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I don't even know how I failed to mention him considering, while writing that post, I spent most of the time thinking about whether zard should go in the borderline or unviable category. But hey, at least I got a laugh out of it
Then let tier lists show the current metagame. But I want to know who is good at the moment, not who is used at the moment.
It looks like people underestimate the monados power
adding to this subject and well written post:
By that logic, no reason to use anyone beyond Diddy/Sheik/Cloud/ZSS/Rosalina really
Little Mac might be underrated. It seems even top players can't punish rolls no matter how predictable he is with them. At least not consistently.adding to this subject and well written post:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qd3erAPI9w
is a thing to consider when handling and interpreting data, especially when dealing with small data samples
alsooo, I noticed that they uploaded GOML side stream matches so we can finally see alphicans, darkwolf, holy and istudying in action
(I just saw alphicans vs nairo match and, while incredibly hype and all, I can't help but feel like alphicans got a bit lucky that nairo knew very little on how to play the Mac matchup... not that the matchup is terrible for Mac, mind you, but he got away with a lot of stuff that should not have worked and nairo got himself punished lots of times for not respecting Mac's unique attributes like armored smashes
still, it was a great display and a very fun match to watch)
yeahh, sorry for going a little off topic
tfw nobody replies to my posts
Sounds awful easy to bait out... By the time you've "reacted" they could of drifted or jumped away and Roy's eating a hard punish, by my count.
Ryuga placed 2nd landlocked and Earth/YOC have had a few top 8 placings in Japan as well. Ryo placed 9th in a national and that definitely shouldn't be discounted.
I agree with most of this chart but zss should be moved to even and robin to disadvantage.
I've seen this chart before, Falco isn't free
Just to clarify one thing, Cosmos only wins TLOC brackets in Dallas (which are fairly stacked with some of Dallas's best players, but I wouldn't say it represents to absolute top level in TX, considering its a Dallas weekly). Right now we don't know how he'd measure up to the other parts of the TX, he doesn't travel. His Corrin is fairly dominant though, ever since he dropped Pikachu and started using Corrin, he's gotten much better results (his Pikachu is still very good).Ike / Fire Emblem Discussion? Let me weigh in on a few things...
Corrin:
Along with counterplay, Corrin received these subtle nerfs to his mobility:
It doesn't seem like much, but run and air speeds were reduced to Ness levels, but with average aerial acceleration. Corrin's defensive ground movement is still awesome with superior dash->shield and average fox trot frames, but Corrin has less control over space than she would like. SideB also has worse frame data than once thought and recovery is merely average or slightly above.
- Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.15
- Run Speed: 1.5 -> 1.45
- Air Speed: 1 -> .97
Corrin still has a lot of great things, but once you play people, you have to put in quite a bit of work for the win. Corrin's still great, but he has to work more than what was previously thought, and that mobility can be used against him.
Marth vs. Ike:
Marth is probably better than Ike. He is just more well rounded vs. more of the cast. Ike has more volatile MUs, reminiscent of DK and Bowser due to the way they all punish and fish for grabs.
Ike's worst MUs are:
We know it's Ike's disadvantage:
Even Ike's worst MUs are "heavy MUs" where Ike can still obtain occasional confirms and good reward when the opportunity arises, since he can frontally combat most hitboxes directed at him if read.
Probably Ike's disadvantage:
Most zoners depending on how you look at it,
Ike is not good at lower levels of play and doesn't have as obvious a learning curve. Players will need to be consistent with some odd tech such as the footstool combos and dtilt->bair, combat walking autocancel quick draw, etc.
Ike with his fair buff a few months ago hasn't been explored much by the top Ike players (or only Ryo now) until more recently, and it was admittedly large to his metagame and viability.
Marth has way more rep at mid level, similar rep from high level mains, and way more rep from top players as secondaries (Ally, Leo, False, and Nick Riddle just off the top of my head)
Results that I know of (minus Japan):
Corrin: Cosmic Cosmos wins almost every Texas Challonge that I see, he's dominant over there and I think this is probably understated. You see him as secondaries all over. Ryo can pull out Corrin for more favorable/stable MUs and take sets off players like MVD, though his overall results solo haven't been able to match solo Ike just yet, and has been used much better as a secondary. Vapour in Canada upset Ontario's Blacktwins at EGLX. John #s and other tristate people use Corrin every now and then as well.
Marth: Mr. E, Pugwest, and farther down the line due to split usage, False. Mr. E took a set off Nairo and all 3 continue to beat high level players. I haven't seen much of Pugwest outside of his region, but he can take sets off Marss and beat everyone else in his region. Also took a set off PikaPika where Mr. E lost.
Ike:
Ryo still beats many good players, though he is getting upset more often. You can still see him take sets off M2k, K9, or Scatt here and there, though it's not a consistent win rate of course.
There are some Hidden Bosses that perform decently in tournaments, such as Yoh and Jage in Europe, or Justice in Oregon.
Waldo from NYC has started to get more top 8 placings in his region and took sets from players like Marss and Pugwest.
I've been to a few larger tournaments recently, being able to take sets off of Pugwest, V115, Chrim Foish, and Holy, though the latter 3 have beaten me in sets before as well.
Rango still has taken sets off players like 6WX and reflex, does OK in his region.
It's consistent with other mid-tier characters, but Ike's average rep is still very low. Ryo is Ike's only top player rep right now with Ryuga gone and the rest below him getting decent/improving results.
Poor Emblem Lord, forgetting characters have aerial deceleration because Ryu is all that matters.
a heavy. On Kuroganehammer, he's the lightest character in the heavyweight category and only a single unit heavier than . Notably, the following characters that are heavier than Lucario were not listed: (already mentioned and just seems to be general forgetfulness since he's 4th heaviest). . It's to my understanding that weight isn't the only qualification for being deemed a 'heavy' since Samus is often deemed a 'floaty' which I'm pretty sure is due to her low gravity and/or fall speed. Just interesting since heaviness is an actual, measurable thing but the term 'heavy' usually requires more than that. was discussed a few pages back to and seems to be a reoccurring character to talk about. One thing often brought up is his poor framedata and poor options up close. That leads me to a minor point I'd like to bring up and something to ponder. Minor point being that 's item toss is tied for best for forward and 2nd best for up and back (randomly, has first for the latter two). is often mentioned to be threatening with a bomb in hand since it allows followups but since he loses his grab while holding it and bombs don't do anything to shields, he 'loses' to shields. I'm just sitting here wondering if more bomb use from could yield him better results. He also gets follow ups from bombs, after throwing it, it's hitbox becomes active on frame 7, the same as his jab and with an faf of 21 which is faster than his jab. He can also use it while moving be it walk, run, airborne, dicit, jcit or pp. The shorter fuse has to be kept in mind and obviously the lower mobility and also loses access to his grab when holding a bomb but unlike , he can drop them safely on the ground (C4 being the term often used) which allows him to easily regrab it or use his grab, granted the fuse will be shorter from that and it can't be moved much afterwards.'s weaknesses being poor options when the enemy is in his face, I wonder, has there ever been a top or high tier character in any Smash game with that weakness? It seems like a pretty crippling weakness for viability. I'm not familiar enough with the frame data of the previous Smash games and the best example that comes to mind for Sm4sh is but even then, dtilt and jab are faster than anything Link has (if only by a single frame in certain cases). aren't listed as heavies despite weighing more than Lucario. 2. More bomb use from perhaps? 3. Any high or top tiers in any Smash game with the weakness of poor cqc? Best that comes to mind is .
,, , , ,, , , , , , and . If we're counting secondaries, we also have , , and . Then theres some talent that fell out of the PR, like , , and .
I've been meaning to respond to this, I've only just had the time. I've shortened the quote to the part I think you should reconsider. Mainly, I definitely feel like someone having success with a character outside of pools should be counted.
Nidtendofreak
could help me out? ;3
Fam sometimes......you just gotta do it. Mindgames and baiting options be DAMNED!!!!
Lucario dies a lot later than some of those above him due to his Gravity being lower. His frame data is very heavy-like, and his damage likewise without accounting for Aura modifiers. Gotta draw the line somewhere.
Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7W7ET0idq8. What a simple search on YouTube can yield.Is the Ally vs ZeRo set up on youtube (link)?
What are people's thoughts on
Shield has some sort of mechanic that offsets the damage lowering that Shulk deals; you kill at basically the same percents as you would in vanilla.
doesn't get represented more. He's such a great character. I always feel comfortable when playing as him, I feel like I have no real difficulty against any character.
Note that when most people say heavyweight, they usually mean a power character archetype. Mega Man or someone like that tends to compete with other zoners when it comes to appealing to certain types of players, so it's better to discuss things in terms of the power character archetype specifically. Conventional power characters generally have high kill power, above average weights, middling or worse overall mobility, strong punish games relative to their neutral games, and are primarily melee-oriented fighters as opposed to ones who are more projectile oriented. The main characters who fit this archetype are Bowser, DK, D3, Ganondorf, Zard, Ike, and Ryu, though there are others who fit less cleanly into the power character mold. DK, Ike, and Ryu are fairly viable, Bowser is sort of viable, and the others are marginally viable at best. Ryu is honestly probably the only one with a decent chance of winning a national, and he has built-in technical barriers to mitigate the skill curve issues that would arise were the others made similarly powerful. Actually none of these characters period outside of Cloud and Ryu have much shot at winning it all at a national, so really the pickings are kind of slim if you're talking strictly high-to-top tier heavies, no matter how generously you define the term.
's kit means that even with some weak mobility and neutral tools, his sheer damage output and kill potential means he can just ~win~ games, even in situations where it looks like he should lose. That's why it's hard to rank him
I'd say only Cloud, Ryu and Mega Man are truly viable out of those, probably Yoshi, Falcon and Lucario as well at least if your definition of viable is more lenient (it's hard to say because not every character has similar representation). Mii Brawler's source of reference is too tiny to say anything, while ROB, DK, Ike and Bowser get wrecked way too hard in some matchups to do anything without considerable help from a secondary. Wario was considered a high tier early on, but then he faded into completely obscurity barring Japan where seemingly any character can top 8 a national.
Emblem Lord
has explained well why the Pits aren't that good, and to be fair, someone could probably whip one up for most of these.
I think the main problem is putting a character at a really high spot in the tier list when the only thing they can use to back up it up is theory. Sure the character can be good, but in my opinion, if they haven't shown it, they don't deserve that high of a spot.
