Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

Anyone who seriously thinks that any universal movement option is useless needs to reevaluate his understanding of the game.

 

[Ulevo]

Most characters just don't get that much out of perfect pivoting.

I really disagree with this.

Void has demonstrated its uses with Sheik. So has Larry Lurr with Fox. So has Leo with Cloud. Dabuz has even done it with Rosalina. There are characters who's metas are actually largely dependent on its use, like Little Mac and Greninja, because of how good their options are out of it. There are also characters, like Meta Knight, who get a lot of mileage out of using it as a movement tool even if they have no good perfect pivot techniques.

People who are not attempting to perfect this technique because they think its relatively useless are stagnating their play. And if you want to talk about consistency, it is not that difficult to do in tournament without making errors compared to many other techniques, i.e. ledge trumping.

 

[PK Gaming]

I really disagree with this.

Void has demonstrated its uses with Sheik. So has Larry Lurr with Fox. So has Leo with Cloud. Dabuz has even done it with Rosalina. There are characters who's metas are actually largely dependent on its use, like Little Mac and Greninja, because of how good their options are out of it. There are also characters, like Meta Knight, who get a lot of mileage out of using it as a movement tool even if they have no good perfect pivot techniques.

People who are not attempting to perfect this technique because they think its relatively useless are stagnating their play. And if you want to talk about consistency, it is not that difficult to do in tournament without making errors compared to many other techniques, i.e. ledge trumping.

Well ****. Point taken.

Stagnancy should always be avoided

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I don't think at all that perfect pivots are useless. It's just that they're not some magical technique that will make characters go up significantly in tiers. They're a good defensive mixup option with some nice spacing potential. Characters with ****ty spacing options will still have ****ty spacing options, and characters with godly spacing options reap their typically godly spacing rewards with a slight positional retreat.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I don't think at all that perfect pivots are useless. It's just that they're not some magical technique that will make characters go up significantly in tiers. They're a good defensive mixup option with some nice spacing potential. Characters with ****ty spacing options will still have ****ty spacing options, and characters with godly spacing options reap their typically godly spacing rewards with a slight positional retreat.

It doesn't just have to be defensive though. PP Utilt with Little Mac is a fantastic approach option when properly spaced (it's pretty good with Cloud too), not to mention PP toward your opponent and ftilt, something I rather like doing with Mac, Marth, and Sheik. And when you add other movement options into it like dash dances, extended dash dances, regular running, and rolling it becomes a great tool for mix ups or catching landings. And while I don't think it will make most characters better tier list wise, I can honestly say I think that Little Mac would be undeniably bottom tier if these movement options like perfect pivoting and extended dash dancing didn't exist. Mac gets some good true combos only if he perfect pivots, and Sheik ftilt chains wouldn't be nearly as good if she couldn't perfect pivot. I'd say those are pretty useful and would definitely encourage others to utilize it. (It's really not that hard to get down)

 

[Nobie]

I'm actually legit worried that perfect pivoting could hurt my hands and my controller, which is why I'm hesitant to devote too much time to it, but then again I'm not competing at the highest level.

 

[verbatim]

Perfect Pivoting isn't ultra prevalent because at the low through high level play and even past that practicing other things usually will bring bigger rewards.

It's also worth noting that not every character benefits equally from them. Once you're winning money consistently you might want to look into learning pp combo's w/ fox/villager/Greninja/Kirby/Sheik, but if you're playing as Luigi or Sonic someone else without a tilt the utility drops off pretty significantly.

Also shoutouts to Leo for being the only player I've seen to utilize pp as a spacing tool in neutral.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

With proper grip, wrist/finger stretching, and rest days from smash playing, you would have to work pretty hard to give yourself a hand injury even from perfect pivots. This becomes more problematic at top level when you play multiple games in just one day and the room for execution error becomes increasingly small, (which warrants more dedicated practice time and therefore more risk of injury).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm actually legit worried that perfect pivoting could hurt my hands and my controller, which is why I'm hesitant to devote too much time to it, but then again I'm not competing at the highest level.

Bidou tho.

And PP only appears defensive because people ain't using the bidou setup. Makes PPing far more Versatile.

And I wished every character had bigger hitboxes. My preference.

 

[Amadeus9]

PPing really isn't that rough on your hands. And it's not really all that hard either once you've practice it, specifically. Which is something I think players should do! Spacing with perfect pivot the way Leo does is IMO the future of the tech and rather soon anyone NOT doing it will be gimped. Not to the same level as not being able to wavedash in melee, but gimped.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

If you can twiddle your thumbs, you can perfect pivot.
Twiddling your thumbs actually requires more motion than perfect pivoting..

 

[FullMoon]

I keep meaning to practice PP and I can sort of consistently do it to the right but I can't do it well to the left

It's a pretty good option for Greninja though, PP F-Tilt and Up-Tilt are great.

 

[Y2Kay]

There's nothing perfect about "perfect" pivoting guys, lol.

 

[san.]

Ike-centric, but here:

I learned a few personal tricks to help me be a bit more consistent with them.
How to perfect pivot: Dash 1 way and quickly flick the other way.

Tips for perfect pivoting more easily:

• -Aim for speed rather than precision with the flick. The faster you are, the more time your control stick has to return to neutral. Do it as fast as you can without thinking much about it. Don't worry about your controller (+1 place at a tournament can cover the cost of a new controller )
  
• -Try to hold the controller the same way as you do normally, even if it makes it tougher to learn. That makes it easier to perfect pivot on the fly once you get it down.
  
• -Be prepared to do something else if you mess up (you end up dashing). I like to roll, fox trot, dash dance, or jump if I mess up. This is also why empty perfect pivot is usually superior if you aren't aiming to get an attack out as soon as possible.
  
• -The more you do it, the more comfortable you are with it. Try doing it randomly in matches then try aiming for specific perfect pivots as you get more comfortable. Expect to mess up sometimes.

Common perfect pivot options:

PP away, front is to the opponent

• -Empty PP away, react to opponent. Least committal option, need to be good enough where you can focus on the opponent rather than yourself.
  
• -PP away into dtilt. Good against aerial approaches and if you were spaced against an opponents dash attack/dash grab already. Less laggy alternative to a normal pivot grab and pivot ftilt
  
• -PP away into shield/spotdodge/roll/etc. Similar to the first, but commit to a defensive action for speed.
  
• -PP away into utilt/ftilt. Committal, need to be sure of your inputs. Slightly more optimal than walking, but there are more practical options. Use if this happens to be the best reactionary option at the time.

PP forward, back is to the opponent.

• -Empty PP forward. Still very non-committtal. It's best to combine this with another movement option like an empty turnaround, dash, or turnaround + attack/shield appropriately depending on the distance to your opponent.
• -PP forward into C-stick (tilt) ftilt - It's alright, but technical for the medium-low reward. It's convenient that tilt stick makes it so you don't have to turnaround. Cannot angle ftilt with this method.
• -PP forward into turnaround jab/dtilt - Very good at ranges slightly beyond your ftilt range where you want to press a safer offensive option instead of a defensive one. There will be a small delay depending on how good you are with the turnround.
  
• -PP forward into shield - This is useful vs. taller characters in order to get a nice OoS bair on them. It's practical for those with good OoS bairs because the slide helps push against stronger attacks.
  
• -PP forward into utilt - Great for some characters, mediocre-bad for others.

 

[Shaya]

Characters with really god amazing ftilts really love PP forward into reverse ftilt.

It's my favourite thing to do. Especially on Roy, Marth and ZSS. With tilt stick it can be done very quickly and it supplements dash attacking/grabbing/dash aerials in a lot of situations, with a safer/longer ranged tool.
Actually basically everyone with a poking ftilt. PP Ftilt on the likes of Diddy (such an underused move, it has the exact same start up and safety data as a rising AC fair except with 30-40% more range - Diddy can't weave in the air anyway so that's mute) and Sonic? really really good. G&W, Falco, Cloud and Donkey Kong. I don't play Mac but obviously he would really take a big slice of the cake for it's use.

Ftilts are super important moves. Pivot ftilts are generally underused as it is, but them being the easiest and safest 'correct facing' option for most of the cast out of a PP just screams meta relevance and is one of the strong reasons one would go for tilt stick over smash stick. Obviously if you could input turn around dtilt, jab, etc reliably that would be a huge thing for one's game play, but that may never become a consistent thing (something something bidou perhaps), while reverse ftilts are here NOW, WAITING FOR YOU TO TAKE THEM.

Oh yeah, how could I forget Sheik? Not too many combo ftilts out of there, but consistently chaining them on a fast faller / it catching people trying to jump away so they have to keep taking more ftilts? super priceless.

Also PPing allows one to do reverse up smashes faster than one could normally do so with the rar JC version. The Jump cancel is what allows a lot of characters to have a bit of a sliding motion, but food for thought. Also the MK's have already pointed out, PP bair is allowing throw follow ups that are otherwise more technically demanding / not possible with raring.
Also as PP jumps are from 'neutral', you won't get locked into initial momentum of the direction you were dashing in (this is really crap for characters with poor aerial acceleration: Roy), so for a lot of chars you'll be able to do retreating aerials out of PPs that would be weaving considerably less from a RAR.

Not all characters gain much out of PP (Dedede :< Ganon:<, Robin :<)
But still, it's soooo good and otherwise almost universally applicable that you should learn to do it anyway.

 

[williamsga555]

Yeah, Dedede doesn't get a whole lot from it.

PP u-tilt can be a sneaky anti-air, though it's a bit too committal to really be abused that often (it's fully intangible while active, though, and really disjointed).

Speaking of, actually, it's something I'd like to see more Dedede's try to work into their gameplan. Up tilt is still a pretty good move from Brawl (though it's considerable worse, mind). Kills deceptively early, and as I just mentioned, it's both heavily disjointed AND intangible while active (including his arm out front!). Covers platform space pretty well to boot. The endlag is disgusting, though, and it's juuuust a bit too slow to throw out on reaction to speedier approaches, but if you know someone's planning to land right on top of you, it's an option that should be respected.

Also, to keep in line with that, f-tilt is also pretty rad. Move still commands tons of space in a game where that doesn't really exist for the most part (Smash 4 hitboxes are usually tiny, especially grounded ones), and is pretty beastly at covering ledge getups (covers every option except for jump/drop+jump with an airdodge). Has linking problems (especially with rage, which Dedede is almost always in) and is laughably unsafe on shield, but it completely eats up linear shorthop approaches and landings.

Jab 1 is the worst jab in the game, though. Why does Jab 2, such a beautiful move, have to be stuck behind that horrible pre-requisite? Tragic.

 

[Locke 06]

Characters with really god amazing ftilts really love PP forward into reverse ftilt.

It's my favourite thing to do. Especially on Roy, Marth and ZSS. With tilt stick it can be done very quickly and it supplements dash attacking/grabbing/dash aerials in a lot of situations, with a safer/longer ranged tool.
Actually basically everyone with a poking ftilt. PP Ftilt on the likes of Diddy (such an underused move, it has the exact same start up and safety data as a rising AC fair except with 30-40% more range - Diddy can't weave in the air anyway so that's mute) and Sonic? really really good. G&W, Falco, Cloud and Donkey Kong. I don't play Mac but obviously he would really take a big slice of the cake for it's use.

Ftilts are super important moves. Pivot ftilts are generally underused as it is, but them being the easiest and safest 'correct facing' option for most of the cast out of a PP just screams meta relevance and is one of the strong reasons one would go for tilt stick over smash stick. Obviously if you could input turn around dtilt, jab, etc reliably that would be a huge thing for one's game play, but that may never become a consistent thing (something something bidou perhaps), while reverse ftilts are here NOW, WAITING FOR YOU TO TAKE THEM.

Oh yeah, how could I forget Sheik? Not too many combo ftilts out of there, but consistently chaining them on a fast faller / it catching people trying to jump away so they have to keep taking more ftilts? super priceless.

Also PPing allows one to do reverse up smashes faster than one could normally do so with the rar JC version. The Jump cancel is what allows a lot of characters to have a bit of a sliding motion, but food for thought. Also the MK's have already pointed out, PP bair is allowing throw follow ups that are otherwise more technically demanding / not possible with raring.
Also as PP jumps are from 'neutral', you won't get locked into initial momentum of the direction you were dashing in (this is really crap for characters with poor aerial acceleration: Roy), so for a lot of chars you'll be able to do retreating aerials out of PPs that would be weaving considerably less from a RAR.

Not all characters gain much out of PP (Dedede :< Ganon:<, Robin :<)
But still, it's soooo good and otherwise almost universally applicable that you should learn to do it anyway.

Turnaround>turnaround is not instant, which is why you do not see PP forward>turnaround up/dtilt/jab. PP is also beneficial as it interrupts crouches/dtilt animations while walking does not.

PP forward turnaround fsmash is good as well.

As good as PP's are, they have limits as a neutral movement tool. PP>walk would be nice, but the game says no.

 

[san.]

Not all characters gain much out of PP (Dedede :< Ganon:<, Robin :<)
But still, it's soooo good and otherwise almost universally applicable that you should learn to do it anyway.

I think our knowledge of perfect pivot options is very limited until we start to use them more in matches.

I just buckled down and taught myself how to apply it in neutral for the past few hours after labbing for a higher perfect pivot success rate, and I'm finding a bunch of things for myself already. A lot of it is too nuanced to explain easily with character-specific options, so I can see why a lot of tactics/ situational applications using them aren't well known.

I'm finding a lot of mileage combining perfect pivots with combining standard movement options before and after the pivot as well as a decent amount of uses for perfect pivot into shield in both directions.

First impressions actually exceeded my expectations. Before, my success rate with perfect pivots was 50% at best, so I wasn't able to delve very deep at all with how they're used.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean, Charizard loves reverse tilts.

If Charizard can get mileage out of them, then anyone can.

 

[Amadeus9]

I think our knowledge of perfect pivot options is very limited until we start to use them more in matches.

I just buckled down and taught myself how to apply it in neutral for the past few hours after labbing for a higher perfect pivot success rate, and I'm finding a bunch of things for myself already. A lot of it is too nuanced to explain easily with character-specific options, so I can see why a lot of tactics/ situational applications using them aren't well known.

I'm finding a lot of mileage combining perfect pivots with combining standard movement options before and after the pivot as well as a decent amount of uses for perfect pivot into shield in both directions.

First impressions actually exceeded my expectations. Before, my success rate with perfect pivots was 50% at best, so I wasn't able to delve very deep at all with how they're used.

That's really fantastic! My level of play isn't anywhere near as high as I would like it to be, but I can consistently perfect pivot from end to end to end of the stage without making a mistake because I've practiced it pretty religiously for just about 6 months. The actual wealth of simple movement tech in this game is unfortunately very overlooked, as is each individuals ability to practice and improve with them. I hope that now, as the level of play seen in Smash 4 communities at national and local levels continuously improves (like seriously, I can't believe how far my own region has come in the past year), we will see more people pushing their skill to the next level, and constantly develop on character metagame.

An issue I think people have w/ tech in this game in particular, is that tech in this game is very balanced, and rarely contradicts the basic rules of the game's mechanics. You lack things like wavelanding onto platforms, DACUS, etc. What is left, however, I really believe leaves a lot of room for nuance within the mechanics we do have, techs are less overwhelming subversion, and more subtle supplementation or enhancement. Little things you can do that make your play slightly more efficient. If it's all put together? That sounds like a game I want to play and be a part of. And hopefully be there at the forefront to partake in! So much is still so exciting and new about this game. I definitely think there is reason to be enthusiastic overall about this sort of thing.

Oh and yeah Shaya mentioned some throw tech with MK that I'm not sure was actually mentioned here explicitly... Dthrow perfect pivot bair fast fall w/ missed tech is guaranteed lock; with tech it's still a tech chase situation into a dash attack or regrab, it's pretty ****ing awesome and labbing of it and similar things has consumed most of my free time for past 2 weeks. It actually ****ing makes my life

 

[Das Koopa]

though it's a bit too committal to really be abused that often

Dedede in a nutshell.

At least he doesn't have a chaingrab, I guess?

 

[Sinister Slush]

I don't think Yoshi can get anything out of reverse Ftilts due to the Brawl to Smash 4 transition gave us 10 more frames of endlag. Difference with Charizard and Yoshi's, granted 4 frames faster (though nothing to boast about), it doesn't have the range Charizard's ftilt does nor does it have the chance to kill from maybe bad DI on the opponents part like Charizard's either.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] the only real counterpick choice is... The one guy with the big sword.

People still believe this myth?

Cloud cannot reasonably cover the Sheik matchup in any way. If your main's worst matchup happens to be Sheik and it's her that you pick a secondary up for then picking up Cloud is 100% useless to you. As a Fox player, for instance, you have absolutely no incentive to pick up Cloud as your secondary. Mewtwo is a much better choice in that case. I wish more players would start counterpicking with Mewtwo in general though.

People also seem strangely unaware of the powerful Luigi counterpick who allows you to deal with such difficult matchups to cover as Diddy Kong and Fox in addition to having a good matchup against Mario. Cloud is by no means the absolute go-to option when you choose a secondary, though there's no denying that he's the best overall.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

PP Jab is a good option for Yoshi. Not much range but since jab 1 can lead into usmash and fsmash, it can catch people off guard.

I imagine PP egg lay is godly and makes up for Yoshi's pathetic pivot grab.

 

[|RK|]

People still believe this myth?

Cloud cannot reasonably cover the Sheik matchup in any way. If your main's worst matchup happens to be Sheik and it's her that you pick a secondary up for then picking up Cloud is 100% useless to you. As a Fox player, for instance, you have absolutely no incentive to pick up Cloud as your secondary. Mewtwo is a much better choice in that case. I wish more players would start counterpicking with Mewtwo in general though.

People also seem strangely unaware of the powerful Luigi counterpick who allows you to deal with such difficult matchups to cover as Diddy Kong and Fox in addition to having a good matchup against Mario. Cloud is by no means the absolute go-to option when you choose a secondary, though there's no denying that he's the best overall.

I agree that Cloud isn't the best counterpick to Sheik.

It also seems that Cloud's Sheik weaknesses is being a little overstated when talking about his viability. Yes, he loses to her, but that doesn't make him any less than the best counterpick character in the game. There's no one else (as far as we know) that gives him that level of trouble. And if your Sheik weaknesses is 60:40 or less, you still might want to play it out. Cloud covers every other character. One losing MU doesn't change that.

EDIT: Although, I have to wonder who worries about Sheik that much these days such that they need a secondary. Ganondorf?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Since we're on the topic of sheik...

Sheik used to lose no matchups at all. Then 1.1.6 happened and she became less of a problem.

What matchups does she lose now, if any at all? Going purely off of results it seems like top level Marios have been doing pretty well against top level Sheiks. That godly combo breaking nair, amazing frame data and mobility, and of course his infamous upsmash all probably make that matchup even. When your opponent struggles at killing but you have a button that beats out their aerials and kills off the top, that's a pretty significant advantage.

Aside from that I think sheik's matchups are all probably still really good theoretically.

 

[Justinian]

I agree that Cloud isn't the best counterpick to Sheik.

It also seems that Cloud's Sheik weaknesses is being a little overstated when talking about his viability. Yes, he loses to her, but that doesn't make him any less than the best counterpick character in the game. There's no one else (as far as we know) that gives him that level of trouble. And if your Sheik weaknesses is 60:40 or less, you still might want to play it out. Cloud covers every other character. One losing MU doesn't change that.

EDIT: Although, I have to wonder who worries about Sheik that much these days such that they need a secondary. Ganondorf?

Sheik is one of Greninja's most notably difficult matchups, and is also hard for Fox and Sonic.

 

[soniczx123]

Sheik is one of Greninja's most notably difficult matchups, and is also hard for Fox and Sonic.

It's not hard for Sonic anymore since the needle nerf and lack of throw confirms. Sonic can build rage more easily and kill earlier.

 

[Djent]

Sheik could maybe use a secondary for ///. I don't see any of those MUs being better than even for her, and even if they are she might struggle on a player vs. player basis. An unorthodox character who covers several (all?) of these is...Villager. Mewtwo and Diddy seem to struggle against short characters with strong mid-range projectile games. I'd argue Sonic does to an extent as well. Komorikiri used to lose to Ranai all the time, and now KEN has been struggling with Duck Hunt. See a pattern? The only one I'm not sure about is Lucario, but I have a hard time seeing him winning the matchup if Mewtwo doesn't. So yeah, maybe this is worth a try?

 

[Y2Kay]

Sheik is one of Greninja's most notably difficult matchups, and is also hard for Fox and Sonic.

Sheik really isn't that bad anymore. 45:55 for greninja. Definitely worse for fox than greninja.

 

[Luco]

People still believe this myth?

Cloud cannot reasonably cover the Sheik matchup in any way. If your main's worst matchup happens to be Sheik and it's her that you pick a secondary up for then picking up Cloud is 100% useless to you. As a Fox player, for instance, you have absolutely no incentive to pick up Cloud as your secondary. Mewtwo is a much better choice in that case. I wish more players would start counterpicking with Mewtwo in general though.

People also seem strangely unaware of the powerful Luigi counterpick who allows you to deal with such difficult matchups to cover as Diddy Kong and Fox in addition to having a good matchup against Mario. Cloud is by no means the absolute go-to option when you choose a secondary, though there's no denying that he's the best overall.

And if you *do* decide to use a lower tiered character even with Cloud as your secondary, you still run into problems versus that tiny section of the cast who does well vs Cloud and probably your mid/low tier main and are still solo viable.

*coughcoughthisincludesninjascoughcough*

What I'm trying to say isn't that Cloud beats everyone, and this paragraph (perhaps unclearly) is trying to get at that. What I'm trying to say is that this game feels more unbalanced than it is a true CP war. If there's only a handful of viable solo picks and then really only a handful of viable secondary picks, is the game really that much more balanced?

I dunno if this is me not thinking clearly but it's kinda like, what reason is there to use Wario as a character when his solo viably outclassed by many others and secondary outclassed by many others? This question feels like it can be asked for 80% of the cast. You COULD, in theory, use Wario and Cloud and maybe Mewtwo or Luigi (I agree these are other good CP characters)... But then you could also just main Mewtwo or Luigi and secondary Cloud, or vice versa.

This question applied to characters in the solo viable meta, but it felt less damning because you actually DID see low tiers used as CPs. Now there are two or three better ones that cover a billion more MUs and probably oppress your low tier CP anyway. If Anti got into a CP war with Dabuz, and he brings out Cloud and Dabuz brought out Olimar... Do we really expect Olimar to have been the practical choice, even if Dabuz were to win with him? Does it really mean anything for Olimar?

I might just be tired and complaining about characters being generally better still. It just feels somehow worse off now that the CP meta feels more dominated now somehow.

 

[san.]

There are multiple reasons to second characters that lie beyond MUs/playing Smash Pokemon. For instance, what if you are blind picked? If you have a niche secondary, that character is unusable for the first game. You are in trouble the more well-rounded the opponent's secondaries are.

Other reasons to use secondaries may include:

-CPing Stages.
Some characters are dominant on certain stages while others aren't. Someone could have a DK/Rosalina secondary for Town & City or a zoner for FD/Duck Hunt. You could lure your opponent to counterpick a stage that is great for your secondary.

-CPing Playstyles
This can be split up in two ways. On one hand, you may want a secondary that plays very similarly to your main or is easy for you to understand as a player. Dabuz for instance has an Olimar due to so many years with previous games and having an affinity walling people out.

On the other hand, you might want to secondary a character that plays completely opposite of your main. This might help you become more well-rounded as a player and get used to playing under dynamic circumstances. You could also be losing player vs player, and having 2 fast+wild or 2 slow characters may not help as much, benefiting more from a change-of-pace character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OK, let's take a quick look into secondaries.

Spoiler

- Mewtwo is the character she has the worst results against
- Sonic, Rosalina and Mario are characters that regularly beat her
- Lucario *can* be a problem but isn't her main concern

-> : arguably the best character for the specific task of dealing with Mewtwo; top 3 character; always good to have in your pocket;
-> : may actually have favorable matchups against *all* the characters Sheik can struggle against;
-> : possibly beats Mewtwo + Rosalina, does fine against Sonic probably; can catch people offguard;
-> : odd counter that has proven to do well specifically against Mewtwo; catches people offguard; for very advanced players only;
-> : not specifically good against Mewtwo or Mario - only against Sonic and Rosalina;

Spoiler

- It's questionable whether he loses *any* matchup
- If he does it's likely against oddballs like Luigi and Megaman
- Projectile campers with small hurtboxes are annoying for him [DHD, Olimar, ...]
- Sheik, Fox, Sonic and Mario can be difficult and useful to have a secondary character for

-> : covers most of Diddy's hard matchups pretty nicely [Luigi, DHD, Olimar, Fox, Sonic] and does solidly against Megaman and Mario but fails to cover Sheik whatsoever in case it's needed;
-> : none of Diddy's harder matchups are among the ones Mewtwo likely loses except the unlikely DHD / Olimar pick;
-> : reliable but somewhat difficult to play as a secondary;

Spoiler

- Gets dunked on by Sheik

-> : does well against Sheik;

Spoiler

- Sheik is the biggest concern
- Being able to cover Ryu and Rosalina gets bonus points
- Covering Luigi is optional unless more people start using him as a secondary
- Cloud is annoying but manageable

-> : Covers Sheik and Luigi and can handle Ryu, Cloud and Rosalina;

Spoiler

- It's all about covering Diddy!

-> : Good pick against Diddy and covers Fox/Pikachu who give ZSS a hard time;

Spoiler

- Rosalina is his most consistent counter
- ZSS tends to win a lot against him, Sonic does as well
- Luigi is known to have the advantage against his brother

-> : Deals with all of Mario's woes except the not very common ZSS pick whom Mario doesn't strictly need a secondary for;
-> : Best suited to deal with the specific task of covering the Rosalina matchup;

Spoiler

- Cloud, ZSS and Rosalina are his biggest issues
- May need something in his pocket that can handle Ike

-> : Covers Cloud perfectly and works against ZSS, Rosalina and Ike just fine;
-> : Almost as good a pick as Sheik if you can tolerate Cloud dittos and easier to play than her;

So the way I see it Sheik only really cares about covering Mewtwo, Diddy has to decide between Sheik, Cloud and Mewtwo as a secondary and ZSS can make great use of a Luigi pocket. Meanwhile Cloud and Fox prefer Mewtwo as their secondary whereas Sonic and Mario should probably opt for a Cloud counterpick.

I think as you go down the tiers Cloud's ability to cover many matchups becomes more important but as the main of a top tier character you want to be able to cover a number of very specific matchup first and foremost and that's where Mewtwo and Luigi can be better secondaries to have than Cloud.

 

[Kofu]

Sheik could maybe use a secondary for ///. I don't see any of those MUs being better than even for her, and even if they are she might struggle on a player vs. player basis. An unorthodox character who covers several (all?) of these is...Villager. Mewtwo and Diddy seem to struggle against short characters with strong mid-range projectile games. I'd argue Sonic does to an extent as well. Komorikiri used to lose to Ranai all the time, and now KEN has been struggling with Duck Hunt. See a pattern? The only one I'm not sure about is Lucario, but I have a hard time seeing him winning the matchup if Mewtwo doesn't. So yeah, maybe this is worth a try?

Even with Ranai's record against Komorikiri (something I wasn't aware of, any good vids?), Villager probably loses to Sonic. That speed allows him to work around a lot of Villager's traps.

Mewtwo is fairly even but probably slightly in Villager's favor. Not entirely sure about Diddy but it's an okay fight.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo main's really shouldn't be losing that much to Villager.

Villager's ledge traps and kill potential are both good., but Mewtwo's anti zoning gaame is top class. In abadango's set versus Kept, he's either not using Confusion enough or is using it too much. Kept clearly knew the match up better than Abadango did.

I'm also hesistant to say Mewtwo has trouble with Duck Hunt either when there is no footage of those matches. I know he's lost those matches but I have know idea how or why.

 

[Illuminose]

ehhh

The main matchups Sheik doesn't want to play are and , which are prime targets for a Cloud counterpick. Otherwise, I just feel that it's good to have secondaries as Sheik in general because, no matter who else you play, she is probably the hardest character to have consistently on point. Therefore having options, characters you can play if Sheik isn't working, is very valuable. If you're on point, there is no reason to switch off Sheik. However, to be consistent, having secondary characters is vital.

 

[TurboLink]

I agree that Cloud isn't the best counterpick to Sheik.

It also seems that Cloud's Sheik weaknesses is being a little overstated when talking about his viability. Yes, he loses to her, but that doesn't make him any less than the best counterpick character in the game. There's no one else (as far as we know) that gives him that level of trouble. And if your Sheik weaknesses is 60:40 or less, you still might want to play it out. Cloud covers every other character. One losing MU doesn't change that.

EDIT: Although, I have to wonder who worries about Sheik that much these days such that they need a secondary. Ganondorf?

I'd say Link is one of those characters. I don't know about anyone else though.

 

[bc1910]

Sheik is still bad for Greninja. At least, he's much worse at that MU than Fox. Even ZeRo said that Greninja does well against Sheik, I'm surprised this is such a fast-spreading misconception.

If Sheik players are still losing after they stop running into Dtilt and weak Nair and getting confirmed into Usmash kills at 70%, then they can say Greninja does well.

Greninja cannot reliably kill a Sheik who knows what they're doing (or simply don't run into his Usmash confirms) without Uthrow, which kills later than Sheik's Ftilt 50/50s or confirms into Bouncing Fish (which are more practical than Greninja's confirms; even yolo Bouncing Fish is probably more practical than Greninja's confirms though it's less safe). Sheik still has vastly superior neutral and is likely to rack damage quicker, so the late kill throw doesn't help much.

The MU has improved a lot (it was likely unwinnable pre-patch) but now that I have more experience I'd still place it in 60:40 territory.

I will, of course, continue to lab the MU and strive to improve it.

 

[blackghost]

Sheik is still bad for Greninja. At least, he's much worse at that MU than Fox. Even ZeRo said that Greninja does well against Sheik, I'm surprised this is such a fast-spreading misconception.

If Sheik players are still losing after they stop running into Dtilt and weak Nair and getting confirmed into Usmash kills at 70%, then they can say Greninja does well.

Greninja cannot reliably kill a Sheik who knows what they're doing (or simply don't run into his Usmash confirms) without Uthrow, which kills later than Sheik's Ftilt 50/50s or confirms into Bouncing Fish (which are more practical than Greninja's confirms; even yolo Bouncing Fish is probably more practical than Greninja's confirms though it's less safe). Sheik still has vastly superior neutral and is likely to rack damage quicker, so the late kill throw doesn't help much.

The MU has improved a lot (it was likely unwinnable pre-patch) but now that I have more experience I'd still place it in 60:40 territory.

I will, of course, continue to lab the MU and strive to improve it.

in terms of mus id stay away from zero's logic. shiek beats greninja. as long as shiek can avoid getting upsmashed shuek should be fine long term.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Greninja I feel benefits more from a Mewtwo secondary than a pocket Cloud, mainly because of the Sheik matchup and because Mewtwo does fine against Greninja's other major losing character, Sonic. Pikachu is a similar matter, Mewtwo not only covers Sheik whom Pikachu has an awful record against but also Mario. Cloud just doesn't really help either of them.

Them Pokemon gotta stick together.