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No problem. I just don't like how Luigi is either overrated as hell by some people, or underrated as hell by other people. Too many people cite wrong things as his "strengths" and weaknesses, and that annoys me a bit.
Baby_Sneak
wasn't saying/implying he was top tier, or anything like that.
@DunnoBro I figured you'd be the best person to address this.I wonder.
How mobile do you think an idealshould be?
Should he try to build a fortress and stay in one place or should he be running around?
I never said he didn't tho. Also, the nerf actually took away his damage racking abilities early game because of the significant decrease in base knockback. Against fast fallers, they can just DI down and shield any one of luigi's aerials and ground attacks except for up-smash and down smash. He also has up-throw, but that is a mixup option. His early % damage racking game is limited to mixups instead of guranteed combos, and all of these mixups can be avoided by conventional defensive options. The nerf really did not do justice to this character.But I don't think it fallacious to point out that, yes, Luigi does have great reward off of grabs (still) and hitconfirms.
Smooth Criminal
I think fireballs would be good to use for approaching Ryu. I would probably try not to approach Ryu with rising aerials since his up-tilt is godly. However falling nair also sounds like a good mixup option (with proper spacing). I would also incorporate pivot f-tilt and pivot grabs during neutral for shield pressure options.
Yeah, landing a combo as Bayo and avoiding it as the respective opponent is a mix of good DI and combo mixups.Here's Komorikiri's Bayonetta:
Notice how not one single kill is set up by her combos. Nagahari also did pretty well considering he's been out of the tournament scene for almost 5 years.
You said his nerfs killed his combo game. I'm correcting that mistake. I'm not saying he's high tier. I'm saying he's still good, which it seemed like you were trying to argue against.
Yeah it did kill his combo game, somewhat. I said that the nerf killed his long combo strings and the ability to combo at very low percents. Also, like I said in a previous post, he lost a lot of aerial combo options that he had before nerf, and in return he got....nothing. The extremely low base knockback and high knockback scaling works against him because his greatest combo tools are his aerials. In other words, he cannot just chain long aerial strings into regrabs and such because the low base knockback allows people to escape fair easier at low percents or just DI down and shield or roll away for fast fallers.
That completely makes sense tho. Why would you not go for the most optimal option? Luigi gets the most out of his grabs because he is a grappler/half-grappler, so basing your neutral around getting grabs and setting yourself up so that you can get grabs was and still is playing smart. Of course there are other ways to play Luigi, but the method I mentioned worked and still works if you can do it successfully and consistently.
People not liking it does not necessarily mean that it is bad. Similar to MK's dash attack or boost kick, people complain about Luigi's grab game because they have no idea how to counter it in the first place. Complaining about Luigi players going for grabs is like complaining about every other "broken" combo, string, 50/50, kill setup, etc. in the game. People really should stop hating characters or players for playing optimally (Dabuz comes to mind...).
Well first off footsies is one part of neutral. Luigi in general has below average footsies due to overall poor mobility. He has a few really strong options like his cyclone which can beat alot of buttons head on, but is very unsafe. His jab is amazing for footsies though. Fast for its range. Recovers fast too. Overall tho this aspect of his game is a little lacking. He lacks tools to REACTIVELY counter poke his opponents. This is why he needs his fireball. To control that space in front of him and set up for grabs. Luigis footsies are gonna be more about just controlling the set space on front him with jabs, fairs and bairs and trying to slow down the game so he can get grabs.
Also don't forget dash dancing and dancetrotting. False makes excellent usage of dancetrotting with Luigi because Luigi has above-average burst mobility and dash (not run). Also Con Con makes really smart usage of dashdancing for baits and movement mixups, along with cyclone (although this is highly punishable if the opponent holds shield because tornado is laggy).
Well, I kinda also showed that Luigi goes even or beats a majority of the high tiers. It's the big three (Rosa, ZSS, and Sheik) that shut him out from a high tier position. Having a bad MU against Mega Man, Toon Link, and debatably Pac Man/Samus would be fine, it's just that a Luigi needs to know how to handle ZSS, Sheik, and Rosa very well to have the best possible odds. And even then, it's still around -1 against those three when played super optimally (AKA, what I like to call the Lame-eegi way)
R3D3MON
Yeah it does. Weird thing is how some people still believe Luigi to be top/high tier, when it is clearly shown that he isn't. I'm still salty af about his nerfs tho :/. Poor Luigi can't get kill confirms, but other top tiers with less weaknesses can? Sakurai plz. However that's just my salt.
Low: It's a toss-up but I'll go for Mewtwo. Both representation and results are coming his way. People are starting to respect his frame data, range, and confirms.
Neither Link nor Lucas have any business in low tier imo, although Link is overshadowed by TL.
I predict PSimg is going to be a needed requirement for playing Luigi.
None of them because they're all too busy being completely invalidated by Bayonetta, Sheik, ZSS, and Cloud
is super underated. The guys has some really good tools, but nobody is using him. All these tier lists with him in the bottom-bottom tier makes me cringe. He's the only character I know that has gotten really good buffs but has moved virtually no where from his spot before. Just like my other mains (lol), the stigmas surrounding the heavyweight status prevent anybody from really acknowledging him. They just write him off as another crappy heavy. I think he's a mid low tier among the likes of 
I definitely agree with you about Lucas. I think Lucas may have the most potential of the whole cast to move up and I'm kind of shocked about where he wound up. His buffs during the summer were significant and then he got even more notable buffs in December (you know... like making his tether grab the best in the game, reducing the lag on all his aerials, increasing the range of all his tilts, and increasing the hitboxes of all his aerials... you know, no big deal apparently). The problem is that his representation is really bad and I'd be willing to put him in the bottom ten of characters that actually show up at tournaments.
on a tier list.
Agreed. He's very underestimated but still has crippling weaknesses against some high tiers... Aside from his garbage aerial speed he's got good frame data, rock smash, and some pretty fantastic OoS options. But he's a big target, and can be easily comboed. Definitely can tank hits like a champ as well.
Who does Cloud invalidate? I'd personally replace Cloud with Rosa because Rosa does shut down a good number of characters. This is one of the things that kills me about Bowser Jr's recent buffs because, although they were desperately needed, they don't really matter against Rosa. To further emphasize that the dream is dead for that character, Bayo is basically a parting middle finger from Sakurai to every heavy weight in the game so his chances of ever getting out of low tier pretty much died a fiery death unless somehow another patch happens.
Emblem Lord
Buff dumps need to drastically improve a character's KO options (Meta Knight, Robin), neutral game (Mewtwo) or both (Ike) to have a significant effect on their tier position.
Emblem Lord
said about the game revolving around having a strong neutral and strong KO conversions. If your character lacks either of those, they're in trouble. Equally, buffs that don't strongly affect either of those are inconsequential.
