Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Marcbri]

Neokan Party 2, 120 entrants - Vélizy-Villacoublay, France

1) Ixis
2) Glutonny
3) Marcbri
4) Khanage
5) Elexiao
5) Pefo
7) S1
7) Greward
9) PikaForLife
9) Homika
9) Yoren
9) Rydle
13) Griffith
13) Deimos
13) Vanaheim
13) OursOuzbek

Just wanted to point out that Greward used all Bowser in his bracket matches except the last set where he lost anyways and a single gamein losers that he won. I also didn't win any game with Cloud other than pools/WR1. Not really sure about other players with three characters using all of them either. Also Deimos used Diddy to beat Rydle after losing with ZSS so I guess it should be added.

yay we do not suck, or we suck as much as the rest of Europe lol.

 

[DblCrest]

Can Kirby realistically gain the lead against you somehow [usually either through low % combos or bair strings]?

If the answer is "yes":
Run away, avoid all direct confrontation with Kirby, don't ever approach unless you're 100% guaranteed to hit, use platforms if possible, always keep an eye on the option of timing Kirby out and generally stall the heck out of the game because if you lose the lead that's exactly what Kirby will do to you.

If the answer is "no":
Watch Kirby 'run away', avoiding all direct confrontation with you, not ever approaching unless he's 100% guaranteed to hit, staying away from platforms, always keeping an eye on the option of timing you out and generally stall the heck out of the game because if he loses the lead that's exactly what you will do to him.

People that play this character have no heart or soul, no respect for their opponent or themselves and have an infinite capacity to deal with boredom because they had a terrible childhood. They cry themselves to sleep every night and eat baby kittens for breakfast.

This was one of the last things I expected to be posted here. You'd think that Kirby was some sort of menace to the game's metagame with how you put that o.o;

 

[|RK|]

We have another stacked Xanadu with 157 Entrants tonight ( I think that's more then the Japanese Xanadu)
Will this be part of your thingy? Das Koopa

Spoiler: Xanadu Notables

ESAM
6WX
Pink fresh
Seagull Joe
Angel Cortes
Tension
Sova Unknown
Vice Roy
Illusion
Max Ketchum
C3PO
Logic
ZD
Dexter
Mister Eric
WadiRob
Techei
Zepher

It's exactly one more player, lol. So new record (again).

 

[Illusion.]

We have another stacked Xanadu with 157 Entrants tonight ( I think that's more then the Japanese Xanadu)
Will this be part of your thingy? Das Koopa

Spoiler: Xanadu Notables

ESAM
6WX
Pink fresh
Seagull Joe
Angel Cortes
Tension
Sova Unknown
Vice Roy
Illusion
Max Ketchum
C3PO
Logic
ZD
Dexter
Mister Eric
WadiRob
Techei
Zepher

I ended up not being able to go.

 

[Altair357]

Can Kirby realistically gain the lead against you somehow [usually either through low % combos or bair strings]?

If the answer is "yes":
Run away, avoid all direct confrontation with Kirby, don't ever approach unless you're 100% guaranteed to hit, use platforms if possible, always keep an eye on the option of timing Kirby out and generally stall the heck out of the game because if you lose the lead that's exactly what Kirby will do to you.

If the answer is "no":
Watch Kirby 'run away', avoiding all direct confrontation with you, not ever approaching unless he's 100% guaranteed to hit, staying away from platforms, always keeping an eye on the option of timing you out and generally stall the heck out of the game because if he loses the lead that's exactly what you will do to him.

People that play this character have no heart or soul, no respect for their opponent or themselves and have an infinite capacity to deal with boredom because they had a terrible childhood. They cry themselves to sleep every night and eat baby kittens for breakfast.

 

[Djent]

Pink Fresh just absolutely messed up ESAM 2-0.

I'm beginning to think Pika doesn't win this matchup as clearly as people say he does (or at all).

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I'm beginning to think you could make a pretty good analogy about ESAM being the Krillen of smash 4.

 

[PK Gaming]

Pink Fresh just absolutely messed up ESAM 2-0.

I'm beginning to think Pika doesn't win this matchup as clearly as people say he does (or at all).

ESAM supposedly said that Pikachu was Bayo's worst MU Pre-1.16 too.

Sweet, delicious irony... though it's beginning to become a cliche at this point.

 

[Murlough]

To be fair, ESAM is one of the most inconsistent players of Smash 4....unfortunately.

 

[Solfiner]

I would've thought short characters in general would really destroy Bayo, apparently not though. Shows what I know about the character.

 

[HoSmash4]

Or is Esam not the godly player we thought he was anymore?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Or is Esam not the godly player we thought he was anymore?

no no, hes still godly
Hes using PF as a chew toy right now and its great

Really showing off that up throw -> rar thunder

 

[ぱみゅ]

ESAM keeps falling for stuff he shouldn't.
Pikachu is 0 to -1 for Bayonetta as it forces approaches way better, can weave in and out her range, and is one of those characters against Dtilt pokes are quite unsafe.

Seriously, the CCI has this bad habit of using ESAM's anything to jab on Pikachu.

 

[Djent]

A lot of his thunder set-ups missed...

However, ESAM was absolutely suffocating. Pink Fresh just kind of folded under the pressure.

ESAM keeps falling for stuff he shouldn't.
Pikachu is 0 to -1 for Bayonetta as it forces approaches way better, can weave in and out her range, and is one of those characters against Dtilt pokes are quite unsafe.

Seriously, the CCI has this bad habit of using ESAM's anything to jab on Pikachu.

I say Pika wins not much if at all, you say "0 or -1," where's the disagreement exactly?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't think I said I disagree. But as a Bayo myself, the Pikachu matchup feels like a clean -1.
Might be 0 if I actually optimize my combo game but the neutral is a bumpy road.

EDIT: I'm basing the number off of both experience and Top-level observation (the conclusion is: Pikachu is a beast in neutral), I'm not being entirely anecdotal.

 

[Aaron1997]

Xanadu 157 Results

1. PG ESAM
2. Pink Fresh
3. WadiRob
4. C3PO
5. Angel Cortez
5. Coney
7. Max Ketchum
7. Seagull Joe
9. 6WX
9. Tension
9. ZD
9. Zephyr
13. Viceroy
13. Average Joe
13. Jebb
13.Dexter

 

[L9999]

Xanadu 157 Results

1. PG ESAM
2. Pink Fresh
3. WadiRob
4. C3PO
5. Angel Cortez
5. Coney
7. Max Ketchum
7. Seagull Joe
9. 6WX
9. Tension
9. ZD
9. Zephyr
13. Viceroy
13. Average Joe
13. Jebb
13.Dexter

Let me guess, ESAM busted out Samus to take out Pink Fresh. At least someone played her.

Seriously, the CCI has this bad habit of using ESAM's anything to jab on Pikachu.

This. If we are going to bash Pikachu at the very least we should all take into account Captain L, Shimitake, and all those other Rat players that do well instead of blaming the rat for everything ESAM does.

 

[Djent]

There are at least 2 players in Japan who are better than Shimitake, who more often goes 0-2 in bracket than "does well." Videos of the other two, Seig/Jiiku and Take, are unfortunately rare. Some of their wins were sadly not recorded.

EDIT: These videos are vs. pre-patch Bayo, and so don't weigh heavily on current MU discussion. I just chose the most recent footage I could find of these players, lol.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I understand we all disagree with his thoughts on Pikachu.

But can we not make constant jabs about ESAM?

Dude is still an amazing player and does a lot for he community.

 

[UberMadman]

Let me guess, ESAM busted out Samus to take out Pink Fresh. At least someone played her.

Nope. He apparently went all Pika. 0-2 in first set in Winner's Finals, 2-1 in first set in Grands, 2-0 in second set.

Also, for everyone else, if we could not bash a player for losing tournaments they didn't actually lose, that'd be great.

 

[Ghostbone]

Nope. He apparently went all Pika. 0-2 in first set in Winner's Finals, 2-1 in first set in Grands, 2-0 in second set.

Also, for everyone else, if we could not bash a player for losing tournaments they didn't actually lose, that'd be great.

He went samus game 1 of the first set of GFs and lost.

So I'm not sure why Samus is next to his name, did he win any earlier rounds with Samus?

But anyway, if we're looking at the Pika/Bayo matchup, it was 4-2 in ESAM's favour against Pinkfresh.
But ESAM lost to saj as well at CEO (2-1), and saj is a better bayo thank Pinkfresh right now, so there's more evidence that bayo beats Pika than the contrary.

 

[Aaron1997]

L9999 ESAM also went Samus vs Uno

 

[TDK]

Seagull placed higher than 6WX? Interesting.

 

[Yonder]

Xanadu 157 Results

1. PG ESAM
2. Pink Fresh
3. WadiRob
4. C3PO
5. Angel Cortez
5. Coney
7. Max Ketchum
7. Seagull Joe
9. 6WX
9. Tension
9. ZD
9. Zephyr
13. Viceroy
13. Average Joe
13. Jebb
13.Dexter

Who is WadiRob? Interesting.

 

[Das Koopa]

Jebb is a Lucas

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I understand we all disagree with his thoughts on Pikachu.

But can we not make constant jabs about ESAM?

Dude is still an amazing player and does a lot for he community.

Dude, I like Krillen a lot.

 

[Jexulus]

Dude, I like Krillen a lot.

Sadly, when people refer to Krillin nowadays, they're thinking of the Team Four Star version. I think the original version of Hercule is a more apt analogy to ESAM. He's still pretty incredible, and he'd stand out as such in a vacuum. But, there are simply others out there that have proven themselves with even greater feats.

And sometimes he puts his foot in his mouth. The greatest of kung-fu techniques.

 

[Nemesis561]

Who is WadiRob? Interesting.

A mewtwo rob player he is very good and has been doing very well lately in that region. If I'm not mistaken he won a xanadu recently

 

[|RK|]

Seagull placed higher than 6WX? Interesting.

Happened before, didn't it? I think when they played the ditto?

Seagull's been on the come up.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I would've thought short characters in general would really destroy Bayo, apparently not though. Shows what I know about the character.

I don't see why they would seeing as side b and dtilt are often her ways of starting combos and both are very close to the ground meaning that the short size doesn't give as much of an advantage on the ground. I could see it being a slight problem in the air but even then not that much of a problem.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Do people just assume that humanoid characters always struggle against short animals? Because that seems to be a common train of thought, even in instances where it isn't actually true in practice (ryu vs pika for instance)

 

[Megamang]

When I picture Pika beating Ryu, I picture a 'lame focused' pika using QA to ignore disadvantage, constant Thunderjolts to disrupt, and never really engaging Ryu. Ryu players say this is the best way to do it, and pika can be good at it. But we don't really see it. Ofc an aggro pika is just gonna get TRSK'd like an idiot. Im talking about a pika who can hit every QAC on each platform on battlefield, using this to never ever land. Just to fire tjolts until he can argue the risk reward is in his favor in one situation, attempt to start a ledgeguard sequence, then go back to QAC'ing away when Ryu gets his footing.



It goes deeper than durr multihits. A little. I promise.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Do people just assume that humanoid characters always struggle against short animals? Because that seems to be a common train of thought, even in instances where it isn't actually true in practice (ryu vs pika for instance)

Like how we were talking about Kirby recently and talking about some of his good high tier MUs and C. Falcon was mentioned and I noticed how a lot of people assumed it was bad because of crouch (I disagree, I don't think it's bad at all, I think it's annoying like every other Kirby MU not because of Kirby combos but because you hit each other and then try to avoid each other as much as possible. You don't play the game versus Kirby, you try to avoid playing the game because you can. At worst I think it's even because Falcon combos work well on kirby too, just like kirby combos work great on Falcon but neither have to approach or force their opponent to approach unless there's a stock/percent lead) which is really just way too simple. Kirby only has crouch and combos against Falcon, crouch is pretty easy to work around and he's too slow in the air and on the ground to truly threaten. It's not like Pikachu who can get too low to the ground to grab or hit just by doing a move or landing with an aerial, on top of having good movement, edge guarding, a projectile, and good combos.

 

[ぱみゅ]

But anyway, if we're looking at the Pika/Bayo matchup, it was 4-2 in ESAM's favour against Pinkfresh.
But ESAM lost to saj as well at CEO (2-1), and saj is a better bayo thank Pinkfresh right now, so there's more evidence that bayo beats Pika than the contrary.

This makes no sense.

It proves that ESAM is 2-2 on sets against Bayo, and nothing else.

 

[Phan7om]

What bothers me the most about discussions about Kirby's crouch "auto-winning" MUs is people disregard everything else about that character's strengths.

 

[Yikarur]

I think it's funny that we take some top player face-offs and decide match-ups on their results.

 

[KenMeister]

Nah, in higher levels of play players can find ways to either safely space around Kirby's crouch or condition them out of it. It certainly helps yeah, but they don't ever put a MU heavily in Kirby's favor or anything, just something that makes neutral slightly more annoying and that's it really. i.e. Characters who supposedly lose hard like WFT can safely space a bair on a crouching Kirby if they read the crouch attempt.

 

[Djent]

We should be thinking of matchup ratios in terms of distributions. The shape of any distribution is strongly influenced by "theory," but can also be shifted by tournament results as more of those come in. If there aren't many instances of a matchup being played at a high level, it is only natural that people will have wildly different ideas of how it should play out. But as more data comes in, opinions should converge to a degree. If this just sounds like a loose approximation of Bayesian reasoning...it's because it is.

 

[NairWizard]

In some ways, top player vs. top player matchups are the least indicative of how a matchup goes. The games almost always come down to player vs. player rather than character vs. character, just because this is a natural conclusion of mastery of the game--the more you play the more you can focus on the other player rather than your own character, as a lot of things that you used to have to think explicitly about become second-nature to you.

 

[Djent]

Does not having to focus on your character mean their attributes are less relevant to the outcome of the match, though? I think it depends heavily on what you mean.

I think musical improvisation provides a decent analogy. An expert musician won't have to think very hard about the notes (s)he is playing and can therefore focus on what the rest of the band/ensemble is doing. But even then the kinds of things (s)he plays are heavily shaped by the layout of the instrument. There are melodic and rhythmic ideas which are more common among pianists, horn players, guitarists, etc. by virtue of being easier on said instruments (and sometimes, not even possible on others!). You could say that improvisation is more dependent on collective interaction at the highest level of musicianship, and you'd be right. But I'm not sure if it's relatively more dependent on it than among mid-level musicians. There's just more going on in general: more nuanced interplay and more instrument-specific expression.