Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[R3D3MON]

This sonic is one of the smartest I've seen. Definitely showing the potential of optimal bait and punish play. 6WX take notes please lol.

 

[Smog Frog]

being a main myself i'm studying this **** really hard.

also all this waiting is making me tense idk about you guys

 

[|RK|]

Ally - LordMix 3-2, it was extremely close. Great job by LordMix

Damn. He backed up his ****-talk hella hard.

 

[Tizio Random]

Ally wins 3-1 against Wrath with Cloud. Other than the obvious character switch I noticed Ally adapting well to Wrath's strategy. You have to play lame sometimes

 

[my_T]

This might be the best performance out of all the super heavyweight solo mains to date.

@LordMix putting his money where his mouth is

 

[Illuminose]

cloud v sonic is a bad matchup, def sonic's worst by far.

good **** to wrath tho, well-played the entire tournament, dumped on ally's mario and was going toe-to-toe with nairo in one of nairo's strongest matchups. lordmix showed up hella strong too although he's still an emotional *****...respect for his play, 0 for his attitude. he was screaming and visibly salty every time he lost and cocky when he won, what a kid.

 

[my_T]

Ally wins 3-1 against Wrath with Cloud. Other than the obvious character switch I noticed Ally adapting well to Wrath's strategy. You have to play lame sometimes

I wouldn't call it adaptation.

More like adoption.

 

[Vyrnx]

LordMix barely losing to Ally is basically the saddest this game has made me. I can't even imagine what the reactions would have been, lol. He's really exciting to watch.

 

[BunbUn129]

Nairo takes the tourney with a 3-2 over Ally.

 

[Das Koopa]

Since no one ever posted full results for Sumabato:

Spoiler: Sumabato 10

1) Earth
2) Sigma
3) HIKARU ()
4) Mangalitza ()
5) Tsu~
5) Nasubi
7) Taiheita
7) Kie
9) Fuwa
9) YuriAIR
9) Tatsutsuyo
9) Ri-ma
13) Atelier
13) Oisiitofu
13) Hatsuyuki
13) Eda

NOTE: This is Category 1 by Das Koopa 's standards. For his sake I only included characters that have confirmed game wins.

i actually have it listed as category 2, it's just that 9B/Komo bustered out lol

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You should list it as whichever category is the "weaker" one imo.

 

[Das Koopa]

Momocon Top 16

1st: Nairo
2nd: Ally ,
3rd: Wrath
4th: LordMix
5th: Vinnie ,
5th: Mew2King
7th: Mr. E
7th: VoiD
9th: 6WX
9th: Fatality
9th: BigLou
9th: Seagull Joe
13th: Xanos
13th: Rango ,
13th: TheReflexWonder
13th: Neos

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Honestly, today shows how hard it is to be consistent, and how far match-up knowledge can take you in this game. We have had two players who have not really made a big name for themselves outside of their region reaching top 4 in a tournament which had Nairo, Ally, Mew2King, Void, Vinnie, 6wx, Scatt, and Fatality. Both of them beating multiple top 50 players (LordMix almost taking out 3 top 20s even). This was an amazing run by both players. Looking at the names, who expected them to top 8? Let alone top 4 (and almost top 3!?).

 

[Das Koopa]

If people wanted evidence of Minnesota being good, Skorpio (Robin main PR'd 4th) is in top 8 at Combo Breaker.

 

[Djent]

i actually have it listed as category 2, it's just that 9B/Komo bustered out lol

You should list it as whichever category is the "weaker" one imo.

Yeah, the entrant count was a little bit below 200 and a few top names were missing.

 

[Yonder]

I know im looking forward to those Bowser matches on YouTube. Is it hard to accept Bowser can be more than lower mid tier? He has decent mobility, power, an incredibly good side b, best pivot grab, an incredibly versatile u throw, great post up b, great flame thrower, above average tilts, good damage output, and rage really works in his favor. His dair is really bad though (Cloud's dair kills earlier wtf?) Bair , although having like 19% and power, has a puny sweetspot only really obtainable out of u throw. His disadvantage is wretched and he is still overwhelmed by faster characters who can juggle him.

I think he is decent. For me, easily the 2nd best super weight behind DK, being better than Charizard and DDD. Now that Bowser has gotten some results, the statement is more solidified. I would put him in middle mid, with room to grow into the upper mid. Probably not further than that though because he lacks a more effective ding dong like DK or his superior aerials and arguably better tilts and serial mobility.


One random point on super weights, I hate what DK has become in this game when 100% of his game plan relies on ding dong kills. Don't believe me? Check out Pound 2016, there is not a single kill that doesn't come from ding dong. At least every other character has more than one usable kill option. Mario has...3.

DK is lower high, but for an annoying reason on overly simplistic and linear gameplay. If ding dong took a nerf, I think he would be next to Bowser.

 

[Trifroze]

I think it's more frustrating than anything to witness a match where one player is at around 60%, racks up the opponent's damage from a similar percent all the way to 150%+ without getting hit once, but can't kill them because they're just that heavy, and now after all of this they are literally just as even as they were before.

Once the "mid tier doing well!!" -hype wears off almost everyone will probably feel this way.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Speaking of tournament results there's also Agon Flawless Strike that should be mentioned. I don't know the exact character usage but I assume that @Yikarur will post it eventually. Entrants were somewehre between 80 and 100.

1st cyve - Diddy, Mewtwo
2nd quiksilver - ZSS
3rd BluB - Bayonetta
4th wusi - Fox
5th Eddy - Greninja
5th Jbandrew - MK, Luigi, Sheik
7th Sodrek - Fox, Cloud
7th Light - Sheik, Mario
9th Sillintor - I think this guy plays Link
9th Clade - Lucas
9th Suishomaru - plays Bowser jr but idk if he went solo
9th Long0uw - Cloud
13th Purple~H - Cloud
13th Biggad - Corrin
13th Kunai KazeKun - Toon Link
13th Yoh - Ike

Videos can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYkLkcUZQJOM0SW0NJKGkHQ/videos

Edit: the whole thing happened in germany in case you don't know.

 

[Das Koopa]

Heavies are so heavily disadvantaged in landing/ledge options and are such combo food that I have no problem with grab kill confirms (ding dong & the like) and rage abuse. It's the only practical way of making heavies usable imo.

 

[ARISTOS]

I mean, isn't that how it should be?

In other fighting games, the trade-off for playing a slower character is that you get to do massive damage when you do get in. The problem has been that this hasn't been translated well into Smash, with heavies usually struggling to get in and then once they do not having the reward for having done so. Rage, ding-dongs, etc. seem to have been brought in specifically to make heavies functional

 

[my_T]

One major hole in bowser and DK's uthrow>uair

it only works at specific percents and rage will change the window depending on how much rage you have. Once you're past the window it becomes noticeably harder to kill, especially for DK because he doesn't have as much raw kill power as bowser

 

[C0rvus]

Doesn't grounded cargo up throw into up air become a 50/50 after Ding Dong percents? I've heard Riot say something to that effect.

 

[Djent]

Seems like wusi usually outplaces Sodrek whenever I tune in. How strong is his case for Best EU?

 

[my_T]

Doesn't grounded cargo up throw into up air become a 50/50 after Ding Dong percents? I've heard Riot say something to that effect.

Yes, but theirs a small window for that as well and jumping almost always gets you out of harms way.

and it's not like there's a high chance of getting the grab. Their balanced in a way to make it difficult to get the grab in the first place

It's nowhere near as strong as sheiks 50/50 because it was relatively easy for her to get the grab

 

[Nobie]

Good stuff to @LordMix for getting so far.

As abrasive as his attitude was in this thread, in a way it's appropriate for a competitor. When you believe you're the greatest, you're more likely to carry that mentality into your matches and achieve more.

Also, re: forward throw talk that I started, the more I think about ti the more I see only the Pits use it with any real consistency. Bayonetta usually would end stocks much earlier. Bowser has up throw combos and flying slam as alternatives. As mentioned, it's the worst of Lucas's kill throws.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Is Yoshi highly overrated? I don't even think he has tournament results to justify top 20 let alone top 15. Sure he has great frame data but seems to struggle highly with killing. What exactly about him makes people suspect he has potential?

 

[HoSmash4]

Seems like wusi usually outplaces Sodrek whenever I tune in. How strong is his case for Best EU?

Wusi doesnt attend as much as Sodrek.

I wouldnt say theres too much but Sodrek definitely has the better results. Its his first time placing outside top 3

 

[C0rvus]

Forward throw is Wario's best kill throw. It's more of a stock cap or a crutch, though. Wario should ideally be getting edgeguards, and I see Reflex use it just to get certain characters off the stage, not caring how stale it gets. So, I guess its mileage depends on the matchup and how realistically you can edgeguard an opponent.

----

Yoshi isn't top 15. He's a character with good attributes but he lacks reliable kill setups and much of a grab/throw game. I think he has some passable results and some strong players behind him (Raptor, Yikarur, The Wall, etc.) He does okay. I feel like he has ways to optimize and while his players are good, he kinda lacks a top level player. So his exact strength remains be known.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Is Yoshi highly overrated? I don't even think he has tournament results to justify top 20 let alone top 15. Sure he has great frame data but seems to struggle highly with killing. What exactly about him makes people suspect he has potential?

Do people think he's top 15 now? At best he's fringe top 20, more likely somewhere in the generic mid tier blob.

 

[adom4]

If people wanted evidence of Minnesota being good, Skorpio (Robin main PR'd 4th) is in top 8 at Combo Breaker.

Now if only Ganon the beast would go out of state.

 

[Y2Kay]

If people wanted evidence of Minnesota being good, Skorpio (Robin main PR'd 4th) is in top 8 at Combo Breaker.

There #1 player is greninja main.

If only he'd actually show up to some regional or national so I could really gauge how good he was.

 

[Ninety]

I think it's more frustrating than anything to witness a match where one player is at around 60%, racks up the opponent's damage from a similar percent all the way to 150%+ without getting hit once, but can't kill them because they're just that heavy, and now after all of this they are literally just as even as they were before.

Once the "mid tier doing well!!" -hype wears off almost everyone will probably feel this way.

Heavies have been consistently **** across Smash history. If being heavy is -gasp- an advantage for once, then world's smallest violin to the fast and light top tiers not being able to kill them easily. You say it's frustrating for a heavyweight to be able to kill earlier and die later? Well it's a hell of a lot more frustrating for heavies to have their **** kicked in by enemies they can't tag or avoid.

This is one of the reasons I'm cool with rage. It benefits superheavies over conventional light top tiers, and the fatties have damn well earned a break.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nobody overrates Yoshi anymore. In fact, it seems hat people are more inclined to underrate him now.

 

[bc1910]

Rage is a big thing keeping Mewtwo in check right now too. Being so light he rarely gets to benefit from it, and the middleweights with good stock cap throws (Greninja, Sonic, Corrin) can kill Mewtwo with their throws only slightly after he can kill with his.

 

[Y2Kay]

Rage is a big thing keeping Mewtwo in check right now too. Being so light he rarely gets to benefit from it, and the middleweights with good stock cap throws (Greninja, Sonic, Corrin) can kill Mewtwo with their throws only slightly after he can kill with his.

Yeah rage is a *****.

But I play Lucario too so I won't complain.

 

[Man Li Gi]

There #1 player is greninja main.

If only he'd actually show up to some regional or national so I could really gauge how good he was.

ShinJoebi is there and IIRC he's the number one there.

Doesn't grounded cargo up throw into up air become a 50/50 after Ding Dong percents? I've heard Riot say something to that effect.

Grounded cargo throw to double jump uair works. Grounded cargo throw to bait AD, then uair also works.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I think it's more frustrating than anything to witness a match where one player is at around 60%, racks up the opponent's damage from a similar percent all the way to 150%+ without getting hit once, but can't kill them because they're just that heavy, and now after all of this they are literally just as even as they were before.

Once the "mid tier doing well!!" -hype wears off almost everyone will probably feel this way.

Sounds like nearly every heavy in every other fighting game, except in smash context.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Just a question, who legitimately tries to 20xx their characters anymore?

 

[Thinkaman]

Just a question, who legitimately tries to 20xx their characters anymore?

Only those who are committed to maximizing their meta and balance their character honesty with their X-Factor.

It all depends on the neutral game, but also jumpsquats and matchup consistency against Greninja, Ike, and ESAM.

 

[Aaron1997]

Some French tourney happen today. http://gameslines.challonge.com/SmashDown6
I'm not sure how good these players are but...

Spoiler: Top 10

1. Deimos
2. Scarhi
3. Melty | Bjay
4. STMG
5. Glutonny
5. VinS
7. Dazed
7. KYDragon
9. Anoer
9. Kido