Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

Realistically, you practice the more meta relevant MUs more, both on purpose and as a result of playing other competitive players.

If you are the best at your particular low tier, you have a nice advantage that, in some ways, cannot be overcome. It can be hard to practice vs obscure characters, and if you are significantly better at X than anyone in someone's region, they won't have real practice for your character even if they tried.


I love the huge roster ^-^

 

[Ninety]

I think the fact that matchup inexperience is such a big deal in top-level Smash 4 might be due to the fact there's like 40 tournament viable characters.

 

[blackghost]

A game isn't the same as a BO5 set.


So Bayonetta is good at getting back to the stage versus Diddy. That's more than what a lot of characters can say.

bayo isnt good on the ledge at all. abk from the ledge isnt safe at all. the diddy player didnt punish it properly. if bayo does any special in the air when she lands she isnt safe. i really thought that was common knowledge by now.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Ok i know this shouldnt be counted for Das koopas results chart (only 50 entrants or so). But talent like darkwolf, holy, and venom are at this tournament https://www.twitch.tv/ssbmontreal

WHATS MORE IS THAT VENOM IS USING GANON in this tournament!

Darkwolf is playing venom soon!

Bracket: http://smashloft.challonge.com/sm4shmtl78 (venom is ganoncidemaster911 in this)



EDIT: and venom takes it 2-0 over Darkwolf, Darkwolf looked lost in that match, almost like he was caught off guard by Ganon. I think he respected ganons options a bit too much. Good stuff to venom.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I think the fact that matchup inexperience is such a big deal in top-level Smash 4 might be due to the fact there's like 40 tournament viable characters.

This statement seems paradoxical because if their are about 40 tournament viable characters, they would would be much more common, thus leading to better experience against them.

I don't know what you would classify as tournament viable, but their are definitely not even 30 characters that can win on national or international levels, which is pretty safe to say because only about 1/3 of the above number have gotten the results.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Someone mentioned the other day that probably wouldn't get as much mileage as they do if more people picked up and I kind of wanted to dive back into that conversation. We talked extensively about Kirby's drawbacks but we really didn't get into the upsides of these characters. one of my mains so I do see the potential of this.

Upsides to Villager as a Counterpick (from biggest relative advantage to least):

- can steal Diddy's banana and play keep away for an entire stock, can literally ball tap him out of his recovery, one of the few characters that actually benefits from going full aggro against him offstage (chasing and spamming nair is stupidly effective) , can kill Diddy absurdly early with rage, was one of the few characters that broke even with prepatch Diddy because of these traits

- one of the few characters that doesn't really care about his uairs because dair can beat it and has reliable air stalls, very easy to put a ton of edgeguarding pressure on him without even leaving the stage, fsmash can interrupt Fox Illusion and hit Fox even if Fox hits Villager, ftilt and dtilt can punish jab's finisher, utilt outprioritizes dair, rage against Fox means killing as early as 40-50% with good reads, dthrow combos work at higher percentages because Fox is a fast faller, easiest reflector for Villager to work around, getting ledgetrumped in this match up is pretty much certain death for Fox if the Villager has the slightest clue what they're doing.

- well timed Lloids can cause Sheik to blow herself up using bouncing fish, utilt beats fair and nair, Lloid and the tree stop needles, a rage filled Villager is something to be feared (again), Lloid and momentum canceling make bouncing fish/bair/throw set up kill attempts a lot harder to pull off

Downsides to Villager as a Counterpick (from least depressing to alcoholism inducing):

-one of the easiest characters to pick up, outrange and outprioritize most of Villager's attacks with ease both on the ground and in the air, one of the worst match ups to even attempt grabbing in, does so good against Villager onstage that he can simply just run off, charge limit, and wait for Villager to come back if Villager goes offstage for any reason, one of the few characters that can punish Villager's jab spam even if he lands them

Light in the Darkness- can gimp Cloud really early if you get him offstage without Limit, one of the few matchups up where the devastatingly embarrassing watering can gimp is actually relevant

- can force Villager to approach with ease, one of the easiest characters to pick up, spam cape and FLUDD to make most Villagers want to violently kill themselves by the match's end, the cape turns small mistakes into huge losses, the cape is the hardest reflector for Villager to punish and manipulate, close combat situations will see Mario winning out most of the time, usmash beats out... well... everything...

Light in the Darkness- Marios are a dime a dozen and everyone knows the basic strategies, going all or nothing in edgeguarding is a toss up between making the highlight reel or making yourself look like a total *** in this match up

- spam Gravity Pull and hide behind Luma so that Villager does 90% of the work of the match up, uair, utilt, or usmash if Villager is above you for any reason and you'll beat it out 9 times out of 10, run away and spam Gravity Pull if Luma dies until it comes back, camp until you hate yourself and everyone is justified in hating you

Light in the Darkness- hardly anyone plays her because of her learning curve, your opponent won't be allowed into Heaven because they play Rosalina anyways so just take comfort in that

 

[Mecakoto]

Soap-Box rant time:

I loved the shoryuken article posted earlier. It's really awesome. And it's why matchup inexperience is the excuse of a lazy, or inefficient player. That applies to ALL levels of play.

That said, direct matchup inexperience exists to a point. After a threshold, very little about all 50+ characters should surprise you anymore. Mario's up-smash kills early, Duck-Hunt's can is going to kill you at 140~ if you screw up the power shield, Shulk has his up-throw trap in jump mode, Zelda's Nair leads into a 50-50, Lucas's Nair is the most fun thing to SDI in this game... It's all just work and research. Staying up to date. You don't have to have direct experience with something to be able to play around it, and getting caught in traps you've never seen before shouldn't happen more then once or twice a game. It's all got to deal with general knowledge of the game and it's systems.

Sure, it's balanced enough that a few dozen characters can do really well, but... There are tons of similarities across the cast. Knowing a matchup in theory will carry you really, really far in practice because of how transferable the knowledge between each one is. And, by knowing it in theory I'm not talking about watching a few matches, seeing attributes, and calling it a day. I'm talking about knowing what a specific character's fastest options are, their setups, player tendencies with them, how they kill, when they kill, how they are killed, their strengths, vulnerabilities... Hours of research for each and every single one the game's characters.

It's a lot of work, right? Well, people doing well will have done it all (I mother ****ing hope, at least). The dedicated will do it and excel. They will find another, equally dedicated player, and they will play each other to get the match experience directly. That's what I've seen from top-level players on most of the games I follow.

So, it kills me to see people complain about inexperience killing their tournament run. That random-ass Doctor Mario destroyed it, then someone managed to bring you down with Ganon in losers. You could of gotten a friend and played a few games to at least get a sense going in.

"Inexperience" is another John. It's saying, "I didn't put in the work, so I'm going excuse my loss away." "Inexperience" alone is another word for, "Not my fault." It is, though. It is your fault. There is no excuse for it in the same way an SD is inexcusable. Your game was rusty in this area and you payed the price. You can say, "I was inexperienced! I'll get the experience and win next time." Well, I'll say back to you, "Why didn't you get the experience going in? You could of won this time instead."

 

[Jexulus]

This statement seems paradoxical because if their are about 40 tournament viable characters, they would would be much more common, thus leading to better experience against them.

I don't know what you would classify as tournament viable, but their are definitely not even 30 characters that can win on national or international levels, which is pretty safe to say because only about 1/3 of the above number have gotten the results.

Tournament viable does not equal, well, "equal." I agree with Ninety that around 40 characters are capable of winning tournaments, and while I agree that winning a major tournament with a character like Mega Man isn't as easy as someone like Sheik or Diddy, the fact of the matter is, the difference in tournament viability isn't nearly as large as between top and mid tiers in Melee.

The reason why we haven't seen many of these 40-ish characters win major tournaments is because most top players stick with the same characters that they have since the beginning. A vast majority of these characters would shoot up in usage if a top player picked them up and won a tournament while the Smash world is watching. The only proof we need to support this statement is Mewtwo's meteoric rise in popularity when Abagando won Pound. Not every character will be so lucky as to be lifted from obscurity so spectacularly due to the simple fact that not every player is going to suddenly become dissatisfied with their main and switch to another one. Instead, we see half of the top 32 seeded at EVO using some combination of Diddy, Sheik, and ZSS.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Adding to what Mecakoto said, "inexperience" is not an excuse in the age of the internet. Hop on YouTube or do a search on a Smash ladder and you can easily find people who are downright scary with anyone. I think losing to characters people normally don't take seriously is very important in any serious player's competitive development, especially if you main a top tier character. My first major lesson in this was back in Brawl when I openly disrespected Ike players until I finally met one who absolutely mopped the floor with me. This lesson may be harder to learn in this game because it doesn't have the comically bad characters that Melee and Brawl did but I think everyone should be curbstomped or put in a match so intense it almost makes you physically sick against players of a vast majority of the cast. Nothing quite gives you a reality check in Smash like getting almost JV3'd by a proclaimed bottom tier.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

OFFTOPIC i wonder what smash 4 would look like when it's really well-refined.

 

[MachoCheeze]

OFFTOPIC i wonder what smash 4 would look like when it's really well-refined.

Well we're still figuring that out! No ones gonna know unless we keep playing.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

For Smash 4, Anti and Zero have claimed it's a counter pick centric game. Unlike with Melee where you can optimize a character's options and whatnot, almost all Smash 4 characters have a way to counter them. I see the metagame evolving in such a manor that no 1 character will prevail amongst all others, especially after all these patches. The game is now fairly balanced. Anti won CEO not soloing Mario, as we saw him switch to Cloud to beat Zinoto. Zinoto has secondaries as to not play the Diddy ditto, etc. While there are players that are doing well with one character (See: Dabuz, Nairo), other players like Void and Zero are switching to counter picks. I just see the metagame evolving as a counter pick metagame. Thoughts?

 

[Amadeus9]

This statement seems paradoxical because if their are about 40 tournament viable characters, they would would be much more common, thus leading to better experience against them.

I don't know what you would classify as tournament viable, but their are definitely not even 30 characters that can win on national or international levels, which is pretty safe to say because only about 1/3 of the above number have gotten the results.

There are only so many top players, and only so much space in a top 16 at a tournament... Do the math

 

[verbatim]

I'd like to point out that even in the context of top level players, CPing characters isn't new and goes AT least as far back as Dabuz's 2015 APEX run/Abadango winning his last four winning sets at Evo 2015 w/ 3 different characters.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

RE: Dittos

Saw someone cite that you should have a counterpick for your dittos. While I agree that having more options is always a good thing, I think people should embrace dittos more. Approach them, deconstruct them, and adapt to them as if they were any other matchup.

Everyone hates fighting someone who has all the tools that they do. You can't really use your character's unique strengths as a crutch anymore because not only is your opponent fully knowledgable and aware of how those strengths work, but they themselves have access to them. Cloud dittos make limit camping an awkward affair, Rosaluma dittos are probably a mess.

With that said I don't think people make enough of an effort in their ditto strategy. There are probably some dittos that are more preferable to play than using your counterpick. What are some of the unique situations in the matchup that you can exploit? Diddy can Z drop a banana offstage and practically get a free gimp on an opposing low-recovering Diddy. That's something you can exploit in the Ditto. Sheik probably deals with needle camping better than any other character in this game, and could be a reason for not switching to whatever pocket character you use. Mario can break out of his own combos more easily than your pocket swordie.

In some cases it's better to switch playstyles instead of characters, but that holds true for all matchups, not just dittos.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I hate the Rosalina mirror because half the time our Lumas are the same color so it gets weird trying to figure out which one's mine whenever we're close to each other.

Regarding the Shoryuken article, I think they failed to mention the possibility of simply using the character you need to learn about. Not to a serious lab extent, but take them for a spin through whatever the local 1P mode is so you can get a general feel for their options, range, damage, and any special properties they have. I did this in Smash for the "beat Classic with all characters" challenges and if nothing else it forced me to acknowledge characters like Dr. Mario exist. (It also exposed me to a lot of the more questionable stages and I'd say I'm rather good at adapting to them as a result but that's a different subject.)

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Olimar dittos make me want to kill myself.

Now to add something of substance to my post so nobody gets angry with me. I think perhaps a lot of the reason people don't enjoy dittos is because nobody wants to be destroyed by their own character, though maybe that's just speculation on my part.

Would post EVO be a good time to start work on the next tier list? I'm not involved in the backroom or anything so I wouldn't be at all involved in that, but I'm wondering when these hundreds of pages of posts and all the data people like Koopa have been keeping track of will be put to use. I don't post very often anymore but I do read everything in this thread and it looks like people have a very hard time ordering anyone in the cast. There's a top 12 or so everyone can pretty much agree are top 12, but in no particular order past Diddy, Shiek, and Cloud at top 3 in some order. Then there's a gigantic blob of mid tiers that in my opinion is extremely fickle. Someone wins a tournament with Bowser or Link and suddenly people are claiming they were several tiers higher all along. Not saying that happened with those characters specifically, but just as an example. Then there are oddities like Duck Hunt who have barely anything to speak about in the West but in the East Duck Hunt is clearly much more established. I've pretty much given up on the idea that Miis will ever be able to use all their tools and whatever so I'm expecting them to pretty much continue to not count.

This is the first fighting game I have followed as closely as I am doing right now, I can't help but wonder, is this how it works for every game? I have no idea how that giant blob of mid tier characters could ever be sorted out in anything like an ordered tier list. As ridiculous as ESAM's tier list was, his idea of every character in a particular tier being pretty much equally viable with one another made a lot of sense to me. Is it possible that the next official tier list could be ordered that way as well?

One more thing going back to dittos. Its not exactly a ditto but Roy vs. Marth is one of the most fun matchups for me to play. It feels like an anime.

 

[verbatim]

RE: Dittos

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't do dittos with your secondaries, since you're intrinsicly at a disadvantage if you play someone who mains the character.

 

[Y2Kay]

People hate dittos because they fear being exposed as a worse player of the character in question.

People would rather have the ability to john about match ups.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Would post EVO be a good time to start work on the next tier list?

I think it would be, assuming the game isn't patched before then. There's a rumor (See Ally's twitter: https://twitter.com/AllyOrNotAlly/status/748190005152129024) that a patch is coming in July, around the 17th. This would be around 2 months since the last patch, which fits in the patch schedule (usually one patch every 2 months). If so, then I think there should be some time before the new tier list is released, at least one week.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

People hate dittos because they fear being exposed as a worse player of the character in question.

People would rather have the ability to john about match ups.

Ditto doesn't decide who's better with a character though. Just who's better at that particular MU.

If some guy has a winning record in every MU except the ditto, I ain't calling the guy who won the ditto better with the character.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I hate dittos because a lot of them are plain boring(Sheik), janky(Fox), or make you play a style that doesn't show who the better player of that character is(Diddy).

 

[blackghost]

lets not get too harsh on dittos. ditto ryu is like watching an entirely different game. ditto bayo is absolutely absurd and i love it (playing and watching it).
ditto marth always seems cool to me as well.
ditto sonic is cringe worthy tho.

 

[williamsga555]

Dedede dittos are hilarious. Such a dumb matchup for so many reasons.

Almost all of which are gordos, but there are others. We've both agreed not to do the ditto anymore because it's ridiculous, but we had to get the one set in first time we clashed in bracket.

 

[L9999]

Ness dittos are a lot of fun. It's a contest of who has the best mindgames and who can pull out a gravitational gimp. It also teaches me how annoyed people get when I am playing Ness. Dittos in general are a sea of mindgames and who can exploit the character's moveset best.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

doesn't show who the better player of that character is(Diddy).

Wtf does this mean

 

[FeelMeUp]

Wtf does this mean

In diddy dittos youre punished for pressing anything
They should optimally consist of walking around/holding shield with banana in hand and almost nothing else aside from the occasional monkey flip.
No shop fair
No OoS aerials
No strong traps
You just sit in shield and wait for the other person to do something.

 

[Nobie]

Mega Man dittos are the BESSST. Maybe not for the viewers but the lemon assault is so fun.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ditto doesn't decide who's better with a character though. Just who's better at that particular MU.

If some guy has a winning record in every MU except the ditto, I ain't calling the guy who won the ditto better with the character.

I am aware it's not how it works. But a lot of people have or had that mentality.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

In diddy dittos youre punished for pressing anything
They should optimally consist of walking around/holding shield with banana in hand and almost nothing else aside from the occasional monkey flip.
No shop fair
No OoS aerials
No strong traps
You just sit in shield and wait for the other person to do something.

Okay but how does having to play more patiently/more defensively mean that the less skilled Diddy player is somehow rewarded

 

[BunbUn129]

1.1.4 MK dittos were both hilarious and cancerous, and even post-1.1.5 they haven't changed that much.

Both players lack safe approaches, MK is efficient at punishing his own approaches with f smash, f tilt, and shield-grabs, dominates himself on the ledge, and offstage battles are long, drawn-out affairs that will either result in the recovering MK taking 6-7% or the edge-guarding MK getting Drill Rush stage-spiked.

What it devolves into is 2 masked berries repeatedly doing running kicks and swinging their tooth picks, if not running around and refusing to commit to anything because of how combo-prone MK is. Then one of them finally gets a DA/d throw -> tornado and then fishes for an up air chain, resulting in more uneventful neutral play. 1.1.4 MK had you on the edge of your seat because you knew that once one of them got hit he was ****ed. Now matches drag out a lot longer without reliable death combos and the late game involves f smash spam and back throws into oft-unsuccessful edge-guard attempts. Larry Lurr went for an MK ditto at the False Awakens pre-nerf and showed how stupid it was with one of the games going into a war of attrition as neither he nor Tyrant had the courage to approach.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Falcon dittos are easily the best, I can't believe it's even a question.

Jokes aside, dittos create an interesting dynamic as they equally test both players' knowledge of a character. On one hand, it tests who is better at utilizing a character's strengths- who's better at "playing" the character? Yet on the other hand, it simultaneously assesses the players on who is better at using counterplay against the character. Simply put: who's better at "playing against" the character?

People tend to forget that character knowledge goes both ways: how to use a character, and how to counter the character. The ditto illustrates just that: who's better at utilizing a characters assets while defending oneself from the same toolset. So no, being the consistent victor of a ditto doesn't necessarily mean that you're the better user of said character; rather it demonstrates that the victor may have more overall character knowledge, stronger fundamentals, or some combination thereof.

 

[Joey T.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U-iW7nUV_o

The best Sonic ditto we will ever have the luck to see.

Seriously, it's so ridiculous that it's actually fun

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Speaking of MK how do you guys feel about his placement on the tier list?

His neutral seems very lacking to me with no auto-cancel aerials or a solid projectile to make up for it. Dash attack, Dash grab and roll behind seem to be his only options to get in and they are very punishable. Downtilt doesn't seem to have enough range to be a solid approach/poking tool.

So it seems MK has to constantly play unsafe 50/50s in neutral and hope he outpunishes you once he gets in. But if the opponent chooses to play very defensive and just wait what can MK really do?

To see an example of this happening for instance, go watch MK Leo vs Ally at GOML. Ally just sort of chilled back and MK Leo who is considered the best MK by far kind of seemed lost and quickly switched off the character.

MK seems to be a good counterpick character but as a solo viable main against all kinds of playstyles...idk.

Falcon dittos are easily the best, I can't believe it's even a question.

Jokes aside, dittos create an interesting dynamic as they equally test both players' knowledge of a character. On one hand, it tests who is better at utilizing a character's strengths- who's better at "playing" the character? Yet on the other hand, it simultaneously assesses the players on who is better at using counterplay against the character. Simply put: who's better at "playing against" the character?

People tend to forget that character knowledge goes both ways: how to use a character, and how to counter the character. The ditto illustrates just that: who's better at utilizing a characters assets while defending oneself from the same toolset. So no, being the consistent victor of a ditto doesn't necessarily mean that you're the better user of said character; rather it demonstrates that the victor may have more overall character knowledge, stronger fundamentals, or some combination thereof.

I heavily disagree. It really just shows only who's better in the mirror.

Because let's say a character has 20 strong tools. To be effective at the mirror, you only need to be good at 3 of them. But you need all 20 to be effective against the rest of the cast. Especially in a game with this many viable characters, being great at ONE matchup proves very little.

So the mirror ultimately doesn't mean much.

Zenyou beat Ally at CEO, is he the better Mario? If he has overall more character knowledge and/or stronger fundamentals as you said, why isn't he using this to beat the top players Ally has?

 

[adom4]

Lemme tell you about Ganon dittos:

Spoiler

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Dang I'm late

Onto something of more substance, I've been thinking about this particular subject since the beginning of April, and that is where do we draw the kind between artistic expression and optimization? I've heard the "melee allows me to express myself," but I've also heard of things like M2K and armada going for optimal moves all the time, so therefore, if there's a best option in situations, then why use worse option? Same with smash 4, we strive for optimization of punish games, edgeguarding, juggling, option coverage, etc... But then where's the artistic expression? In the midst of all these calls for knowing using the best options, where is the space for subjective play?

Discuss.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Okay but how does having to play more patiently/more defensively mean that the less skilled Diddy player is somehow rewarded

I never said that the less skilled Diddy is rewarded.
I said that it isn't at all indicative of which player is better at utilizing the character's tools, as you only really do one thing the entire game.

 

[Megamang]

https://twitter.com/MVG_ScAtt/status/735264347224743936

 

[Yikarur]

Mii Brawler mirror matches are the most fun in this game but sadly you won't see them very often..

If you play a very weird character then mirror matches rarely measure skill directly but I think the less orthodox a character is the closest you come to "the better player wins the mirror match"

 

[BunbUn129]

Speaking of MK how do you guys feel about his placement on the tier list?

His neutral seems very lacking to me with no auto-cancel aerials or a solid projectile to make up for it. Dash attack, Dash grab and roll behind seem to be his only options to get in and they are very punishable. Downtilt doesn't seem to have enough range to be a solid approach/poking tool.

So it seems MK has to constantly play unsafe 50/50s in neutral and hope he outpunishes you once he gets in. But if the opponent chooses to play very defensive and just wait what can MK really do?

To see an example of this happening for instance, go watch MK Leo vs Ally at GOML. Ally just sort of chilled back and MK Leo who is considered the best MK by far kind of seemed lost and quickly switched off the character.

MK seems to be a good counterpick character but as a solo viable main against all kinds of playstyles...idk.

MK's dair and up air auto-cancel in a short-hop. However up air can't hit grounded opponents aside from larger characters, meaning SH up air's effectiveness is MU dependent, being useful against characters who rely on SH's like ZSS, and even then MK needs a read because if they don't SH they can punish him.

His neutral isn't very lacking. His mobility is good on the ground, with fast dash and walk speeds, and a really good perfect pivot, though his 13-frame dash-to-shield is mediocre and his aerial mobility is average at best. D tilt is a decent poke that's safe on block at max range. F smash is +1 on shield. And he has very good mid-range options because his dash attack and dash grab are effective whiff-punish tools (even with his reduced reward).

MK having a "lacking" neutral is a bad meme that should've died a long time ago. There's an awful tendency to call a character's neutral lacking when they can't dominate other characters using the same 2 moves over and over again. Just because his neutral isn't Sheik/Diddy-tier doesn't automatically make it lacking.

Keep in mind that Mexico doesn't have a Mario player of Ally's calibre--at least not one that Leo has played. It's probably more to do with Leo not playing the MU properly than MK's problems. I'll have to watch that set again to see. (Then again you could say the same or Ally I think, eh).

I agree he isn't solo-viable. Every time I look at a top 8/16/32 from Das Koopa or whoever I always take note of the frequent lack of solo MK's. If Rosalina gets nerfed in the future that's bad news for MK, weird as that may sound lol.