Trunks159
Smash Journeyman
A. Thats what people think.
B. He doesn't fight like a sword character.
C. He doesn't have a sword.
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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
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B. He doesn't fight like a sword character.
C. He doesn't have a sword.
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
Falcon's frame data isn't bad though. His startups are bad on average, but the endlag as well as landing lag on his aerials is really good, and a few key ground moves of his are also very safe.
Mobility and (effective) range are also directly tied to frame data, they determine how many frames it takes for you to connect with an attack when there's distance between you and the opponent. It's why Mario and Ryu are considered "only top 10" and why Doc isn't that great.
If you're constantly positioning yourself for a horizontal recovery with Pit, especially when recovering from far away, you're just making it bad on your own.
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LancerStaff
Smash Hero
BunbUn129
Smash Ace
Ike's aerial acceleration is pretty bad at 0.04, but better than Roy who's bottom of the barrel at 0.03 (who is further hindered by a 1.8 falling speed and high gravity), while worse than Cloud who's slightly below average at 0.06. Overall, Ike's aerial mobility isn't good, and among sword users, Cloud, MK, Marth, Lucina, and Robin (yikes!) beat him in that regard.
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Trunks159
Smash Journeyman
Then we'll have to agree to disagree...
BunbUn129
Smash Ace
Aerial acceleration is generally more important in practice than top air speed. Roy's aerial mobility is bad for a reason. Robin also has slower falling speed and lower gravity than Ike, which factors into aerial mobility.
Robin (1.0) isn't faster than Ike (1.08) in terms of air speed. But neither are Marth and Lucina (both 1.02) (and MK (0.99), but let's not count him since multi-jumps) yet their aerial mobility is overall better than Ike's.
Robin (1.0) isn't faster than Ike (1.08) in terms of air speed. But neither are Marth and Lucina (both 1.02) (and MK (0.99), but let's not count him since multi-jumps) yet their aerial mobility is overall better than Ike's.
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LancerStaff
Smash Hero
How so? Between his jumps, his great airdodge and arrows there's not really any risk involved.
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
Whether Ike holds onto his mid-air jump for later use or uses it immediately doesn't make a difference. You follow Ike's drift until he commits to jump into side b or up b (eventually he will have to), and then you intercept whatever he chose to do. The deeper Ike goes, i.e. the longer he waits to use his mid-air jump, the more chance you have to hit him further back or straight up KO him.
If he tries to side b into you before using his jump you can literally just bait it out and let Ike kill himself (without using his mid-air jump he can't make it back to the ledge with side b if knocked too far offstage), or hell, you can just let him hit you and then wait for him to jump and commit to up b. You'll have plenty of time for it even after being hit by quick draw.
Ike's recovery is telegraphed. He can't stall, he can't challenge you, his side b can be stopped by merely being in front of him and his up can easily be reacted to and stuffed with a meteor or a projectile. The fact that I didn't mention all the telegraphed options Ike can recover with doesn't mean they aren't just as telegraphed.
This seems to be a popular phenomenon here: if you criticize a character but leave out one irrelevant detail, there will be a character warrior who shows up, brings up this unmentioned detail, somehow turns it into something that completely invalidates whatever critique was exercised and is probably genuinely convinced of that. It's heavily biased and sometimes I wonder just how much frame of reference these people have. You have to experience a good recovery to know a bad one, and you have to play against someone who actually abuses recoveries to know yours is abusable. Ike gets knocked out before he plays people like these in the bracket.
Because your opponent isn't an idiot.
Pit can't stall offstage for too long (that is, he can't go for too many arrows or his great airdodges either) or else he has to commit to up b which isn't hard to intercept. If he actively wants to avoid recovering low and thus can't stall for long, his options become much more limited. He has to approach the stage faster and he will do it mid or high. Your opponent understands this and covers those limited options.
And in addition to that, if Pit constantly snaps to the ledge with side b his ledgesnap vulnerability will be abused. If Pit tries to snap to the ledge from above stage level, thus eliminating the vulnerability, he doesn't actually snap immediately and it's even easier to punish him for it similar to Falcon. In this regard, Pit's side b recovery is no better. They're both telegraphed (and to be fair Pit's actually travels slower).
Pit can't land onto the stage with his recovery moves either. Side b has considerable lag, while up b landing is notoriously laggy.
In my experience best Pit can do is recover high by only using his jumps, but if he gets hit out of them before touching the stage he's pretty much done. That, or just hope to hit the person edgeguarding you with something and recover while they're knocked away.
Eugene Wang
Smash Apprentice
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You know, if edgeguards were as easy as you made them sound, they would be more common than in Melee.
Illuminose
Smash Ace
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It's actually just because Ike is one of the easier characters to edgeguard. He has some of the fewest, most telegraphed options of any recovery in the game, including no real way to protect himself with aerials and bad air speed to drift toward the ledge and safely up b (his up b has bad horizontal distance). It's really just a matter knowing how to intercept side b and cover up b if he has the opportunity to go for it. PikaPika does a pretty good job exploiting san's recovery in their set at GOML actually. You have to know the matchup to gimp him, but it's not that difficult if you know it; most people don't lab edgeguarding in this game though, especially in a more obscure matchup like Ike where most will generally be content with trapping him at the ledge.
I also don't think Trifroze is saying that gimping Pit is easy, merely that Pit's recovery options are exploitable i.e. you can punish him pretty effectively off-stage.
Hero_2_All
Smash Apprentice
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This theory right here is probably why I cannot get the whole Corrin is OBVIOUSLY 3rd best FE, and has "poor theory" trend that was all over here. Frame data, combos, mobility, and safety are key to a good character. I whole heartily agree with this. Maybe this belief stems from my previous experience as a street fighter player (honestly somewhat true for all fighters, but especially in SF). Honestly though let's look at each FE characters individual stats in all the previous categories objectively ( Mobility, dmg racking, kill power, start up, and shield safety):
Frame data:
Marth: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...WFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=1636352940
Ike: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...WFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=1747190514
Corrin : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=943524191
Based on data lets go through each category of: mobility, dmg racking / combos, kill power, Move start up, and lastly Shield Safety. If you disagree feel free to state something I may have missed, or your interpretation of the data. I will try to be as objective as possible (though me being a Corrin main you can view this with slight bias if you like). Also Combo / kill categories were hard to do on data alone ( did based partially off matches seen).
Marth V Corrin:
Mobility:
This easily goes to Marth. Corrin only has her initial dash, better b reverse, and dash to shield on Marth, the rest is a resounding Marth.
Dmg racking and combos:
Corrin really shines in this area among the swordies. Her combo game can convert from the vast majority of her moves. This is even even at their safe ranges. They are also consistent in dealing large chunks of dmg. Marth on the other hand has combos, but not near the lvl of consistency or dmg of Corrin's. The Marth tipper's do nice dmg, but have large knock-back and are difficult to get follow ups on. This is very much In Corrin's favor.
Kill power:
I personally am very hesitant to put a verdict here. I'm inclined to put Corrin due to her consistent ability to kill multiple ways and at multiple times, but I also cannot deny Marth's ability to get early kills off his amazing edge guards, and his tipper smashes (both of which are just above Corrin in their potency). I'll honestly call it decently even with an advantage to Corrin for her consistency in killing when compared to Marth (While also having early kill power). Corrin Having a better kill throw, more kill moves, and not needing to land tippers every time is why I say this.
Start Up:
Start up on their moves are pretty much the same. Honestly they almost copied the frame data over from Marrth for Corrin. Yet, there are some advantages in start up which go to Marth. His smash attacks, and U-air are slightly faster than Corrin''s. Also his F-air is 1 frame faster than Corrin f-air, but not her N-air, which Corrin uses more often. (honestly both their frame data is amazing for Swordies). Corrin's Tilts come out faster but only by a frame or 2. Honestly pretty even.
Shield Safety:
For safety of aerials in general Corrin has Marth beat. For Marth to be comparable or slightly safer he needs to tipper, even then some of the shields advantages are in Corrin's favor or even. The Shield advantages that are better for Marth are 2nd hit tipper n-air, and tipper U-air, the rest is Even or better for Corrin without need for tipper (for example tipper Marth F-air is -8 tipper ed, Corrin N-air is -7). The ground though is in Marth's advantage. With Marth down tilt being a stand out -10 to -9 tipper ed, his other tilts though are near double that. Corrin's around double marth's down tilt as well (Corrin -19 d-tilt). Marth also has slightly better ranges on his ground moves. Gonna give this being close, but to Marth.
From a base look its pretty even in most categories, and the only true big gaps come in combos, and mobility. Honestly It may come up to personal preference in the future between choosing these two. Though my own Bias opinion tells me Corrin's better kill and dmg ability, while also being almost as safe would win out.
Ike V Marth (Not as familiar with either compared to Corrin, will use mostly data, and will be shorter)
Mobility: Ike is beaten by Marth in probably every category here. Not much to say
Dmg racking / Combos:
Ike has a good dmg raking game when compared to Marth. His angles combo better, he has a combo throw, and he hits like a truck. Marth has his aforementioned tippers, and some combos, but they still can't make up for the raw dmg and combos Ike has.
Kill power:
Both Ike and Marth can kill very early. Ike has a large amount of kill moves without the need for tipper. Marth on the other hand has a ok kill throw, and a better edge guard game. Gonna call it even.
Start up:
Marth, really just Marth. Only Ike's jab is faster by one frame. The rest is either even or largely in Marth's Favor.
Shield Safety:
This is about even. In the air Ike's aerials generally a little safer than most of Marth's aerials with -7 on shield. This is followed by Ike's U-air which is also -7 on shield (but less range). Marth to be comparable needs tippers in the air. Yet, there is still u-air tipper and 2nd hit n-air tipper (but these are rarely used on sheild compared to say tipper f-air). On the ground Marth is generally a little safer with his tilts. D tilt on Ike is -15, while Marth is -10 / -9 (tipper). Ftilts are -19 Ike, and -18/-17 Marth. Its really Even here.
This seems somewhat in Marth Favor, as he wins in mobility, and start ups. Yet, Ike like Corrin beats Marth out In combos and dmg racking. In the other Categories they seemed pretty even.
Corrin V Ike (less data in text because I've already gone over data for each in previous ones).
Mobility :
Sate wise it was literally even pre 1.15. Then Corrin had a 3% decrease on base mobility stats vs Ike. Yet, Corrin has some things going for her. One a good B reverse / wave bounce. Two better initial dash, and dash to shield. Three, side B off platforms (which auto cancels about 2/3 the way through... you can b reverse, n-air, or jump before landing, landing with nothing is a 1 frame soft landing). Honestly Corrin just has a couple mobility tricks over Ike and its near even.
Dmg Racking / Combos:
Both have great combos, but Corrin follows up into juggles better, and does not hit the target to far away. She also true Combo's to higher percents. Vice versa Ike has a combo throw, and hits more like a truck ( It was too big to be called a sword... more like a big chunk of Iron). Pretty even.
Kill power:
Ike hits like a truck, and kills like truck. As far as power is concerned if Ike is a semi, then Corrin is but a pick up truck. The thing though is that Corrin has a good kill throw, and sets up into her kills better. Its probably in Corrin's favor with her kill throw, and kill set ups. She does not to read as hard as Ike to kill.
Start Up:
Corrin is comparable to Marth here, so like him she trounces Ike in start up if it's not b-air or jab.
Shield Safety:
Ike like Marth is safer on Shield. Similar aerial safety, and has slightly better ground safety whe compared to Corrin. Ike is just a little bit safer than Corrin.
Honestly Ike has three things in these categories better than Corrin. Shield safety (slightly but there), hit for hit power, and a combo throw. Corrin on the other hand has much better frame data, true combos / juggles, and has a kill throw.
Honestly this is how I see the data. Feel free to posts any constructive criticism, or praise :3 (damn that took a while).
BunbUn129
Smash Ace
Aside from Smash 4 having safe air dodges, no edge-hogging, slower fall speeds, and really good recoveries in comparison to Melee, people generally suck at edge-guarding in this game.
No one can edge guard 100% of the time, but when a recovery has weaknesses they always need to be considered as if edge guards do happen 100% of the time.
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Mario766
Smash Lord
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If Ike's QD was that easy to bait and then reactively punish, it'd be done more often.
It's a huge risk, and unless you're sending Ike purely horizontal *Good luck, that's not really doable in Smash 4* he can and will make it back with QD unless you can straight up beat it from above or diagonal above him. Ike with a DJ gets multiple options to use.
He can use his DJ early to charge QD and go either high or to the stage.
He can save DJ, and either try to crash into someone who goes off-stage or go for the ledge, assuming he has enough charge this is still safe unless he gets spiked.
He can drift into a DJ QD, which covers more than it appears at first, with Ike's ledge magnet being pretty decent, esp from below. This can protect him from 2 frames, as some moves just don't hit low enough from the stage.
His last option is to drift into Aether. Aether's a bad recovery, and every whiffed punish should be treated as a flub unless you just couldn't punish it, any character can beat Aether from above, and from behind is even easier.
I won't say Ike's recovery is good, it's mediocre, full of weaknesses, but to say it's garbage and ruins the character is really overstepping things as it isn't a Doc or Mac recovery, which DOES ruin the character in a way.
BTW
Hero_2_All
Use shield drop numbers, not PS. Ike's d-tilt would be -8 and Marth's d-tilt would be -2/-3.
Corrin also doesn't true combo later than Ike, our combos work till kill percents, while Corrin has to rely on stray hits/side-b to really get combo starters which set up kills. Ike also wins the mobility war in general, even with things like b-reverse/wavebounce as Corrin's move for it is still fairly laggy and punishable unlike other moves woulc could be better suited for the moves, not to mention Ike has AC QD to use for mobility if he wanted, which would speed him up on stage and through platforms, almost like a mini-edge cancel.
It's a huge risk, and unless you're sending Ike purely horizontal *Good luck, that's not really doable in Smash 4* he can and will make it back with QD unless you can straight up beat it from above or diagonal above him. Ike with a DJ gets multiple options to use.
He can use his DJ early to charge QD and go either high or to the stage.
He can save DJ, and either try to crash into someone who goes off-stage or go for the ledge, assuming he has enough charge this is still safe unless he gets spiked.
He can drift into a DJ QD, which covers more than it appears at first, with Ike's ledge magnet being pretty decent, esp from below. This can protect him from 2 frames, as some moves just don't hit low enough from the stage.
His last option is to drift into Aether. Aether's a bad recovery, and every whiffed punish should be treated as a flub unless you just couldn't punish it, any character can beat Aether from above, and from behind is even easier.
I won't say Ike's recovery is good, it's mediocre, full of weaknesses, but to say it's garbage and ruins the character is really overstepping things as it isn't a Doc or Mac recovery, which DOES ruin the character in a way.
BTW
Hero_2_All
Use shield drop numbers, not PS. Ike's d-tilt would be -8 and Marth's d-tilt would be -2/-3.
Corrin also doesn't true combo later than Ike, our combos work till kill percents, while Corrin has to rely on stray hits/side-b to really get combo starters which set up kills. Ike also wins the mobility war in general, even with things like b-reverse/wavebounce as Corrin's move for it is still fairly laggy and punishable unlike other moves woulc could be better suited for the moves, not to mention Ike has AC QD to use for mobility if he wanted, which would speed him up on stage and through platforms, almost like a mini-edge cancel.
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LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Up B is hard to intercept if the Pit isn't a fool. Pit starts moving before you can react to it and he can either chose to fly straight to the ledge or bonk on the wall, which are widely different flight paths and he reaches the ledge at different enough times that even the best moves for covering the ledge can't cover both options. If the opponent commits to any normal offstage options like jumping off and Fairing Pit can pick the most convenient time to return with it.
The attack detector, and thus hitbox, hits the majority of characters while they're in position to catch a ledge snap. If shielded most characters can't even punish the pop up if angled away, and those that can, can't get anything decent off of it since Pit can chose to either go onstage further or go as far away as possible, and again by the time you've reacted to the direction he picked you can't hit him with anything decent. Any kind of chargable one loses instantly if you hold it long enough for Pit to react because he can wait until he's practically touching the blastzone before recovering during the endlag of the move, assuming he can't just hit you outright.
He can with a platform via side B ledge cancel, actually. With practice it's not hard to hit even SV and T&C's platforms.
In my experience you need something pretty special to get anything better then a 3% projectile consistently off of Pit's recovery... Cloud, Sheik and Diddy don't have anything like that. Falcon and ZSS don't either. Otherwise the Pit needs to make a terrible mistake or you need to make a hard read.
Hero_2_All
Smash Apprentice
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Well i just gave ps so it factors OOS better. If anyone wants with sheild drop the can just add 7 frames.If Ike's QD was that easy to bait and then reactively punish, it'd be done more often.
It's a huge risk, and unless you're sending Ike purely horizontal *Good luck, that's not really doable in Smash 4* he can and will make it back with QD unless you can straight up beat it from above or diagonal above him. Ike with a DJ gets multiple options to use.
He can use his DJ early to charge QD and go either high or to the stage.
He can save DJ, and either try to crash into someone who goes off-stage or go for the ledge, assuming he has enough charge this is still safe unless he gets spiked.
He can drift into a DJ QD, which covers more than it appears at first, with Ike's ledge magnet being pretty decent, esp from below. This can protect him from 2 frames, as some moves just don't hit low enough from the stage.
His last option is to drift into Aether. Aether's a bad recovery, and every whiffed punish should be treated as a flub unless you just couldn't punish it, any character can beat Aether from above, and from behind is even easier.
I won't say Ike's recovery is good, it's mediocre, full of weaknesses, but to say it's garbage and ruins the character is really overstepping things as it isn't a Doc or Mac recovery, which DOES ruin the character in a way.
BTW
Use shield drop numbers, not PS. Ike's d-tilt would be -8 and Marth's d-tilt would be -2/-3.
Corrin also doesn't true combo later than Ike, our combos work till kill percents, while Corrin has to rely on stray hits/side-b to really get combo starters which set up kills. Ike also wins the mobility war in general, even with things like b-reverse/wavebounce as Corrin's move for it is still fairly laggy and punishable unlike other moves woulc could be better suited for the moves, not to mention Ike has AC QD to use for mobility if he wanted, which would speed him up on stage and through platforms, almost like a mini-edge cancel.
Mario766
Smash Lord
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My personal experience with Pit recoveries is to just 2 frame up-b, and if he tries to side-b back to ledge/stage, just punish accordingly, thankfully Ike has counter but not everyone has that.
What is the IASA on side-b if on shield and aerial? The frame data page isn't very clear on it.
What is the IASA on side-b if on shield and aerial? The frame data page isn't very clear on it.
Trunks159
Smash Journeyman
Theory goes beyond statistics. I think you need to look deeper to understand why Corrin is perceived (on here at least, since a lot of people think Corrin is the best) to be lesser than Ike and Marth. I'm not completely confident I could completely type those things right now so I'll leave that for someone else
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
Yeah, there's a difference in explaining an edgeguard in principle and claiming it's easy to put into action. Some principles are simpler and thus easier than others, like Ike's far away horizontal recovery or Mac in general.
One reality I held back on mentioning: what does Ike do if he's been hit offstage after using his mid-air jump trying to land which he also has a lot of trouble with?
And back to Pit, the fact that it's relatively slow and has no hitbox means it's safe to abuse the 2 frame ledgesnap because it can be reacted to and you will never get hit standing on the ledge waiting for it (allows for easy ledge trump pressure as well). You can also back air stage spike the up b on reaction, and meteor it on reaction by jumping in Pit's line of recovery beforehand. Let's assume the back air will lead into a tech jump 100% of the time, but even then it still keeps Pit in a disadvantageous position especially if he has used his jumps already, while the meteor will straight up kill him. A pretty much polar opposite would be Ryu's up b, which is too fast and hits above the ledge. It's an actually good recovery move that proves distance isn't the most important factor.
Anyway, I think I've said all there is to say by now. I don't see a point dragging on a subject longer than that from my side.
One reality I held back on mentioning: what does Ike do if he's been hit offstage after using his mid-air jump trying to land which he also has a lot of trouble with?
And back to Pit, the fact that it's relatively slow and has no hitbox means it's safe to abuse the 2 frame ledgesnap because it can be reacted to and you will never get hit standing on the ledge waiting for it (allows for easy ledge trump pressure as well). You can also back air stage spike the up b on reaction, and meteor it on reaction by jumping in Pit's line of recovery beforehand. Let's assume the back air will lead into a tech jump 100% of the time, but even then it still keeps Pit in a disadvantageous position especially if he has used his jumps already, while the meteor will straight up kill him. A pretty much polar opposite would be Ryu's up b, which is too fast and hits above the ledge. It's an actually good recovery move that proves distance isn't the most important factor.
Anyway, I think I've said all there is to say by now. I don't see a point dragging on a subject longer than that from my side.
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Mario766
Smash Lord
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Depends on where he was hit off-stage.
I could say that for a lot of characters who don't have amazing recoveries, if you get without a jump at a certain point low enough you'll die. That's almost universal for the entire cast. If he was hit off-stage without a DJ, if he can QD or Aether back then he has to do that. Is it great? No. Is it a stock lost? Not necessarily.
I could say that for a lot of characters who don't have amazing recoveries, if you get without a jump at a certain point low enough you'll die. That's almost universal for the entire cast. If he was hit off-stage without a DJ, if he can QD or Aether back then he has to do that. Is it great? No. Is it a stock lost? Not necessarily.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
My personal experience with Ike is to bait or wait out eruption, or at least shoot an arrow up before up B.
Pretty long, no exact numbers... But it turns up his aerial stats high enough to where there's not a ton of characters that can do anything exceptional 100% of the time like I said.
Counters work against it but they're pretty easy to bait out so, yaknow... Oh and I might as well mention that Witch Time doesn't work on the move again.
You can't react to it though... About 15 frames before he starts flying, and when he is flying it's at a speed comparable to Sonic's dash. It's impossible to cover both options. Doesn't work.
Pit also laughs at your ledge trumps. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anybody gets anything confirmed with a ledge trump. Pit can ADFF away from most anything you could throw at him, and if you tried to he's getting back on the ledge for free unless you're will to give up a stock. If you stay on the ledge you're back at square one and can't react to what he does, and you're especially vulnerable to arrows with no options that "win" against them. And that's assuming you didn't ledge trump too early or late because, again, you can't cover both timings.
Jumping out and chasing him down with a meteor doesn't work unless you have plenty of jumps yourself because of arrows. Jumping out before Pit commits to anything usually fails because of arrows.
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The pits do not play like the other sword characters lol. There are significant differences in what they can and can't do in comparison to the other swordies.
Overall they have less range, they don't really have safe pokes like most of the other swordies, and their moves don't really have the option coverage that many of the other sword characters have because they lack arcing hitboxes.
Overall they have less range, they don't really have safe pokes like most of the other swordies, and their moves don't really have the option coverage that many of the other sword characters have because they lack arcing hitboxes.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
They do though. Ask swordie guru and thread moderator
Shaya
if you don't believe me."Less range" is a myth, just like Cloud's supposedly longer range. "Unsafe pokes" doesn't apply when Corrin's are equal or worse or when you have Cloud's Dtilt that's strictly a punish. "Lacking arcing hitboxes" doesn't matter if you're including Marth and Roy's garbage active frames or Cloud again when there's barely a point in using anything besides Uair, never mind that he makes up for the option coverage with multihits.
I wouldn't say that Ike wins the mobility war. The slight speed nerf is irrelevant and is realistically unnoticeable. A better dash to shield, along with having a much better short hop game is more important. I think Corrin wins in the mobility department, but they're so close that it's irrelevant.
More importantly is that you're spreading false information on Corrin's combos. She could combo into kills easily. D-tilt -> Uair, Fair -> Uair, Weak Nair -> Bair, and DFS stuff are all easy and consistent ways of netting kills. She also has more gimmicky things for kills like Fair -> DFS, Fair -> Up-b, Fair -> DL, or D-tilt -> U-smash if they get hit hanging on a ledge.
Also, while not true kill combos, Corrin has great traps. Things like Corrin's U-tilt or Nair have great mix-up potential for kills.
Also IP is stupid. Bair is stupid. 2 kill throws is fun.
I would say that Corrin has an easier time killing than Ike. Greater threat zones and much better start-up on aerials that confirm to kills is amazing, along with threatening shield better at high percents.
Hero_2_All
Smash Apprentice
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Oh woops I didn't see your Ike info, just the shield drop stuff (sry for not responding). Corrin has combos into kill set ups, but the windows are on average like 10% for different things at different percents (n-air, f-air, d-tilt). Cool to know ike has some kill confirms though (is it mainly off n-air right)? Really the kill throw was one of the main reasons I put Corrin slightly above ike in killing.If Ike's QD was that easy to bait and then reactively punish, it'd be done more often.
It's a huge risk, and unless you're sending Ike purely horizontal *Good luck, that's not really doable in Smash 4* he can and will make it back with QD unless you can straight up beat it from above or diagonal above him. Ike with a DJ gets multiple options to use.
He can use his DJ early to charge QD and go either high or to the stage.
He can save DJ, and either try to crash into someone who goes off-stage or go for the ledge, assuming he has enough charge this is still safe unless he gets spiked.
He can drift into a DJ QD, which covers more than it appears at first, with Ike's ledge magnet being pretty decent, esp from below. This can protect him from 2 frames, as some moves just don't hit low enough from the stage.
His last option is to drift into Aether. Aether's a bad recovery, and every whiffed punish should be treated as a flub unless you just couldn't punish it, any character can beat Aether from above, and from behind is even easier.
I won't say Ike's recovery is good, it's mediocre, full of weaknesses, but to say it's garbage and ruins the character is really overstepping things as it isn't a Doc or Mac recovery, which DOES ruin the character in a way.
BTW
Use shield drop numbers, not PS. Ike's d-tilt would be -8 and Marth's d-tilt would be -2/-3.
Corrin also doesn't true combo later than Ike, our combos work till kill percents, while Corrin has to rely on stray hits/side-b to really get combo starters which set up kills. Ike also wins the mobility war in general, even with things like b-reverse/wavebounce as Corrin's move for it is still fairly laggy and punishable unlike other moves woulc could be better suited for the moves, not to mention Ike has AC QD to use for mobility if he wanted, which would speed him up on stage and through platforms, almost like a mini-edge cancel.
Routa
Smash Lord
Let Mii ask this... Does any swordie share the playstyle with any other swordie that isn't a clone? 'Cause I cannot name any swordie that shares his/her playstyle with another swordy.
The reason why I'm "asking" this is that people talk about Swordies like they all shared similar playstyle when clearly it isn't the case.
The reason why I'm "asking" this is that people talk about Swordies like they all shared similar playstyle when clearly it isn't the case.
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C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
I was under the impression that "swordies" were defined by the fact that they wielded swords. Crazy, right?
Routa
Smash Lord
Mind opening up this "play like a sword user"?
Samuelwisebaggins
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 17, 2016
- Messages
- 56
Is shulk still considered to be around number 40 in viability?
Swordies is more like a class / common design, there are sword wielders in this game that don't play like swordies (Links definitely, a few steps closer on Robin, MK not too much either but he still holds most traits), and there are some non-sword wielding characters that have moveset designs that fit into a mold which a swordie play style kinda works (Mewtwo definitely, and further away; Dedede - although I wouldn't argue these two being apart of the crew too often).
Marth is the basis for swordie design in Smash. They tend to be pro-edge guarding, ironically awkward predominately vertical recoveries, strong poke-heavy (fairs, dtilts, etc) tools often coupled with arcing animations/hitbox areas, mid-range game play that has a large focus on out of dash options (usually some notably fantastic ones and 1 or 2 poor ones) that overlap with solid OoS choices, vertical juggle/landing coverage punish games, safety dependent entirely on spacing, usually completely disjointed normal movesets, a tendency to have a special move set of a dragon punch, a defensive tool and are otherwise weapon-wielding/melee, very strong but very laggy forward smashes.
Pit plays like a swordie noticeably more than Meta Knight.
However, Pit isn't some constantly retreating aerial spammer on wifi, so I suppose most people trying to blindly play him like button mashing Cloud isn't going to work out the same way.
Anyway I tend to hate this conversation among the non-swordie brethren .
"Roy doesn't play like a sword user" is actually sickening to read (could blame it being the morning without coffee yet).
Suffering #_#
Marth is the basis for swordie design in Smash. They tend to be pro-edge guarding, ironically awkward predominately vertical recoveries, strong poke-heavy (fairs, dtilts, etc) tools often coupled with arcing animations/hitbox areas, mid-range game play that has a large focus on out of dash options (usually some notably fantastic ones and 1 or 2 poor ones) that overlap with solid OoS choices, vertical juggle/landing coverage punish games, safety dependent entirely on spacing, usually completely disjointed normal movesets, a tendency to have a special move set of a dragon punch, a defensive tool and are otherwise weapon-wielding/melee, very strong but very laggy forward smashes.
Pit plays like a swordie noticeably more than Meta Knight.
However, Pit isn't some constantly retreating aerial spammer on wifi, so I suppose most people trying to blindly play him like button mashing Cloud isn't going to work out the same way.
Anyway I tend to hate this conversation among the non-swordie brethren .
"Roy doesn't play like a sword user" is actually sickening to read (could blame it being the morning without coffee yet).
Suffering #_#
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FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
So for the record, the top 8 for Smash Ring (I don't have the bracket on me right now), the Brazilian major that happened today with 77 entrants:
I don't know what it means to the skill level of this country when someone won the whole thing using Dedede lol
rip Greninja I got 9th
1st) AD | Jab Air 
2nd) RA | Josonic
3rd) BW | Lukinhas
4th) AD | Luffy
5th) BRO | Holy
5th) Zack Yoshida
7th) BRO | Micro
7th) BRO | Stormbringer
2nd) RA | Josonic
3rd) BW | Lukinhas
4th) AD | Luffy
5th) BRO | Holy
5th) Zack Yoshida
7th) BRO | Micro
7th) BRO | Stormbringer
I don't know what it means to the skill level of this country when someone won the whole thing using Dedede lol
rip Greninja I got 9th
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Mister M
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2013
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- 79
This is exactly the same as saying if it doesn't play like street fighter it isn't a fighting game.
Only thing required to be a sword user is to have a sword on your character.
Mechanically speaking (as shaya pointed out) many characters make consistent use of disjoints. Whethe they swing wide or are shaped like a hammer is arbitrary.
Judge each move independently
Only thing required to be a sword user is to have a sword on your character.
Mechanically speaking (as shaya pointed out) many characters make consistent use of disjoints. Whethe they swing wide or are shaped like a hammer is arbitrary.
Judge each move independently
UberMadman
Smash Lord
In that case, my favorite Sword characters are Mega Man and Greninja.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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KakuCP9
What does it mean to be strong?
Fatality should buy himself a nice dish of revenge with whatever fight money he wins after beating Scatt.
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