Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Strong-Arm]

Mr R only used Link for game 1 and it was pretty bad.

 

[Trunks159]

Yeah I was sitting here wondering why he wouldn't go Marth.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I almost believed that this was a disguised attempt to show Nintendo that Rosalina invalidates lower tiered characters, lol.



Mr. R apparently said this was a test run so that he didn't have to try it at EVO tho.

Like every other top tier? And top tiers don't invalidate lowered tiered characters, they invalidate low and some mid tiered characters. High tiers are fine.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Its been almost 2 months since the last patch, I wouldnt be surprised if we have one coming up around the corner.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People talking about Link and how good dabuz is ...

Me, I'm just flabbergasted about Scatt beating M2K 3-0 as if that was the easiest thing in the world to do. Crazy stuff.

 

[Ninety]

Six-stocked him, no less.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Lylat is such a goofy stage. Sometimes I wonder why it's legal.

Seriously, it would seem as though there is zero desire to go there. Speaking from my tournament experience, it almost feels like there's a soft-ban on the stage. No one feels the need to ban the stage because no one even picks it. The only people I see pick the stage are (a) lower-level players who don't know better, and (b) someone who is losing their set, praying to the god of jank that something ridiculous happens to swing momentum back in their favor.

Of course I can't generalize everyone, and there are people who do genuinely appreciate the stage, but I'd be willing to bet that the people who enjoy it are far outnumbered by those who don't.

Then again, I'm the guy who enjoyed going to Castle Siege e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶I̶'̶v̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶w̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶. Anyways, not suggesting us to ban the stage from the stage list but I think it's better as a counter-pick.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Doesn't matter if no one goes to the stage or not. If it's a stage that does not contain directly obtrusive stage elements that forces gameplay to come to a dead stop or cater to how the stage changes, then it has no reason not to be a legal stage.


I know some scenes have Lylat as a starter stage because they don't want Dreamland serving as a second Battlefield in the initial starter pick. It's a valid point IMO.

 

[juddy96]

Neokan Party 2, 120 entrants - Vélizy-Villacoublay, France

1) Ixis
2) Glutonny
3) Marcbri
4) Khanage
5) Elexiao
5) Pefo
7) S1
7) Greward
9) PikaForLife
9) Homika
9) Yoren
9) Rydle
13) Griffith
13) Deimos
13) Vanaheim
13) OursOuzbek

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Also, fun fact for WtFox commentators: strong hit of lemon never kills. Not even at 999%. Haven't tested with rage but I can't imagine that would kill either.

 

[Das Koopa]

watching sdgq, will look into WTFox 2's results in a moment

Rython is a Mac, didn't know if if the YT channel I found of "Rython" was the same dude but Eventhubs shows him as a Mac user

 

[Vhaltz]

When watching GFs for Neokan Party I saw many complaints for "spin to win" sonic, but honestly I found Ixis to be one of the most entertaining Sonics I've ever watched. He carefully picked his time to go in but outside of that he was aggressive in a smart way. Instead of the usual hit-and-run he dealt damage, extended combos, went for airdodge reads for bigger damage instead of getting lower damage bread and butter combos, and generally didn't let go of pressure. When I tried to describe to my girlfriend why I found his play so interesting what came to mind was "an aggressive ZSS player like Nairo picks up Sonic".

In the second set he was forced to play a lot more careful because he was constantly dying to rage Wario setups or similar, but you could still see that spindash hit-and-run play required a ton of mixups to avoid getting punished since Wario's aerial speed is very high. He stopped side B in front of and behind shield, jumped over shield, very rarely upB'd, and was on point with stopping side B charge and gradually getting closer, sometimes baiting an attack and sometimes outright getting a grab. His decisionmaking when under pressure was also quite amazing, at one point he avoided getting hit by waft in a tough situation w/ no jump by using neutral B to rise up and hit back to the stage, instead of using up B and easily getting trapped on the way down.

I was later told that Ixis didn't really do well in the US tournaments that he went to, but Sonic just legitimately felt like a really fun and complex character for one tournament, so I just wanted to share it.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Where can I find videos/replays of the tournament you guys are talking about?

I'm interested in seeing Mr. R's Link, Zero 3-0'ing M2k, and Scatt vs M2K

 

[|RK|]

Das Koopa Question about the tournament data - how many points has Sheik gotten from taking first place? This might be a total misunderstanding of your system, but from the large tournaments I've watched, Sheik is definitely always present... but rarely wins it all. So I wanted to know if she could have gotten that many points from primarily second-place finishes.

 

[Tetra-76]

When watching GFs for Neokan Party I saw many complaints for "spin to win" sonic, but honestly I found Ixis to be one of the most entertaining Sonics I've ever watched. He carefully picked his time to go in but outside of that he was aggressive in a smart way. Instead of the usual hit-and-run he dealt damage, extended combos, went for airdodge reads for bigger damage instead of getting lower damage bread and butter combos, and generally didn't let go of pressure. When I tried to describe to my girlfriend why I found his play so interesting what came to mind was "an aggressive ZSS player like Nairo picks up Sonic".

In the second set he was forced to play a lot more careful because he was constantly dying to rage Wario setups or similar, but you could still see that spindash hit-and-run play required a ton of mixups to avoid getting punished since Wario's aerial speed is very high. He stopped side B in front of and behind shield, jumped over shield, very rarely upB'd, and was on point with stopping side B charge and gradually getting closer, sometimes baiting an attack and sometimes outright getting a grab. His decisionmaking when under pressure was also quite amazing, at one point he avoided getting hit by waft in a tough situation w/ no jump by using neutral B to rise up and hit back to the stage, instead of using up B and easily getting trapped on the way down.

I was later told that Ixis didn't really do well in the US tournaments that he went to, but Sonic just legitimately felt like a really fun and complex character for one tournament, so I just wanted to share it.

The complaints were mostly from one guy, who I know gets pretty salty about France losing, lol. Pretty much everybody agrees that Ixis is one of the most fun Sonic players to watch, very technical, aggro, and creative, not unlike SGK. Even his ditto against Pefo earlier in the bracket was somehow pretty entertaining, they definitely showed that Sonic doesn't have to be played lame to be effective.

Here are some of the sets we had, if you guys want to check them out:

Grand Final - Ixis vs Glutonny

Losers Final - Glutonny vs Marcbri

Losers Semis - Khanage vs Marcbri

Winners Semis - Elexiao vs Glutonny

Winners Semis - Ixis vs Pefo

Losers R7 - Khanage vs Greward

More here!​

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAGIr55p4Z6y-OLaO9wayOj9rTLpVnTGb
Europe has a lot of amazing, albeit obscure players, with a ton of wacky characters you rarely see outside of maybe Japan, like Mega Man, Greninja, Pac-Man, Link, or Peach. It's also 3 stocks for the most part, which is especially interesting for characters like Wario or Sonic, who have to play very differently because of that.

We have a great scene, with talent in spades, and some very unique characters, definitely check us out! We're tired of being ignored by the rest of the world.

 

[FullMoon]

Is Wario vs Pac-Man a good MU for Pac? I found it odd that Elexiao switched to Pac when his struggle to kill likely meant Wario would have more opportunities to use Waft.

 

[blackghost]

do not reopen the conversation about lylat. the stage is legal and there are reasons to go there besides desperation.
im a bayo main and its probably her second best stage. its the one i get to the most becuase bf and toen and coty are banned a lot.
frankly the stage has been aroubd for over 8 years abd the stage got nerfes and people still arent happy. learn the stage. deal with the edges. abd the tilting isnt random its a long set pattern.

 

[Poisonous]

Is Wario vs Pac-Man a good MU for Pac? I found it odd that Elexiao switched to Pac when his struggle to kill likely meant Wario would have more opportunities to use Waft.

No, Zage has it as -1 in his MU chart and Reflex has it as +1 in his. It's generally considered to be Wario favor, an example of the MU at a good level is Tweek vs Koolaid at some KTAR where Tweek 3-0'd him.

 

[TDK]

How desperate was Mr. R to try Link over Sheik?

 

[ARGHETH]

How desperate was Mr. R to try Link over Sheik?

He wasn't desperate, he wanted to try playing Link before EVO.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Ixis winning a big french tournament, even though he kind of just drowned in US tours he went to.
Yeah, we're DEFINITLY good, care about us, we're top players!!!

Seriously tho, Europe's attempts at getting attention & trying to prove that they're some kind of underdogs with huge potential is starting to annoy me, especially when there's a fair amount of proofs of all kind that we're indeed below the top level of US & to some extent Japan, as well as the really talented guys of a continent/country: Mr.R in Netherlands, Hyuga & MKLeo in Mexico, who are all slightly above the rest of their country ( To a stretch, Regi and his G&W, undefeated in his region, and i'm quite faithful to Wonf's ability to do decent out of state, but that has to be proven ) :
- Beast's results speak for themselves: MVD's results were already dropping back then, and then comes his 4th place at Beast
- Let's talk about Ixis himself: He just won Neokan & is winning a fair amount of tours in his state. So what about out of state then? Wanna talk about that magnificent 65th place at Genesis 3? If he had more chances, i don't think he would have managed to get in any stacked top 8 with US & *** threats, and he's a contender for one of our best threats on EU scale.
- Anyone remember the Bayonetta days? Complaints about her dominating the lower level of play were kind of shown by some european tours, most notably: Albion. This tour in UK had 4 bayonettas in its Top 8, and the top German player, cyve, dropped the GF & the rest to Badr, who hadn't done much at all by the time of this tournament.

So yeah, i guess the " under " part of the word " underdog " is the thing that should mostly be remembered about Europe. Much like Australia, it's not that we're bad, not at all, but in most cases, there's always a better footage to watch & learn from. If i had to compare these to a known name, i'd say we're close to what SGKels may do: While we sometimes may be able to pull off some decent to nice placements here & there, the name of SGKels won't & shouldn't ring a bell when talking about the BEST Sonic.
Idk, maybe i'm too negative about Europe, but this feeling of seeing people trying so hard to raise us to the top of the mountain when, while not too far, almost none of our players will be able to reach it, i needed to share my feelings about it.

 

[sups48]

Can we please talk about how M2K one of the best clouds in the US if not the best lost again to Scatt this is the second time. He even tired to counter pick him using RosaLuma and got 3-0'd like I said before Cloud definitely loses to mega man this match up is starting to look 60-40 in mega man's favor.

Edit: M2K has lost 3 times to Scatt. Fusion 3, Smash n' Splash, and WTFOX 2 match-up inexperience shouldn't be a factor anymore.

 

[Pyr]

Only if we talk about the 500 unknowns that properly establish a full context in the match instead of jumping to definitive statements like "Cloud definitely loses! But I'll say it's 6:4 anyway because matchup ratios mean nothing anymore."

You know, like matchup experience (and inexperience) of the players, the why on the loss, the why on the win, what could of been done differently by M2K, player emotions, etc.

 

[sups48]

Only if we talk about the 500 unknowns that properly establish a full context in the match instead of jumping to definitive statements like "Cloud definitely loses! But I'll say it's 6:4 anyway because matchup ratios mean nothing anymore."

You know, like matchup experience (and inexperience) of the players, the why on the loss, the why on the win, what could of been done differently by M2K, player emotions, etc.

You would be right if it was just M2K because well M2K but, Komorikiri has had trouble with Kamemushi another top mega man player. Also i didn't say the match-up is 60-40 i said its starting to look like that. This hasn't happened once not twice its happened more then 3 times between the both of them and Komo has fought high level mega man before so its not even like they both have match-up inexperience.

You guys love to push the cloud has no bad match-up except sheik narrative for some reason.

 

[Djent]

MM beating Cloud is not at all a ridiculous suggestion if we're going by results. In addition to ScAtt's dominant record vs. M2K, Japanese Clouds also struggle against Kamemushi. However, one would expect characters with top-class dash to shield stats wouldn't lose that badly to a projectile-based character. I realize Cloud can't play a passive Limit-charging game, but he shouldn't really have to when he can approach. I can also see him giving MM difficulty recovering, though obviously he has the same trouble in return. In what area(s) does MM seriously outpace Cloud?

 

[Das Koopa]

Ixis winning a big french tournament, even though he kind of just drowned in US tours he went to.
Yeah, we're DEFINITLY good, care about us, we're top players!!!

Seriously tho, Europe's attempts at getting attention & trying to prove that they're some kind of underdogs with huge potential is starting to annoy me, especially when there's a fair amount of proofs of all kind that we're indeed below the top level of US & to some extent Japan, as well as the really talented guys of a continent/country: Mr.R in Netherlands, Hyuga & MKLeo in Mexico, who are all slightly above the rest of their country ( To a stretch, Regi and his G&W, undefeated in his region, and i'm quite faithful to Wonf's ability to do decent out of state, but that has to be proven ) :
- Beast's results speak for themselves: MVD's results were already dropping back then, and then comes his 4th place at Beast
- Let's talk about Ixis himself: He just won Neokan & is winning a fair amount of tours in his state. So what about out of state then? Wanna talk about that magnificent 65th place at Genesis 3? If he had more chances, i don't think he would have managed to get in any stacked top 8 with US & *** threats, and he's a contender for one of our best threats on EU scale.
- Anyone remember the Bayonetta days? Complaints about her dominating the lower level of play were kind of shown by some european tours, most notably: Albion. This tour in UK had 4 bayonettas in its Top 8, and the top German player, cyve, dropped the GF & the rest to Badr, who hadn't done much at all by the time of this tournament.

So yeah, i guess the " under " part of the word " underdog " is the thing that should mostly be remembered about Europe. Much like Australia, it's not that we're bad, not at all, but in most cases, there's always a better footage to watch & learn from. If i had to compare these to a known name, i'd say we're close to what SGKels may do: While we sometimes may be able to pull off some decent to nice placements here & there, the name of SGKels won't & shouldn't ring a bell when talking about the BEST Sonic.
Idk, maybe i'm too negative about Europe, but this feeling of seeing people trying so hard to raise us to the top of the mountain when, while not too far, almost none of our players will be able to reach it, i needed to share my feelings about it.

Worth pointing out that Serge took Mr. R to game 5 and was very close to eliminating him, and Mr. R getting eliminated in Mexico is what started the Mexico hype to start with. It seems pretty evident that Mexico is a strong region.

also canada > europe

 

[Locke 06]

MM beating Cloud is not at all a ridiculous suggestion if we're going by results. In addition to ScAtt's dominant record vs. M2K, Japanese Clouds also struggle against Kamemushi. However, one would expect characters with top-class dash to shield stats wouldn't lose that badly to a projectile-based character. I realize Cloud can't play a passive Limit-charging game, but he shouldn't really have to when he can approach. I can also see him giving MM difficulty recovering, though obviously he has the same trouble in return. In what area(s) does MM seriously outpace Cloud?

MM up air is very strong in the matchup, both transcendent and being a windbox messing with autocancel heights and timings. Not letting Cloud land or be comfortable on a platform (it does a lot of shield damage).

His punish on jab3/dtilt on shield (utilt) can be very strong, and rising BAir can combat falling aerials due to its speed.

PS: mu inexperience can still be a thing after 3 sets...

 

[Yikarur]

lol @looking at an EU tournament with europe's strongest regions germany/austria and france and netherlands best players absent (istudy, Mr-R, Phogos) and complain about the "under level".
Ixis didn't get Top8 at Beast 6. I didn't expect him to win Neokan at all. He probably had a really good day.

Europe lacks match-up knowledge because we don't have all the characters represented. Good Sonics are rare and I guess missing MU Knowledge about Sonic is a factor. (like a Rosalina no one heard before got Top8 at Beast). Most players are overwhelmed by Ixis aggressive Sonic playstyle while Ixis probably lost to players in the US who abused that play style because it's not optimal.

also canada > europe

I would bet money that europe with his full force would beat Canada in a Crew Battle

 

[Das Koopa]

I would bet money that europe with his full force would beat Canada in a Crew Battle

i dunno, I think a team of

Ally
Holy
SGKels
Alphicans
Venom/Chrim Foish

could probably take on Europe

What would a European team look like?

Mr. R
iStudying
S1-14
Phogos
Cyve

Maybe Sodrek or Ixis in there?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Considering I only recognize the first two Europe names there...

Ya I'd say Canada would probably win it. Particularly if Europe sucks against Sonic because they got SGKels in there.

And then the US just laughs at both regions and we kinda hang our head in shame in the corner.

 

[HoSmash4]

Ixis has been one of the most consistent players in Europe for the past year.

Won all but one london monthly, 1st neokan, 4th Albion and 3rd DBZ7
Proud of him.

i agree Europe is a level below Americas too but there's no good complaining about our level.

 

[NairWizard]

PS: mu inexperience can still be a thing after 3 sets...

Or even after 500 sets. Experience isn't just about having played the matchup a ton. Experience is about labbing the matchup and coming up with the right approach to it. If you play a matchup over and over and over again but keep using the same approach every single time what have you really gained by playing it?

Practice smarter, not harder.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wanna talk about that magnificent 65th place at Genesis 3?

Yeah, we can talk about it if you want. 'Cause 65th at G3 actually sounds like a pretty respectable result if you think about it. He did beat Dan who is one of the better midwest Marios I hear and he lost to Nick Riddle taking a game off somebody who was known back then to be a Sonic-slayer, in a disadvantaged matchup. Players he tied with include such people as: Ryo, M2K, RichBrown, Regi, MJG and Ryuga and he outplaced Pink Fresh, JJRockets, Zenyou, Alphicans, TLTC, Nasubi, Dath, Seibrik, 2ManyCooks and Sol. I'd wager that outside of SoCal and Tristate he'd be almost certainly be ranked top 5 in most, if not all, PRs available in the USA and Ixis has also improved significantly as a player since G3.

tl;dr Ixis is a bad example to illustrate your point because he's evidently a high-level player with the capability to perform well on the international stage.

 

[PK Gaming]

i dunno, I think a team of

Ally
Holy
SGKels
Alphicans
Venom/Chrim Foish

could probably take on Europe

What would a European team look like?

Mr. R
iStudying
S1-14
Phogos
Cyve

Maybe Sodrek or Ixis in there?

You're forgetting one more Canadian

Myself, Ottawa's greatest ♪

Spoiler

Not but for real, i'd probably add JPeds. That guy is an animal

 

[DanGR]

MM beating Cloud is not at all a ridiculous suggestion if we're going by results. In addition to ScAtt's dominant record vs. M2K, Japanese Clouds also struggle against Kamemushi. However, one would expect characters with top-class dash to shield stats wouldn't lose that badly to a projectile-based character. I realize Cloud can't play a passive Limit-charging game, but he shouldn't really have to when he can approach. I can also see him giving MM difficulty recovering, though obviously he has the same trouble in return. In what area(s) does MM seriously outpace Cloud?

If you can nail him down, Cloud is quite susceptible to shield pressure. Even though he has a quick dash to shield, his OoS options are subpar.
-No fast upsmash or very usable upb. Climbzard is f7 but has incredibly high risk for the reward.
-Can't counter-poke with dtilt or a quick rising, safe aerial. Ftilt can work but is kinda slow on startup.
-His grab doesn't have much guaranteed reward, but I guess the positioning can be nice. You're not going to be grabbing OoS against Megaman of all characters anyways.

Ftilt and jab are probably his best options, but even then ftilt is f9(!) and his jab2 is susceptible to shieldgrabs.

---

Where's the burst range OoS to close the gap and threaten space safely at the same time? It's just not there in a truly immediate form. There's windup or some prep time on his safer, more usable attacks. He has to manuveur his way much more carefully around the projectile wall than someone like Sheik who more safely, more immediately, and more directly threatens a big zone in front of her with forward-air. Other characters that do well against him in neutral use their speed (airspeed often times) to get in and beat Megaman with their better CQC. Neither of these are Cloud's forte.

Cloud does best when he can dance around mid range and force a lot of shield use just by jumping, dashing around, and staying mobile in general. Megaman looks at that gameplan and laughs. He loves mid range zoning and will use that space to spam pellets and force you to shield.

Not to mention MM's a terror when you're offstage. We know how much Cloud enjoys that.

 

[Yikarur]

i dunno, I think a team of

Ally
Holy
SGKels
Alphicans
Venom/Chrim Foish

could probably take on Europe

What would a European team look like?

Mr. R
iStudying
S1-14
Phogos
Cyve

Maybe Sodrek or Ixis in there?

I'd put Ixis and Sodrek over istudy and S1. But it would be a very close, arbitrary and subjective decision overall. I think that would be a really good battle.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Regarding NA vs EU: Let's start by looking at some facts. Smash Wii U has sold around 2.77 million copies in NA, 1.03 Europe, 0.78 Japan. Europe is much larger than Japan, both geographically and demographically, yet just a few hundred thousand more have bought Smash 4. This gives Japan a huge edge, since it's most more likely you'll face another good Smash 4 player, and local scenes are likely to be stronger. Furthermore, I suspect it's easier and cheaper to travel within Japan than it is to travel from, say, Sweden to Spain.

As for NA, NA has fewer people yet have sold almost three times as much than Europe. It makes sense for the NA scene to be stronger.

I'm just happy I have a local scene where I live. Lots of Swedish cities don't even have one.

 

[Jamurai]

Pressing a Jump input when a midair jump cannot come out will cause your character to footstool an opponent if they are in range during the next ten frames. However, Ledge Jumps don't allow you to buffer your next input.
Because all Ledge Jumps last 12 frames, you can only avoid a buffered footstool if you input an action exactly on Frame 13. The footstool timing is made easier by the fact that you cannot footstool an opponent who is invincible on the ledge.
If the victim gets footstooled and doesn't move away, they will hit the ground almost immediately, allowing you to get into position for a strong punish. If they do move away, they will still be able to attempt a recovery, but they will not have ledge invincibility if they grab the ledge while coming back.
Because most players on the ledge react to an opponent getting close with a buffered ledge option, dropping to the ledge while holding Down to avoid grabbing it, then double-jumping can bait out the response for an easy footstool. If they wait, ledge trumping becomes a viable punish. Buffering a Ledge Roll is punishable on reaction by many characters, and Ledge Attack is pretty risky.

If I understand this right, these characters would find this almost impossible to utilise:



Because you need to run out of jumps to use the ten-frame footstool window. Zard and Pits less so, of course.

Really cool find. Looking forward to seeing high-/top-level players deliberately using this in tournament eventually.

 

[blackghost]

Regarding NA vs EU: Let's start by looking at some facts. Smash Wii U has sold around 2.77 million copies in NA, 1.03 Europe, 0.78 Japan. Europe is much larger than Japan, both geographically and demographically, yet just a few hundred thousand more have bought Smash 4. This gives Japan a huge edge, since it's most more likely you'll face another good Smash 4 player, and local scenes are likely to be stronger. Furthermore, I suspect it's easier and cheaper to travel within Japan than it is to travel from, say, Sweden to Spain.

As for NA, NA has fewer people yet have sold almost three times as much than Europe. It makes sense for the NA scene to be stronger.

I'm just happy I have a local scene where I live. Lots of Swedish cities don't even have one.

amount sold has an inpact yes but it really comes down to the players themselves. in street fighter 4 japan was dominant depspite europe and us having higher sales. japan just learned the gane better and had better players.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lolwut.

Japan has insane population density and the most active arcade scene on the face of the Earth by FAR.

Same reason tristate is strong in Smash. Alot of people squished together all grinding together.