Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Teshie U]

Cant wait for people to stop thinking Ryu's overpowered confirm game is hype when the entire community ******* about KO setups at 130 and Bayonetta.

 

[Charoite]

I wouldn't say its particularly realistic.

There'd be more competition at a national/major. More high/top level players. Element of surprise only works for so long, once one or two drop to a surprise character word can spread as can advise pretty darn quickly.

I could see Bowser winning a Regional with the element of surprise on his side. I think that's about his cap however.

(Just to clarify, I wouldn't consider this tournament a national/major. Its a regional with some big names showing up to be sure though)

@ Sonic vs Mario talk: End of the day, if you have to play a certain way to win a MU, that's how you play it. You don't care how it looks.

Is more important account to what players the character won, the fact that LordMix won set against two top sheik in the same tournament should tell us something about the character, only a handful of characters has accomplished that type of upset:.

 

[Illusion.]

Das Koopa Will you be posting the top 16 for CATI and using it in the data you collect?

 

[Chalice]

Man Trela makes vs look like a 70:30 match up. Larry's Fox got skinned and was used to replace his Ryu's karate gi omfg

Also, that on Game 1. When the VODs are uploaded will they have to be flagged for animal cruelty?

 

[Das Koopa]

CATI had exactly 100 entrants so yes, here

Come and Take it 3 (May 27th-May 28th) (Texas) (100 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Trela
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: Karna
4th: JaySon
5th: KJ
5th: Mew^
7th: Whiteout
7th: Gnes
9th: AeroLink
9th: Gova
9th: Savage
9th: Jerm
13th: King Lucy IV
13th: Castro
13th: ThisGuy
13th: GrimTurtle

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's a D3 out of nowhere. O_o

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Just learned there's two forms of the advantageous state; tactical and positional. Tactical is like bayonetta, bowser, DK style; lots of % given and it really shows you're getting really scrapped up. Positional is like Marth, cloud, pit, Roy, shulk style; they put you in positions where their range destroys any of your buttons and bully you off the stage and stuff. You can't see the punishment, but you can feel it.

 

[C0rvus]

That's the same Dedede that took a set off of Trela recently. So not too unexpected. He seems quite capable.

Edit: Bowser Jr. tho

 

[Big-Cat]

Sheik does win versus Bowser. But Bowser needs literally 3 throws and some change to take a stock. And ironically, it's not like he has Ganon T-Rex range. Bowsers pivot grab is like half of FD.

Can we stop with this crap? This is not even close. All those gifs you've seen are actually extended hitboxes just as Bowser grabs. Now stop.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Ryu is uhh...something else. Man, Trela kinda tore through Larry the two sets they played. I think a lot of that can be credited to Trela understanding the MU much better than Larry, seeing as Texas is full of Fox players and SoCal doesn't have any Ryu players near the caliber of Trela's play. Though the character is still ridiculous, I mean you'll watch someone combo him for like 30-40% or so, and then Trela gets two or three hits in and the game is practically even. Kinda funny how he got all this attention almost a year after he was released, despite not being touched in the patches. Honestly, my only real issue with the guy is his utilt trapping fast-fallers. I know it can be SDI'd, but it's a little goofy in my opinion, seeing how it leads into one of the best moves in the game. Just a minor complaint. Curious to see what the community is going to start saying about him though, where will the bandwagon lead us this time?

 

[Nu~]

Kinda happy to see both Fatality and Mr.E taking down Mega Man.
Maybe this will make some of the overly optimistic mega man mains a little more cautious about calling him a high tier (I've even seen claims like 5th or 6th best...) just yet.

 

[L9999]

>People talk about Swordies and their recovery
>No one mentions Swordspider

It is understandable that people forget Swordspider. I mean who uses that ****, eh?
Stone Scabbard is bad, AA is good distance wise but easy to stop and SL is like Ike's but FAR easier to edgeguard due to free fall after hit). What is SSD? Unless you have a Counter. Counter destroys his recovery as badly as Ike's.

Masochists like me. Stone Sccabard isn't a bad recovery move. It's complete garbage. And Airborne Assault on top of that its super slow. You can gimp Swordspider asleep, counters aren't the problem.

Also, now that I saw that 9th, how is Bayonetta playing now? Are we going to kiss her feet again in a forseeable future or she is where MK is now?

 

[Jams.]

Serious post about Wrath now. It was honestly unexpected (and unfortunately unpleasant) to see such a defensive Sonic, since his strongest representatives have moved toward tempered aggression. I don't recall seeing anyone play like that since the StaticManny of old. However, I feel like StaticManny's camping focused on using Sonic's mobility to run away from the opponent; on the other hand, Wrath's camping is centered around creating a low commitment threat by continuously using shield canceled Spin Dash, and leaving his opponent guessing when he'll release it. This style honestly seems incredibly difficult to deal with if the opposing character has no consistent or high reward tool for dealing with Spin Dash and shield mix-ups, and I could see it being optimal Sonic play in many MUs. If that is the case, you would basically be playing a large number of guessing games to try and call out Spin Dash until you build a big enough lead such that this style becomes unfeasible; Sonic holds all the cards in this scenario.

Also, I'm surprised Larry's DK lost so badly to Trela. DKWill beat Venom fairly handily at GOML last weekend, and while Trela is stronger than Venom, Venom is no slouch with Ryu. Larry just was not able to land grabs, and spent most of the match in DK's horrid disadvantageous state. I personally feel this is a decent MU for DK, since he's able to space outside of Ryu's effective range with his tilts and bair, and can pivot grab approaching aerials given Ryu's very committal jumps. I think @Emblem Lord said something about this MU being good for DK as well, and he'd probably be able to enunciate it much better and more accurately than I can.

 

[paperchao]

Wraths sonic really shows how abusive spin cancels can be when trying to approach, this tool could turn sonic into a monster

 

[Mario766]

Larry doesn't know how to play against Ryu with DK.

Him getting triple down air spiked shows that easily.

 

[Das Koopa]

Leo dominated Hail Smash III going only Marth

This includes 3-0ing Hyuga.

 

[TheGlove]

Kinda happy to see both Fatality and Mr.E taking down Mega Man.
Maybe this will make some of the overly optimistic mega man mains a little more cautious about calling him a high tier (I've even seen claims like 5th or 6th best...) just yet.

Its honestly not too surprising, Fatality and Scatt go back and forth a lot. Like at Eagleland, I think that was the Georgia Regional Scatt won, Scatt 2-0'd fatality and Scatt thinks the matchup is slightly in falcons favor

Mr. E is sort of surprising but I have a hard time quantifying what player level he is at, he's like 6wx he keeps getting close to beating top players but cant clutch it out. I feel this is more that people overate Scatt a little bit, the guy is just now starting to travel and get consistent top player practice he's still got a ways to go before he is a top level player himself.

I doubt Mega is top ten though, since I wouldnt consider him really solo viable with iffy matchups against Sheik, Mario, Fox Rosalina, and Pikachu

On another note, Lord Mix's matchup chart had sonic as 55-45 in bowser's favor. I assume he has played wrath, same region, before so I wonder if he's got his number. Usually I hear sonic as one the gate keepers on bowser.

 

[warionumbah2]

Leo dominated Hail Smash III going only Marth

This includes 3-0ing Hyuga.

Serge also beat hyuga with Roy after winning with lucario. The Leo family really like sword characters.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Damn, at this rate Trela is going to get Ryu nerfed
@Emblem Lord quick, start under rating Ryu before it actually happens

But really, Ryu has way to much potential. If this game isn't dead in 3 years I can see him dominating almost all top level play

 

[Y2Kay]

Leo dominated Hail Smash III going only Marth

This includes 3-0ing Hyuga.

Serge got 2nd. Appaarently he has a greninja in his rotation now. He took two games off Hyuga with him actually.

 

[HoSmash4]

What makes spin dash cancel so good is the fact you microspace during it, instant shield, 0 commitment and the fact there's a high priority (aerials only beat spin dash if you time the hitbox on a super fast move 90%+ of the time) move dealing 15+%.

Ever since I've seen komorikiri abuse spin dash cancel I haven't been particularly happy of sonic.

 

[Teshie U]

Marth has actually becomes kind of hard for megaman as he has continued to receive buffs. He was an easily shieldgrabbed character that didn't quite have the range to compete with pellets and lacked the punish game to make his openings matter. Now Fair can easily hit megaman while he is shooting, his landings are safe and dangerous and megaman has never received a buff that really changed any matchups in his favor.

 

[Nu~]

Serge also beat hyuga with Roy after winning with lucario. The Leo family really like sword characters.

Interesting that he managed to beat Hyuga's toon link 3-0 considering Roy's awful dash to shield. I would have figured that would be enough to make the matchup hell.
Regardless, that's pretty hype. Roy on the come up??..hopefully...

 

[Das Koopa]

So. Uh. 9B got 2-0'd his first Bo3 out of pools by a player named "Mister".

What.

 

[Y2Kay]

So. Uh. 9B got 2-0'd his first Bo3 out of pools by a player named "Mister".

What.

Did he go Mewtwo?

 

[Das Koopa]

Did he go Mewtwo?

match wasn't on stream so idk

 

[BSP]

What makes spin dash cancel so good is the fact you microspace during it, instant shield, 0 commitment and the fact there's a high priority (aerials only beat spin dash if you time the hitbox on a super fast move 90%+ of the time) move dealing 15+%.

Ever since I've seen komorikiri abuse spin dash cancel I haven't been particularly happy of sonic.

Go watch ESAM's video on "priority", it essentially doesn't exist.

Spin dash roll (the hop has some invincibility) should lose vs aerials every time, regardless of % as long as said aerial has enough disjoint. At worst, it'll trade, which is most likely not in sonic's favor since his big damage from spins comes from the follow ups.

Grounded moves vs spindash: nearly any move will clank with spin dash if you time it properly. If you get really good, you can even pivot grab sonic out of it, but it's tough.

Marth has actually becomes kind of hard for megaman as he has continued to receive buffs. He was an easily shieldgrabbed character that didn't quite have the range to compete with pellets and lacked the punish game to make his openings matter. Now Fair can easily hit megaman while he is shooting, his landings are safe and dangerous and megaman has never received a buff that really changed any matchups in his favor.

The same thing happened to pac-man with sword characters. I don't think he ever did well vs them from the start, but they ALL got buffs while he didn't move.

 

[Aaron1997]

Das Koopa MB The guy that beat 9B was Danna not Mister. Google Translate is horrible. Also this guy was on stream earlier but I cant remember who he plays

 

[HeavyLobster]

Come to think of it, is there any character that has both good frame data and good mobility, yet isn't seen as very good?

all the way.

 

[Mario766]

all the way.

Aerial mobility plays a huge factor in a character.

and Mac is solely lacking.

 

[UberMadman]

I think the closest second you can get to in that department is , who has good aerial and ground mobility but is somewhat lacking in frame data, though it isn't the worst in the world. His main problems tend to come from his horrible disadvantage and recovery, though.

But yeah, generally good frame data + good mobility = good character.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Aerial mobility plays a huge factor in a character.

and Mac is solely lacking.

Mac's air speed is average. He has a lot of problems in the air, but air mobility isn't actually one of them.

 

[FullMoon]

What's with Dedede today, seriously lol

 

[Mister M]

In that case, my favorite Sword characters are Mega Man and Greninja.

They use disjoint attacks. The animation uses a blade sure, but no one is going to agree with you. They are not holding or wielding a sword.

This is a dead topic

 

[Minordeth]

Can we stop with this crap? This is not even close. All those gifs you've seen are actually extended hitboxes just as Bowser grabs. Now stop.

So, no need to get bizarrely defensive. I don't keep up with gifs of Bowser whatever. I do enjoy using Bowser, though, and his pivot grab is pretty good. I wrote that part of the post to be obviously hyperbolic, and I'm assuming that "Bowser's grab range is literally half of FD" is a meme. Which I am unaware of.

So, basically, chill.

ETA: although now you have me looking up Bowser gifs and work, so there's that.

 

[Ffamran]

Mac's air speed is average. He has a lot of problems in the air, but air mobility isn't actually one of them.

His air acceleration is the second-worst in the game at 0.028 over Ryu's 0.025 and his air friction is a bit low too at 0.0075 to the majority of 0.015, but I feel stupid today and can't explain why Little Mac having low air friction is bad for him.

Little Mac, like Ryu, can reach a decent air speed, but it's going to take some time which is detrimental for him off-stage. Ryu at least has at least an average distance horizontal and vertical recovery, but as Little Mac's air game was designed to be bad, it's going to bite him if his momentum is interfered with at all off-stage. Made worse is that he's a fast faller which itself is slightly offset by him having average gravity for a fast faller.

Speaking of aerial movement, all of the Fire Emblem characters (and Shulk), but Robin have skewed aerial movement. Makes sense since all of them are wearing capes. Ike and Roy (and Shulk) can reach high air speeds, but they take time to reach it; Lucina and Marth have average fall speeds, but their lower gravity means they're going to take a bit longer to reach it; and Corrin's basically screwed in horizontal air movement by having low air acceleration and speed which is probably a good thing considering Corrin's aerials. Robin's the only one with "balanced" aerial movement through average air acceleration with average air speed and average fall speed with average gravity. Cost of this is that Robin's the slowest on the ground. Y'know, if gliding was still in the game, all of them but Robin (and Shulk) could work the whole dive with a cape thing like in the Batman: Arkham games. *SWOOOSH!* Oi! A dragon just flew over and bit yer head off! *SWOOOSH!* Oh, no... *sound of bones being crushed under Ragnell* Technically, Ike's been doing this with Quick Draw... Anyway, just an observation on aerial movement and the caped Fire Emblem characters.

 

[Aaron1997]

Earth Barely beats a Mii Brawller user 1121 Small. I don't know be you guys but Brawler Is a bad character. You either get a grab and kill at 50 or don't kill at all.

 

[HoSmash4]

The key phrase is timing an aerial on sonic spin dash. Sonic has a lot more control on when he can release spin dash compared to your timing an aerial. Priority is a false term and is just a combination of frame data + damage + air to ground move interaction as well as control over timing. Its just a simpler term to use.

I'm sure you can time and beat out spin dash if they commit to it from a reactable distance easily but the point of spin dash cancel is to make spin dash release unreactable

 

[Das Koopa]

9B out at 33rd lol

Komo out at 17th

 

[Kofu]

9B out at 33rd lol

Komo out at 17th

Komo being out at 17th is more surprising to me. Who did he use and who did he lose to?