Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Dream Cancel]

Raptor vs. The Wall - Best dodgeball match ever feat. Yoshi ditto

Eggs and SHAD Nairs for days.

 

[Ulevo]

I do not understand how characters with match ups no worse than 4:6 are not solo viable in a tournament.

 

[MistressRemilia]

So, it seems everyone is sharing their thoughts on Dittos of their main or some other character.
Doc dittos... They're boring, really boring. It's a messy battle made of trades, and respect of each other's options. Only fun thing to do is attempting to edgeguard, lots of options to choose from, usually satisfying.

 

[TurboLink]

Link dittos are like Rock-paper-scissors. Really fun when you find a Link player close to your level.

 

[outfoxd]

Duck Hunt dittos are the funnest crap in the world. It's chess with gunfire and explosions.

 

[-Tornado-]

Ryu dittos are good until my opponent and I get to 80%
Then I inevitably TSRK on Shield

 

[Ethan7]

Seems like this thread transformed into a ditto discussion thread.

 

[-Tornado-]

Seems like this thread transformed into a ditto discussion thread.

Relavent.

 

[C0rvus]

6IV Dittos are clearly the best, quite literally the closest to perfection you can get.

Anywho, MK has quite a stack of -1 matchups so playing him in bracket can be a pain, mentally. His players are working on improving his reward, which is what he needs to stay relevant I feel. Low damage per hit and somewhat linear neutral can be hard to work with in a game that is unkind to characters of his weight and fall speed, but he's very much viable. Atm Meta Knight's biggest struggle is with his dwindling playerbase, and the amount of negativity surrounding him. Hopefully Ito goes to EVO.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike dittos are.... nightmareish

You know which character is the best in the game at gimping Ike? Ike

Aether? Let me see, do you stop you with Fair, Dair, Ftilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, Dtilt, Counter, or Eruption?

Quickdraw? See most of the above list.

And then there's the "oh crap we're both off stage and trying to recover so we're doing this fake ladder climb trade of Aethers that's most likely going to get us both killed." dance.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

From my experience, Cloud dittos are Limit Cloud dittos. I'll be charging my limit at the beginning of a match and the other cloud will charge and then it just becomes who gets the Limit Cross Slash / Down B read first, then that gives you another opportunity to charge.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ummmm guys.

I'm pretty sure the 7 Wonders of the World goes something like . . .

1. Great Pyramid of Giza
2. Hanging Gardens of Bablyon
3. Statue of Zeus at Olympia
4. Temple of Artemis at Ephesus
5. Mausoleum at Halicarnassus
6. Colossus of Rhodes
7. dittos

 

[I speak Spanish too]

There are only so many top players, and only so much space in a top 16 at a tournament... Do the math

If you are trying to use the argument that the top player to top 16 ratio makes it mathematically improbable that enough characters can place high enough to be deemed viable enough would make you wrong; they are just not good enough. The reality is that a majority of the cast will never place highly in large scale tournaments, and this pattern rings true for not only smash, but fighting games as a whole. Let's look at some examples of some of the most popular fighting games.

Super Smash Bros. Melee
26 characters
Universally accepted that about 8 can actually win a big event

Marvel vs Capcom 3
48 characters
About 14 characters in teams containing among the 14 can win a big event

Ultra Street Fighter IV
44 characters
About 13 characters argued to win a big event

Killer Instinct 2013
25 characters
About 12 characters argued to win a big event


The list goes on and on, so your argument is flawed. This even assumes that Smash will grow even bigger than it already is, and melee and smash 4 are still breaking tournament records in entry levels.

Tournament viable does not equal, well, "equal." I agree with @Ninety that around 40 characters are capable of winning tournaments, and while I agree that winning a major tournament with a character like Mega Man isn't as easy as someone like Sheik or Diddy, the fact of the matter is, the difference in tournament viability isn't nearly as large as between top and mid tiers in Melee.

The reason why we haven't seen many of these 40-ish characters win major tournaments is because most top players stick with the same characters that they have since the beginning. A vast majority of these characters would shoot up in usage if a top player picked them up and won a tournament while the Smash world is watching. The only proof we need to support this statement is Mewtwo's meteoric rise in popularity when Abagando won Pound. Not every character will be so lucky as to be lifted from obscurity so spectacularly due to the simple fact that not every player is going to suddenly become dissatisfied with their main and switch to another one. Instead, we see half of the top 32 seeded at EVO using some combination of Diddy, Sheik, and ZSS.

Actually, most top players play a variety of characters at the beginning and choose the ones that they are winning with. ZeRo swiftly changed mains to Diddy Kong, and even added Sheik later on. Ally originally wanted to play Shulk, both chose Mario. Nairo even tried pit, zss, robin, and little mac at the same tournament once, and is considered a zss main, MVD played Mac and Duck Hunt at Apex 2015, now is playing solo diddy. Tweek played bowser jr and wario, dropped him for cloud, and now is playing bowser jr and wario as secondaries. M2k and ANti dabbled and play with a bunch of characters...., Abadango played primarily pac-man now plays primarily Mewtwo. Sure their is void, larry, dabuz, esam, but at one point they also all relied on a different character to help them win a big tournament. So, most likely if I randomly picked a top player, they probably changed mains or played other characters at one point in time.

It's easy to say that Mewtwo's rise has nothing to do with luck(aside from patches), and that his relevance won't ring true for the majority of the cast and the trend amoung games show this.

 

[PK Gaming]

I do not understand how characters with match ups no worse than 4:6 are not solo viable in a tournament.

I'm not exactly informed on the subject, but if I had to take a guess, maybe it's because it's not good enough? It's not good enough for a character to have 4:6s or a bunch of 45:55's. A solo viable character should ideally have an incredibly solid match up spread or some sort of important niche to go the distance in the tournament.

With that said, solo viability is slightly overrated imo. Characters who need secondaries to cover certain matchups are still perfectly viable and threats to watch out for.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo dittos tend to shift between airdodge dances looking for shadow claws and mexican standoffs with charged shadow balls.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Why are people so fixated on characters being solo viable? It's been shown on many occasions that it's a good idea to have a secondary or to dual main characters.
Most Melee players don't even limit themselves to just one character, and they only really need to know MUs for only about 13 characters, with more emphasis on the top 8 of the game. We have 58 characters to know about. Why would you ever try to use only one character in this game when every character has at least 1 or 2 bad match ups, if not more.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Why would you even want to main just one character? That just gets boring, especially when this game has so many fun ones to pick from.

 

[Funen1]

Why would you even want to main just one character? That just gets boring, especially when this game has so many fun ones to pick from.

Totally subjective. Some people out there may like a character so much they only play them and feel no urge to try others.

 

[Fenny]

We talking dittos?

Bayo dittos terrify me for the most part. Using Bullet Arts as Bayo in a ditto is borderline suicide at kill percents, because for whatever damn reason a Bayo can Witch Time the invisible bullets and slow down the opposing Bayo from literally anywhere. The first time I was WTimed in the middle of an extended Nair despite being halfway across FD from them was the most baffling experience ever.

 

[ARGHETH]

We talking dittos?

Bayo dittos terrify me for the most part. Using Bullet Arts as Bayo in a ditto is borderline suicide at kill percents, because for whatever damn reason a Bayo can Witch Time the invisible bullets and slow down the opposing Bayo from literally anywhere. The first time I was WTimed in the middle of an extended Nair despite being halfway across FD from them was the most baffling experience ever.

Yeah, Bullet Arts don't count as projectiles, but rather as a (very long) disjoint without knockback. They can be countered, too.

 

[sups48]

MVG Scatt will not be going to EVO this year because the rule set bands Wii Remote&Nunchuck he tweeted out earlier today. I hope they can change the rule set or something I've been waiting all year for this.

 

[KenMeister]

Kirby dittos are pretty much the epitome of boring.
It's just alot of waiting in neutral until another player messes up while poking at each other with ftilts and walking around hoping to not get baited by something since like most characters he's up against, Kirby can't even approach himself. lol

 

[|RK|]

Kirby dittos are pretty much the epitome of boring.
It's just alot of waiting in neutral until another play messes up while poking at each other with ftilts and walking around hoping to not get baited by something since like most characters he's up against, Kirby can't even approach himself. lol

Kirby is good at punishing his own approaches, lol

 

[TDK]

Why would you even want to main just one character? That just gets boring, especially when this game has so many fun ones to pick from.

I'd like to solo Puff, but she's so volatile you need a boatload of secondaries.

 

[Wintermelon43]

MVG Scatt will not be going to EVO this year because the rule set bands Wii Remote&Nunchuck he tweeted out earlier today. I hope they can change the rule set or something I've been waiting all year for this.

What the heck is the reasoning for that?

Like I understand when people ban gamepads due to only one being allowed and pro controllers being banned due to the weird poblem where they automatictially turn on (Alhough I disagree with either being banned).

But..... what the heck is the reasoning for wii remotes being banned? That's a new one

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What the heck is the reasoning for that?

Like I understand when people ban gamepads due to only one being allowed and pro controllers being banned due to the weird poblem where they automatictially turn on (Alhough I disagree with either being banned).

But..... what the heck is the reasoning for wii remotes being banned? That's a new one

Limited number of signal options within the wireless remotes. At tournaments as large as EVO is pretty possible to end up messing up another TV set due to there being more sets than signal options.

Same reason why wireless controllers in general are banned at most supermajors.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If you are trying to use the argument that the top player to top 16 ratio makes it mathematically improbable that enough characters can place high enough to be deemed viable enough would make you wrong; they are just not good enough. The reality is that a majority of the cast will never place highly in large scale tournaments, and this pattern rings true for not only smash, but fighting games as a whole. Let's look at some examples of some of the most popular fighting games.

Super Smash Bros. Melee
26 characters
Universally accepted that about 8 can actually win a big event

Marvel vs Capcom 3
48 characters
About 14 characters in teams containing among the 14 can win a big event

Ultra Street Fighter IV
44 characters
About 13 characters argued to win a big event

Killer Instinct 2013
25 characters
About 12 characters argued to win a big event


The list goes on and on, so your argument is flawed. This even assumes that Smash will grow even bigger than it already is, and melee and smash 4 are still breaking tournament records in entry levels.

Interestingly, that works out to roughly 30% of the cast in Melee, MvC, and Street Fighter. Killer Instinct is the odd one out here with nearly 50%. I doubt it's significant, but it's an odd coincidence.

 

[Nobie]

Isn't Kane Blueriver arguably the best Marvel player right now, and he uses a team that's not traditionally considered strong (until he started using it)?

Also, 5 points to anyone who knows what "Kane Blueriver" is a reference to.

 

[ARGHETH]

Limited number of signal options within the wireless remotes. At tournaments as large as EVO is pretty possible to end up messing up another TV set due to there being more sets than signal options.

Same reason why wireless controllers in general are banned at most supermajors.

Apparently, the Dual Shock 4 (PS4 wireless controller) is allowed at EVO, and it's the player's responsibility to check that the controller's no longer connected after the set or else they'll be disqualified.

Also, 5 points to anyone who knows what "Kane Blueriver" is a reference to.

A character from an anime called Lost Universe?

 

[Jexulus]

Apparently, the Dual Shock 4 (PS4 wireless controller) is allowed at EVO, and it's the player's responsibility to check that the controller's no longer connected after the set or else they'll be disqualified.

I don't know much about Dualshock 4, but I can imagine the only reason why an exception was made is because of the way the Dualshock was designed to connect to and disconnect from desired set-ups without much hassle.

All Nintendo controllers have no such design built in to control where and how they connect. The choice was between efficiency and accommodation of controllers that not a lot of players use. Not an easy call to make, but one I believe was made correctly.

And I say that as a member of the Wiimote-Nunchuk master race. I WILL join Scatt in the heavans carried by his Uair and smite you wired plebs from above. I SWEAR IT!

 

[ARGHETH]

I don't know much about Dualshock 4, but I can imagine the only reason why an exception was made is because of the way the Dualshock was designed to connect to and disconnect from desired set-ups without much hassle.

All Nintendo controllers have no such design built in to control where and how they connect. The choice was between efficiency and accommodation of controllers that not a lot of players use. Not an easy call to make, but one I believe was made correctly.

Can't you just disconnect by taking out the batteries?

 

[Y2Kay]

Dont even bother bring batteries if u use pro controller. Just plug ur controller into the wii u with the cable to avoid interference.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Can't you just disconnect by taking out the batteries?

I don't know if that properly disconnects on the Wii U side without having to like back out of the menu and all of that. I know at one local I went to somebody was using a wireless controller and every single time it was a hassle to disconnect.

Basically: blame Nintendo, learn2CGcontroller

 

[meleebrawler]

Dont even bother bring batteries if u use pro controller. Just plug ur controller into the wii u with the cable to avoid interference.

I don't think that actually makes the connection wired, unless it's some other peripheral for pro controller I'm unaware of. As far as I know the cable is only for charging. Not like plugging it into your computer via USB port lets you control stuff on it...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

nvm this, I'm on a roll of bad posts today :/

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I don't think that actually makes the connection wired, unless it's some other peripheral for pro controller I'm unaware of. As far as I know the cable is only for charging. Not like plugging it into your computer via USB port lets you control stuff on it...

It doesn't make the controller wired, it just disconnects the controller from the system when you unplug it because it can't power itself without batteries (duh).
I just wish they'd make a gamecube controller with the pro controller layout and access to all the buttons.
Or even make it so you could just plug in something like an Xbox controller and have it work as a wired controller. Or better yet, just make it possible to make the damn pro controller wired when you plug it in. It really wouldn't be that hard.

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't think that actually makes the connection wired, unless it's some other peripheral for pro controller I'm unaware of. As far as I know the cable is only for charging. Not like plugging it into your computer via USB port lets you control stuff on it...

plugging ur pro controller in prevents desync problems, not necessarily making it wired.

 

[blackghost]

Isn't Kane Blueriver arguably the best Marvel player right now, and he uses a team that's not traditionally considered strong (until he started using it)?

Also, 5 points to anyone who knows what "Kane Blueriver" is a reference to.

i thought chris g is still ptobably the best marvel player. also someone said there os a combonation of 14 viable marvel characters thats way too low.
and kbr used "tean online scrub" to win evo

 

[C0rvus]

Marvel is a weird example for many reasons but KBR won EVO with a team of big bodies, which I guess would be like if LordMix won some big event. Marvel 3's scene is dying iirc so I can't say recent results reflect upon the game at its peak. I say this as someone who doesn't really pay attention to that game of scene so grains of salt.

Smash 4 has lots of characters. Plenty of them are viable, but that term means little because of how variable the meaning tends to be for different people. Play whoever you want, almost none of us are going to win majors. Try and have some fun.

 

[FSLink]

What the heck is the reasoning for that?

Like I understand when people ban gamepads due to only one being allowed and pro controllers being banned due to the weird poblem where they automatictially turn on (Alhough I disagree with either being banned).

But..... what the heck is the reasoning for wii remotes being banned? That's a new one

On top of the wireless issues that arise from having a lot of them at supermajors, EVO also has a history with interference from wireless users, here's a clip from EVO 2008 Grand Finals for Tekken 5:DR where someone in the crowd had their wireless controller hit the home button on accident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAsUqN1KPjw

Interestingly enough they are allowing Dual Shock 4's this year but I heard it was for the MKX community.

I feel sorry for ScAtt but the rules have been known for awhile. I'd imagine the Wii U Pro Controller is still allowed because it's easier to desync with the battery-less option. If there was a better wired solution for Wii Remote + Nunchuk I could see it being allowed with the caveat of if you don't properly unpair your controller you are subject for disqualification.

Also RE: Marvel, I wouldn't really compare LordMix to KBR. Maybe later down the line, but there's more to it than just "they both use big bodies". Hulk is a viable character in Marvel because he has great tools at the beginning of the round and does massive damage and a smart player can take advantage of his super armor abilities...which can help punish mistakes, and a mistake in Marvel is a lot more costly than a mistake in Smash 4. Hard to say about Bowser's long term success at the moment, we'll see.