Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ghidorah14]

I think the only thing that could change would be divekick bringing you not as high so the followups are damage based and not roofios, or Witch Twist's hitboxes being less... extremely stupid. You can just straight up Witch Twist into a Cloud Dair. What is that?

It's this thing called priority.

 

[Das Koopa]

is this b8

Ryu = melee fox
Bayonetta = melee falco

what

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I didnt see Esam doing a lot of uthrow thunders at Pound, was there a reason for that?

 

[kaz99]

I didnt see Esam doing a lot of uthrow thunders at Pound, was there a reason for that?

You can DI out of it. It's not a reliable set up

 

[BunbUn129]

Comparing Bayonetta to Melee Fox or Falco is almost blasphemous. These three have overpowering kits. The difference? Melee Fox and Falco don't have one dimensional game plans, require far more tech skill than anything Bayonetta has, and are far less forgiving when it comes to making mistakes.

 

[Megamang]

It's this thing called priority.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCLnC-ejPQ


No, it isn't. What you're seeing, is stupid hitboxes.

Don't be snarky when you're wrong pls.

 

[ReroRero]

People complain about Mewtwo now ? Like really ?

Just remember that he is still one of the lightest character in the game combined with a huge hurtbox. Of course he's gonna make up for it somehow, that's how a glass canon works !

 

[FallofBrawl]

He's not comparing them to Melee fox and falco, he's comparing the gap between their technical precision to Ryu/Bayo's.

Melee fox has a much higher techskill ceiling than falco, holistically, falco is easier to pick up for those who are unfamiliar with melee. (most of it is basically how falco's jump squat works vs fox)

Ryu has a much higher techskill ceiling than Bayo, and holistically, bayo is easier to pick up for those unfamiliar with the game.

 

[KillerJawz]

People complain about Mewtwo now ? Like really ?

Just remember that he is still one of the lightest character in the game combined with a huge hurtbox. Of course he's gonna make up for it somehow, that's how a glass canon works !

people complain about anything that does well, and then pipe down when their character's the one winning.

 

[BunbUn129]

people complain about anything that does well, and then pipe down when their character's the one winning.

Glad to see my predictions are coming through.

M2 is broken and toxic to competitive play. Abadango is good but not that good. He was carried by his broken character. We should definitely ban Mewtwo because he's ruining the meta game.


Edit: I'm calling it, what I just typed above is going to become a common saying.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Since pretty much every character discord is talking about this, I'm gonna tell you guys this too.....

Bayo is banned in Spain. Apprantatly Japan is probably going to ban her too.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Comparing Bayonetta to Melee Fox or Falco is almost blasphemous. These three have overpowering kits. The difference? Melee Fox and Falco don't have one dimensional game plans, require far more tech skill than anything Bayonetta has, and are far less forgiving when it comes to making mistakes.

thats literally the difference between smash 4 and melee

 

[BunbUn129]

Since pretty much every character discord is talking about this, I'm gonna tell you guys this too.....

Bayo is banned in Spain. Apprantatly Japan is probably going to ban her too.

1.1.6 isn't going to nerf Bayonetta.

It's going to make her effectively unplayable at this rate.

TheGoodGuava Bayonetta has a Melee-esque advantage state, but not a Melee-esque disadvantage to balance that out.

 

[ReroRero]

people complain about anything that does well, and then pipe down when their character's the one winning.

Yeah but, if the complaining intensifies, that could reach Sakurai ears and then... you know the rest. So I think you're profile pic is kind of appropriate

 

[R3D3MON]

Well if it is for the better of the overall balance and enjoyment of this game....lol

 

[FallofBrawl]

I never heard anything about banning Bayo in Japan, have a source?

And Spain has banned characters from Blazblue and other competitive fighting games before, they're pretty quick on the trigger.

If they want to travel out of their country for tournaments, then it's their loss.

Some of the reasoning comes from the fact that "Bayo's mains think she's broken, and Bayo secondaries have dropped her (guessing so they dont feel shamed?)" Which is absolutely laughable.

Even if she gets nerfed next patch, they won't be near close to other community metas, as they've probably have developed legit counterplay against her. In the end they're hurting themselves IMO.

 

[bc1910]

No other character in this game can match the guaranteed damage or kill conversions that Bayo can get off a simple punish. Her advantage state and punish game is in a different league to the rest of the cast including Ryu, who does not have the air to air punish options that Bayo has. I get that everyone is hype about Mewtwo but to say he can keep up with Bayo's damage output is false, since no-one can.

On the subject of Mewtwo, this character is amazing.

His current state makes me understand why they were so cautious with his mobility, even way back in Melee. With caution thrown to the wind, as it kinda is now, he's a monster.

Killing has never been Mewtwo's issue. I remember waaaay back I said that simply surviving was the biggest issue for the character, because he can never survive long enough to utilize his powerful kill options. With the mobility buffs, he IS slippery enough to survive long enough to utilize his strong KO options, and his damage output is better to boot due to having better follow-ups.

I'm talking about killing because a typical lightweight weakness is the whole "fast but weak" schtick of struggling to end the stock, a la Sheik and Pikachu. And of course it's one of the most crippling weaknesses a character can have. I know this is obvious, but what we have with Mewtwo is a "fast but weak" lightweight who lacks the "weak" thing. His speed to power ratio is comparable to Falcon's now, and overall it's probably better. Which is kind of insane.

It's the age old thing. A character with the weakness of "being light", when being light has never been enough of a weakness to hold a character back from top tier. The best glass cannons in Smash have always been top tier.

 

[NairWizard]

I'm not talking about safe on shield. I'm talking about safe in neutral.

Safe on shield is the same as safe in neutral. You are not going to throw out attacks that don't even have a chance of connecting on your opponent (by your own admission), and in any situation where you are able to hit a grounded opponent in neutral with a hitbox, you are vulnerable to hitting a shield instead.

Certainly, Pikachu's up-smash is safe if I use it on the other side of the stage and my opponent can't possibly dash in, but will that affect the process of converting neutral into advantage or disadvantage at all? No.

Neutral in any fighting game is entirely centered on the ability to block attacks and punish, and the counterplay that develops from the strength of this ability. In smash, the shield is the heart of neutral, and safety in neutral is safety on shield.

A tool that is safe on non-shield actions but bad against shield even when well spaced isn't typically regarded as a safe neutral tool. It's a counterpoke, to be used on reaction or read only.

 

[KillerJawz]

I'm talking about killing because a typical lightweight weakness is the whole "fast but weak" schtick of struggling to end the stock, a la Sheik and Pikachu. And of course it's one of the most crippling weaknesses a character can have. I know this is obvious, but what we have with Mewtwo is a "fast but weak" lightweight who lacks the "weak" thing. His speed to power ratio is comparable to Falcon's now, and overall it's probably better. Which is kind of insane.

Sheik and Pikachu also both have frame 2 jabs. Mewtwo's fastest button on the ground and the air is frame 6. His mobility is indeed incredible, but his CQC is absolutely abysmal. He obviously has strengths they don't have, but they also have things that a Mewtwo player could only dream of (like an actual grab and oos options vs smaller characters).

Mewtwo is a strong character, nobody can deny that. But is there seriously a debate here for him being as good the best of the best? Are we genuinely being serious? Don't be fools. He still has his share of weaknesses. Let time pass. If Mewtwo is dominant, then we can look further into him, but for now, are you guys seriously going to moan about him? Why not discuss how to actually BEAT him instead of crying to daddy Sakurai for nerfs. I'm currently in the process of making an anti-Mewtwo video, perhaps it'll dry some tears.

Get good people.

 

[Yikarur]

lol spain loses all my respect.
I don't understand it at all. Bayonetta isn't even dominating. I hope this attitude doesn't spread.
In an actively patched game complaining like that is stupid. Get better, learn the present format and deal with it. Time will probably change it anyway.

And Mewtwo is awesome. I've posted before that Mewtwo is high tier and immediately afterwards Abadango proves it
And Mewtwo is extremely entertaining to watch. This was like the greatest tournament ever as a viewer.
I bet any complain about Mewtwo is just trolling anyway.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Sheik and Pikachu also both have frame 2 jabs. Mewtwo's fastest button on the ground and the air is frame 6. His mobility is indeed incredible, but his CQC is absolutely abysmal. He obviously has strengths they don't have, but they also have things that a Mewtwo player could only dream of (like an actual grab and oos options vs smaller characters).

Mewtwo is a strong character, nobody can deny that. But is there seriously a debate here for him being as good the best of the best? Are we genuinely being serious? Don't be fools. He still has his share of weaknesses. Let time pass. If Mewtwo is dominant, then we can look further into him, but for now, are you guys seriously going to moan about him? Why not discuss how to actually BEAT him instead of crying to daddy Sakurai for nerfs. I'm currently in the process of making an anti-Mewtwo video, perhaps it'll dry some tears.

Get good people.

I wouldn't call his CQC abysmal, as Jab and D-tilt have good range and almost non exsistent endlag, making them pretty safe to throw out. They also confirm into ALOT of other moves, making them really dangerous to be hit with.

 

[ARISTOS]

lol brb gonna counterpick Bayo against every Spanish player I see.

In more relevant topics Mewtwo now is in a good place but it'll take time to see the full impacts the changes he received made. Abadango jump-kicked his meta into hyper drive.

I think figuring out how to get in and stay in on Mewtwo/ Figuring out ways to corner him will be crucial because his grounded escape options aren't too hot

 

[bc1910]

Sheik and Pikachu also both have frame 2 jabs. Mewtwo's fastest button on the ground and the air is frame 6. His mobility is indeed incredible, but his CQC is absolutely abysmal. He obviously has strengths they don't have, but they also have things that a Mewtwo player could only dream of (like an actual grab and oos options vs smaller characters).

Mewtwo is a strong character, nobody can deny that. But is there seriously a debate here for him being as good the best of the best? Are we genuinely being serious? Don't be fools. He still has his share of weaknesses. Let time pass. If Mewtwo is dominant, then we can look further into him, but for now, are you guys seriously going to moan about him? Why not discuss how to actually BEAT him instead of crying to daddy Sakurai for nerfs. I'm currently in the process of making an anti-Mewtwo video, perhaps it'll dry some tears.

Get good people.

First off, the tone of this post is way too aggressive to be a response for a post that was very pro-Mewtwo. There was no "moaning" whatsoever.

Mewtwo of course has his fair share of weaknesses. His CQC is not that fast, his options for covering below him in the air are pretty bad, his grabs are bad and obviously his weight is abysmal. No-one is saying he's some broken new God tier character. But his strengths are extremely valuable in the current meta.

If you don't think he can be among the top characters you're straight up in denial. You haven't really contributed anything, just grabbed an opportunity to take potshots at an anti-Mewtwo bandwagon that... doesn't even exist?

 

[FallofBrawl]

When people's feelings trump the meta's growth, it's no longer a competition.

 

[sedrf]

Who gives a crap about spain to be honest
edit: people shouldn't take what happened in a much smaller/younger seen as the main narrative.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Who gives a crap about spain to be honest

Kind of a weird post, but to answer your rude question a lot of people since it's now the current hot topic for the next week or two most likely with the ban to Bayonetta happening mere hours ago.

Definitely sure the people that live in Spain care too.

 

[sedrf]

Hey everyone, spanish top player here. It's not official yet, but I can say it's as good as official. I wanted to do a post when it got official though

So yeah, most of our community wants she gone since she's basically extremely toxic and overpowered, the latter not being so obvious to people who aren't top players. We realized that the character is too good to compete against the others and the soft ban that is working in the USA atm is not working here (top players know that she's gamebreaking and thus avoid playing her since it would kill the game), so we're going for the hard ban route.

If she's notably nerfed in the future we may allow her again, but as of now she is going to be banned from everything and treated as if she didn't exist basically. This game is a masterpiece for competitive with her gone.

We've been talking with other countries and Japan TO and top players are very pro-ban, it's highly likely that she will be banned there in a few days or weeks.

The good thing about the ban is that patchers may take drastic actions on her which she needs.

We consulted other scenes about the ban (Melee, FGC) and they pretty much agree.

I'm here to answer any questions you might have about the spanish scene if needed. We're not either a new or small scene, been here since Melee and numbering in the 400 active players.

So you know, now is a good time to come live in Spain. Hot chicks, nice beaches and Bayonetta banned

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4dhlag/the_spanish_smash_community_is_considering/
Obviously most of you don't beleive it but at the same time this sheds more light

 

[Nu~]

When people's feelings trump the meta's growth, it's no longer a competition.

I can't be surprised by all of this. We've seen the same thing happen in the customs era and with Miis. No one wanted to lab, but everyone wanted to cry.

The sheer horror of having to deal with "Kong cyclone" and "stallager" scared all the scrubs away. People like @Amazing Ampharos, @Hippieslayer, and False gave valid reasons for customs (AA even went as far as to create an hour long video on why stall villager is a sucky strategy), but they were ignored by the collective butthurt of the majority of top players.

Then the overwhelming cries of people who erroneously claimed that "helicopter kick is unfair", "Miis are too much work to implement", and the infamous "pick a real character" (courtesy of Vinnie ) drowned out the legitimate arguments for allowing Mii players their sets.

But of course you have neophobes and BANwagoners who would rather stick to what they know and ignore the possibilities.
The smash community is still highly immature.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I don't intend for this to turn into an all out Mii or customs argument. My intention is to make a point on the community as a whole.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fam I was being serious.

You take Ryu who does have the tools to counter poke/play anything thrown at him but it takes extensive knowledge of spacing, all of your options, your opponents options and in what scenarios can you convert. Sometimes you get a combo and sometimes you wont.

Bayo can counter poke/punish anyone with Witch Twist, which is fairly safe on whiff and block. Can outprioritize many attacks. Leads into her offense. Plus unlike Ryu she does have very strong neutral tools that she doesnt commit too really. When someone jumps at Bayo, runs at Bayo, rolls at Bayo, shields in Bayos face, etc....the answer is Witch Twist. And maybe the occasional grab/pivot grab.

Far less effort and with answers that are just as strong and sometimes even stronger depending on the situation.

Why would anyone who wants to actually win ever use Ryu, now that Bayo is revealing how powerful she truly is?

You are either not serious about winning or you just love Ryu THAT much.

 

[Rizen]

I can't be surprised by all of this. We've seen the same thing happen in the customs era and with Miis. No one wanted to lab, but everyone wanted to cry.

The sheer horror of having to deal with "Kong cyclone" and "stallager" scared all the scrubs away. People like @Amazing Ampharos, @Hippieslayer, and False gave valid reasons for customs (AA even went as far as to create an hour long video on why stall villager is a sucky strategy), but they were ignored by the collective butthurt of the majority of top players.

Then the overwhelming cries of people who erroneously claimed that "helicopter kick is unfair", "Miis are too much work to implement", and the infamous "pick a real character" (courtesy of Vinnie ) drowned out the legitimate arguments for allowing Mii players their sets.

But of course you have neophobes and BANwagoners who would rather stick to what they know and ignore the possibilities.
The smash community is still highly immature.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I don't intend for this to turn into an all out Mii or customs argument. My intention is to make a point on the community as a whole.

You forgot the part where pro custom people had to wander the desert for 40 years.

I don't think many smash communities will follow in Spain's footsteps and ban Bayo. Sometimes I wonder if people use bans as leverage to get characters like Bayo nerfed.

 

[Locuan]

edit: people shouldn't take what happened in a much smaller/younger seen as the main narrative.

Just because a scene is smaller and/or younger we should take their opinions with less weight than others? That is not the correct way to go about it in my view or in a scientific view truly.

Throughout history we have had a lot of concepts that may have been seen as farfetched or downright heretic by others. They then end up being considered, respected, or adopted due to rigorous observation and/or mathematical analysis. The Solar System actually revolving around the Sun instead of the Earth, atoms being the building block of matter, and the Universe actually being in an inflationary state.

The point I'm trying to make, we should observe the repercussions in the meta-game that will evolve in Spain and see its benefits and/or hindrances due to their communities decision. From there we can develop our own hypothesis or conclusions as to which decision, if any, we should take. We could also communicate with them down the line as well and gather more data.

If the data we have collected points that A is the best choice, then we go with A. If the data we have collected points that B is the best choice, then we go with B. If we reach an inconclusive state, that just means we need more data. What we need to avoid is going down the path of making decisions based on opinions/feelings and try to be as informed as possible before making them. This is due to the fact that every decision we make will affect the game and others enjoyment of it in some way or another.

 

[sedrf]

Maybe people just didn't like customs and the fact they were meant to be a project and not a competitive thing. Maybe everybody who doesn't agree with you is a scrub.

 

[NotLiquid]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4dhlag/the_spanish_smash_community_is_considering/
Obviously most of you don't beleive it but at the same time this sheds more light

If Japan end up banning Bayonetta that would be grade-A doo doo since that's her second biggest scene and would probably compound pressure to act against her on the global scene. In the unrealistic scenario that it would come to pass it'd not only stifle the players who have dedicated the time to develop her, it would cripple the progress of developments that have been made against her. She'd be a character put in limbo entirely because of "what ifs", and not even Brawl Meta Knight was banned on that notion.

 

[Nu~]

Maybe people just didn't like customs and the fact they were meant to be a project and not a competitive thing. Maybe everybody who doesn't agree with you is a scrub.

I didn't want this to be an argument but...

Wut? The reason why the custom moveset project was created was to test customs in a competitive environment. It wasn't just for giggles and laughter. Just ask the creator @Amazing Ampharos. EVO went well with them, but nobody wanted to give them further experimentation.


Now you're twisting the meaning of what I said.
My issue is with why the overwhelming majority of people disliked customs. Of course not everyone who dislikes them is a scrub, you could simply dislike them because you feel overwhelmed by the vast amount of options. But you can't deny that a large part of it was because people didn't want to lab and took things at face value.

 

[Y2Kay]

Who gives a crap about spain to be honest
edit: people shouldn't take what happened in a much smaller/younger seen as the main narrative.

just gonna let you know we have a lot of Europeans and Spanish people in this thread.

posting that was a really bad idea. C'mon man . . . . . . .

 

[HeavyLobster]

If Japan end up banning Bayonetta that would be grade-A doo doo since that's her second biggest scene and would probably compound pressure to act against her on the global scene. In the unrealistic scenario that it would come to pass it'd not only stifle the players who have dedicated the time to develop her, it would cripple the progress of developments that have been made against her. She'd be a character put in limbo entirely because of "what ifs", and not even Brawl Meta Knight was banned on that notion.

Politically speaking, it would also force Sakurai's hand with respect to patches. Spain is one thing, but he's not going to ignore the Japanese scene, and having a character banned would expedite the patching process, as more nerfs were already likely, but they'd have to come faster and would likely be more severe. I'd hate for such a ban to get pushed for such reasons, as it sets a terrible precedent and reflects poorly on the community.

 

[Asdioh]

Here's a question for you all: Do Smash players press buttons too much? Or, to phrase it in a more "Smash" way, do too many players spam moves without thinking (myself included)?

In fighting game commentary, you'll often hear that a player caught another player "pressing buttons." That means Player A decided to throw out a move without any sort of plan in mind, or at a moment where they would've been better off not doing anything, and then Player B immediately reacted to it and punished them for it, sometimes with big damage following.

Yesterday I was watching NinjaLink review Pound 2016, and he mentioned that he thinks too many Smash 4 players go on autopilot, and even showed examples from top players at Pound 2016, such as Tweek tossing out certain moves when there's no way they would have hit in those situations.

I decided to look at the Banning Bayonetta thread today, and Ghidorah14 talks about how Bayo is the ultimate punish for players who press too many buttons: http://smashboards.com/threads/banning-bayonetta-in-tournaments.433725/page-2#post-21031285

The idea of whether or not Bayo should be banned aside (that's what the above thread is for!), is it the case that Smash 4 players in general have been too lax with knowing when to use AND NOT USE their attacks, and that Bayonetta's success in making players pay for pressing buttons is simply the most visible and immediate evidence of this?

Do we need to, overall as a competitive community, learn not to "press buttons," and are we Smash players more vulnerable to this than other FGCs?

Emblem Lord already said it, but Smash doesn't punish you too hard for pressing buttons... if you're using a good character. I noticed it a lot in the top games of Pound as well, with Marss ZSS vs Ally Mario being one that sticks out in my mind the most. I saw a lot, a LOT of attacks get perfect shielded, into counterattacks that also get perfect shielded... and so on. ZSS and Mario both have top tier frame data, so it's no surprise. This has been a consistent theme with most top tier characters in most smash games: they can throw out attacks with relative safely, and "spamming" attacks doesn't get you punished much. This is why characters like Kirby don't traditionally do well, most players want to spam attacks, and most of his just aren't safe on shield/whiff. This is why most people gave up on (pre-buff) Marth, they couldn't do their coveted short hop double fairs and stuff like that. They had to actually think before throwing out hitboxes, and they didn't want to do that. Why would you, when you could just pick Sheik, Mario, Zero Suit, and throw out practically any aerial or projectile with relative safely? Or Diddy Kong, where you can space with SH Fair, which has a disjoint at the end and autocancels even if you fastfall immediately? Kirby has a Bair with similar frame data as Diddy's Fair, but it doesn't have a disjoint, and he has to wait a moment before fastfalling, or he'll get landing lag. That makes it less safe to spam, which makes players less happy.

So yes, I think they press buttons too much, and this goes back to that "do nothing" mindset that we talked about a month or two ago in this thread.

 

[Pancracio17]

Do the players in spain not travel to other countries that often? I imagine it would be hell going to evo and then fighting the best character + MU inexperience. Anyway i disagree on the ban (not baised at all ) but lets wait and see to how the scene in spain fares.

Hope they dont nerf her too hard D:

 

[FullMoon]

I remember when someone said prior to Bayonetta and Corrin's release that the former might not even be high tier because of her bad start-up.

Now we have Spain banning her because she's too good and others supporting the decision.

I dunno I just find it funny to look back on it.

 

[Greward]

just gonna let you know we have a lot of Europeans and Spanish people in this thread.

posting that was a really bad idea. C'mon man . . . . . . .

Don't worry, I've got enough **** today that a bit more isn't going to hurt lol.

Our decision aside, I don't think you should be debating about the bayonetta ban or not here, it's not the post for it.