Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Wintermelon43]

On top of the wireless issues that arise from having a lot of them at supermajors, EVO also has a history with interference from wireless users, here's a clip from EVO 2008 Grand Finals for Tekken 5:DR where someone in the crowd had their wireless controller hit the home button on accident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAsUqN1KPjw

Interestingly enough they are allowing Dual Shock 4's this year but I heard it was for the MKX community.

I feel sorry for ScAtt but the rules have been known for awhile. I'd imagine the Wii U Pro Controller is still allowed because it's easier to desync with the battery-less option. If there was a better wired solution for Wii Remote + Nunchuk I could see it being allowed with the caveat of if you don't properly unpair your controller you are subject for disqualification.

Also RE: Marvel, I wouldn't really compare LordMix to KBR. Maybe later down the line, but there's more to it than just "they both use big bodies". Hulk is a viable character in Marvel because he has great tools at the beginning of the round and does massive damage and a smart player can take advantage of his super armor abilities...which can help punish mistakes, and a mistake in Marvel is a lot more costly than a mistake in Smash 4. Hard to say about Bowser's long term success at the moment, we'll see.

Woudn't the batteryless thing work for a wii remote too?

 

[Nobie]

https://esports.yahoo.com/zero-explains-differences-between-smash-160000272.html

ZeRo talks about the difference between Melee and Smash 4.

Not to make this a "which game is better," but the thing I found most interesting is his statement that in Melee when you do well you feel like you "played a good game of Melee," whereas when you succeed in Smash 4 you feel like you "really understood the opponent."

I think this goes along with a lot of what supporters of both games say about their preferred version.

 

[Jexulus]

https://esports.yahoo.com/zero-explains-differences-between-smash-160000272.html

ZeRo talks about the difference between Melee and Smash 4.

Not to make this a "which game is better," but the thing I found most interesting is his statement that in Melee when you do well you feel like you "played a good game of Melee," whereas when you succeed in Smash 4 you feel like you "really understood the opponent."

I think this goes along with a lot of what supporters of both games say about their preferred version.

I think D1 found a kindred spirit in the guy who posed the question. Watch this video and tell me that guy and D1 don't have the same face. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5dvzzmiVl4 I feel that guy's pain, man. Good thing it's hilarious.

ZeRo's statements seem to line up with the general theory that Melee is more about "character vs. character" and Smash 4 is more about "player vs. player." If nothing else, this makes me more excited to watch EVO this year.

 

[ARGHETH]

Spoiler: MU Chart

You3 made a MU Chart, apparently. I'm not sure it's completely serious, considering he apparently thinks DH is +2 against himself.
Only having 11 negative MUs is very suspect.
I'm also personally confused as to why Shulk and Link win but almost every other swordfighter loses.

EDIT: censored

 

[Das Koopa]

lol'd @ the R.O.B/Cloud title

 

[TurboLink]

Spoiler: MU Chart

You3 made a MU Chart, apparently. I'm not sure it's completely serious, considering he apparently thinks DH is +2 against himself.
Only having 11 negative MUs is very suspect.
I'm also personally confused as to why Shulk and Link win but almost every other swordfighter loses.

Well can you name another swordsman with just as much disjoint as Link who can also forces approaches just as well as Link can with his projectiles?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Spoiler: MU Chart

You3 made a MU Chart, apparently. I'm not sure it's completely serious, considering he apparently thinks DH is +2 against himself.
Only having 11 negative MUs is very suspect.
I'm also personally confused as to why Shulk and Link win but almost every other swordfighter loses.

Duck Hunt being +2 is defitenly a joke, I've heard that Game and Watches sometime say the lose slightly to themselves due to a tech that only works on him and a few others or something as a joke as well.

Not surprised it's so optmistic though, You3 said on the Duck Hunt discord that he thinks Duck Hunt is high tier and possibly even top 10 (And that 9B said he might agree).

Surprised at him saying only 11 character beat him (Only 2 of them being top tier and Only 1 being high tier) and that there are that many +3s. imo Kirby and Puff are only +1.

Also Link is like even, maybe slightly in Duck Hunt's favor, idk why he put that as -2.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Well can you name another swordsman with just as much disjoint as Link who can also forces approaches just as well as Link can with his projectiles?

Toon Link, but strangely enough he's 0. I'm not a Toon Link expert, but since he's faster and safer most of the time, should he have the advantage over Duck Hunt?

 

[TurboLink]

Toon Link, but strangely enough he's 0. I'm not a Toon Link expert, but since he's faster and safer most of the time, should he have the advantage over Duck Hunt?

I don't know how you came to this conclusion when Toon Link has noticeably overall less range than Link.

 

[Aaron1997]

Nobody has said anything about Shiek and Zss being +2 in DH favor. Also Diddy +1, Fox +1 , Ryu +3 and Rosa Even

 

[StaffofSmashing]

I don't know how you came to this conclusion when Toon Link has noticeably overall less range than Link.

Again, I'm not a Toon Link expert. I don't play him myself and only watch Hyuga for Toon Link matchup theory crafting. But since Toon Link plays a little more campy (traditionally), is faster than Duck Hunt, and has some safe options in neutral like projectiles, he should have some sort of advantage.

 

[Ffamran]

Spoiler: MU Chart

You3 made a MU Chart, apparently. I'm not sure it's completely serious, considering he apparently thinks DH is +2 against himself.
Only having 11 negative MUs is very suspect.
I'm also personally confused as to why Shulk and Link win but almost every other swordfighter loses.

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and that you didn't pay attention to exactly what all the sections were listed as like it would just be -3, -2, -1, even, etc., but in the future and this goes for everyone, if you see a swear word, try to censor it out or if you really have to, put a warning. It's just a Smashboard policy; nothing against anyone or anything. Yes, I know, it's a minor thing when there's just one F-word, but could you imagine someone making a legitimate MU spread that looks fine and is explained in extremely meticulous detail, but the captions are like, "This N-word...", "**** these *******!", "Easier than plowing a ************", "Dammit! Get off my lawn!", "***** you ain't gonna win **** against me!", etc.

 

[Furret24]

Duck Hunt being +2 is defitenly a joke, I've heard that Game and Watches sometime say the lose slightly to themselves due to a tech that only works on him and a few others or something as a joke as well.

If you wanna know why, it's because of how G&W is great against G&W. His tools just work so well against him, especially up smash and down throw, which allow him stuff a lot of G&W's approaches, kill him crazy early, and rack a ton of damage on him.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Regarding the Falcon/Jiggs MU​

Keep this in the back of your mind while you read this, or any other post regarding the MU: it's very unexplored, and we don't have enough information on it to truly come to a conclusion.

If Falcon is sent off stage and the Puff pursues him, he's more than likely to suffer a KO. Even at low percents, Falcon is in danger of being KOed via gimp. For this reason, Falcon doesn't particularly want to go off stage as much, keeping his overall game very grounded. Through the combination of a poor recovery, Puffs long lasting hitboxes, and her multiple jumps, Falcon gets messed up while off stage. The disadvantage state for Puff can quickly turn into Falcon being KOed.

What's more is her crouch shuts down his grab game, which generally speaking, is the starting point for several of his combos. In the case where Falcon manage to land a grab, due the the floaty/light nature of Puff's character combos tend to be shortened and rendered as ineffective much earlier than they would on the rest of the cast.

Most of what makes Falcon great (e.g. grab game, offstage game, combo game, etc.) is much less prominent in this MU.

On the other hand, Puff dies extremely early to a plethora of Falcon's moves, including but not limited to Knee, Bair, Dair, Dsmash, Fsmash, Raptor Boost, and Falcon Kick. The catch is, Falcon has very few set-ups into these moves meaning Puff will only die should the Falcon make a read, the Puff make a mistake, or some combination thereof. Of course, the threat still stands.

If the Puff isn't able to secure a gimp, it becomes more of an uphill battle for her (though I wouldn't necessarily call it disadvantageous). Her hits do less damage in comparison, and she doesn't have many combos to quickly rack up damage. At higher percents, it quickly evolves into a game of catch me if you can with the Falcon charging at the Puff, and the Puff abusing her aerial mobility and airdodges.

The MU could be anywhere from 40:60 to 60:40. L̶e̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶6̶0̶:̶6̶0̶. Until more people give Puff a chance and explore the MU, it's going to remain a mystery.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Cause I was bored I decided to make a top 5 sonic players in order!

1.Komorikiri
2.KEN
3.Wrath
4.6WX
5.SuperGirlKels

 

[TDK]

Cause I was bored I decided to make a top 5 sonic players in order!

1.Komorikiri
2.KEN
3.Wrath
4.6WX
5.SuperGirlKels

Move Wrath to 5 and that's my list too.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Cause I was bored I decided to make a top 5 sonic players in order!

1.Komorikiri
2.KEN
3.Wrath
4.6WX
5.SuperGirlKels

IxisNaugus is probably better than SGKels, maybe 6WX but that's a stretch, just because 6WX these days is highly inconsistent.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

I know I'm late to the ditto talk but I love the Shulk ditto. It's really cool to see how each Monado interacts with each other, like Shield vs Smash or Jump vs Speed.

 

[UberMadman]

If you wanna know why, it's because of how G&W is great against G&W. His tools just work so well against him, especially up smash and down throw, which allow him stuff a lot of G&W's approaches, kill him crazy early, and rack a ton of damage on him.

Actually, I personally believe Game and Watch to not be that great against Game and Watch because his approaches gets stuffed, he dies quickly, and finds himself taking a lot of % surprisingly fast.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

https://twitter.com/cfs_kiro13/status/747868227242438656

I have no words to perfectly describe the lack of maturity this community can have.

 

[TDK]

Keeping someone off of stream because they main sonic is straight-up discrimination.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Is this MM4 or SGDQ cause Hyuga is running a freight train on cancer right now.

Edit: Didn't take the set but close! Good adaption from 6WX

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Keeping someone off of stream because they main sonic is straight-up discrimination.

This may be an unpopular opinion but,

I know it is, but look at MM4 right now. When Grand Finals started (Hyuga vs 6WX) the viewers were 2550, by the time the set ended, they were barely hanging at 2000. Imagine if that kind of a dip happened at EVO; a tournament that needs views for advertising and sponsors.

The streams are made for the viewers, not the players.

 

[Illuminose]

6wx is back

3-1s ally, pulls it back after being down 0-4 in grands vs hyuga. 6wx's hot n cold game when he actually thinks about playing with less aggression is ridiculous, unlike wrath who is a much better at playing cold than hot. he started camping against ally and timed him out twice, which is something I have never seen 6wx do ever. it's sorta KEN-esque play I would say -- in any case 6wx looked clean w/ the best play I've seen from him in months (last time I remember seeing him playing well at a decent sized/stacked your is winter brawl when he beat anti). don't really think he's losing the title of best na sonic anymore tbf.

 

[Charoite]

So are you telling that camping sonic is actually better than aggressive sonic who would thought, more characters would go in up if they play defensive or at least implement some, offensive can only get you so far.

 

[TDK]

Actually, I personally believe Game and Watch to not be that great against Game and Watch because his approaches gets stuffed, he dies quickly, and finds himself taking a lot of % surprisingly fast.

Situations like this make the character great and terrible against themselves.

 

[Yikarur]

I hate how the EVO staff really has NO IDEA about smash.
How can you allow WiiU Pro Controller with no modifications made but ban Nunchuck? (WiiU Pro Controller can ruin set-ups, for Nunchuck you just need to remove batteries..)
Eddy from germany is going to EVO and he is playing Wiimote and Nunchuck as well... what to do?
I've written to the support with rule change suggestions because their controler rules don't make sense and I really hope they listen to me because this is bull****.

 

[thehard]

This may be an unpopular opinion but,

I know it is, but look at MM4 right now. When Grand Finals started (Hyuga vs 6WX) the viewers were 2550, by the time the set ended, they were barely hanging at 2000. Imagine if that kind of a dip happened at EVO; a tournament that needs views for advertising and sponsors.

The streams are made for the viewers, not the players.

Just saying, but the stream cut out near the end for a few minutes. Luckily a stock hadn't been taken by the time it was restored

I don't actually think characters play a huge role in views, it's more to do with proper commentary and familiar players. On a wider scale at least

 

[Vhaltz]

I hate how the EVO staff really has NO IDEA about smash.
How can you allow WiiU Pro Controller with no modifications made but ban Nunchuck? (WiiU Pro Controller can ruin set-ups, for Nunchuck you just need to remove batteries..)
Eddy from germany is going to EVO and he is playing Wiimote and Nunchuck as well... what to do?
I've written to the support with rule change suggestions because their controler rules don't make sense and I really hope they listen to me because this is bull****.

It seems like Bear has tried to get the rulings changed for quite some time but it hasn't worked out, so it doesn't seem like getting complaints in now will make much of a difference unfortunately. Here's what he said in the reddit thread on Scatt not being able to attend EVO:

Hey y'all it's Bear,

I'm a strong supporter of responsible wireless use & a huge Mega Man fan and main. I asked to have Wii Motes legal this year back in March but the ruling wouldn't budge. I asked nicely every once in a while but sadly no go.

I'd like y'all to know that any other tournament that I have full control for rules I'll advocate for responsible wireless controller usage. I hope to see ScAtt at other events I host as he knows I've always been accommodating for responsible wireless use and appreciate his understanding.

Thank you for your support for ScAtt and he's a great person player and I do enjoy his commentary.

Best,

Bear

 

[anas abou]

The MU could be anywhere from 40:60 to 60:40. L̶e̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶6̶0̶:̶6̶0̶. Until more people give Puff a chance and explore the MU, it's going to remain a mystery.

well hungrybox just beat fatality's falcon with jigglypuff, so i guess the matchup is in puff's favor right ??

 

[blackghost]

midwest mayhem was a pretty good tourney great showing for pink fresh and hyuga. overall probably bayonetta best showing ever in a major event. she will stay relevant especially if "high level" players continue to not learn how to sdi and di her strings.

 

[soniczx123]

midwest mayhem was a pretty good tourney great showing for pink fresh and hyuga. overall probably bayonetta best showing ever in a major event. she will stay relevant especially if "high level" players continue to not learn how to sdi and di her strings.

Mixing things up with her allow those strings to consistently work. The opponent is unsure on what to DI after every starter. Bayo's mixup game needs to be on point in order to stay relevant. She's still top 15 for sure with a potential top 10 spot. It seems like you downplay Bayo everytime she's a topic after the nerfs.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

well hungrybox just beat fatality's falcon with jigglypuff, so i guess the matchup is in puff's favor right ??

One set is not what a MU ratio should be based off of. If it starts happening consistently, I'd be more than willing to say Falcon loses, but as for right now, Rawkstar put it best, if Jiggs can gimp Falcon it's in her favor, if she can't it's in Falcon's favor.

Even if Falcon loses, I definitely don't feel that Ganon does and if you play Falcon it's pretty safe to say you can at least play a decent Ganon.

 

[Djent]

This may be an unpopular opinion but,

I know it is, but look at MM4 right now. When Grand Finals started (Hyuga vs 6WX) the viewers were 2550, by the time the set ended, they were barely hanging at 2000. Imagine if that kind of a dip happened at EVO; a tournament that needs views for advertising and sponsors.

The streams are made for the viewers, not the players.

I propose that the tournament's ridiculous delays (12 am finish) and the stream crash during GF2 had waaay more to do with the drop in numbers. Smash players typically just stick around and complain about things they dislike instead of doing other things with their lives. I myself am no huge Sonic fan, but I'll always watch Komo/KEN/6WX, and I don't mind "lesser" ones if they can finish their sets in < 15 minutes.

 

[Blobface]

Even if Falcon loses, I definitely don't feel that Ganon does and if you play Falcon it's pretty safe to say you can at least play a decent Ganon.

Captain Falcon and Ganon play nothing alike. Try to play one like the other and you'll get trashed.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Captain Falcon and Ganon play nothing alike. Try to play one like the other and you'll get trashed.

You'd be correct, against most of the cast, they don't play alike. However, I'm talking specifically against Jigglypuff. Ganon does Falcon's game plan against Jiggs better because he does more damage and kills better. I would never use Ganondorf over Falcon for any other MU, I'd likely use Marth or Mac, even then it depends on the Jigglypuff's play style whether or not I choose Marth or Ganon.

 

[Das Koopa]

taking the time to research results for L.A.F.F and Divine Intervention has made me realize just how much I don't like it when people use colors for there tags

"Blue?! THERE ARE LIKE 5 OF THOSE"

Anyway I'm using 5 tournies this week, I'll post everything up in a bit and update the scores a bit later. It's a good day for low-tiers (Puff, Zard, and Shulk all got results...)

 

[StaffofSmashing]

midwest mayhem was a pretty good tourney great showing for pink fresh and hyuga. overall probably bayonetta best showing ever in a major event. she will stay relevant especially if "high level" players continue to not learn how to sdi and di her strings.

I remember during a Xanadu Pink Fresh did this insane string with tons of reads, and I think that's how Bayonettas are going to combo. Down Tilt, Fair, Side B, etc. Since there aren't any more 0-Death true combos, Bayonettas are going to have to get creative. When you take options away from a character the players are forced to find new ones. (See: Diddy Kong)

 

[Kofu]

Captain Falcon and Ganon play nothing alike. Try to play one like the other and you'll get trashed.

Hey, I find loads of success blindly running at my opponents as Ganon and going for the dash grab.

Though, logically, you could probably play Falcon much like Ganon and do pretty well (aside from Flame Choke shenanigans, though his better grab is a decent substitute).

 

[Luco]

Oh, Scatt uses wiichuk? My hero! <3

I noticed that little addendum myself some time ago, and it's a real shame. Shout-outs to Bear for being a champ though. Wiichuk is one of the easier problems to solve too, although I won't deny it can and has ruined sets in the past. It's hard to keep your concentration up for a full day or even 3 in the case of majors and dis-connect every time. Wiichuk players are usually used to the difficulty of it but it's difficult if you can't attend *the* event of the year.

On a co-incidentally tengentally-related topic, I don't know what it is about camping that gets to people. For a game that's so full of in-close fighting I personally find campy play and characters totally refreshing to watch and tense in a totally different way because suddenly every little percent matters. The internet is full of meme culture and spam, I wouldn't be surprised if 'campy hate' is less a majority of viewers and more a cauldron of some haters and more individuals who either want to stir things up or repeat said memes.

Ixis is a totally legitimate player, I think one of his biggest strengths that I've seen is his INCREDIBLE adaptive play. I remember watching Albion and most of Ixis' sets later in that tournament consisted of a game 1 loss followed by a dominating games 2, 3 and if needed 4. He often comes out looking weaker than he is and he's definitely a contender for top 5 Sonic. If not, then he's almost certainly 6th and sitting hungrily waiting for any of the other 5 to drop their guard before moving in for the title.