Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shady Shaymin]

Smash 4
Smash
Smag
Smogon OU Singles

Sorry. I just had to.

Jokes aside, I think you have the right idea with your list there ~ Gheb ~ . I think you should add to the list since he has that main worthy status too. Ryu struggles against Diddy, and some zoners, right? So maybe? Any ideas?

 

[Das Koopa]

Finalized the region map to my liking for the time being.

Gets most of the nuances I wanted for the time being using a county map variant.

 

[Fenny]

So I started playing around with Mewtwo because wynaut

And I honestly think I'm in love with him.

 

[meticulousboy]

Since we're on the topic of sheik...

Sheik used to lose no matchups at all. Then 1.1.6 happened and she became less of a problem.

What matchups does she lose now, if any at all? Going purely off of results it seems like top level Marios have been doing pretty well against top level Sheiks. That godly combo breaking nair, amazing frame data and mobility, and of course his infamous upsmash all probably make that matchup even. When your opponent struggles at killing but you have a button that beats out their aerials and kills off the top, that's a pretty significant advantage.

Aside from that I think sheik's matchups are all probably still really good theoretically.

I still think Lucario might be a possible struggle for her, what with lightweight on Sheik and simply reading BF recovery can be cakewalk for Lucario.

 

[PMMikey]

I still think Lucario might be a possible struggle for her, what with lightweight on Sheik and simply reading BF recovery can be cakewalk for Lucario.

What else though? That can be used for any character, as in her lightweight and BF read can be done by anybody. That's just whats wrong with her, I'm wondering what Lucario can really do to her. To me she can just keep messing up his recovery with either needles or Nair right?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Jokes aside, I think you have the right idea with your list there ~ Gheb ~ . I think you should add to the list since he has that main worthy status too. Ryu struggles against Diddy, and some zoners, right? So maybe? Any ideas?

I could've added other characters such as Bayonetta or Ryu in my list but that would not have been the point I was trying to make. More than anything else I just want to challenge the prevalent opinion that Cloud is by default the go-to secondary and I wish more people would do the same. It just doesn't seem like a smart thing to uselessly let the metagame 'degenerate' into a Cloud-fest when choosing Cloud as your counterpick character oftentimes it's not even the optimal thing to do from a competitive point of view. A lot of the recent complaints about Cloud seem really unnecessary and often based on poor decision making rather than anything related to Cloud himself.

Like, exactly what is it that keeps people from picking up Sheik and emulating things that Void / Mr r / Zorai do to beat Cloud players? It's not like Sheik isn't an entirely viable character already.

 

[Djent]

Spoiler: WTFox Pools

AFAIK there are no huge upsets so far, buuut:

Mr.r is currently 1-1 in pools vs. a bowser jr. O.o

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) July 2, 2016

Lost game 1 to a Lucas, had to go Olimar to win the set, matchup knowledge is important

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) July 2, 2016

stuff like this makes me wish pools were being streamed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pressing a Jump input when a midair jump cannot come out will cause your character to footstool an opponent if they are in range during the next ten frames. However, Ledge Jumps don't allow you to buffer your next input.

Because all Ledge Jumps last 12 frames, you can only avoid a buffered footstool if you input an action exactly on Frame 13. The footstool timing is made easier by the fact that you cannot footstool an opponent who is invincible on the ledge.

If the victim gets footstooled and doesn't move away, they will hit the ground almost immediately, allowing you to get into position for a strong punish. If they do move away, they will still be able to attempt a recovery, but they will not have ledge invincibility if they grab the ledge while coming back.

Because most players on the ledge react to an opponent getting close with a buffered ledge option, dropping to the ledge while holding Down to avoid grabbing it, then double-jumping can bait out the response for an easy footstool. If they wait, ledge trumping becomes a viable punish. Buffering a Ledge Roll is punishable on reaction by many characters, and Ledge Attack is pretty risky.

 

[Ffamran]

stuff like this makes me wish pools were being streamed.

I'm probably getting the context wrong, but I just stumbled upon videos of Neokan #2's pools. Not much so far; just 6 videos so far, so there might not be much for some of you. There's Elexiao and the rest... going off of the tournament preview thingie, spotted Latzo, one of the "Forbidden One" players. Here's the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAGIr55p4Z6y-OLaO9wayOj9rTLpVnTGb. Here's a match of the "Forbidden One": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9S8TMKWBOg.

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm probably getting the context wrong, but I just stumbled upon videos of Neokan #2's pools. Not much so far; just 6 videos so far, so there might not be much for some of you. There's Elexiao and the rest... going off of the tournament preview thingie, spotted Latzo, one of the "Forbidden One" players. Here's the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAGIr55p4Z6y-OLaO9wayOj9rTLpVnTGb. Here's a match of the "Forbidden One": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9S8TMKWBOg.

Pikachu is my favorite Yugioh card as well

 

[Ffamran]

Pikachu is my favorite Yugioh card as well

My favorite is Cloud, but you have to fuse Marth, Shulk, and Ike to summon him... Oh, and what's your favorite Pokémon card? Mine's Yoshi because Fairy/Dragon is boss.

No, seriously though, because Pikachu is treated as a pseudo-red topic, I'm going to refer to Pikachu as the "Forbidden One" from now on. EVEN IF IT BECOMES UNBANNED AS A PSEUDO-RED TOPIC, I WILL STILL CALL PIKACHU THE "FORBIDDEN ONE".

Anyway, really liking watching Neokan #2's uploaded pools.

 

[meticulousboy]

What else though? That can be used for any character, as in her lightweight and BF read can be done by anybody. That's just whats wrong with her, I'm wondering what Lucario can really do to her. To me she can just keep messing up his recovery with either needles or Nair right?

True. But those don't kill on their own. Lucario at high percents can travel farther and faster. A Lucario at max aura from way below the ledge near the pit can recover straight up to the ledge. But that's beside the point. Lucario can do the same thing amount of damage at aura as Sheik in fewer hits. Aura Sphere goes through needles iirc.

 

[Illusion.]

Greninja I feel benefits more from a Mewtwo secondary than a pocket Cloud

Can confirm.

Pretty much everyone has trouble with, either beats or goes even with, besides maybe (not sure whether Mewtwo wins or loses this MU), which is still a doable MU for the frog.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja has no issue with Pikachu.

If ESAM is calling it even, you know it's a good MU.

 

[Respect38]

Pressing a Jump input when a midair jump cannot come out will cause your character to footstool an opponent if they are in range during the next ten frames. However, Ledge Jumps don't allow you to buffer your next input.

Because all Ledge Jumps last 12 frames, you can only avoid a buffered footstool if you input an action exactly on Frame 13. The footstool timing is made easier by the fact that you cannot footstool an opponent who is invincible on the ledge.

If the victim gets footstooled and doesn't move away, they will hit the ground almost immediately, allowing you to get into position for a strong punish. If they do move away, they will still be able to attempt a recovery, but they will not have ledge invincibility if they grab the ledge while coming back.

Because most players on the ledge react to an opponent getting close with a buffered ledge option, dropping to the ledge while holding Down to avoid grabbing it, then double-jumping can bait out the response for an easy footstool. If they wait, ledge trumping becomes a viable punish. Buffering a Ledge Roll is punishable on reaction by many characters, and Ledge Attack is pretty risky.

NotALuigiMain [who I'm not sure browses this forum or not] had an interesting comment on the Reddit thread:

This changes the ledge game.

The reason ledge trumping isn't heavily used is because you can easily buffer a get up option, and to avoid that, you have to do the ledge trump frame perfectly. This option allows you to pressure the only good bufferable ledge option, Jump. Roll is super slow, and attack gives you very little invincibility frames. Now that you can beat out the one good bufferable ledge option, ledge trumping becomes more viable, as there is a reason NOT to buffer something immediately.

Roll and Attack become actually usable mixups, but the frame data on these is really bad. I'm sure that, once labbed, you can get into some sort of position in which you can footstool a Jump option from the ledge, BUT also be able to cover Roll and Attack on reaction, making all bufferable ledge options just 1 option, and everything else another option, beaten out by ledge trumping.

Puff has one of the best air speeds in the game. Can this be important for her? Can we finally get a Puff that can edgeguard?

So is this going to end up being a big deal for ledge mixups?

 

[conTAgi0n]

ANTi posted on Twitter his top 10 in the game:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

I thought this might be relevant to share here, since ANTi just won a huge tournament, and is the best example of the new counter pick meta that lots of people believe we are entering.

Some interesting observations:

• Here is yet another top player who thinks is much, much better than his current results suggest.
• In contrast with common consensus here, ANTi places neither nor in his top 3, despite the fact that he uses both. Sheik doesn't even make his top 5.
• makes his top 3. In the comments, Dabuz expresses his disagreement. ANTi answers by suggesting Dabuz isn't exploiting her edgeguarding capabilities enough, and says that M2K's Rosa is a good example of how strong the character is at edgeguarding.
• While is probably his most used character, ANTi places him down at 9th.
• is ANTi's pick for best in the game. It makes me wonder what his thoughts are on the Sheik matchup, since it would be weird to pick as your number 1 a character who loses to (statistically speaking) the most competitively successful character in the game. Of course ANTi has plenty of characters to CP Sheik with, so maybe that has something to do with it.
  
• When asked where is: "Mid tier lolol"

 

[Das Koopa]

Neokan top 64

Spoiler

Ixis vs Biglink
Greward vs Mahie
Deimos vs Starkorn
Rydle vs Uriko
Yoren vs DoubleC
OurOuzBek vs Nyrelhos
Enki vs Kido
Latzo vs Wari
Griffith vs C7A
Shido vs MT
Pefo vs Dazed
Soreru vs Fila
C.R.Z vs Gijsbeer
Anoer vs Krycken
Marcbri vs Tjuskar
Jila vs BJay
Gluttony vs Ogey
Hoe4u vs Slax
Scarhi vs Manko
Samplay vs RiVer
Yatta vs Tag
Nin' vs Volya
Khanage vs Smuff
PikaForLife vs BasiCS.nova
Elexiao vs Rolia
VinS vs Gregs
Vanaheim vs Serew
Purner vs. Kadaj
Homika vs Thomau5
Nack vs Pomme Sawyer
S1-14 vs Ether
AA-Amiin vs Sahone

WTFox 2 Top 24

Spoiler

ZeRo vs Player-1
Mew2King vs Fatality
Dabuz vs DarkShad
Mr. R vs Scatt
---
Jester vs Emperor Eevee
Mahgnittoc vs Winks
Brawlman1000 vs Ronin X
PK Blueberry vs Big Ox
Typo|CC vs Rython
Sandbag vs Danbi
Wizzrobe vs Cyan Can
Xanos vs Kid Carlton

 

[FeelMeUp]

More Pika than Sheik over at Neokan...Interesting.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Neokan top 64

Spoiler

Ixis vs Biglink
Greward vs Mahie
Deimos vs Starkorn
Rydle vs Uriko
Yoren vs DoubleC
OurOuzBek vs Nyrelhos
Enki vs Kido
Latzo vs Wari
Griffith vs C7A
Shido vs MT
Pefo vs Dazed
Soreru vs Fila
C.R.Z vs Gijsbeer
Anoer vs Krycken
Marcbri vs Tjuskar
Jila vs BJay
Gluttony vs Ogey
Hoe4u vs Slax
Scarhi vs Manko
Samplay vs RiVer
Yatta vs Tag
Nin' vs Volya
Khanage vs Smuff
PikaForLife vs BasiCS.nova
Elexiao vs Rolia
VinS vs Gregs
Vanaheim vs Serew
Purner vs. Kadaj
Homika vs Thomau5
Nack vs Pomme Sawyer
S1-14 vs Ether
AA-Amiin vs Sahone

WTFox 2 Top 24

Spoiler

ZeRo vs Player-1
Mew2King vs Fatality
Dabuz vs DarkShad
Mr. R vs Scatt
---
Jester vs Emperor Eevee
Mahgnittoc vs Winks
Brawlman1000 vs Ronin X
PK Blueberry vs Big Ox
Typo|CC vs Rython
Sandbag vs Danbi
Wizzrobe vs Cyan Can
Xanos vs Kid Carlton

damn that is a lot of pikachu

 

[bc1910]

Greninja I feel benefits more from a Mewtwo secondary than a pocket Cloud, mainly because of the Sheik matchup and because Mewtwo does fine against Greninja's other major losing character, Sonic. Pikachu is a similar matter, Mewtwo not only covers Sheik whom Pikachu has an awful record against but also Mario. Cloud just doesn't really help either of them.

Them Pokemon gotta stick together.

I would agree that Mewtwo is the better secondary for Greninja overall. Cloud does help, though, by virtue of being easy to use and one of Sonic's worst MUs. At this stage I wouldn't jump to say Cloud does better against Sonic than Rosalina but, again, he is significantly easier to use. Pocketing Cloud for opposing pocket Sonics isn't a bad idea.

In my opinion:

Greninja requires the option of a secondary for Sheik and Sonic.

It's worth having the option of a secondary for Rosalina, Diddy, Fox, Cloud and ROB (I'm not alone here as aMSa was knocked out of Pound by a ROB and Eddy has a fairly average record against LoNg0uw).

Mewtwo covers everyone there pretty well except Diddy, who I think is the main weakness of the Greninja/Mewtwo combo.

 

[Yonder]

damn that is a lot of pikachu

And lots of...solo Luigi.

Solo Luigi.

That an oxymoron in the current meta?

 

[Yikarur]

stream for neokan? I'm really sad that I didn't make it
it's sad that neokan is not really representing the meta with germany being absent but we just couldn't make it because of housing issues

 

[Luco]

@BlueberrySyrup or PK Blueberry as he's otherwise known is the Lucas who forced the Olimar switch out of @Dabuz (interested to hear your thoughts on this MU if you get the time). He said he also felt he could have won against Olimar too / it was close.

Don't know who the Jr was, could it have been Mahgnittoc?

 

[thehard]

ZeRo 3-0'd M2K at WTFOX 2.

 

[Ffamran]

stream for neokan? I'm really sad that I didn't make it
it's sad that neokan is not really representing the meta with germany being absent but we just couldn't make it because of housing issues

According to this article, http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-preview-neokan-party-2.438856/, they're using Dailymotion; I think this is the main stream and it's Smash 4 right now: http://games.dailymotion.com/event2give/x43nd0x. As of this posting, there's Sonic dittos between Ixis and Pero.

Also, streamed matches have been uploaded on Forward Smash on YouTube. There's even pools! Here's the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAGIr55p4Z6y-OLaO9wayOj9rTLpVnTGb. Was watching Homika vs. Thomau5 before checking here for Neokan #2 stuff.

Edit: Yeah, other stream is on Smash 4 doubles: http://games.dailymotion.com/Team-E2G/x4h4ax3.

Edit 2: Edit Harder:

Neokan top 64
Scarhi vs Manko

Manko plays Cloud. Well, he did in this pools match of Neokan #2 against Elexiao: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qyyLXkCID0&index=1&list=PLAGIr55p4Z6y-OLaO9wayOj9rTLpVnTGb. Also, I think it would be ironic if Kadaj was a Cloud main.

 

[Das Koopa]

Dabuz 3-2s ZeRo, but it doesn't mean much considering ZeRo got janked by Lylat game 4 when he had a comfortable lead/position.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Apparently what happened was Cloud's jab made him slide off lylat somehow while it was tilting at the same time.
This stage is so buggy, why Sakurai. You ruined this and Delfino so badly, how could this happen.

 

[thehard]

Anyone else find it funny Mr. R was talking up crossup bair > f-smash on twitter a couple of days ago and is already getting important kills with it?

 

[BunbUn129]

Mr. R 3-1's ZeRo and knocks him out of the tourney.

Edit: Mr. R goes Link vs Dabuz in game 1 of GF and gets 2-stocked.

 

[san.]

Anyone else find it funny Mr. R was talking up crossup bair > f-smash on twitter a couple of days ago and is already getting important kills with it?

This should've been made a normal option over a year ago since the properties of these back airs are common knowledge. The key is not to cross up with your movement, but hit the opponent with the front hitbox of your back air to bait the opponent into grabbing OoS.

 

[TurboLink]

So, anyone want to explain why Mr. R is playing as Link right now?

He went back to Sheik now. :o

Mr. R lost to Dabuz. Maybe he'll drop Sheik for Cloud or Diddy Kong.

 

[Djent]

Look Mr.R, it's great that you collected all the masks, but what you really need is more heart containers.

Also, it's becoming clearer that it's Sheik, not Diddy, who has a Rosalina problem.

 

[Kofu]

@BlueberrySyrup or PK Blueberry as he's otherwise known is the Lucas who forced the Olimar switch out of @Dabuz (interested to hear your thoughts on this MU if you get the time). He said he also felt he could have won against Olimar too / it was close.

Don't know who the Jr was, could it have been Mahgnittoc?

Assuming I've got the names right, Taiheita has beaten Atelier more than once in Japan, so this MU has gone on at a high level before and seems to be around even if not in Lucas's favor.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Wont lie for a brief moment I was hype to see Link in GF.
Then it was incredibly depressing.

 

[BunbUn129]

Dabuz defeats Mr. R 3-1, taking the tourney.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I almost believed that this was a disguised attempt to show Nintendo that Rosalina invalidates lower tiered characters, lol.



Mr. R apparently said this was a test run so that he didn't have to try it at EVO tho.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Dabuz 3-2s ZeRo, but it doesn't mean much considering ZeRo got janked by Lylat game 4 when he had a comfortable lead/position.

We take those? I know that ZeRo got janked, but it's a tournament set and Dabuz got the W. It's got to mean something lol.

 

[Jalil]

To be fair, Mr.r's link ain't all that.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Did Mr. R use Link the entire set or just game 1?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

w̶i̶s̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶d̶ ̶"̶m̶e̶l̶e̶e̶"̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶b̶a̶n̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶s̶m̶a̶s̶h̶ ̶4̶ ̶s̶t̶re̶a̶m̶s̶ ̶

Dabuz flexing on everyone atm. The matchup also looks rough for Sheik at the moment. He even made Cloud look pretty free.

Rosa up-airs her way up the tier list