Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

Only those who are committed to maximizing their meta and balance their character honesty with their X-Factor.

It all depends on the neutral game, but also jumpsquats and matchup consistency against Greninja, Ike, and ESAM.

...Did you just string together all of the most common buzzwords in this thread into a single post?

 

[C0rvus]

I would be more convinced if he had mentioned "removing toxic elements from your play" or something along those lines.

Honestly it reads like a subreddit simulator post, but rather CCI simulator.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also, re: forward throw talk that I started, the more I think about ti the more I see only the Pits use it with any real consistency. Bayonetta usually would end stocks much earlier. Bowser has up throw combos and flying slam as alternatives. As mentioned, it's the worst of Lucas's kill throws.

It just fits into their gameplan better then the others. The Pits are much faster then most of them and get grabs more. Sliding from a dash grab for a better position helps too.

It's a pretty unique strength though, most character's strongest are back and up. Wonder why it's so rare?

 

[Ninety]

Just a question, who legitimately tries to 20xx their characters anymore?

What does this even mean?

 

[|RK|]

Just saw LordMix vs Ally - dude rolls onstage a lot. To think, if he watched ZeRo's video, could have beat Ally.

Also, he's really aggressive - he approaches even with the lead. I feel like he could have done better against Wrath if he chilled when he was up.

 

[Djent]

ESAM 3-2 over JJRockets in the most nailbiting set I've seen today.

If someone tells you one character in the vs. MU has a solid advantage, don't believe them. It's extraordinarily volatile, with Diddy dominating onstage and getting massacred offstage. Definitely rewatch this one if you missed it, because it exemplifies everything both sides have been saying for months without much data.

 

[Trifroze]

Sounds like nearly every heavy in every other fighting game, except in smash context.

Heavies have been consistently **** across Smash history. If being heavy is -gasp- an advantage for once, then world's smallest violin to the fast and light top tiers not being able to kill them easily. You say it's frustrating for a heavyweight to be able to kill earlier and die later? Well it's a hell of a lot more frustrating for heavies to have their **** kicked in by enemies they can't tag or avoid.

This is one of the reasons I'm cool with rage. It benefits superheavies over conventional light top tiers, and the fatties have damn well earned a break.

- Being able to sustain a lot of hits, having trouble approaching and then doing heavy damage when you get in
- Becoming stronger the more you take damage

These are not the same thing. Rage is a comeback mechanic (like ultra combos in SF4 for example), plain and simple. It's hype for the viewers and less competitive for the players. It's fine to an extent because it doesn't have that much effect and it can make things interesting, but then DK and Bowser were given ~80% and 90% kill setups from grabs that turn into ~60% and 70% with rage, far less than that if we're speaking of lightweight characters. It's not okay to get so much out of one guess that's as fast and safe as their grabs are, especially for relatively fast characters like DK and Bowser. It's a completely disproportionate risk reward ratio for a single option, and it doesn't matter what the rest of their movesets and problems are like. It's bad design.

 

[Pazx]

DIDDY IS THE BEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME UNTIL YOU EDGEGUARD HIM (see also: Cloud)

SDSDDSDSAFDSFSDF

~~~

Djent is right about everything he said, super volatile MU and god that was a nailbiter of a set. It's definitely an awkward MU for Diddy at any rate, Pika's small stature + extremely powerful edgeguards are enough to make it difficult. Not to get on the "haha ESAM is bad" train but I think if ESAM chose to play a little safer and just generally more passive it wouldn't have been quite as close as it was (eg. don't do dumb **** on Diddy's shield when you're at 120% and he has a banana in hand).

LET'S GO JJROCKETS!

 

[Fenny]

What does this even mean?

optimised I guess?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What does this even mean?

Trying to fully Optimize their character?

It seems like people are just relying on fundamentals, reactions, and w/e player-related stuff to win.

 

[Ninety]

- Being able to sustain a lot of hits, having trouble approaching and then doing heavy damage when you get in
- Becoming stronger the more you take damage

These are not the same thing. Rage is a comeback mechanic (like ultra combos in SF4 for example), plain and simple. It's hype for the viewers and less competitive for the players. It's fine to an extent because it doesn't have that much effect and it can make things interesting, but then DK and Bowser were given ~80% and 90% kill setups from grabs that turn into ~60% and 70% with rage, far less than that if we're speaking of lightweight characters. It's not okay to get so much out of one guess that's as fast and safe as their grabs are, especially for relatively fast characters like DK and Bowser. It's a completely disproportionate risk reward ratio for a single option, and it doesn't matter what the rest of their movesets and problems are like. It's bad design.

That would work, if the heavies' upsides made up for their downsides. They don't. Heavies' supposed higher damage output is moot when lighter and faster characters can simply get in much more often and confirm much more attacks in each neutral interaction. Rage as a comeback mechanic does benefit heavies disproportionately -- but that's balanced out by the fact that, on a level playing field, heavies are much more likely to get to higher percents much more quickly, despite their high damage per hit, because the competitive format (1v1 with minimum random items) strongly favors character with high mobility, combos and strong neutral games. Some heavies get a lot of reward off a few confirms, most notably DK and Bowser's grabs, but they are much, much less likely to even get those in the first place against quicker characters.

Is rage a polarizing mechanic that makes matchups more extreme? Definitely. Is it bad game design? Debatable. Yes, it does suck to get pivot grabbed by DK as Sheik and die at 65% to a Ding Dong, but being juggled half the match and getting combo'd to hell and back every time you lose neutral (which is often) sucks in the other direction too. Asymmetric balance is a thing -- not that I'd call a Fox/Sheik/Diddy versus DK/Bowser/Ganondorf fight balanced in most cases, but the point is that each of those groups can **** up the other due to exploiting their strengths. In the past and present, the lights' strengths in a 1v1 format were much, much more relevant to the point of making the heavies' all but moot. Dying 40% later really doesn't matter if they can get that 40% in ten seconds while you can't win neutral once. Rage has the effect that greater survivability translates to higher reward off the already-risky (in the context of neutral interactions) options most heavies have. Lights never played fair. Heavies don't have to either. That's what makes matchups fun, isn't it? alsowhynobodyplayspit

tl;dr rage-fueled early kills aren't more unfair than the neutral, disadvantage and damage racking benefits light and fast characters have over heavyweights

 

[R3D3MON]

Trying to fully Optimize their character?

It seems like people are just relying on fundamentals, reactions, and w/e player-related stuff to win.

This game ain't melee or PM.

 

[Nysyr]

I think it's more frustrating than anything to witness a match where one player is at around 60%, racks up the opponent's damage from a similar percent all the way to 150%+ without getting hit once, but can't kill them because they're just that heavy, and now after all of this they are literally just as even as they were before.

Once the "mid tier doing well!!" -hype wears off almost everyone will probably feel this way.

That's funny. Complete opposite of what is seen in MMORPGs, where classes with annoying buttons like Rogue are generally more hated and considered dishonest compared to a class like Warriors.

I generally hate the sense of superiority some have for characters where they feel like they should be considered more honest when they land more hits to get the kill, when the reality is that they are gifted with stupidly good buttons.

 

[Trifroze]

Is it bad game design? Debatable.

DK's grab: frame 8, can be used OoS, roughly 20 frames of endlag.
Dash grab: frame 10, can be used out of a dash, roughly 30 frames of endlag.
Pivot grab: frame 11, has a lot of range, roughly 25 frames of endlag.

DK's grab is a fast option with very little endlag that can be used out of shield, out of dash and as a pivot, and it leads to kills at 70-80%, or 50% in the most extreme situations (without platforms involved). Can also be used at lower percents to do 20-40% of damage without staling the option that is used as a kill move later on.

Fighting games are designed around risk and reward, and characters are given a vast pool of moves to choose from for different situations. If one option has such a good risk reward ratio and is applicable to so many situations that most of the character's moveset barely matters, it's objectively bad design.

I generally hate the sense of superiority some have for characters where they feel like they should be considered more honest when they land more hits to get the kill, when the reality is that they are gifted with stupidly good buttons.

Like I explained above, grab by itself is usually an excellent tool and if you need to land such a tool only 3 times per stock, you're likely putting in a lot less effort than someone who has better tools but has to win several times more exchanges. I play ZSS who gets kills at 30% because of rage and platforms. I know what I'm talking about.

 

[LancerStaff]

If you don't want to get screwed by rage... Why not pick a character who can take a hit? God forbid your fragile speedsters and glass cannons are easy to kill. Really, remember the majority of the cast have to deal with dumb top tier MUs. Sheik deserves a few dumb MUs as well.

DK's pretty overcentralized but remember the entire game is overcentralized around 10-15 characters that aren't him. DK's design isn't very great in a 1v1 sense but in the space of Smash as a whole it's what works.

 

[Jeronado]

Trying to fully Optimize their character?

It seems like people are just relying on fundamentals, reactions, and w/e player-related stuff to win.

Yeah I get that feeling too. That people just figure out regular bread and butter stuff and than just play fundamentals vs. fundamentals instead of trying to push their character to the limit. The difference between Tyrant and Ito stands out to me as an example.

Anyway to answer your question the first names that come to mind for me are: Ito, VoiD, Abadango, and Shulk mains.

 

[Ninety]

Fighting games are designed around risk and reward, and characters are given a vast pool of moves to choose from for different situations. If one option has such a good risk reward ratio and is applicable to so many situations that most of the character's moveset barely matters, it's objectively bad design.

If that was your point all along, my apologies for misunderstanding. DK and Bowser are definitely overcentralized around their grab kill confirms nowadays, no argument there. But I do not agree that those options are, in and of themselves, problematic from a game design standpoint. It's that they have to rely on them because kill confirms are especially a necessity for superheavies given that landing raw kill moves in neutral is not generally feasible, and the rest of their kits isn't up to par. Get past Ding Dong / Whatever-it's-called-this-week-Bowser-uthrow-uair percentage, though, and killing is a lot tougher for them. I'm all for removing overpowered and overcentralizing kill confirms from characters' kits (good riddance to Bayo, ZSS and MK's ladders), but if it's justified for anyone, it's previous-low-tier superheavies.

At any rate, this might be deviating a bit from the topic. Rage is a double-edged sword, after all -- it makes the kill windows for those combos earlier, but not wider. If rage Ding Dong stops connecting at 80% then that's a blow against DK's gameplan as well. I guess what I'm saying is that yeah, it's dumb, but it's acceptably so given the context of the characters that have them.

tl;dr if someone's gonna have stupid-ass low percent kill confirms, let it be the characters that are total ass without them, not those that are pretty good regardless. If, say, Roy got some jablock-into-charged-fsmash at 60% combo, I know I wouldn't complain, the boi needs it.

 

[Blobface]

Regarding rage, this is more a problem with grab confirms themselves and not rage. I've talked about this a while back. Rage both increases the knockback of the throw and the knockback of the comboing attack, meaning you're closer to the blastzone when you get hit, causing all sorts of stupid stuff to happen.

As an example, Ganon's custom Up-B 2 Dark Fists launches the opponent up then hits them with an uppercut. With no rage, It kills Mario with no DI at 72%. Max Rage Dark Fists, despite Max Rage being a 1.2x multiplier (IIRC) kills Mario with no DI at 36%. That's effectively double the knockback.

This kind of stuff happens especially strongly with vertical grab confirms, and are the main reason I believe that grab confirms in this game are inherently bad design.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

So, if Ganon and Jiggly get buffed, will shulk be a candidate for bottom tier?

 

[my_T]

Like I explained above, grab by itself is usually an excellent tool and if you need to land such a tool only 3 times per stock, you're likely putting in a lot less effort than someone who has better tools but has to win several times more exchanges. I play ZSS who gets kills at 30% because of rage and platforms. I know what I'm talking about.

Lmao really?!

That moment when you're running circles around your opponent and you have to make life decisions...

"Do i throw out this lagless auto-cancelling move...or the other lagless auto-cancelling move?"

"I guess i'll just keep throwing stuff at them from halfway across the stage."

The grappler archetype has way more commitment in their tool kit than characters like ZSS, sheik, diddy, or zoners. Thats why these characters have all the kill options and high damage output in the first damn place.

 

[meleebrawler]

Regarding rage, this is more a problem with grab confirms themselves and not rage. I've talked about this a while back. Rage both increases the knockback of the throw and the knockback of the comboing attack, meaning you're closer to the blastzone when you get hit, causing all sorts of stupid stuff to happen.

As an example, Ganon's custom Up-B 2 Dark Fists launches the opponent up then hits them with an uppercut. With no rage, It kills Mario with no DI at 72%. Max Rage Dark Fists, despite Max Rage being a 1.2x multiplier (IIRC) kills Mario with no DI at 36%. That's effectively double the knockback.

This kind of stuff happens especially strongly with vertical grab confirms, and are the main reason I believe that grab confirms in this game are inherently bad design.

Still beats chaingrabs. They single-handedly ruined heavies, as / makes plain to see.

Either you make all throws positioning based which makes grabs relatively unrewarding even if their damage was raised to Mewtwo+ level, or we go back to 64 days where basically all throws killed.

 

[Hero_2_All]

Yeah I get that feeling too. That people just figure out regular bread and butter stuff and than just play fundamentals vs. fundamentals instead of trying to push their character to the limit. The difference between Tyrant and Ito stands out to me as an example.

Anyway to answer your question the first names that come to mind for me are: Ito, VoiD, Abadango, and Shulk mains.

Ito's MK tech execution is near flawless. His hands move like a blur when hes executing stuff. Funny thing that you should bring up the Ito-Tyrant comparisson. Once I heard Ito make the same comparison. He bassically said that if he could lab with tyrant and refine him then tyrant would become a monster (not exacy quote... was a coupple months ago).

 

[Trifroze]

Lmao really?!

That moment when you're running circles around your opponent and you have to make life decisions...

"Do i throw out this lagless auto-cancelling move...or the other lagless auto-cancelling move?"

"I guess i'll just keep throwing stuff at them from halfway across the stage."

The grappler archetype has way more commitment in their tool kit than characters like ZSS, sheik, diddy, or zoners. Thats why these characters have all the kill options and high damage output in the first damn place.

That moment when you're using Sheik and you hard read or hard punish your opponent at 60% only to get close to nothing out of it. This might come as a surprise, but sometimes there's pressure in being a character who simply lacks options to bring a losing game back with a single swing.

As ZSS with a little bit of rage for example, it's quite reassuring to know that if an opposing high gravity lightweight messes up at around 30% and you grab them as a punish or catch any kind of a character with an uair above a platform, they're dead. You may have been losing by 50%, 100% or a stock and 100%, but in some situations and matchups you can bring the game back with one punish/read at any time. Yes, neutral is tougher than it is for other top tiers and you actually have to maximize your punishes and advantage which is difficult, but reads and the opponent's mistakes are super easy for you.

The entire gameplan of heavies works this way, and DK/Bowser do this with a single move which is the best option literally more than half the time. There's a reason some low tier heavy mains actually don't want an xthrow uair combo for their character, even if it would lead into their mains becoming viable. It simplifies the character and takes the fun out of playing them.

 

[Blobface]

Still beats chaingrabs. They single-handedly ruined heavies, as / makes plain to see.

Either you make all throws positioning based which makes grabs relatively unrewarding even if their damage was raised to Mewtwo+ level, or we go back to 64 days where basically all throws killed.

Should have clarified. I meant Killing grab confirms. Being able to combo off a grab for extra damage is fine, but killing with a combo off a grab has the problems I mentioned above.

 

[Yonder]

DK's gameplay should have been focused on spikes and meteor smashes. What does he have, 4 of them? I think the ding dong window should be nerfed akin to Bowser's so that it isn't his only ko tool and can be used for damage racking more instead. His KOs should come from spikes or meteor smashes, somehow. Let's face it, his fair is only usable outside of ding dong and his dair is just ok. I really would like to see a meteor smash/spike centralized character in smash, but DK can't go deep enough to set one up so he goes for ding dong 99% of the time...might see a bair chain offstage PS that move is amazing.

I see more spikes from Cloud and his dair...hmm, Cloud's dair does a better job at spiking than DK's and killing than Bowser's with no lag. His Fair is a weaker version of DK's without the 900 years of end lag. His bair is DK's but...well pretty equal, it might have more range though. And his uair is like DK's, a giant horizontal brick wall, but lingers longers.

You're starting to irk me Cloud.

 

[Appledees]

Honestly giving a character a simple "xthrow to combo stuff/possibly a kill move" is the most horribly laziest way to fix a character.

Its basically giving them silly bandage but not actually fixing anything. The character will probably get better yeah but its honestly not a healthy way of buffing and making a character better.

 

[R3D3MON]

Blobface doesn't your example show just how janky rage is?

Y Yonder if you want DK to be a spike-based character than you might want his spike moves to not be laggy af. Also you might want to enlarge the spike hitboxes on his spike moves and make them out-prioritize the weak hitboxes.

Also I don't get why giving a kill confirm is a bad thing in a game that has already shown itself to allow players to survive ludicrous % (even with bad DI at times). Do people really want everybody to live to 200%??? Do people want a campy, slow-paced game where everybody has to fish real hard for a kill because nobody dies at %s where they really should be dead (lol heavies vs. sheik)? Also giving a character grab kill confirm probably means they re-adjusted the base KB and KB growth values on the said-kill confirm throw so that it now functions much better as a combo tool in general and opens up a lot more options for characters that previously lacked reliable ways of racking damage. Do people want characters to have LESS options??? Why are combo options from heavy characters being considered bad? Do everybody want heavy characters to be one-hit wonders? Look at how that turned out for poor ganon...

Also if people are really gonna complain about heavies having kill confirms than they should probably also complain about ness, which requires absolutely no technical execution other than flicking the c-stick in one direction. Also unlike some heavies ness has an actually workable neutral.

EDIT: Also I'd much prefer comebacks coming from smart/proper execution of strings and combos that ultimately leads to a kill confirm (grab confirm or not) rather than some rage-induced BS that makes some characters super saiyans all of a sudden (****ing lucario...).

 

[Ninety]

Honestly giving a character a simple "xthrow to combo stuff/possibly a kill move" is the most horribly laziest way to fix a character.

Its basically giving them silly bandage but not actually fixing anything. The character will probably get better yeah but its honestly not a healthy way of buffing and making a character better.

I dunno. Robin's Checkmate did wonders for his gameplan without negating his intended flaws, nor overcentralizing his design around it.

 

[Charoite]

Is not the laziest way, character than cant kill or dont have guaranteed kill confirms, and doesn't have good neutral need a reason to play it, were the only character who were given with a kill confirm, Up throw to combo, they dont have stellar mobility or frame data to make up for their disadvantage state, so yes buffing a character advantage state can help the character, in the same way buffing their neutral or disadvantage state does to all depend on the character and their design.
If you dont want grab kill set ups might as well nerf every single kill confirm they are not different that down tilt to Up smash, down tilt to up air, up tilt to up B, dash attack to up B, down tilt to up B, down tilt to Fair, and so on,
You want pure neutral or disadvantage state in this game, then not complain about sets taking longer because nobody can kill útil +100%, do you want more 1.1.6 in this game?

 

[DunnoBro]

Robin's neutral was fine, but he was a campy character that provided no reason why you shouldn't just go ham on him since his punish game was so mediocre.

Similar with DK/Bowser in the "Why shouldn't I just go ham on you" department, except their major flaw is landing. I think bowser would be a more balanced, overall better character if he had cloud's dair instead of the Koo-Pa or whatever. Or DK a decent frontal hitting move, because when you hit DK he gets turned towards you thus has no "get off me" option. Exacerbating his issue getting comboed.

 

[Ninety]

Well, Robin does also suck at landing. That endlag on dair, ugh.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Just because most top tiers have superb neutrals doesn't justify for DK and Bowser bopping other characters who have worse neutrals than theirs. I gurantee you that any character who's neuttal is supbar or okay when fighting against DK or Bowser probably gets destroyed by them just because a single overtuned grab confirm at 60-80% converts into so much, not to mention they get like 20% from a grab anyways. The only reason why people have not complained about this stupid stuff is because most of the time DK or Bowser are fighting top tiers whose neutrals are just on a different level of good then theirs allowing them to negate the grab confirm somewhat. I would rather have for heavies to deal heavy damage from grabs then for them to kill at early percents. I am mostly saying this cause I have seen a lot of non top tier characters struggle vs DK or Bowser due to their reward off of Grabs; not like their grabs are like ZSS who can't fish for grabs.

 

[Chalice]

Ito's MK tech execution is near flawless. His hands move like a blur when hes executing stuff. Funny thing that you should bring up the Ito-Tyrant comparisson. Once I heard Ito make the same comparison. He bassically said that if he could lab with tyrant and refine him then tyrant would become a monster (not exacy quote... was a coupple months ago).

Ito can play just fine using ONE hand

He came to Fanime Con here in NorCal and he was sitting next to me playing friendlies. I looked down at his controller to find him bodying people with one hand on the controller

#mymindgotblown

 

[Nobie]

Just because most top tiers have superb neutrals doesn't justify for DK and Bowser bopping other characters who have worse neutrals than theirs. I gurantee you that any character who's neuttal is supbar or okay when fighting against DK or Bowser probably gets destroyed by them just because a single overtuned grab confirm at 60-80% converts into so much, not to mention they get like 20% from a grab anyways. The only reason why people have not complained about this stupid stuff is because most of the time DK or Bowser are fighting top tiers whose neutrals are just on a different level of good then theirs allowing them to negate the grab confirm somewhat. I would rather have for heavies to deal heavy damage from grabs then for them to kill at early percents. I am mostly saying this cause I have seen a lot of non top tier characters struggle vs DK or Bowser due to their reward off of Grabs; not like their grabs are like ZSS who can't fish for grabs.

I've seen a lot of DK matches from DKWIll and others, and I don't recall too many characters having an especially hard time with DK's neutral. It's a decent neutral, and obviously Ding Dong wrecks some characters harder than others, but across the board from top tier to bottom tier there doesn't seem to be a clear indicator of characters that suffer immensely against DK except maybe Jigglypuff or something.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I've seen a lot of DK matches from DKWIll and others, and I don't recall too many characters having an especially hard time with DK's neutral. It's a decent neutral, and obviously Ding Dong wrecks some characters harder than others, but across the board from top tier to bottom tier there doesn't seem to be a clear indicator of characters that suffer immensely against DK except maybe Jigglypuff or something.

The only one I can think of is Kirby, and even then he doesn't even die that often to Ding Dong because of how tight the window is against him. The majority of DK kills against Kirby come from bairs and utilt.

EDIT: Why do people want homogenized characters and 50/50 MUs across the board? Play Divekick or something. Fatties can't have advantageous MUs now?

 

[my_T]

That moment when you're using Sheik and you hard read or hard punish your opponent at 60% only to get close to nothing out of it. This might come as a surprise, but sometimes there's pressure in being a character who simply lacks options to bring a losing game back with a single swing.

As ZSS with a little bit of rage for example, it's quite reassuring to know that if an opposing high gravity lightweight messes up at around 30% and you grab them as a punish or catch any kind of a character with an uair above a platform, they're dead. You may have been losing by 50%, 100% or a stock and 100%, but in some situations and matchups you can bring the game back with one punish/read at any time. Yes, neutral is tougher than it is for other top tiers and you actually have to maximize your punishes and advantage which is difficult, but reads and the opponent's mistakes are super easy for you.

The entire gameplan of heavies works this way, and DK/Bowser do this with a single move which is the best option literally more than half the time. There's a reason some low tier heavy mains actually don't want an xthrow uair combo for their character, even if it would lead into their mains becoming viable. It simplifies the character and takes the fun out of playing them.

For a character like sheik, ZSS, pika, or sonic there's never a time where you get "nothing"

They all have good advantage states, and some of them have superb edge guarding which can net an early stock. ESAM's performance with pikachu at Combo Breaker is a prime example. Trying to make a comeback with these characters isn't nearly as difficult as you make it out to be.

As for grappler types, you neglected to mention that their awful disadvantage states can cause them to lose just as much as they would gain on a successful interaction. DK/Bowser get combo'd for days, have bad landing options, and bad ledge options, and OK recoveries. Ness's is combo food, has OK landing and ledge options, but has a terrible recovery.

and I remember those days before DK and Bowser got their uthrow>uair...they were terrible and IMO not fun to use because they were just so bad at everything

 

[Jaguar360]

Combo Breaker results since no one posted: http://combobreaker.challonge.com/2016_wiiu_1v1

1st - PG | ESAM
2nd - E2C | Tyroy (1.15)
3rd - GGA | JJRockets
4th - PG | MVD

5th
GGA | Dan
cR dekillsage

7th
Zinoto
Skorpio

9th
Shinjoebi
Ho3K | Dill
Ksev
GG Wv | Regralht

13th
SWAG
Ho3K | Helpr
VexX | Day
UR | Ned

 

[my_T]

Honestly giving a character a simple "xthrow to combo stuff/possibly a kill move" is the most horribly laziest way to fix a character.

Its basically giving them silly bandage but not actually fixing anything. The character will probably get better yeah but its honestly not a healthy way of buffing and making a character better.

They're trying to design them to fit the mold of traditional heavies in fighting games like Zangief in SF, Haggar in MVC, or King in tekken

Smash 4 comes closer to portraying a traditional fighting game than any of the other games in the Smash series

 

[Pancracio17]

Honestly giving a character a simple "xthrow to combo stuff/possibly a kill move" is the most horribly laziest way to fix a character.

Its basically giving them silly bandage but not actually fixing anything. The character will probably get better yeah but its honestly not a healthy way of buffing and making a character better.

actually, i think buffing the heavies advantage state is a pretty good idea, they should hit hard after all. what boggles my mind is that they have meh recoveries, they should live long after all but these guys get gimped at 0 and the survivability is gone. D3 is the best at this. At least not every character can take advantage.

 

[KamikazePotato]

I'm not a huge fan ot kill-confirm-off-grabs, but in the context of Smash as a whole, players of lightweight characters complaining about heavies killing them too early is quite frankly hilarious. I suppose dominating 90% of the match with a significantly better neutral game isn't enough to make them happy?