Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Oh yeah, hype, fun, boring... aren't really valid sole topics of discussion here either.
Please refrain.
----

Lancer, You've been saying a character is badly designed essentially because you find him boring to play. Marth can get away with fairing for damage, combos, and stocks, but that doesn't mean it's the most efficient way of playing him, your use of for glory anecdotes is making you more biased than people are willing to accept (so don't use the excuse of everyone has bias [duh] because that is trash).

Uhmm, a really big choice because one is a full anti-air with KO potential that can be pivoted out of a dash or PP reversed towards an opponent, and the other is a grounded poke (anti-dash) that's a shield trap with low knockback and is more safe on shield? Bair starts low, ends high, can kinda fill niches of his up air because of it's high reach, his only worthwhile auto cancel so it's his best aerial to use from a rising jump. Nair has long duration (covering of dodge options/etc), more range, pokes in specific places and has surprising KO power, it's the lowest landing lag of his aerials, you're daft if you don't get the differences.
Them leaving dash attack and down smash as weak/awful is a shame, in Brawl Dsmash was his best KO move, they neutered it. Dair is an up tilt that aims downwards.

But my goodness why am I having to explain how a character works to the person who makes the claim a character has a poor design? One would hope you would know what you're talking about...

Sheik's fair AC is actually 3/4 frames after the last hitbox is gone.... and this is a 10 frame interaction vs Pit's 30.

And you didn't say it at all, you just used 'options are samey'/nothype/notfun/boring. You fluffed up paragraph upon paragraph with inane nothingness.
One should actually try playing the game offline/at tournaments before forming such caustic opinions on characters. Yes, button pressing on wifi is powerful and is skewed towards those with higher range.

DP = Dragon Punch = Up-B. It's got pretty low landing lag (19? IIRC), invincibility, the range is poor unfortunately but w/e. If you ever played offline where you use stages with platforms you'd see a bit more variance in it's use and mix ups that allow safety. It's still fine to use to intercept people in the air because of the low landing lag even on flat stages.

"dancing blade isn't a move I see a lot of".... ....
.......... *sigh*

You're not above the 'for glory anecdotes aren't valid evidence to bring to this thread'.
In fact, you're below it, because you have shown an inability to differentiate between real game play and what you experience at your level of play.
STOP.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

is still very good. She has a rough (but winnable) Diddy matchup, and that's the only character I see beating her worse than 6:4. You might be able to DI out of her kill combos, but she still gets reasonable damage at low- and mid-%. Not to mention Witch Twist has clear utility outside of combos as well (OoS, good recovery, etc). I'm not sure I'd call her neutral "incredible," but it's definitely good (and was one thing people understated pre-nerf). Furthermore, I don't think she's done growing. Players such as ikep and saj have very much convinced me that there's still a lot left to explore with her. She could even sneak into the lower end of the top 10. The dev team did a great job at making her not stupid while allowing her to remain strong.

I'm starting to think that Bayonetta and Rosalina make a good character duo.

Bayonetta struggles with projectile zoning and general "lame" gameplay; Rosalina gives a giant middle finger to projectiles and is generally capable of playing pretty lame herself. Rosalina's most notable bad matchup is Meta Knight, but you could make a case for her not particularly enjoying any matchup vs. a dedicated swordsman like Marth and Bayonetta seems capable of handling them on her own merits.

 

[Nobie]

I don't understand what people aren't understanding... Marth lacks real choices beyond the basics and killing off the same move you've been using the entire time isn't hype. No depth and no hype isn't fun. What's so hard for people to get?

Like, what's the big difference, the big choice, between something like Dtilt and Ftilt? Fair, Bair and Nair? How often are Dair, Dsmash, and dash attack relevant? Things like that.

Yeah, but power shielding and counter spacing are problems inherent to pretty much any swordsman style design.

I get that Pit's ACs need optimization. Use Nair right and he can act just nine frames after the last hitbox is gone. (That's one less frame then Sheik's Fair for those of you playing at home, on a move with similar knockback. Fun stuff.)

So he's less interesting then before because of a lack of autocancels, largely standardized range and little in terms of combos... Like I said, besides the autocancels. Not complaining about what you said but that it's apparently fine with everybody else if you say it and not me.

I don't really think he's good at training fundamentals in this game. Most people I see play him just abuse his power and lack of counterplay in middle levels. Marth's one of the most common picks online because people think they can cheese wins with him, not because he teaches you to play the game. Marth only teaches fundamentals past the point where it's not necessary anymore, honestly.

Grounded dash options. Dash > shield is the worst in the game, dash attack has no redeeming qualities (unless "DP" was supposed to be DA then I'm lost here), dash grab is mediocre. I can understand taking away things for others to be improved but Marth is already one of the most vanilla characters in the roster. His jumping options are great but still basic.

Dancing Blade isn't a move I see a lot of... Feels more like I see it punished on hit more then actual successful use. Yeah, I'm probably biased because I play a floaty but still. Dolphin Slash I've seen get stuffed by a lot of things because it's hitboxes don't match and then the endlag makes it quite risky compared to the reward... Dunno, but you're making them sound a lot more useful then I've been lead to believe. They don't seem like things you'd regularly use, not even like Pit Dsmash level.

This might blow your mind, but hear me out.

Some people LIKE playing a character that's pure fundamental(s). It's not about a linear or non-linear game plan, it's about what you can get out of the character both as a player and as an opponent.

You think Marth is boring and not worth using. That's fine, and would probably be a deal breaker for you... if the game didn't give you 56 other choices (+1 Lucina). Just because a character doesn't suit you doesn't mean they somehow detract from the game.

It'd be one thing if Marth were broken at any level of play, but as far as I can tell he isn't. I haven't played much as of late, but who are these mid-level players dying to Marths at local tournaments? I watch a lot of streams, and for every Marth that might be "abusing Marth's advantages," there are probably five times as many Clouds doing the same. If they're losing to Marth, they're probably also losing to Mario's frame data or Ryu's Shoryuken or anything else. Playing as Marth and counterplaying against him are both conceptually simple tasks that are made more complex by the fact that spacing and footsies are actually a tough concept to fully master.

Also I don't know how you can argue "lack of hype" at the same time that tipper f-smash exists. If you can't appreciate seeing it land, seeing a player successfully judge their opponent's reaction to hit that sweet arcing swing, then I don't know what to say.

And as for the way that someone like @Thinkaman discusses game design and the way you do is a world of difference. I'm not even necessarily talking about the guy is a game designer. For characters who people have complained about in the past, there's usually an understandable reason why they see the character hurting the game, even if I might not agree with their claims. Aura rewards getting hit. Waft and Limit encourage camping, which can be a severe hurdle for weaker players to overcome. Pre-patch Luigi and Diddy stunted the characters' growth AND over-centralized their game plan on a handful of key moves.

Marth doesn't centralize anything, isn't rewarded for losing any more than any other character is (mind you, I like rage), uses nearly his entire moveset (and before you say "What about dair," watch False), and his effectiveness scales with how good you are as a player.

TL;DR: You say that a character that's all neutral is boring, but to someone else a character that's all neutral is the best thing possible. Marth isn't so good or so bad that this actually matters.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

He doesn't really have to fight for the middle. Unless it's FD he can honestly just run away for waft for a long *** time.

Not if he fights his bad/even MUs or if the opponent is playing correct. Running away is pretty hard to do when your only burst escape option is bike (though rolls are pretty hard to punish on reaction).

and I think people are saying X character is boring is because they're not well-developed and lacks the nuance you would see in the older smash games.

 

[Ffamran]

DP = Dragon Punch = Up-B. It's got pretty low landing lag (19? IIRC), invincibility, the range is poor unfortunately but w/e.

It's 20. Apparently, it used to be 23 before 1.1.0 for whatever reason. Learn new things everyday.

Link to sixriver's page on Marth's Specials: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...GltLroA7VdZGA/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=993340046. For anyone who can't read Japanese or is too lazy to click on this link, I'm not going to spoonfeed translate it for you; just use Google translate or something -- that's how I got by with all of sixriver's delicious data. Translating words is fine with Google translate.

Heh... DP... Meanwhile, Marth's got a DS... Meh... Failing to make a joke about how Falchion is a dragon slaying sword, so DS could be "dragon sword" or "dragon slash" as the sword version of Shoryuken and wanting to see an actual Dolphin Punch as a DP. Oh, if I understand correctly, with the right character, "ken" can mean sword, so Shoryuken could be "Rising Dragon Sword" and that would mean Marth actually has a Shoryuken... I'm going to shut up now. ._.

 

[Nu~]

@LancerStaff
I think you're thinking about Fair when you say "autocancels 9 frames after final hitbox"
Nair autocancels 5 frames after the last hitbox according to KuroganeHammer.

So it's better than what you said, but still less than sheik.


Now back to lurking this convo I go~

 

[NairWizard]

Marth is a really interesting and diverse character, because he doesn't have any bull**** that just lets him win automatically. No grab combos, no kill throw or easy kill confirm, no super high-risk high-reward combos, no cheesy spammable moves. Just a kit of options that work well at the correct spacing. This is a great dynamic and its fun factor is amplified by the fact that the "correct" spacing doesn't always mean tipper. For instance, tippered up-air can be a good kill move but non-tippered up-air can start combos. So the Marth has to be keenly aware of hitbox placement and timing.

I'd certainly say that Marth is more dynamic and interesting in neutral than most of the cast.

Compared to Pit... Pit also doesn't have much bull****, but relies a lot more on his dash attack/dash grab 50:50, since his aerials while space-able are kinda eh overall (d-air is really solid though), and his great juggling game and grab followups carry him a bit.



Btw (since Marth is a suitable springboard topic for this), somewhat public apology to Shaya because I misunderstood a comment that he made in here and figured it was targeted at me when it wasn't a long time ago, but since I haven't been around I haven't had the chance to say so. Sorry bro, you're the man.

 

[Murlough]

I don't get why this debate over a character's "boringness" is relevent to a competitive discussion. Seems like the talk should be moved elsewhere or banned altogether.

Why do I rarely ever see top players make use of perfect pivoting? I see Larry Lurr's fox do it fairly often but other characters I hardly ever see perform it regularly if at all. Am I just missing it?

 

[Djent]

Just thought you should all know is in grands at Versus. That is all~

 

[L9999]

Just thought you should all know is in grands at Versus. That is all~

Did PurpleGuy played Sheik at all? I mean , it's hype to see Zelda that far but given her reputation, PG's Sheik might have influenced the result.

 

[Das Koopa]

Purpleguy beats 8Bitman 3-2

Used Sheik game 5 to beat 8BitMan's R.O.B.

 

[Djent]

L9999 it was mostly Zelda, but he just used Sheik to seal game 5 and the tournament.

EDIT: 2-framed by Das Koopa

 

[krazySyko]

According to the interview, he did use Sheik against Seibrik in game 3 (after he switched from Mario to MK), and a Game and Watch named Gingy, but as far as I know the rest was Zelda.

 

[PK Gaming]

Why do I rarely ever see top players make use of perfect pivoting? I see Larry Lurr's fox do it fairly often but other characters I hardly ever see perform it regularly if at all. Am I just missing it?

Most characters just don't get that much out of perfect pivoting.

 

[Amadeus9]

Most characters just don't get that much out of perfect pivoting.

Quite a few top level viable characters like perfect pivoting as just a basic movement option. And the question on why it isn't being used more is a pretty legitimate one!

 

[Djent]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Smash 4 broke 2.5K at EVO. Amazing.

 

[Fenny]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Smash 4 broke 2.5K at EVO. Amazing.

That SFV figure is insane.

 

[Joey T.]

Most characters just don't get that much out of perfect pivoting.

What characters get something out of perfect pivoting tho? We've seen characters progress in their meta with things like footstools, like Greninja, or Lucas to a lesser extent, but what about perfect pivoting? Back in the day some people said that Little Mac would raise in viability with perfect pivoting, but we haven't seen that really.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

No character is going to rise significantly from perfect pivoting because it doesn't change any of the character's fundamental strengths or weaknesses. A 20XX bidou mac still can't recover, a Fox who knows how to perfect pivot still has to play around shield to win the neutral.

Perfect pivoting provides a quick non-commital defensive maneuver that opens up many spacing options. That's about it. It's not some fast pressure option that can't be reacted to, it doesn't overwhelm the opponent with offensive pressure in the neutral like a lot of Melee tech, and with the exception of some of the roster's longer perfect pivots, this tech probably still loses to good dash attacks, dash grabs, and dash to shield unless timed frame perfect.

 

[C0rvus]

So... Bait and punish characters seem like big winners from applied perfect pivoting. Even stuff like PP > Roll can mess up your opponent's spacing and timing, even at top level where microspacing is a pretty big thing. Also stuff like Diddy PP dtilt or Fox PP utilt seems so good. Far from useless technique, but I can understand many characters don't care for it at all.

 

[Das Koopa]

So, here's the updated chart, and the big surprise I was talking about is clear when examining the Unweighted chart:

Spoiler: Top 16 Unweighted

...Cloud passes Diddy Kong with the extra value he receives if secondaries are valued the same as primaries.

It's also plainly obvious from observing previous charts that Bayonetta took a significant drop. Here are the exact % differences courtesy of Meta Chart, for Weighted Top 16:

-Sheik up 1.9%
-Cloud up 1.9%
-Rosalina & Luma up 1.5%
-Sonic up 1.4%
-Zero Suit Samus up 1.4%
-Diddy Kong up 1.1%
-Mario up 1%
-Meta Knight up 0.7%
-Fox up 0.6%
-Ryu up 0.5%
-Peach up 0.3%
-Corrin up 0.2%
---
-Toon Link down 0.3%
-Captain Falcon down 0.6%
-Mewtwo down 1%
-Ness down 1.1%
-Other down 1.1%
-R.O.B down 1.2%
-Bayonetta down 5.5%

NEW: Marth, Greninja, Pikachu.
OFF: Yoshi, Luigi, Mega Man.

Top 8 stuff:

Spoiler: Top 8 Charts

There is a significant amount of correlation between all four charts, however, top 8 seems to boost and above and . Meta Knight does unexpectedly well in all charts, as does Marth and Greninja, who have seen significant boosts in 1.1.6 values. Both unweighted charts set Cloud ahead of Diddy Kong even though there's a decently size gap between them on weighted variants.

Bowser is present at 20th on both lists. Fun little bit, I guess, but it makes sense considering that a lot of his results were in top 8s and thus they weren't discounted by excluding 9th-13th for top 8 lists. Kind of surprised Marth does well in top 8 lists. If memory serves, he's anchored by a lot of 9ths, but I could be wrong.

Spoiler: March 15th-July 1st Weighted Top 16

Bayonetta is in third due to the mountainous amounts of points she received during 1.1.5 era, but the long-term results otherwise appear to match up.

Results in full for every format:

Spoiler: Top 16 Weighted

Sheik: 223
Diddy Kong: 216
Cloud: 182
Fox: 134.5
Sonic: 128
Mario: 124.5
Rosalina & Luma: 115.5
Zero Suit Samus: 99.5
Bayonetta: 83.5
Meta Knight: 73
Ryu: 63.5
Marth: 59.5
Peach: 53
Corrin: 52
Ness: 50
Captain Falcon: 48.5
Pikachu: 48
Toon Link: 43.5
Greninja: 42.5
Mewtwo: 42
R.O.B: 42
Donkey Kong: 41.5
Yoshi: 36
Lucario: 33.5
Bowser: 33
Luigi: 32
Villager: 30
Little Mac: 29
Duck Hunt: 26.5
Pit: 24
Mega Man: 23.5
Olimar: 22
Ike: 21.5
Robin: 21
Lucas: 19
Pac-Man: 17.5
Wario: 16
Link: 15
King Dedede: 13
Wii Fit Trainer: 9
Mr. Game & Watch: 9
Bowser Jr.: 9
Palutena: 8
Kirby: 7
Shulk: 5
Ganondorf: 5
Mii Brawler: 4
Falco: 2.5
Zelda: 2
Lucina: 2
Samus: 1.5
Roy: 1

Spoiler: Top 16 Unweighted

Sheik: 269
Cloud: 246
Diddy Kong: 237
Fox: 157
Mario: 139
Sonic: 134
Rosalina & Luma: 126
Zero Suit Samus: 115
Meta Knight: 98
Bayonetta: 89
Ryu: 69
Corrin: 65
Marth: 65
Captain Falcon: 56
Ness: 55
Peach: 53
Donkey Kong: 53
Pikachu: 49
R.O.B: 48
Mewtwo: 46
Toon Link: 44
Greninja: 43
Luigi: 40
Lucario: 37
Bowser: 37
Yoshi: 36
Duck Hunt: 35
Little Mac: 32
Villager: 30
Olimar: 30
Pac-Man: 25
Mega Man: 25
Pit: 24
Ike: 23
Robin: 21
Lucas: 19
King Dedede: 17
Wario: 16
Link: 15
Wii Fit Trainer: 9
Mr. Game & Watch: 9
Bowser Jr.: 9
Palutena: 8
Kirby: 7
Mii Brawler: 6
Shulk: 5
Ganondorf: 5
Falco: 5
Lucina: 4
Samus: 3
Zelda: 2
Roy: 1

Spoiler: Top 8 Weighted

Sheik: 139
Diddy Kong: 123.5
Cloud: 104
Mario: 75.5
Zero Suit Samus: 69.5
Rosalina & Luma: 69.5
Fox: 64
Sonic: 61
Meta Knight: 41
Ryu: 37.5
Bayonetta: 31.5
Toon Link: 27.5
Pikachu: 27
Corrin: 25.5
Mewtwo: 25
Marth: 24.5
Peach: 23
Greninja: 22
Donkey Kong: 17.5
Bowser: 16.5
Ness: 16
R.O.B.: 14
Duck Hunt: 13.5
Captain Falcon: 13.5
Olimar: 13
Luigi: 12
Pac-Man: 10.5
Pit: 10
Little Mac: 9
Mega Man: 8.5
Wario: 8
King Dedede: 7.5
Yoshi: 7
Lucario: 6.5
Robin: 6
Lucas: 4
Villager: 4
Wii Fit Trainer: 3
Palutena: 3
Link: 3
Ike: 2.5
Falco: 1.5
Mii Brawler: 1
Lucina: 1
Ganondorf: 1
Samus: 0.5

Spoiler: Top 8 Unweighted

Sheik: 172
Cloud: 146
Diddy Kong: 136
Mario: 83
Zero Suit Samus: 82
Rosalina & Luma: 79
Fox: 70
Sonic: 64
Meta Knight: 60
Ryu: 42
Bayonetta: 34
Corrin: 34
Marth: 29
Pikachu: 29
Toon Link: 28
Mewtwo: 28
Donkey Kong: 26
Peach: 23
Greninja: 22
Bowser: 19
Olimar: 19
Duck Hunt: 19
Ness: 19
Captain Falcon: 18
R.O.B.: 17
Pac-Man: 17
Luigi: 16
Little Mac: 11
Pit: 10
King Dedede: 10
Mega Man: 9
Wario: 8
Lucario: 8
Yoshi: 7
Robin: 6
Lucas: 4
Villager: 4
Wii Fit Trainer: 3
Palutena: 3
Link: 3
Ike: 3
Falco: 3
Mii Brawler: 2
Lucina: 2
Ganondorf: 1
Samus: 1

Spoiler: Top 16 March 15th Onwards Weighted

Diddy Kong: 482.5
Sheik: 475.5
Bayonetta: 360
Cloud: 355.5
Fox: 294.5
Mario: 256.5
Sonic: 252.5
Zero Suit Samus: 240.5
Rosalina & Luma: 218
Ness: 152
Meta Knight: 147
R.O.B: 135.5
Captain Falcon: 134.5
Ryu: 131
Mewtwo: 128.5
Corrin: 114.5
Peach: 113
Luigi: 110.5
Toon Link: 106
Yoshi: 103.5
Marth: 103.5
Donkey Kong: 100
Pikachu: 99.5
Mega Man: 92.5
Greninja: 77.5
Bowser: 71
Ike: 68.5
Lucario: 63.5
Olimar: 59
Villager: 58.5
Wario: 49.5
Robin: 48
Little Mac: 47
Duck Hunt: 44
Palutena: 43
Pit: 42
Lucas: 42
Link: 40
Pac-Man: 33
Samus: 30
Mr. Game & Watch: 28
Wii Fit Trainer: 25
King Dedede: 24.5
Kirby: 23.5
Bowser Jr.: 17
Mii Brawler: 13
Shulk: 12
Roy: 11.5
Falco: 11.5
Ganondorf: 10.5
Zelda: 8
Lucina: 5.5
Jigglypuff: 5
Dr. Mario: 3
Dark Pit: 0
Mii Gunner: 0
Mii Swordfighter: 0

Methodology:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m_3mnTm2CUhlxzi-vlN29OwEbQlUcJN6V1em2cX8aAw/edit

Results thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

A more formal variant of this on reddit, including all of the credits & such:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4qrmrg/tournament_results_based_tier_list_may_16thjuly/

 

[Wintermelon43]

So, here's the updated chart, and the big surprise I was talking about is clear when examining the Unweighted chart:

Spoiler: Top 16 Unweighted

...Cloud passes Diddy Kong with the extra value he receives if secondaries are valued the same as primaries.

It's also plainly obvious from observing previous charts that Bayonetta took a significant drop. Here are the exact % differences courtesy of Meta Chart, for Weighted Top 16:

-Sheik up 1.9%
-Cloud up 1.9%
-Rosalina & Luma up 1.5%
-Sonic up 1.4%
-Zero Suit Samus up 1.4%
-Diddy Kong up 1.1%
-Mario up 1%
-Meta Knight up 0.7%
-Fox up 0.6%
-Ryu up 0.5%
-Peach up 0.3%
-Corrin up 0.2%
---
-Toon Link down 0.3%
-Captain Falcon down 0.6%
-Mewtwo down 1%
-Ness down 1.1%
-Other down 1.1%
-R.O.B down 1.2%
-Bayonetta down 5.5%

NEW: Marth, Greninja, Pikachu.
OFF: Yoshi, Luigi, Mega Man.

Top 8 stuff:

Spoiler: Top 8 Charts

There is a significant amount of correlation between all four charts, however, top 8 seems to boost and above and . Meta Knight does unexpectedly well in all charts, as does Marth and Greninja, who have seen significant boosts in 1.1.6 values. Both unweighted charts set Cloud ahead of Diddy Kong even though there's a decently size gap between them on weighted variants.

Bowser is present at 20th on both lists. Fun little bit, I guess, but it makes sense considering that a lot of his results were in top 8s and thus they weren't discounted by excluding 9th-13th for top 8 lists. Kind of surprised Marth does well in top 8 lists. If memory serves, he's anchored by a lot of 9ths, but I could be wrong.

Spoiler: March 15th-July 1st Weighted Top 16

Bayonetta is in third due to the mountainous amounts of points she received during 1.1.5 era, but the long-term results otherwise appear to match up.

Results in full for every format:

Spoiler: Top 16 Weighted

Sheik: 223
Diddy Kong: 216
Cloud: 182
Fox: 134.5
Sonic: 128
Mario: 124.5
Rosalina & Luma: 115.5
Zero Suit Samus: 99.5
Bayonetta: 83.5
Meta Knight: 73
Ryu: 63.5
Marth: 59.5
Peach: 53
Corrin: 52
Ness: 50
Captain Falcon: 48.5
Pikachu: 48
Toon Link: 43.5
Greninja: 42.5
Mewtwo: 42
R.O.B: 42
Donkey Kong: 41.5
Yoshi: 36
Lucario: 33.5
Bowser: 33
Luigi: 32
Villager: 30
Little Mac: 29
Duck Hunt: 26.5
Pit: 24
Mega Man: 23.5
Olimar: 22
Ike: 21.5
Robin: 21
Lucas: 19
Pac-Man: 17.5
Wario: 16
Link: 15
King Dedede: 13
Wii Fit Trainer: 9
Mr. Game & Watch: 9
Bowser Jr.: 9
Palutena: 8
Kirby: 7
Shulk: 5
Ganondorf: 5
Mii Brawler: 4
Falco: 2.5
Zelda: 2
Lucina: 2
Samus: 1.5
Roy: 1

Spoiler: Top 16 Unweighted

Sheik: 269
Cloud: 246
Diddy Kong: 237
Fox: 157
Mario: 139
Sonic: 134
Rosalina & Luma: 126
Zero Suit Samus: 115
Meta Knight: 98
Bayonetta: 89
Ryu: 69
Corrin: 65
Marth: 65
Captain Falcon: 56
Ness: 55
Peach: 53
Donkey Kong: 53
Pikachu: 49
R.O.B: 48
Mewtwo: 46
Toon Link: 44
Greninja: 43
Luigi: 40
Lucario: 37
Bowser: 37
Yoshi: 36
Duck Hunt: 35
Little Mac: 32
Villager: 30
Olimar: 30
Pac-Man: 25
Mega Man: 25
Pit: 24
Ike: 23
Robin: 21
Lucas: 19
King Dedede: 17
Wario: 16
Link: 15
Wii Fit Trainer: 9
Mr. Game & Watch: 9
Bowser Jr.: 9
Palutena: 8
Kirby: 7
Mii Brawler: 6
Shulk: 5
Ganondorf: 5
Falco: 5
Lucina: 4
Samus: 3
Zelda: 2
Roy: 1

Spoiler: Top 8 Weighted

Sheik: 139
Diddy Kong: 123.5
Cloud: 104
Mario: 75.5
Zero Suit Samus: 69.5
Rosalina & Luma: 69.5
Fox: 64
Sonic: 61
Meta Knight: 41
Ryu: 37.5
Bayonetta: 31.5
Toon Link: 27.5
Pikachu: 27
Corrin: 25.5
Mewtwo: 25
Marth: 24.5
Peach: 23
Greninja: 22
Donkey Kong: 17.5
Bowser: 16.5
Ness: 16
R.O.B.: 14
Duck Hunt: 13.5
Captain Falcon: 13.5
Olimar: 13
Luigi: 12
Pac-Man: 10.5
Pit: 10
Little Mac: 9
Mega Man: 8.5
Wario: 8
King Dedede: 7.5
Yoshi: 7
Lucario: 6.5
Robin: 6
Lucas: 4
Villager: 4
Wii Fit Trainer: 3
Palutena: 3
Link: 3
Ike: 2.5
Falco: 1.5
Mii Brawler: 1
Lucina: 1
Ganondorf: 1
Samus: 0.5

Spoiler: Top 8 Unweighted

Sheik: 172
Cloud: 146
Diddy Kong: 136
Mario: 83
Zero Suit Samus: 82
Rosalina & Luma: 79
Fox: 70
Sonic: 64
Meta Knight: 60
Ryu: 42
Bayonetta: 34
Corrin: 34
Marth: 29
Pikachu: 29
Toon Link: 28
Mewtwo: 28
Donkey Kong: 26
Peach: 23
Greninja: 22
Bowser: 19
Olimar: 19
Duck Hunt: 19
Ness: 19
Captain Falcon: 18
R.O.B.: 17
Pac-Man: 17
Luigi: 16
Little Mac: 11
Pit: 10
King Dedede: 10
Mega Man: 9
Wario: 8
Lucario: 8
Yoshi: 7
Robin: 6
Lucas: 4
Villager: 4
Wii Fit Trainer: 3
Palutena: 3
Link: 3
Ike: 3
Falco: 3
Mii Brawler: 2
Lucina: 2
Ganondorf: 1
Samus: 1

Spoiler: Top 16 March 15th Onwards Weighted

Diddy Kong: 482.5
Sheik: 475.5
Bayonetta: 360
Cloud: 355.5
Fox: 294.5
Mario: 256.5
Sonic: 252.5
Zero Suit Samus: 240.5
Rosalina & Luma: 218
Ness: 152
Meta Knight: 147
R.O.B: 135.5
Captain Falcon: 134.5
Ryu: 131
Mewtwo: 128.5
Corrin: 114.5
Peach: 113
Luigi: 110.5
Toon Link: 106
Yoshi: 103.5
Marth: 103.5
Donkey Kong: 100
Pikachu: 99.5
Mega Man: 92.5
Greninja: 77.5
Bowser: 71
Ike: 68.5
Lucario: 63.5
Olimar: 59
Villager: 58.5
Wario: 49.5
Robin: 48
Little Mac: 47
Duck Hunt: 44
Palutena: 43
Pit: 42
Lucas: 42
Link: 40
Pac-Man: 33
Samus: 30
Mr. Game & Watch: 28
Wii Fit Trainer: 25
King Dedede: 24.5
Kirby: 23.5
Bowser Jr.: 17
Mii Brawler: 13
Shulk: 12
Roy: 11.5
Falco: 11.5
Ganondorf: 10.5
Zelda: 8
Lucina: 5.5
Jigglypuff: 5
Dr. Mario: 3
Dark Pit: 0
Mii Gunner: 0
Mii Swordfighter: 0

Methodology:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m_3mnTm2CUhlxzi-vlN29OwEbQlUcJN6V1em2cX8aAw/edit

Results thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

A more formal variant of this on reddit, including all of the credits & such:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4qrmrg/tournament_results_based_tier_list_may_16thjuly/

It looks like FG isn't the only place filled with a ton of Marths.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's results have improved significantly. He is currently earning his place for top of mid/bottom of high consideration.

Also how is it a surprise for Cloud to rise above Diddy unweighted? Cloud is the go-to secondary. What's arguably more surprising is that unweighted Cloud isn't #1.

 

[C0rvus]

It looks like FG isn't the only place filled with a ton of Marths.

Marth and Lucina are among the most popular characters in the game, oddly enough. I guess Marth has been hugely popular among players since Melee. He is pretty cool, not gonna lie.

 

[Jamurai]

Shoutouts to Chile for the MK results. Three of them in top 16 of that regional last weekend, probably a large factor as to why he has a strong showing in these charts. As well as ANTi @ CEO of course.

 

[aεrgiα]

Dabuz lost games with Olimar, too. I'm certain Abadango believes that his CPs were necessary, so I'd put him in the CP group.

Mr. R is looking for a secondary, VoiD's Fox won him a game, Larry's DK is critical to covering some of Fox's bad MUs, ZeRo's Sheik is rusty, but he's practicing her and Cloud, and finally, ANTi wouldn't have won without using his stable of CPs to throw off his opponents and make use of their weaknesses.

yeah dabuz lost games with olimar too, but at least he won a set with him(but if you want to count that as an argument against using secondaries, be my guest, it helps my argument ), more than you can say for most of the others. abadango also believed he needed a diddy secondary for bayonetta, if you watched BAM im sure you know how much he really needed that secondary in the end, mr.r looking for a secondary is interesting but hasnt he been looking for one for quite a while now and still stuck with solo sheik?, voids fox did win him a game, but seeing as he lost the set(i dont remember whether he stayed fox and lost the next game or switched(potentially in fear of getting counterpicked himself, a big weakness of counterpicks imo) i wouldnt really see that as proving secondaries being needed. larry likes pulling out the dk from time to time yes but in the end he pretty much always switches back to fox(and as i said, he lost the set he used him in), zero is working on a secondary and we'll see what comes of it, but without knowing how thatll work out and seeing as he went solo diddy for ceo, how does this prove counterpicks and secondaries are the way to go? as i said, anti is the one big argument in favour, the guy whos used multiple characters pretty much the whole of this games lifetime, and done well with it too, yet no-one was talking about a counterpick meta back then(despite zero using sheik & diddy, despite aba using mk and pac, rosa, wario etc). im not saying we arent moving in the direction of a counterpick heavy meta, maybe we are but we definitely arent at that stage yet, and i dont see how ceo proved anything in that direction at all, nor do i think we should make a rash judgement on it and treat it as an undisputed fact(and thereby potentially spread wrong information too), if anything, to me ceo went more in favour of solo maining rather than using multiple characters :/

 

[Illusion.]

Greninja's results have improved significantly. He is currently earning his place for top of mid/bottom of high consideration.

Now it's just a matter of whether or not we can keep getting these good results consistently.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Oh, and maintenance is down now. mains, you can all rest easy. can go back to crying themselves to sleep tonight .

 

[PK Gaming]

Quite a few top level viable characters like perfect pivoting as just a basic movement option. And the question on why it isn't being used more is a pretty legitimate one!

It seems unnecessary, for one. I think we've reached a point where top tiers more or less have their gameplan ironed out, and PP isn't a consistent part of their play. I mean, I'm not saying it's useless, but PP is a pretty big commitment to make, especially when simpler, low commitment movement options are available.

EDIT: Das Koopa praise this man and his work. I mean holy shiiiiit, look at those tournament results. Kinda reminds of Smogon's usage lists, haha. Maybe it should be officially incorporated into the site in some way...?

 

[Mister Eric]

About time someone speaks the hard truth. R.O.B is painful to watch against top tiers. I watched ESAM VS Mr. Eric and it looked awful. Eric couldn't do a single thing because Pikachu doesn't give a single damn about anything R.O.B even thinks. I also watched random Cloud vs random R.O.B and once again, painful to watch. And according to R.O.B players ZSS is unwinnable(?) All of this is because R.O.B is a giant sandbag that gets manhandled at the edge. Whenever the next tier list comes out I expect R.O.B to fall hard.

We've spoken the hard truth before, it's just hard to let go of our baby bot.
I do think ROB still has more room to grow. I see it, I just need to invest time in him as I haven't really done much of that since I moved to MD/VA and pursued streaming. Now that I'm quitting my job, I will be putting more time into him...and Mewtwo.

Also, on the esam match, I had no idea what I was doing lmao. I get bodied by every day Pikas. I need to spend time with that MU to truly assess how I feel about it. But yeaaa...it's smart to have a secondary, or to swap out from main to secondary. But I do hope I can bring more to the table with ROB when I get to spend more time with him like I did during the 1st yr of smash 4

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So what I'm getting out of those results is that Cloud is...the #1 secondary character in Smash right now? I can't say I'm surprised.

 

[Justinian]

So what I'm getting out of those results is that Cloud is...the #1 secondary character in Smash right now? I can't say I'm surprised.

I wouldn't be either. Cloud covers a wide number of matchups for a wide number of possible mains, along with being himself one of the most difficult characters to counterpick against. Add to this that he's relatively easy to play at a competent level, and you've got a recipe for possibly the best dedicated secondary/counterpick character in the game.

 

[Djent]

C'mon Das Koopa , you can't claim you've got a big surprise only to effectively say "Cloud is really popular."

I'd actually like to talk about . He's still #16 on this month's weighted list (unlike ROB, who fell off hard from previous ones) and sits at an impressive #13 overall. How good is this character? I'm beginning to think he's a high tier after all, though his position there is tenuous. AFAIK he has a number of bad matchups, with Sheik/Pika arguably being awful, but he might actually win vs. Rosa/Mew2/Ness. Furthermore, it's not like his results are driven particularly by one person (obligatory Sumabato 10 mention). At the very least, I think we're looking at a top 20ish character.

 

[LarryAlberto]

Sorry, ignore this, didn't mean to press post reply.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

C'mon Das Koopa , you can't claim you've got a big surprise only to effectively say "Cloud is really popular."

I'd actually like to talk about . He's still #16 on this month's weighted list (unlike ROB, who fell off hard from previous ones) and sits at an impressive #13 overall. How good is this character? I'm beginning to think he's a high tier after all, though his position there is tenuous. AFAIK he has a number of bad matchups, with Sheik/Pika arguably being awful, but he might actually win vs. Rosa/Mew2/Ness. Furthermore, it's not like his results are driven particularly by one person (obligatory Sumabato 10 mention). At the very least, I think we're looking at a top 20ish character.

I agree "Cloud is popular" isn't news, but "Cloud is more used than Diddy in an unweighted ranking system" is a bit more interesting.

 

[Amadeus9]

It seems unnecessary, for one. I think we've reached a point where top tiers more or less have their gameplan ironed out, and PP isn't a consistent part of their play. I mean, I'm not saying it's useless, but PP is a pretty big commitment to make, especially when simpler, low commitment movement options are available.

EDIT: Das Koopa praise this man and his work. I mean holy shiiiiit, look at those tournament results. Kinda reminds of Smogon's usage lists, haha. Maybe it should be officially incorporated into the site in some way...?

?

PP has absolutely ZERO commitment if you don't screw up the input. It is completely, 100% lagless. So...? The whole point in using it is because of that lol. You can defensively space or offensively position, esp for using tilts, or really just to move around. Characters that have good perfect pivots should prefer using it over walking in many cases. See: marth!

 

[Luco]

The thing that's beginning to get to me is how strong Cloud is as a secondary. I want to pre-face this by saying I'm not trying to complain in a baseless manner about the power of his strengths (maybe this will come off that way), but it's troubling to me that people say "we're moving towards a counterpick meta" when the only real counterpick choice is... The one guy with the big sword.

And I think it might actually be doing the meta more harm than good. Previously I think we had a larger list of solo viable characters who one could expect to see hit the top of a national. Now it's a smaller pool of solo viable characters while the rest get rekt by... The one guy with the big sword.

And if you *do* decide to use a lower tiered character even with Cloud as your secondary, you still run into problems versus that tiny section of the cast who does well vs Cloud and probably your mid/low tier main and are still solo viable.

What I'm trying to say here is, I'm not sure if we've actually reached a more diverse meta or if there's just a few too many powerful top tiers that you need x top tier + everything-else-encompassing-Cloud to succeed.

ANTi using top tiers and Cloud to take CEO kinda just makes me suspect low tiers might be actually more doomed than they were before.

... This must be coming off as Cloud whining. It's more just a comment on "SECONDARY META INCOMING!" And I'm not convinced that's the case yet.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

C'mon Das Koopa , you can't claim you've got a big surprise only to effectively say "Cloud is really popular."

I'd actually like to talk about . He's still #16 on this month's weighted list (unlike ROB, who fell off hard from previous ones) and sits at an impressive #13 overall. How good is this character? I'm beginning to think he's a high tier after all, though his position there is tenuous. AFAIK he has a number of bad matchups, with Sheik/Pika arguably being awful, but he might actually win vs. Rosa/Mew2/Ness. Furthermore, it's not like his results are driven particularly by one person (obligatory Sumabato 10 mention). At the very least, I think we're looking at a top 20ish character.

While I am by no means a notable Falcon main, I do feel that I can contribute to the discussion. I definitely think Falcon is solidly top 20, probably top 15 or so (though that's hard to decide because a lot of the characters in that area are all very solid characters and are very close in terms of "power level" in my eyes). I feel the notable bad MUs are definitely Sheik and Pikachu, with Pikachu being the worst. Even if you can effectively play around Pikachu's small stature, the MU is still rather annoying.

Sheik can still easy rack up damage on us, especially on FD (seriously, it's Sheik's best stage by far now, don't take Sheik to FD), and I doubt that will ever change, however Sheik has just the perfect fall speed for us to combo her back with, plus Falcon really likes stages like Battlefield and Dreamland because they help his combos, allow places to avoid Sheik, and make it harder for Sheik to kill (Battlefield makes full hop needles > bouncing fish harder to pull off) which is where she can really struggle against Falcon, who benefits greatly from rage (raptor boost is insane).

Diddy Kong is a MU I think is only hard when you respect Diddy too much. Banana counter play needs to be integrated into the MU, and we get some pretty good stuff out of hitting him with Banana as well. Cloud has gotten much better with time, and I think what all characters need to do is capitalize better off of his crappy recovery. When he's not trying to land with Dair, Cloud actually has some problems landing. I think Diddy and Cloud are both even MUs now.

Mario is only slightly disadvantaged in Mario's favor because of the crazy combos (everyone's gonna think utilt but that's actually pretty easy to avoid, even if you get grabbed at around 0-18%). Mario likes to kill by catching people's jumps with up smash a lot of the time. Fortunately Falcon only has bair to really worry about when it comes to using aerials on grounded opponents at high percents.

You metioned Rosa, Mewtwo, and Ness. I believe Rosa and M2 are slightly in our favor, while Ness is more so in our favor. We have a better neutral than Ness and can exploit his recovery rather well, but of course you should never count Ness out. Rosa has been getting harder as more Luma play develops but Falcon's got pretty solid methods of getting rid of Luma and then pressuring Rosalina. Captain Falcon used to really be a problem for Mewtwo back in the day, I believe I even once heard it was one of Mewtwo's worst MUs(?). However Mewtwo is still a character Falcon is rather good at fighting. Or rather, the players. Mewtwo has an amazing air dodge and his players tend to have a bit of a bad habit of air dodging (even Abadongo suffers from it somewhat) and it's a good move! You can get a way with it somewhat against a lot of other characters. However, it's perfect for Falcon's game plan: condition someone into air dodging and punishing them for it. Falcon likes to make traps, especially air dodge traps and lower percent frame traps (ie if I go for dthrow > uair at a lower percent and you air dodge, you're getting bair'd as we land) and Mewtwo's awkward aerial movement and somewhat common air dodging habits are just perfect.

I think the reason why we don't see as many Falcon's as one would think is because everyone knows how to fight Captain Falcon. People know how to exploit his weakness very well, which, similar to Ness, leaves it up to Falcon to try and prevent those weaknesses from being exposed and making it harder to land yourself into a disadvantageous circumstance.

 

[meticulousboy]

The thing that's beginning to get to me is how strong Cloud is as a secondary. I want to pre-face this by saying I'm not trying to complain in a baseless manner about the power of his strengths (maybe this will come off that way), but it's troubling to me that people say "we're moving towards a counterpick meta" when the only real counterpick choice is... The one guy with the big sword.

And I think it might actually be doing the meta more harm than good. Previously I think we had a larger list of solo viable characters who one could expect to see hit the top of a national. Now it's a smaller pool of solo viable characters while the rest get rekt by... The one guy with the big sword.

And if you *do* decide to use a lower tiered character even with Cloud as your secondary, you still run into problems versus that tiny section of the cast who does well vs Cloud and probably your mid/low tier main and are still solo viable.

What I'm trying to say here is, I'm not sure if we've actually reached a more diverse meta or if there's just a few too many powerful top tiers that you need x top tier + everything-else-encompassing-Cloud to succeed.

ANTi using top tiers and Cloud to take CEO kinda just makes me suspect low tiers might be actually more doomed than they were before.

... This must be coming off as Cloud whining. It's more just a comment on "SECONDARY META INCOMING!" And I'm not convinced that's the case yet.

There is still the option of picking a mid tier. Saj switched to Peach after failing with Bayonetta. While he may not have won with Peach, I was glad to see him whip out a character that Sheik sometimes can't handle. When I was watching, I thought Sheik didn't even have a jump left before that Back Air KO. But Saj was close, nonetheless.

 

[PK Gaming]

?

PP has absolutely ZERO commitment if you don't screw up the input. It is completely, 100% lagless. So...? The whole point in using it is because of that lol. You can defensively space or offensively position, esp for using tilts, or really just to move around. Characters that have good perfect pivots should prefer using it over walking in many cases. See: marth!

I'm not convinced. Most of the time, PP isn't worth using over standard movement options. You're undervaluing consistency, which is the reason why even top Marth's don't always PP. Necessity (or to be more specific, lack thereof) is a big sticking point as well.

There's a reason why they're relatively unused at high level play.