Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[19_]

guys...
SALEM is playing bayo at smash and clash

Oh my lord
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments

 

[Nobie]

So I was doing a little more research on how much ledges hate Mewtwo's Teleport.

So you know how you don't auto-snap the ledge typically when grabbing the ledge a second time? That non-auto snap Teleport is far, far more likely to screw up. Basically, if you want to reduce your chances of bonking the stage, don't try to ledge stall too much.

 

[Huron]

Someone wanna explain the reasoning for Luigi, being B tier(and below Bowser), and Cloud and Meta Knight being top 4 as well as Jigglypuff and Falco being so low? This tier list just seems all over the map.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Someone wanna explain the reasoning for Luigi, being B tier(and below Bowser), and Cloud and Meta Knight being top 4 as well as Jigglypuff and Falco being so low? This tier list just seems all over the map.

It's Abadango's personal tier list. Don't put too much stock in it.

 

[Huron]

It's Abadango's personal tier list. Don't put too much stock in it.

oh ok that explains A LOT thanks lol

 

[Das Koopa]

We gotta DK vs. Bayonetta Grand Finals

oh boy

3-0

Bayonetta very clearly has a 6-4 at least against DK, the last match with Falcon look much more even.

 

[Huron]

It's Abadango's personal tier list. Don't put too much stock in it.

Oh one more thing. Where did you find that out? My friend refuses to believe its not official and wants "proof". So if you could link me to where you found that that would be really helpful

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Oh one more thing. Where did you find that out? My friend refuses to believe its not official and wants "proof". So if you could link me to where you found that that would be really helpful

Abadango tweeted it himself: https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/698035781160423424

 

[Huron]

Abadango tweeted it himself: https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/698035781160423424

thanks! i dont follow him so i didnt know.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I wonder.

How mobile do you think an ideal should be?

Should he try to build a fortress and stay in one place or should he be running around?

 

[Huron]

I wonder.

How mobile do you think an ideal should be?

Should he try to build a fortress and stay in one place or should he be running around?

stay moving so that you can be unpredictable and not get corned at the ledge, especially if the opponent has a reflector or good range

 

[De Wolfe]

You cant build a fortress with DHD, thats more Villagers/Pacmans thing. DHD is much more hit and run. If Gunmen had more health and if you could control which one came out, a fortress strategy would be much more viable for him.

 

[Sonicninja115]

People need to learn to DI her fthrow better. I can get Mario to live at 155% when fthrown from the edge of FD. Lots of kill throws at the edge hover around the mid 120s with ness being around 90.

Saying they lose to shield isnt accurate, but they CERTAINLY get less reward from a grab than the majority of the cast to the point that you can trade with oos punishes and possibly win.

Saying a throw gives you 'positional advantage' is just a euphemism for the throw being bad.

Thats like saying Ryus downsmash being good for damage racking. No, I want the damn move to kill below 160% when I clip someones recovery right on the ledge.

Let's look at Mewtwo's throws then. his Fthrow and Bthrow can both send the opponent relatively far off the ledge. These throws are mainly positioning, with Fthrow being good for 13% early game and Bthrow killing at 115% at the ledge. Mid game, however, these throws serve a vital purpose. After a throw, Mewtwo has time to fully charge an SB, or he can press the advantage. Off stage, few characters can beat Mewtwo consistently. He has a plethora of wide hitboxes and a very reliable recovery. His edge-guarding game is probably top 15-10.

Then we have Bayonetta, probably top 5 at Edge-guarding with multiple long lasting hitboxes, a powerful and fast Bair, as well as an easy spike set-up, WITH a move to force the opponent to either recover high or fall below the ledge. (Bullet Climax) Her off-stage game is greatly complemented by two throws which give positional advantage, and put the opponent into a situation were they could easily die at 30%. I love my positional throws.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Been at a Smashfest all night, a lot of Bayonetta being played by a friend and myself. Some things we're noticing:

Her nuetral isn't really that bad against most characters. She doesn't really have any go to blanket options that cover everything but she has a wide variety of tools that cover a lot of situations when used all together. Jab, ftilt and d tilt are good ranged pokes. Nair, fair and up tilt anti air well. Shad, witch time and witch twist deal with pressure quite nicely. Heel slide/abk punish baits and over extensions and are good for the occasional read if you're feeling bold. Down abk and spaced short hop bair pressure shields well. Bullet arts and climax help her zone and challenge approaches. Her grab isnt great but it does its job beating sheilds and she can get combos out of it at low percents.

She's fine in neutral. It's not amazing because she either has poor range, poor frame data or poor disjoint on every tool she has. But altogether I wouldn't call her nuetral a weakness.

Witch twist is pretty easy to sdi in long, obvious touch of death combos actually. Most of us were getting it pretty consistently by just mashing quarter circles down and out. Her combos generally do a lot of damage though. I also wonder if she has ways of responding to the sdi.

Her juggles and tools to catch landings are crazy good. Bullet arts up air on its own is very hard to deal with for many characters when landing because of the huge hitbox, low landing lag, and very high active frames. Abk and heel slide can chase people trying to land out to the side of her. Witch twist and up air have good hitboxes above her. Trying to land with an aerial can get witch timed. If she reads an air dodge she can punish hard with a smash or a big combo. She basically has a juggle vortex that pops you back up into more juggles similar to fox.

Her edgeguarding, ledge option coverage and off stage game is very good but people already know this by now.

I think she'll end up with moderate trouble killing when people learn the matchup. Unless we were missing something (which is totally possible) her death combos won't happen very often against players who know how to di abk, sdi witch twist, and tech down air. But her high damage output, edgeguarding, witch time, and fallback kill throw mitigate this. Her smash attacks are also good for kills if you can read something due their huge hitboxes, but they're risky.

She seems to struggle against large hitboxes, disjoints, small hurtboxes, and high mobility because it's harder to get in on these characters in nuetral. Good landing options as well as disjoint aerials challenge her juggles. Good, versatile recoveries help deal with her edgeguard game. Light and floaty characters seem to be able to escape her combos easier.

If you can deal damage and/or kill with throws that's very good against her because witch time becomes much less scary.

I think she's very good, perhaps top 10, something like 5 at best. I'm going to put a lot of time into her I think. But i highly doubt she's the best character in the game and I don't see any reason why she would destroy the meta or have a better matchup spread than the current top three. My opinion, anyway. Excited to see what top players can do with her.

 

[Nairo]

Nairo always buys into the new character hype. Like when he said he was gonna "stick" with Mewtwo.

Similarly, the future of the game is also always looking "bleak"

Lmao claims I always buy into the new character hype then please show me where I said I was going to stick with mewtwo, lucas, roy, and ryu since I buy into new character hype unless you are just speaking false info~ ^.^ I liked mewtwo when he came out but I never said he was going to be my new main, hes fun tho so I still use him time to time on my stream just like other characters that I find fun. CAN'T USE ALL THE CHARACTERS I LIKE IN A TOURNEY(only a few lol)

 

[Aunt Jemima]

your passive aggressiveness makes me think you're taking up maining MK after getting roofed by Abadango

 

[Shaya]

People on streams buying into new character hype seems like a natural by product of... trying to be entertaining while streaming.
Beyond that I don't think we need to be getting that annoyed over such comments, Nairo . You probably did give an impression at some point that you'd bring out some characters in tournament, that you have at least in some capacity, that's what makes you you~

No one's really expecting you to not be using ZSS in the near future until you... start using someone else for the foreseeable future
I always look forward to your break out non-main usages though, good luck tomorrow.

 

[Huron]

Shaya
can i ask why the 4BR tier list has luigi in D tier...or just some of the logic behind it being released two days before a major update?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Luigi is quite clearly not below Bowser.

 

[HoSmash4]

Shaya
can i ask why the 4BR tier list has luigi in D tier...or just some of the logic behind it being released two days before a major update?

because they did the voting in 1.13

 

[Nobie]

Theorycraft warning:

I think the solution to fighting Bayonetta, though it still won't be easy, is going to be really smart footsies and poking/counterpoking. Bayonetta has good burst movement but iffy frame data, and seems like a character whose momentum you just have to stuff. At the same time, she excels in disadvantage too, so just by process of elimination you're going to have to do a lot in the neutral game. Some characters are better at this. Some much, much worse. At the same time, her jab is slower than Ganondorf's, and her down tilt is decent but not amazing (for comparison Mewtwo's down tilt comes out faster, has longer range, and recovers more quickly). Witch Twist and Witch Time are things, but I don't think they're unsolvable problems, especially if you have a command grab in the latter case.

I think what I'm seeing from a lot of players on streams is an unwillingness to REALLY try and go toe to toe with Bayonetta in the footsies war when that might be what they need to do. Stick as close to her as your character wants, and engage in that conversation. Try to bait out Witch Time, try to stuff that jab. Give her too much breathing room and she builds up momentum again. Witch Time is scary of course, but it might be scaring opponents off a bit too much.

By the way, if people didn't check out Hooded's Ryu vs. Salem's Bayo from last night, they should: http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/v/44216611?t=4h55m0s

I'm looking forward to the arms race that's going to develop from that matchup.

 

[Marc]

Marc

Can you confirm?

In all seriousness, I'm wondering about how things were compiled per region and how you guys are going to go forward.

Smooth Criminal

Yeah, there will be a followup article within a few days with frequently asked questions, some regional differences and a more thorough look at certain characters.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Shaya
can i ask why the 4BR tier list has luigi in D tier...or just some of the logic behind it being released two days before a major update?

"Luigi in D Tier" sounds bad in a vacuum, but in the context of this tier list D Tier is more like B tier in a more "normal" list. He may be in D Tier but he's 16th out of 56 which isn't bad at all.

 

[Nairo]

People on streams buying into new character hype seems like a natural by product of... trying to be entertaining while streaming.
Beyond that I don't think we need to be getting that annoyed over such comments, Nairo . You probably did give an impression at some point that you'd bring out some characters in tournament, that you have at least in some capacity, that's what makes you you~

No one's really expecting you to not be using ZSS in the near future until you... start using someone else for the foreseeable future
I always look forward to your break out non-main usages though, good luck tomorrow.

Ay I just wanted to respond to the sarcasm in a snarky way I don't really care, I like to mess around a bit/kill time but I wasn't planning on actually having a (pointless) argument, Ismar will probably agree that ya its pointless. Thanks homie! Not sure who I'm going to use today, maybe a mix of both characters depending on who I face~

 

[UberMadman]

Ay I just wanted to respond to the sarcasm in a snarky way I don't really care, I like to mess around a bit/kill time but I wasn't planning on actually having a (pointless) argument, Ismar will probably agree that ya its pointless. Thanks homie! Not sure who I'm going to use today, maybe a mix of both characters depending on who I face~

I certainly hope you bust the Bayo at least a little bit. It feels like you have her tournament ready at this point in time, and I think matchup inexperience will net you some easy wins. Of course, don't let me make your decisions for you, but I personally believe that you could potentially win this with Bayo alone, (and of course you can always fall back on ZSS.)

 

[Linkshot]

Everything is relative, people keep thinking of things in a vacuum

Yes Ryus dsmash is good, but just because a move does damage and has knockback doesnt make it 'good', its just usable.

Seriously before people start calling moves good, they first need to identify what is bad.

For single-side hitting dsmashes he is competing with

Now either they are all average or some are good and some are bad. You literally can not have 2 'average' moves and 2 'good' moves because then the 'average' is actually somewhere in between, and the 'average' moves are therefore bad by definition.

So then, if Ryu's dsmash is good, which of the above dsmashes is bad? Remember at least one has to be and then Ryus dsmash must be equal to or better than the remaining ones.

The only point im trying to get across is that you can not call a move 'good' in this game unless you define what 'bad' is. Its the exact same reason why good cannot exist without evil. I am completely aware this is arguing semantics and I shouldn't even be bothering, it just annoys me when people are so quick to go 'lol clouds recovery is so bad, bottom 2 in the game' yet apparently his throws, which are all bad, somehow passes off as ok. We might as well argue that because cloud actually has a recovery which can work sometimes, it has a use, and therefore he has a decent recovery.

ugh

Going to have to entirely disagree. Relativity has little to no weight in Smash Bros.

Cloud's recovery is bad because it does not auto-snap the ledge (which means he loses to a hitbox sticking out) and it doesn't carry him high enough to survive if he gets hit below a 30-degree angle...not because Falco's has more distance, snap, and hitbox. It's bad because it doesn't reach the freaking stage.

Every recovery in 64 is bad except Pikachu's. This alone throws relativity out the window. Pikachu is the only character with a recovery move that carries him from the edge to the stage without being so slow and one-dimensional that it gets swatted away.

Ryu's dSmash deals 16% on a non-reactable frame, and slips into thin punish windows. It's a good move! The reason people don't use it is because Ryu can deal much more than 16% by chaining other moves together with the same initial speed. It's a good move overshadowed by the rest of Ryu's amazing tools. What ZSS and Mewtwo can do is completely irrelevant to what Ryu can do unless you're matching them up, and even then, dSmash vs dSmash isn't likely to come up.

Cloud's throws are good because, while he doesn't get straight extra damage off of them, you can still express damage -> Limit Charged x% as a combo, and it's a combo that works off of every throw and only gets stronger as the opponent's damage grows, which is generally the opposite of how throw combos work! He doesn't get straight kills until, say, 170% (not that Cloud has trouble juggling and boxing opponents to that % anyway), but he does eventually get a speed, power, and presence bonus that carries into the opponent's next stock if he doesn't burn a special.

So that's why it's not safe to just block against Cloud "even though he has no kill throws". He still gets a free Limit Break if you're at 130% and he throws you offstage.

 

[Wnyke]

Well I hope this idea hasn't been talked about, if so... then sorry for wasting a post.

Anyway from my perspective, doing "voting" based tier list will always be innacurate and leave people a feeling about some characters not being that bad/good, cause everyone put into consideration the results, potential and representation all together in their opinions and we don't know what kind of eeight each factor had...

So using that as a starting point, we could use 3 different tierlist... the first based on results, the second based on representation and the third on voting.

The result based tierlist would only take into account the top quarter population of the entire tournament (if it were a 100 people tournament, only up to top 25 would be considered as result relevant participants), and points are given to each player and then we divide them by the number of characters the player used... making characters that can be used without a secondary go higher in the list... characters that doesn't appear in top 1/4 may happen, making this effectively a viable character tierlist (maybe it would hurt people feelings, but the truth hurts some times)

About the 2nd list based on representation, this one would consider every player's character (s) in a tournament, how many sheiks entered, how many rosas... etc... not that hard, and we could use this information along the 1st tier list to make a more accurate placements...

Finally the 3rd tierlist would be vote based, so you can discuss the pro's and con's of a character... just as it is, but without the 'he/she/it has no results to backed him/her/it up' or the no one uses blah blah...

We could go even further with a 4th tierlist which consider only 'match ups' based on the full results of tournaments...

The difficult part would be to gather reliable data from TO, and also that not being a lot of extra work to do right in the middle of tournaments...

Well that was it, sure I'm not anyone to tell you what to do, but I was sharing my opinion... I hope I didn't disturb anyone with this... take care.

 

[R3D3MON]

Shaya
can i ask why the 4BR tier list has luigi in D tier...or just some of the logic behind it being released two days before a major update?

Umm....because he is not very good? His results at the highest levels was always poor (Con Con got 25th at EVO), even before the nerf, and after nerf his results/placings at locals and regionals are also starting to decline. I don't want to explain why luigi is not top tier, but I'll simplify what I said before:
Luigi post-nerf lost his greatest advantage - killing early and long combo strings from d-throw. His mobility is bad, he can be edgeguarded rather easily if you know how to counter the laggy side-b. He loses to characters with good zoning/fortress tools, which is why he struggles a lot against mega-man. All of this means his MU spread against top and high tiers at A and B are bad.
He probably should not be at D-tier, but at C-tier max. His results and weaknesses just doesn't cut it for him to be in high tier or top tier.
Also you can check out my post and G.Stache's post in the previous pages of this thread for more impressions/info on Luigi knowledge.

TL;DR The nerf killed the character's punish/combo meta :/

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Umm....because he is not very good? His results at the highest levels was always poor (Con Con got 25th at EVO), even before the nerf, and after nerf his results/placings at locals and regionals are also starting to decline. I don't want to explain why luigi is not top tier, but I'll simplify what I said before:
Luigi post-nerf lost his greatest advantage - killing early and long combo strings from d-throw. His mobility is bad, he can be edgeguarded rather easily if you know how to counter the laggy side-b. He loses to characters with good zoning/fortress tools, which is why he struggles a lot against mega-man. All of this means his MU spread against top and high tiers at A and B are bad.
He probably should not be at D-tier, but at C-tier max. His results and weaknesses just doesn't cut it for him to be in high tier or top tier.
Also you can check out my post and G.Stache's post in the previous pages of this thread for more impressions/info on Luigi knowledge.

TL;DR The nerf killed the character's punish/combo meta :/

He still does ridiculous damage off of a throw. He just doesn't have a kill confirm.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Theorycraft warning:

I think the solution to fighting Bayonetta, though it still won't be easy, is going to be really smart footsies and poking/counterpoking. Bayonetta has good burst movement but iffy frame data, and seems like a character whose momentum you just have to stuff. At the same time, she excels in disadvantage too, so just by process of elimination you're going to have to do a lot in the neutral game. Some characters are better at this. Some much, much worse. At the same time, her jab is slower than Ganondorf's, and her down tilt is decent but not amazing (for comparison Mewtwo's down tilt comes out faster, has longer range, and recovers more quickly). Witch Twist and Witch Time are things, but I don't think they're unsolvable problems, especially if you have a command grab in the latter case.

I think what I'm seeing from a lot of players on streams is an unwillingness to REALLY try and go toe to toe with Bayonetta in the footsies war when that might be what they need to do. Stick as close to her as your character wants, and engage in that conversation. Try to bait out Witch Time, try to stuff that jab. Give her too much breathing room and she builds up momentum again. Witch Time is scary of course, but it might be scaring opponents off a bit too much.

By the way, if people didn't check out Hooded's Ryu vs. Salem's Bayo from last night, they should: http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/v/44216611?t=4h55m0s

I'm looking forward to the arms race that's going to develop from that matchup.

So basically...ACTUALLY playing the game?

RIP Yoshi, Mario and Ness mains.

 

[Yikarur]

So basically...ACTUALLY playing the game?

RIP Yoshi, Mario and Ness mains.

This is probably a joke but what do you mean?.. (I don't understand why my char is rip)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Luigi is 50:50 for Ryu imo. I'm at school RN so I'm just going to give tiny notes.

Essentially this is an uphill battle for Ryu until he gets rage. Focus Attack really saves him here. His reward at low % isn't as good as Luigi's because he's a fastfaller and Luigi's a floaty with a sex kick. Luigi just struggles really hard to kill and Ryu gets angry and dragon punches him in the nose. Luigi wins neutral most of the time because his fireballs are better than Ryu's, and any MU where Ryu approaches is generally not a great one. If Ryu gets the upper hand in neutral he usually wins because his CQC is way better (obviously). Both characters dump on each other offstage though.

No opinion of Luigi/Bayonetta yet.

You are going to need to break this down for me seriously.

How the hell is it even when Ryus buttons crap on Luigis, he lives longer and has legit kill confirms.

Luigi has mid range fireball pressure.

THAT'S IT

Yikarur

The general player base for those characters are not known for having strong conceptual understanding of traditional footsies. Mario players especially. Its usually just short hop and press this really good button which i know yields good reward/positioning. Mario Dair for example.

There are exceptions of course. Ally with Mario, The Wall with Yoshi, and FOW with Ness to name a few.

But on the flip side most Ryu players don't know how to play footsies either, soooooo...maybe its just the community?

 

[Ffamran]

Then we have Bayonetta, probably top 5 at Edge-guarding with multiple long lasting hitboxes, a powerful and fast Bair, as well as an easy spike set-up, WITH a move to force the opponent to either recover high or fall below the ledge.

Nitpick: Bayonetta's Bair is not fast; it's frame 11... Oh, wait, I play Falco and Ike.

Hitbox-wise, it has the same sweet-spot and sour-spot as ZSS's, but the sweet-spot does 13% like Fox's instead of ZSS's 12%. Knockback is 12 base and 106 growth to Fox's 30 base and 88 growth and ZSS's 42 base and 98 growth. Fox's is going to be more generous in terms of hitboxes and his is faster than Bayonetta's at frame 9, but slower than ZSS's 8, but he has shorter range than both of theirs and higher landing lag at 15 to Bayonetta's 12 and ZSS's 11. With ZSS, she's probably not going to stale hers as much as Bayonetta and Fox will who all tend to use them as part of early to late combos or in the case of Fox, baiting which has a side effect of hitting and stalling it while ZSS usually uses it from a kill setup. Drawback with hers is that it has 1 less active frame than Fox's and 2 less than Bayonetta's. Yes, Bayonetta's Bair lasts 4 frames. Kill power? I don't really know. The first time people heard about it, it was said to be weaker than ZSS's... Considering the higher growth and +1% on the sweet-spot, it might be stronger? Then again, ZSS's base is a bit high for a Bair; 40 base puts it on par with Ganondorf's Bair base. Also, apparently Toon Link's Bair has a base of 117 and growth of 18... I feel like those show be switched.

 

[bc1910]

The community doesn't understand footsies.

Mario and Ness are just braindead easy so it shows more when those players win, with no understanding of actually how or why they won.

To be fair to Yoshi, he's one of the more difficult characters to use at a high level.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

You are going to need to break this down for me seriously.

How the hell is it even when Ryus buttons crap on Luigis, he lives longer and has legit kill confirms.

Luigi has mid range fireball pressure.

THAT'S IT

Yikarur

The general player base for those characters are not known for having strong conceptual understanding of traditional footsies. Mario players especially. Its usually just short hop and press this really good button which i know yields good reward/positioning. Mario Dair for example.

There are exceptions of course. Ally with Mario, The Wall with Yoshi, and FOW with Ness to name a few.

But on the flip side most Ryu players don't know how to play footsies either, soooooo...maybe its just the community?

Yes it is the community. I hope Bayonetta will make certain stuff mandatory for high level competition instead of optional.

 

[Megamang]

In the same vein as no one really wins with shield, footsies dont directly yield reward. Once you are skilled with these tools they lead to wins, but until then you die for trying so it only prevails at a higher level.

Plus characters like mario benefits a lot from constant pressure, as he lacks kill confirms the aerial pressure is important for landing kills.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Nitpick: Bayonetta's Bair is not fast; it's frame 11... Oh, wait, I play Falco and Ike.

Hitbox-wise, it has the same sweet-spot and sour-spot as ZSS's, but the sweet-spot does 13% like Fox's instead of ZSS's 12%. Knockback is 12 base and 106 growth to Fox's 30 base and 88 growth and ZSS's 42 base and 98 growth. Fox's is going to be more generous in terms of hitboxes and his is faster than Bayonetta's at frame 9, but slower than ZSS's 8, but he has shorter range than both of theirs and higher landing lag at 15 to Bayonetta's 12 and ZSS's 11. With ZSS, she's probably not going to stale hers as much as Bayonetta and Fox will who all tend to use them as part of early to late combos or in the case of Fox, baiting which has a side effect of hitting and stalling it while ZSS usually uses it from a kill setup. Drawback with hers is that it has 1 less active frame than Fox's and 2 less than Bayonetta's. Yes, Bayonetta's Bair lasts 4 frames. Kill power? I don't really know. The first time people heard about it, it was said to be weaker than ZSS's... Considering the higher growth and +1% on the sweet-spot, it might be stronger? Then again, ZSS's base is a bit high for a Bair; 40 base puts it on par with Ganondorf's Bair base. Also, apparently Toon Link's Bair has a base of 117 and growth of 18... I feel like those show be switched.

It kills at 140% center stage apparently.

I like it as an edge-guarding tool mainly because of it's kill power, but also because it is extremely simple and quick to recover afterwards. One ABK and you are back on the stage, ready to continue edge-guarding or wait for their respawn invincibility.

 

[Huron]

Luigi is quite clearly not below Bowser.

my bad i meant i conused the abadango list with th br one

 

[R3D3MON]

He still does ridiculous damage off of a throw. He just doesn't have a kill confirm.

I really dislike when people cite things like this as a reason for Luigi being "high tier". I already mentioned that he has good damage racking abilities, but his inability to kill severely limits him. Luigi is floaty, and can get juggled very easily. For example, watch some games between Boss and Mr. Eric. R.O.B's ridiculous up-air does wonders against Luigi. His zoning game is limited to fireballs, and he has to approach. He has bad time offstage. This means that Luigi can die very early to things that would not kill other high tiers, who are mostly fast fallers or have very good fortress abilities (rosa & luma).

Just because he is good at damage racking does not make him high tier. Many characters that are in high/mid tier have similarly good or even better damage racking abilities than Luigi (or outright kill confirms at low/mid %). What sets him apart from the low tiers and mid tiers is his great CQC abilities and relatively simple gameplan that allows people to adapt better/quickly to different player's playstyles, similar to Ness and Mario. This explains his D-Tier position in the 4BR tier list, although I personally think that he should be bumped up to C-tier. However, he lost tools after the nerf that makes him a high tier character (his ability to kill early), and his weaknesses that existed since release of this game compounds him into position at high mid-tier at best. So, 4BR's tier list is not wrong.

 

[Huron]

Umm....because he is not very good? His results at the highest levels was always poor (Con Con got 25th at EVO), even before the nerf, and after nerf his results/placings at locals and regionals are also starting to decline. I don't want to explain why luigi is not top tier, but I'll simplify what I said before:
Luigi post-nerf lost his greatest advantage - killing early and long combo strings from d-throw. His mobility is bad, he can be edgeguarded rather easily if you know how to counter the laggy side-b. He loses to characters with good zoning/fortress tools, which is why he struggles a lot against mega-man. All of this means his MU spread against top and high tiers at A and B are bad.
He probably should not be at D-tier, but at C-tier max. His results and weaknesses just doesn't cut it for him to be in high tier or top tier.
Also you can check out my post and G.Stache's post in the previous pages of this thread for more impressions/info on Luigi knowledge.

TL;DR The nerf killed the character's punish/combo meta :/

i see...thanks for the info. Ill try to follow the tournaments more so i dont have to ask these questions as often.