Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shady Shaymin]

This is starting to make me wonder if Kirby really is just a worse version of Pikachu. Like, are any of Kirby's strengths not just done better by Pikachu? They're both short and light, but Pikachu actually has a neutral (and a pretty good one at that). Kirby's crouch is better and I guess his low percent combos are better, but Pikachu still gets like 40 percent on Fox from uptilt strings, which isn't quite what Kirby can do but it's close. I would gladly take mobility and a better recovery over slightly better low percent strings.

 

[Nobie]

This is starting to make me wonder if Kirby really is just a worse version of Pikachu. Like, are any of Kirby's strengths not just done better by Pikachu? They're both short and light, but Pikachu actually has a neutral (and a pretty good one at that). Kirby's crouch is better and I guess his low percent combos are better, but Pikachu still gets like 40 percent on Fox from uptilt strings, which isn't quite what Kirby can do but it's close. I would gladly take mobility and a better recovery over slightly better low percent strings.

A while back, people called Kirby a poor man's Meta Knight. Now he's a poor man's Pikachu? I'm doubtful.

These days Kirby is distinguished from MK with a more grounded game, and from Pika from the fact that he has more variation in killing, namely having an actual kill throw.

Related to other complaints, it's also odd to me that someone would complain about Kirby's bad neutral not as a player but as an opponent. What other horrifying, game-ruining features will drop up next, facing Ganondorf's bad frame data?

This sounds like a minor case of Bayonetta syndrome. "Why can't I play the way I want to, without regard for my opponent's character?"

Also, both MikeKirby and Devon3k believe Kirby has a solid advantage over Falcon, so it's not just people randomly theory crafting.

 

[Asdioh]

This is starting to make me wonder if Kirby really is just a worse version of Pikachu. Like, are any of Kirby's strengths not just done better by Pikachu? They're both short and light, but Pikachu actually has a neutral (and a pretty good one at that). Kirby's crouch is better and I guess his low percent combos are better, but Pikachu still gets like 40 percent on Fox from uptilt strings, which isn't quite what Kirby can do but it's close. I would gladly take mobility and a better recovery over slightly better low percent strings.

Kirby has notably better kill potential, and his damage output per hit is higher. Otherwise he plays a lot differently. I wouldn't really compare him to Pikachu.
I'm serious when I say he feels like Mario0.5 or Fox0.5 :x

 

[C0rvus]

Speaking of Falcon losing to Kirby, I can't say I really have an idea of Falcon's matchup spread aside from solid losses to Sheik and Pikachu. I imagine there are a lot of even matches due to his kit, but we're looking at a potential high tier here; what are we working with? Like, how does Falcon do against Diddy and Cloud?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

He went samus game 1 of the first set of GFs and lost.

So I'm not sure why Samus is next to his name, did he win any earlier rounds with Samus?

But anyway, if we're looking at the Pika/Bayo matchup, it was 4-2 in ESAM's favour against Pinkfresh.
But ESAM lost to saj as well at CEO (2-1), and saj is a better bayo thank Pinkfresh right now, so there's more evidence that bayo beats Pika than the contrary.

He may have lost to Saj because of matchup inexperience and then just used what he learned from those games to beat Pink Fresh. There hasn't been much Pikachu vs Bayo post patch to be seen

 

[blackghost]

He may have lost to Saj because of matchup inexperience and then just used what he learned from those games to beat Pink Fresh. There hasn't been much Pikachu vs Bayo post patch to be seen

prepatch the matchup wasnt particulary good for bayo. with bayo now basically just straight worse pikachu probably wins now for sure.
esam lost the first time becaise he didnt respectt witch time. never disrespect witch time.

 

[C0rvus]

Campy, passive Pikachu certainly gives Bayonetta a hard time. I imagine it takes more than a couple sets for even top players to figure out a relatively new matchup. A bigger sample size would also be nice.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pikachu having the advantage against Bayonetta sounds utterly unrealistic and implausible to me.

 

[soniczx123]

Pikachu having the advantage against Bayonetta sounds utterly unrealistic and implausible to me.

Elaborate.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bayonetta is a very good character.
Pikachu is not a very good character.

For a matchup between these two to favor Pikachu, there has to be some mighty specific interaction of tools that turn out in Pikachu's advantage consistently. Otherwise there's no way it's any better than even. So the question is: what is it that supposedly gives Pikachu the advantage specifically against Bayonetta - an advantage that he currently does not have against any top- or high- tier character, mind you? That's what requires elaboration, not me questioning such baseless claims.

 

[Amadeus9]

Bayonetta is a very good character.
Pikachu is not a very good character.

For a matchup between these two to favor Pikachu, there has to be some mighty specific interaction of tools that turn out in Pikachu's advantage consistently. Otherwise there's no way it's any better than even. So the question is: what is it that supposedly gives Pikachu the advantage specifically against Bayonetta - an advantage that he currently does not have against any top- or high- tier character, mind you? That's what requires elaboration, not me questioning such baseless claims.

This is some fallacious reasoning, to say the least. So now we assume that any character we think is generally worse than another, can't beat that character. mmk

Regardless I've seen quite a few points exacting the case for pikas advantage on this page, you can maybe debate those rather than continuously posing the question

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Since the popular opinion nowadays is that there's no character that's significantly the best, what do you guys think is the best dual main combination in the game?

I haven't put much thought into it but Diddy/Sheik immediately comes to mind. Between the two of them every matchup seems to be even or in their favour outside of possibly Mario (as some argue Mario beats both which I'm not sure I agree with).

 

[verbatim]

You could make the argument that they both lose to Rosa.

IMO some combination of Mario/Cloud/Diddy.

 

[Megamang]

Depends on your region, bracket, and opponent. To know a mathematical answer, we will need to know a lot more about how matchups play out over the next few months. Perhaps a seemingly weak combination can become very strong with a third character dedicated soley to defeating, say, Cloud, for example.


I've always said this, but I truly believe it. Its not like you have to 'master' a character for him to be a valuable addition to your roster. You can simply learn one MU strongly, and it can be good enough if that MU is what is keeping you from advancing in bracket. Of course, this strategy is weak to CP's, but finds itself very effective against 'solo mains'.

 

[verbatim]

Have you found success doing this in tournaments? IMO people should absolutely not be spreading themselves so thin unless/until they are consistently winning twice as many sets or more than they lose on average. Before that and honestly even after I think it's better to play one character and focus on your mentality as a player.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Have you found success doing this in tournaments? IMO people should absolutely not be spreading themselves so thin unless/until they are consistently winning twice as many sets or more than they lose on average. Before that and honestly even after I think it's better to play one character and focus on your mentality as a player.

I wouldn't call playing 2 characters spreading yourself thin. Most top players already seem to have a pocket Cloud anyway. And some of these pocket Clouds are beating other top players using characters they've been maining since Brawl.

The way I see it there's no absolute best character in this game and EVERY top tier character has glaring weaknesses. Sheik can't kill, Diddy, Fox and Cloud get gimped, Mario can't deal with disjoints, Ryu is slow etc.

So picking two characters that cover each other's weaknesses seem ideal and I think we'll be seeing a lot of this as the game progresses .

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik beats Mario 55:45 and goes even with Diddy/Rosa. Diddy players, like usual, insist that he loses to her.
The only MU Sheik loses imo is Mewtwo but she has more than a handful of matchups where you need to work harder than the opponent to win them(Rosa, Ryu, DK, Lucario, etc). I think switching off specifically to avoid the mental strain and do something more comfortable rather than going for an advantage CP is what Sheik players should start doing.

 

[Illusion.]

Since the thread is slow today, gonna let you guys know about a decent size tournament (110+ entrants) happening this Saturday: Impact. Here's a list of notable players in the state that will be going:

Spoiler

Trela
Megafox
Jerm
SaSSy
Espy
GrimTurtle
HaKii
Illusion
Whiteout
KJ
Yellowrello
Deluxemenu
Pwii
Slaps
Joker
Tesh
Whispy
FunCrazyFish

There will be a stream (I think it's https://www.twitch.tv/210smash but don't quote me on that)
Any other big touraments going on this weekend?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

/ and / are probably the best dual main setups right now, but honestly you have so many more options than that and you can really get creative with your character selection in this meta.

 

[verbatim]

Mist top players already seem to have a pocket Cloud anyway. And some of these pocket Clouds are beating other top players using characters they've been maining since Brawl.

"Top Players" win significantly more sets in any given tournament than they lose. When I talk about"spreading yourself too thin" I'm not talking about people that have been consistently winning money in comp smash tournaments for the past 5-10 years, they are not a good representation of the average player.

Can you lose a set because of a matchup? Yes, but if you are continuously fluctuating between 0-2 and 2-2, it's probably you and not your main that is the issue, and looking for CP characters to deal w/ beginner consistency issues will just set you back as a player.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is some fallacious reasoning, to say the least. So now we assume that any character we think is generally worse than another, can't beat that character. mmk

Nobody used terms like "can't beat" so I have no idea why you brought that up.

My reasoning is also far from fallacious - it's generally not plausible to assume that a worse character beats the better character unless there's some specific reasoning provided [which already isn't the case in the Pikachu vs Bayonetta matchup]. A better character is better -and wins more matchups- for specific reasons and these reasons ultimately play a role in any matchup. Bayonetta is a better character than Pikachu because she has better, more consistent damage output, more range on her neutrals and because she's not held back as much as Pikachu by an utter incapability of getting KOs. That makes her a better character than Pikachu. But these are the same reasons that make it plausible to assume that Pikachu doesn't just have the advantage in a direct confrontation against Bayonetta. It is not a plausible assumption and it's necessary to point out what exactly allows Pikachu to mitigate his shortcomings as a character specifically against Bayonetta when her character traits are generally superior.

Nobody has ever provided a good reason why the matchup is supposed to be in Pikachu's favor nor do results imply as much in any way. Would it be plausible to assume that Greninja beats Diddy Kong just because somebody claims it is? When results lean towards an evenish matchup? We have a 2-2 record between Pikachu and Bayonetta for now and all observable data tell us that Bayonetta is overall a stronger character. There's no logic that could reasonably lead us to the conclusion that Pikachu wins this. It's absolutely implausible to assume so.

And Bayonetta being the better character of course has a lot to do with it.

 

[blackghost]

Nobody used terms like "can't beat" so I have no idea why you brought that up.

My reasoning is also far from fallacious - it's generally not plausible to assume that a worse character beats the better character unless there's some specific reasoning provided [which already isn't the case in the Pikachu vs Bayonetta matchup]. A better character is better -and wins more matchups- for specific reasons and these reasons ultimately play a role in any matchup. Bayonetta is a better character than Pikachu because she has better, more consistent damage output, more range on her neutrals and because she's not held back as much as Pikachu by an utter incapability of getting KOs. That makes her a better character than Pikachu. But these are the same reasons that make it plausible to assume that Pikachu doesn't just have the advantage in a direct confrontation against Bayonetta. It is not a plausible assumption and it's necessary to point out what exactly allows Pikachu to mitigate his shortcomings as a character specifically against Bayonetta when her character traits are generally superior.

Nobody has ever provided a good reason why the matchup is supposed to be in Pikachu's favor nor do results imply as much in any way. Would it be plausible to assume that Greninja beats Diddy Kong just because somebody claims it is? When results lean towards an evenish matchup? We have a 2-2 record between Pikachu and Bayonetta for now and all observable data tell us that Bayonetta is overall a stronger character. There's no logic that could reasonably lead us to the conclusion that Pikachu wins this. It's absolutely implausible to assume so.

And Bayonetta being the better character of course has a lot to do with it.

You are acting like bayonetta is universally seen as a better character. bayo mains and the community have no idea where she fits in currently.
i'm really curious to know what trait from bayonetta make her such a superior character to bayo.
right now bayo is in a weird place... many players still believe her to be good but most of those players really dont know/understand her. i main her and if you asked me to place her on a tier list she could be anywhere from 11-16 (as a guess). its really easy to tell when a player has bayo experience vs when they don't.
things people can agree on with bayo are the following:
you lose to her if you dont respect witch time
you lose if you dont escape the VERY escapable combos post patch (especially witch twist ones)
and you lose if you rush her continously.
you beat bayo if
you have a kill throw or kill thorw setup
optimally use any somewhat decent projectile
dont give her obvious witch time chances
make he approach
pikachu can do all of the requirements to beat bayo. but bayo only needs you to really mess up like 3 to 4 times or miss your di a few times.
you can look at esam two or three games in the past 2 weeks against a bayonetta and he made very simple changes and then reverse 3-0'd pink fresh in gf.
pikachu has superior normals, superior mobility, superiors grab game, better platform utilization, and less lag. pikachu shouldnt die to a gimp either.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Nobody used terms like "can't beat" so I have no idea why you brought that up.

My reasoning is also far from fallacious - it's generally not plausible to assume that a worse character beats the better character unless there's some specific reasoning provided [which already isn't the case in the Pikachu vs Bayonetta matchup]. A better character is better -and wins more matchups- for specific reasons and these reasons ultimately play a role in any matchup. Bayonetta is a better character than Pikachu because she has better, more consistent damage output, more range on her neutrals and because she's not held back as much as Pikachu by an utter incapability of getting KOs. That makes her a better character than Pikachu. But these are the same reasons that make it plausible to assume that Pikachu doesn't just have the advantage in a direct confrontation against Bayonetta. It is not a plausible assumption and it's necessary to point out what exactly allows Pikachu to mitigate his shortcomings as a character specifically against Bayonetta when her character traits are generally superior.

Nobody has ever provided a good reason why the matchup is supposed to be in Pikachu's favor nor do results imply as much in any way. Would it be plausible to assume that Greninja beats Diddy Kong just because somebody claims it is? When results lean towards an evenish matchup? We have a 2-2 record between Pikachu and Bayonetta for now and all observable data tell us that Bayonetta is overall a stronger character. There's no logic that could reasonably lead us to the conclusion that Pikachu wins this. It's absolutely implausible to assume so.

And Bayonetta being the better character of course has a lot to do with it.

Assuming a character wins the matchup just because they're "better" is silly. She may be a stronger character overall but that does not necessarily mean that she has the tools to deal with Pikachu, a character who has the tools to play pretty much any matchup. Its like ZSS vs Ike in brawl, just because ZSS was the better character overall doesn't mean that she wins the matchup.

 

[ARGHETH]

Nobody used terms like "can't beat" so I have no idea why you brought that up.

Otherwise there's no way it's any better than even.

That's "can't beat" in all but name.

 

[C0rvus]

Another thing to consider when talking competitive pairs, is that 45 55 matchups tend to be very much playable and winnable in tournament, even at top level. I realize this is a pretty blanket statement, but while has a pretty long list of hard matchups she has been seen to be more or less able to compete by herself. Perhaps she won't win a major unless she dodges top level Diddy players, but it's really a question of what we consider viable to mean.

I think that many, many pairs can get you where you belong in bracket; and while the game may seem to be counterpick heavy, player skill is the primary factor in determining who wins a set. There are a laundry list of other factors, of course.

 

[meticulousboy]

I think Kirby can't be a poor man's Pikachu if Kirby has the better autocancel windows, especially on Dair, which does lead into Up Tilt chains if the Dair connected to begin with. Besides, Kirby can spike more reliably than Pikachu.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Since when has 45:55 MUs, been considered anything else but winnable 0_0?

 

[Megamang]

Regarding the confusion on 'cannot beat'. Some are interpreting it as 'this character can't win in a game/set' but the poster is using it to mean 'they must either go even or do better than in the MU ratio'. Just something I noticed that was causing dissonance.


Mewtwo's rolls... is having a roll with 'bad' frame data a problem if many use rolls as mobility (even at top level, not spamming by any means but a well placed roll is powerful) and his are great at this? It seems like his retreating roll is powerful, but he can't really crossup with it safely.

 

[blackghost]

Another thing to consider when talking competitive pairs, is that 45 55 matchups tend to be very much playable and winnable in tournament, even at top level. I realize this is a pretty blanket statement, but while has a pretty long list of hard matchups she has been seen to be more or less able to compete by herself. Perhaps she won't win a major unless she dodges top level Diddy players, but it's really a question of what we consider viable to mean.

I think that many, many pairs can get you where you belong in bracket; and while the game may seem to be counterpick heavy, player skill is the primary factor in determining who wins a set. There are a laundry list of other factors, of course.

bayonetta needs to prove she can consistently take locals post patch vefore we even talk about regionals or majors. dont think shes solo viable to win a regional. you cant have a bad shiek mu, a horrific doddy mu, and a miserable mario match up and be solo viable at a regional or major. but even prepatch she couldnt place at major events consistently.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Didn't Nietono lose to Saj at CEO?

What evidence is there for the matchup being terrible for Bayo?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Didn't Nietono lose to Saj at CEO?

What evidence is there for the matchup being terrible for Bayo?

Didn't ZeRo's pre-patch Sheik lose a game to Nairo's Zelda?
What evidence is there for the matchup being terrible for Zelda?

 

[Nobie]

Didn't Nietono lose to Saj at CEO?

What evidence is there for the matchup being terrible for Bayo?

I saw it less as Diddy losing to Bayo, and more Bayonetta being a counter to Nietono's particular play style.

Nietono is the master of ledge trapping, but Bayonetta's attacks are really good at dealing with ledge traps. He kept trying to set up, but she would keep After Burner Kicking through them like nothing.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Didn't ZeRo's pre-patch Sheik lose a game to Nairo's Zelda?
What evidence is there for the matchup being terrible for Zelda?

A game isn't the same as a BO5 set.

I saw it less as Diddy losing to Bayo, and more Bayonetta being a counter to Nietono's particular play style.

Nietono is the master of ledge trapping, but Bayonetta's attacks are really good at dealing with ledge traps. He kept trying to set up, but she would keep After Burner Kicking through them like nothing.

So Bayonetta is good at getting back to the stage versus Diddy. That's more than what a lot of characters can say.

 

[|RK|]

So, the interviews with ANTi, Zinoto, and Dabuz from CEO are up on VGBC.

The interview with Dabuz was particularly interesting, because he says that he thinks Olimar is a bad character. He used him primarily to take advantage of matchup inexperience/discomfort.

 

[Y2Kay]

Yeah, I remember Dabuz saying he believes that Olimar could possibly be low or bottom tier in this meta's future. Angbad voiced similar opinions as well.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

The fact that matchup inexperience is such a strong factor even in top level matches is a sign that people need to start doing their homework.

 

[Nobie]

Not Smash-specific, but related to the topic at hand: http://shoryuken.com/2015/10/23/lordknight-explains-you-have-no-excuse-for-not-knowing-the-matchup/

 

[Y2Kay]

Pretty much all of my practice time is divided between learning MU's and practicing Greninja / Mewtwo / Lucario tech. I thought everybody else did the same.

 

[Solfiner]

Not Smash-specific, but related to the topic at hand: http://shoryuken.com/2015/10/23/lordknight-explains-you-have-no-excuse-for-not-knowing-the-matchup/

This is really relevant for me right now tbh.

Going to my first singles tourney tomorrow, and round 1 is against the player that is PR'd as second best (I believe) in my region. I just spent the last hour studying the match-up and his character in general and wrote my notes.

I feel like taking notes (Both on your own habits, what you should be doing more/less, match-ups etc.) is one of the best ways to improve as a player other than playing obviously.

 

[TDK]

Yeah, I remember Dabuz saying he believes that Olimar could possibly be low or bottom tier in this meta's future. Angbad voiced similar opinions as well.

This is funny, since Olimar was originally viewed as the worst character in the game.