco have KO setups? Ignoring Melee where the almighty Shine existed, yeah, he did and one of them was through Nair. Fast fall Nair didn't really drag people down in Brawl because it didn't have auto-link angles, but it had 6 less landing frames clocking it at 9 frames of landing. One common stock cap setup was Nair to Utilt. Why that doesn't exist in Smash 4 despite Utilt not KO'ing until 170% and at the time, Up Smash wouldn't have KO'd until ~140% and Down Smash also doesn't KO until ~155%? I don't know. Even now, his Up Smash wouldn't KO until ~130% while other characters like Fox, Marth, Ryu, Sheik, and even Zelda have reliable setups that KO lower at the 100% and under 130% range. Apparently, the developers wanted it to be like other multi-hits that fully connected. Here's the problem: Falco already had that and it was through Fair which should have connected in Brawl, but it didn't while Fox's did and his did 27% total... Anyway, the decision to make Nair like other multi-hits caused an overlap with Fair.

The end thing you need to know is that Falco's reliant on KO'ing raw. He has to catch whatever openings he can. Does he need KO confirms or setups? Yes and no. Obviously, it would help, but he can manage without them like how Cloud? and Mario manage without reliable KO confirms, but are top tier. Question is are you asking for a top tier Falco who not only functions better, but also has KO confirms or a mid-tier Falco who functions better and just has a higher chance of at least making it into top 16 at a major? If the former, top tier, then yeah, KO confirms, but if not, then no.

Spoiler: Uair rant

And I'm saying this again just to drill this into people's heads: Falco's Uair did the same things it did before 1.0.8 and the body sour-spot even managed to be useful by being a weird confirm to Bair. Uair to Bair, Uair to Fair, Uair to Nair, U-throw to Uair, landing Uair to whatever. ALL capable with his old Uair. 1.0.8 did not magically make any of those possible. Maybe they're easier like U-throw to Uair because it's 3 frames faster, but they didn't spawn into existence because of 1.0.8. Really, Uair didn't need to have the stupid sour-spot that existed since Melee. That's all that really needed to be changed. Startup reduction was icing on the cake. What didn't need to change? Knockback. The knockback change made it so Falco's Uair that used to KO at ~165% on the ground to ~194% or if you happen to hit with the more vulnerable body hit, it could KO at ~175%. Thanks, Falco totally needed an Uair that was as weak as Mario and ZSS's while theirs have can confirm or setup into stuff for damage or kills, have lower landing lag, have better auto-cancel windows, and work with multi-juggling since theirs not only hit front-first so they don't have to always face backwards like Falco, but also because they have high mobility in general. 10% Uair that's as weak as a 7% and 6.5% Uair... Fantastic.

If they cut a chunk of endlag off of his laser (ground laser 59 --> 40, aerial laser 50 --> 39) he'd instantly shoot up some tiers.

He has a difficult time orienting the opponent into Hs danger zone. Lasers would help remedy that.

Then people would complain about how (more) annoying his lasers are and how his (already lowered fire rate from previous games) is too fast for them to do anything.

Anyway, did you just pick those numbers so that it would match Fox's recovery? Fox's would have much on Falco's than, but higher rate of fire, higher DPS, and longer range then. If that were to happen... I would take away Falco's ability to fire continuously. There's no real need for it in any kind of gameplay really. Just stalls and pisses off people. Fox's at least can tag people for KO steals, but Falco's would chance a gimp or giving other people a chance to recover by refreshing their recovery moves. If anything, Falco could only be able to fire twice or maybe thrice. Still the problem of it being a better Impact Blaster at that point...

Spoiler: Maybe I'm overthinking things

Doing any of that would make it a better zoning tool, but there's a problem, especially if you allow Falco to fire continuously. With it's low set knockback, it's not really going to be safe at close and maybe even mid-range depending on the character, so what happens? Long-range zoning. Remember Brawl Falco? Remember the fits people threw about Villager's (customs) camping? Remember Sheik's single Needles popping people up? Yeah, let's relive those again. There will be Falco players who would just keep you at that range whenever he can. Why approach? Why do anything? You do something. Oh wait, you can't. Have fun. Reducing is range is one thing... you'd need to mess with the knockback too since the current knockback was tuned for its current range. This is weird, but higher set knockback and if need be, reduced range. Would definitely be safe at mid-range (and long-range), but there's incentive of you can use it more flexibly. With removed continuous fire, Falco wouldn't be able to continuously push you back and even further if it had higher set knockback. That being said, none of this might matter if he couldn't fire continuously since you would always have breathing room to try and jump over instead of watching a stream of lasers and trying to hopscotch over them. At the same time, without chance to its knockback, Blaster might only be really good for long-ranged zoning which would only give Falco breathing room and not zoning which he could keep mid-range control and force you to do something. Better than nothing, though.

do you need me to do a complete break down of how lacking that Ryus neutral game was and how poor his overall decision making was?

The Falco was exquisite tho

Almost all Japanese Falco players I've seen are like this. They were and still probably are ahead in Falco's development, especially movement which was the first thing I noticed upon discovering them. Outside of Japan, Falco players who have movement like them outside of Japan are Cyro, StarPrime, and I think Bravo.

Their movement which is apparently a common thing with Japanese players... yeah... Should be standard by at least high-level players, but I'd expect mid-level players to be able to move comfortably and gracefully and not like crabs trying to drag boulders. Linear, stiff movement... What a waste. If these players can make Falco, a character who is considered to have terrible mobility, move like that. Imagine what they could do with characters like Fox, Marth, Sheik, and ZSS. Oh wait, there are players already doing that. I harp on movement a lot and this is why. It's a waste knowing that you can move so much more... freely and deceptively, but you're not. It's also not that "difficult". Just move and get used to it. It's not like figuring out exactly what Samus's Utilt can or cannot do. Basic movement, folks. Basic movement. And no, basic movement is not running around... That's just poor movement.

Anyway, if anyone wants more, Omnaoto is a regular on tamisuma.jp, formerly known as terminalkai, which regularly hosts online tournaments and crew battles. People like 9B, Earth, Ein, KEN, and Some show up. Some of them even participated in the Falco-only tournaments for some reason like Ein, a Shiek player, and Some, the Greninja player. Link to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/terminalkai/.

nah im too lazy right now lol

But the Falco had much stronger fundamentals. I mean the Ryu jumped at Falco....wtf why? Ryu has no reason to really ever leave the ground other then to re-adjust himself.

That reminds me, is it just me or do players have an obsession with jumping in with aerials? You have ground normals and there are characters with really good walks and good tilts... Empty jumps work too like Fox running, doing an empty hop, and then poking at you with Ftilt or something.

Also, this is why I really want Falco's Fair to lose its landing hit. Outside of the landing animation suggesting no hit should happen and it being heavily disjointed, it's a crutch since even if you know it's there, it can shield stab and give the Falco player a false sense of security that Fair approaches are safe and a-okay when they're not. Or in the case of not approaching, because of the landing hit being frame 1, you can cheese people by using Fair right next to the ground to interrupt people. It's really stupid and while helpful for Falco to get out of certain situations, I really don't think it should be there knowing people are dependent on it.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Not sure if anyone linked to this or not, but Larry had something to add to this whole over/underrated character conversation.

Rosalina is overrated

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) July 28, 2016

 

[NairWizard]

You'd be surprised to see how many people flat-out don't know about how good Mewtwo is and still see him as some sort of novelty character who's carried by Abadango. He also appeared on nobody's top 5 list in this thread 'cept mine.

Pretty sure @DanGR put Mewtwo in his top 5.

And he would be in my personal top 5 as well (or else I wouldn't play him).

 

[TheGoodGuava]

An honest to god top 5 is hard to decide

Personally I think the top 4 are and either or take no. 5

They're all gods in the neutral, have strong disadvantage states (Sheik is also rather godly in this area), and 5/6 of them have some of the best advantage states in the game (M2 and Fox in particular are rather destructive characters).

The only thing I really have trouble deciding is Rosa and Fox, Rosa is strong but with proper Luma counterplay shes much less of a threat. Fox is hard to deal with for most characters but has a rather exploitable recovery when hes actually forced offstage without a jump or a wall.

Honorable mentions:

They're all incredibly strong characters but are held back by a few things. For Pikachu and Mario its their lack of range, Sonic is lack of range and ****ty landing options, and Zero suit is her lack of rising aerials, a meh ground game, and poor results outside of Nario/Marss

 

[Mister M]

Small segway but I'm really curious. Bayonetta has been running on her new meta for a while now, and pink fresh and the other dude (sorry can't remember name), are showing that she still has the tools to win games.

I personally think she's On the back end of top 10 still, but I'm unsure of what direction she'll move in. She has a great neutral that doesn't even need to involve witch twist. Mix it in and you get solid damage combo's. Huge smash attacks to punish from generous distances. Witch time as a clutch factor. And aerials with the power and mix up potential to seal stocks without putting too much on the line.

And her disadvantage state is great. From the air, she can literally burst in 6 directions with hit boxes you don't really want to get involved in (except maybe dair).

Still, when discussing the best characters in the game, there isn't much discussion about her. Am I missing some crucial flaw that everyone knows about?

 

[Nah]

Lot of why Corrin's not a remotely common pick has to do with coming out more than a year into the game's life and not offering a whole lot over other swordies or Fire Emblem characters (other than that that amazing dash-to-shield). The people most likely to play her are people who like FE, but there's already been several of them out for a while, so why switch off your main for a character who basically does the same thing but offers no significant overall improvements? I don't think that Dragon Lunge, DFS, and Fsmash are really enough to make her stand out enough.

That and **** mobility is often a death sentence.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Overrated: (She's not good. She's going to fall)(slightly)
Underated: (slightly)(slightly)
Goes back on forth on any given day:
On the edge of being overrated/will most likely be overrated in the future:

 

[Piipp]

Overrated: (She's not good. She's going to fall)(slightly)
Underated: (slightly)(slightly)
Goes back on forth on any given day:
On the edge of being overrated/will most likely be overrated in the future:

Explanation on Lucas?

 

[Krysco]

I feel the whole 'came out after the game's release' thing could hamper any advancement the Miis could have too. Sure they came with the initial roster but with the way their legality has been handled, most people who would have chosen to main a custom Mii has likely moved on to another character and if at any point in the future, custom Miis become standard (custom moves, size changes or both) part of me feels it won't do too much. Plus, to my understanding, with their customizations, the only Mii that gets a huge rise in viability is the Brawler, going from tier to a terrifying menace that kills you incredibly early off of a grab. Pretty sure Gunner gets a decent boost too but not to the same degree as Brawler (granted, Gunner is often considered the best Mii with their current, common restrictions) aaaand no one seems to care for Sword with or without customization.

As for the whole overrated/underrated thing, it's entirely subjective and I don't fully see the point in it other than seeing where others see or don't see potential in characters.

I don't pay much attention to tournament matches (can't stand commentary) and I don't frequent Reddit. Socials I frequent have been quiet lately so the most I can say is what I tend to see the users of this thread over or underrate in my amateur opinion.
Overrate:
Underrate:

Spoiler

Zard and Palutena are lower end characters always talked up to be 'better than their fellow low tiers' but still have issues. Moreso Zard since Palutena at least has results. Marth and Megaman seem to ride result hype until it dies down. Seen both considered for top 10 when and maybe already make a top 8-10. Lucas and Ryu are mid to higher end characters talked up to be potentially better than they are with little evidence to show it. Ryu being touted to be this ungodly terror that will get up to top 5 or 3 or whatever arbitrary number while Lucas...is always said to eventually be better than Ness. Always Ness. I get that they're similar in some ways but what about better than Corrin, Falcon, Pika, Marth, Megaman, Ryu, ZSS?

As for underrated, Jr. was talked highly about until Tweek dropped him. May very well be low tier crap but if someone as skilled as Tweek or moreso were to pick up the character, I can imagine Jr. would fit right along with Zard and Palutena in the 'better than low tier' group. Mewtwo is partially main bias and my paranoia that having an infinite that works on a majority of the cast and is able to be started by 3 different moves will put him up with Diddy and Sheik in the future. Pika is just my stubborn belief that a character who's been at least decent in every previous Smash game, should be seeing better placement than 'just another mid tier'. Again, all amateur opinions~

 

[Zelder]

Sheik is the best character in the game. You'll all see.

Watching more and more tournament sets, I'm beginning to think that Anti might be correct about Sheik's tournament viability. He argues that a Sheik will probably never take another supermajor, and it's not because she's bad, he thinks she's quite good. The issue is that Sheik, at top level play, requires an insane level of effort to secure kills, and is pretty dang killable herself, which require superoptimal play at all times, and can produce a lot of fatigue in the players, even the best players. And I find that hard to argue against - it has to be stressful to regularly take opponents to 140%+, and be aware that you can get taken out at 80%.

I definitely don't disagree that Sheik may be the best character in the game - in "optimal" situations, I think she very well may be. However, I don't know if we'll ever see this borne out in tournament results.

 

[Pazzo.]

Lot of why Corrin's not a remotely common pick has to do with coming out more than a year into the game's life and not offering a whole lot over other swordies or Fire Emblem characters (other than that that amazing dash-to-shield). The people most likely to play her are people who like FE, but there's already been several of them out for a while, so why switch off your main for a character who basically does the same thing but offers no significant overall improvements? I don't think that Dragon Lunge, DFS, and Fsmash are really enough to make her stand out enough.

That and **** mobility is often a death sentence.

Jumping in to say that Dragon Lunge is anything but that.

Frame 10 aerial with good damage/knockback and a good angle for edge guarding?

Corrin may have average-bad mobility, but that's because his long range options have strength.

 

[TurboLink]

Sheik is the best character in the game. You'll all see.

I think I remember some people saying Sheik can't be the best because of her kill power making her inconsistent but answer me this, who has Sheik lost to consistently in terms of results? Not theory, results. She also beats Cloud which is pretty huge.

I still think Sheik is the best or will turn out to be considered the best character eventually.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think at the highest level, is still the best character in the game.

She has certain weaknesses that can make her mentally draining to play, however. Her damage per hit is incredibly low, making her lose trades often, and requiring her players to be on point with their combo games to keep up with their opponent's damage racking. All though she still has some good kill confirms, killing could still be problematic, forcing Sheik players to be really scrappy for kills, while also having to deal with range opponents.

I'd imagine playing Sheik solo through a national tournament would be mentally exhausting. Maybe they could use a secondary, not for match ups, but just for fun. Having a fun character that's a little easier on your mind seems more useful.

_________________________________________________
​

I feel that is slightly overrated.

It's mainly because Diddy Kong counter play for a lot of players is sooooo bad. So many don't understand the limitations of banana, how to use the banana against him, how to properly punish Monkey Flip Kicks, or how to edgeguard him properly. Diddy Kong will be one of the most played top tiers available. People need to get to the lab.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Explanation on Lucas?

Overrated more in talks around here rather than the tier list. People keep claiming he's better than Ness and what not. If he didn't have the SDI modifiers that might be the case. As it stands no. Particularly not with his results, or rather overall lack of them. A few players use him and do well yes. Join the giant pit of mid tier.

Ness ain't getting used much either, but he's still done more overall. Rather have his consistent tools than Lucas' may-or-may-not-work tools if you're going to force me to play a PK boy. He has a nice z-air though I'll happily give him that.

 

[TDK]

Overrated: (She's not good. She's going to fall)(slightly)
Underated: (slightly)(slightly)
Goes back on forth on any given day:
On the edge of being overrated/will most likely be overrated in the future:

Explanation for Peach?

 

[HoSmash4]

Diddy Kong has very good anti banana play in his kit.

Anyways:

Overrated:
Underrated:

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Watching more and more tournament sets, I'm beginning to think that Anti might be correct about Sheik's tournament viability. He argues that a Sheik will probably never take another supermajor, and it's not because she's bad, he thinks she's quite good. The issue is that Sheik, at top level play, requires an insane level of effort to secure kills, and is pretty dang killable herself, which require superoptimal play at all times, and can produce a lot of fatigue in the players, even the best players. And I find that hard to argue against - it has to be stressful to regularly take opponents to 140%+, and be aware that you can get taken out at 80%.

I definitely don't disagree that Sheik may be the best character in the game - in "optimal" situations, I think she very well may be. However, I don't know if we'll ever see this borne out in tournament results.

I know playing Sheik through a 100+ man tourney is ridiculous. That doesn't mean she can't be the best character in the game. It just means she requires a different type of mindset and amazing fundamentals to play at the top level. It's almost like what you put in is what you get out with her. Crazy, right?

Everything in the meta right now favors Sheik. Characters with bad recoveries like Diddy, Cloud, Rosalina and Fox are all on the rise and have been dominating tournaments, allowing Sheik to shine with her oppressive offstage tools. She has the best matchup spread in the entire game, decisively losing to no one in the cast and instead going even with pretty much every top tier or beating them 6:4, with her worst matchup possibly being 45:55. She has the best neutral in the game, in a game where the neutral is the most important game state. She has so many mixups and mindgames between all the **** she can do in the neutral that makes fighting her arguably exhausting as playing her.


But what about killing? Yes, it's true that she kills later than most top tiers, and has less easy-bake confirms. Even with this in mind, I still think she actually has pretty good killing potential relative the the whole cast. Look at characters who ACTUALLY can't kill for ****. would be just ecstatic to wake up and find themselves buffed with an ftilt to uair 50/50, an aerial projectile that can confirm a burst mobility kill move, a shield crossup into a smash attack...Sheik's killing is criminally underrated. It's not as good as her fellow top tiers but it's still better than what a lot of the cast has. If Sheik was actually really bad at killing, she would not be doing as well at the top level as she is right now.

 

[Pazzo.]

Diddy Kong has very good anti banana play in his kit.

Don't press down + B?

 

[PK Gaming]

Lot of why Corrin's not a remotely common pick has to do with coming out more than a year into the game's life and not offering a whole lot over other swordies or Fire Emblem characters (other than that that amazing dash-to-shield). The people most likely to play her are people who like FE, but there's already been several of them out for a while, so why switch off your main for a character who basically does the same thing but offers no significant overall improvements? I don't think that Dragon Lunge, DFS, and Fsmash are really enough to make her stand out enough.

That and **** mobility is often a death sentence.

Yeah, this is pretty accurate

That said, I actually do think Dragon Lunge is a really silly move... it's just most of top tier conveniently has a way to punish it (Diddy --> Banana, Fox --> Dash attack, Mewtwo --> Dash Attack/Grab, etc)

 

[Piipp]

Overrated more in talks around here rather than the tier list. People keep claiming he's better than Ness and what not. If he didn't have the SDI modifiers that might be the case. As it stands no. Particularly not with his results, or rather overall lack of them. A few players use him and do well yes. Join the giant pit of mid tier.

Ness ain't getting used much either, but he's still done more overall. Rather have his consistent tools than Lucas' may-or-may-not-work tools if you're going to force me to play a PK boy. He has a nice z-air though I'll happily give him that.

I don't feel like saying Lucas is better than Ness is grounds for saying that he's overrated. Granted, Ness started off strong when Sm4sh started but what does Ness even do anymore?

Fow's results have been lackluster as of late and I don't even know what the deal is with Shaky. I never even hear about them going to anything. And Nakat has been using Fox mostly last time I checked.

Lucas' results are getting a lot better and Ness' are dropping.

As for the SDI modifiers, you are right. DI'ing out of Lucas' Nair is super easy and can help you to escape combos. But that's when it comes down to reading SDI. And besides, you can SDI out of Ness' PK Fire pretty easily. Not as easy as Lucas' nair but still fairly easy.

One thing Lucas does have over Ness is a far better recover. Lucas doesn't ever really get edgeguarded hard because of grabbing/holding ledge with zair and the distance of his PK Thunder. Lucas also spaces a lot better than Ness, has a better neutral, better ground and air speed, and safer overall options.

If someone were saying that Lucas is better than someone like Pikachu, Villager, etc., then I'd agree with you.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It seems you can shield an attack then counterattack that same hitbox, given the hitbox is out long enough. Most effective with single-hit, long-duration hitboxes like Cloud's dair.

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(EDIT: I didn't. Link 1. Link 2.)

This sounds like the sort of thing that should have been common knowledge, yet I find myself surprised that it works at all. Am I just super late to the party here?

For reference, the following characters have counterattacks:
(EDIT: )

I'm not entirely sure this would be worth it for most of them. Bayonetta obviously because Witch Time is fundamentally different from other counters in terms of how it retaliates, and Corrin and Shulk have lots of power behind their counters so I'd hate to get smacked in the face with them. But the rest?

 

[FullMoon]

It would be situational at best with Greninja because of Substitute's start-up but if he does it on a sufficiently laggy move then that might be pretty devastating.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Explanation for Peach?

One of the worst offenders for "But she has so much potential!" and then people tend to place her higher on the tier list because of said potential.

Potential is meaningless until its tapped into. Peach ain't really being tapped into. Usual mid tier thing: one or two people do well with her.

---

That counter thing is... interesting. Suspect its only really useful for Corrin, Roy, Marth, and Lucina however. Even then its iffy.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

One of the worst offenders for "But she has so much potential!" and then people tend to place her higher on the tier list because of said potential.

Potential is meaningless until its tapped into. Peach ain't really being tapped into. Usual mid tier thing: one or two people do well with her.

---

That counter thing is... interesting. Suspect its only really useful for Corrin, Roy, Marth, and Lucina however. Even then its iffy.

What about Bayonetta? Witch Time is never fun to get hit by.

Also, would there be potential for option selects? Attempt to powershield > counter a move, but if you miss the powershield timing the lag on shield drop prevents you from buffering the counter and you can try a more traditional punish. Could that be a thing?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

How does powershielding lingering moves work? Does the hitbox become inactive after the powershield?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How does powershielding lingering moves work? Does the hitbox become inactive after the powershield?

When you shield an attack, the hitbox that you shielded becomes incapable of damaging your character. So for something like Cloud's dair, which is a single long-lasting hitbox, you can shield it then stand inside his sword with nothing happening.

Counterattacks appear to ignore this flag and still trigger on shielded hitboxes.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I don't see Shulk as overrated. Most people place him in low tier, and I think he will continue to stay that way. Low tier is a good placement for him

 

[Ethan7]

FeelMeUp where do you even rank Mario?

 

[Nu~]

Overrated:

Interesting. You rarely hear anyone say that Pit is anything lower than high tier nowadays.

Why do you believe they are overrated? Mediocre moves, lack of sheild safety, and the overall "vanilla" factor is why I would say they are nothing more than mid tier.