Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Really, the only reason the bans aren't being considered legit is because "we only have a few months with the character".

But really, if Bayo really is proving to be a big problem in the meta in Spain, cutting her off is entirely warranted. Just wish people at r/smashbros would see that angle instead of crying for the millionth time "b--but we didn't ban *x character* when they were new!".

On-topic, though, I still cannot see Charizard anywhere below mid now. Not at all; the buffs have completely changed him and I feel like he's way better than anybody in Bottom, especially in representation.

 

[TheGlove]

Well if anyone wants to take a break from bayonetta there is some Texas smash going on.

Winners quarters right now The Wall vs Karna

I Believe Trela is in attendance

https://www.twitch.tv/uhsmash

Tournament is called Rip city 10

Results that i have pieced together

1. Trela
2. GrimTurtle
3. Karna
4. The Wall
5. Jerm
5. I think its a toon link player unless that was also jerm
7. S2h Maybe he was there but IDk
7. ????

Will fix later

 

[DungeonMaster]

Bayo can counter poke/punish anyone with Witch Twist, which is fairly safe on whiff and block. Can outprioritize many attacks. Leads into her offense. Plus unlike Ryu she does have very strong neutral tools that she doesnt commit too really. When someone jumps at Bayo, runs at Bayo, rolls at Bayo, shields in Bayos face, etc....the answer is Witch Twist. And maybe the occasional grab/pivot grab.
You are either not serious about winning or you just love Ryu THAT much.

I don't disagree with that sentiment, I would hazard a guess that the major difference in design is Ryu's combos are very difficult to SDI / DI out of whereas Bayo's are considerably easier.
You're simply not going to escape d-air standing roundhouse.

I still maintain that the current "top tiers" are dominated by light fast-fallers and Bayo thrives against these characters specifically.
Floaty characters have a much easier time adjusting their DI, their combo windows are small to non-existent. You know exactly where the fast-faller is going to be next i.e. mostly "down".
The balance the design team may be striking is simply to say: Here's a counterpick to those light fast-fallers, mix it up or lose.
Whether that's "good" or "bad", I'm not sure. They have no problem with Rosa vs. PK kids, they literally designed it as a hard counter.
I'm personally a bit tired of seeing the sheiks, fox, ZSS and metaknights and I would quite like to see pro players pick up the floaties (say Mewtwo, Samus, a return of Luigi, or even *gasp* Jiggs).

I personally haven't been killed off the top by Bayo in many weeks as Samus for what it's worth.
The reality I see is if the character does not get nerfed in some way or another, and the Bayo meta progresses towards perfection, the pros are going to need the floaties. It may be a good thing.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Really, the only reason the bans aren't being considered legit is because "we only have a few months with the character".

But really, if Bayo really is proving to be a big problem in the meta in Spain, cutting her off is entirely warranted. Just wish people at r/smashbros would see that angle instead of crying for the millionth time "b--but we didn't ban *x character* when they were new!".

On-topic, though, I still cannot see Charizard anywhere below mid now. Not at all; the buffs have completely changed him and I feel like he's way better than anybody in Bottom, especially in representation.

i completely agree with all of this, especially the Charizard thing
He has a great grab game with a huge grab range, great set of throws including the best upthrow killthrow in the game (except for on FD). He also has good edgeguarding tools, refuses to die, he's got decent mobility, and he kills extremely early

 

[Scrubtorights]

...Can tourney at least legalize miis if they the ban Bayo? I'm somewhat surprised mii players didn't try something like that, at least yet lol. Well to be serious here I want to ask a what if or the near future question. What will happen to the "meta" if Bayo or Cloud didn't exist? And just to be fair ,what are the benefits and problems that arise if it would happen?

 

[Pancracio17]

Those charizard buffs were great, i love that new back air it kills dumb early.

 

[Greward]

...Can tourney at least legalize miis if they the ban Bayo? I'm somewhat surprised mii players didn't try something like that, at least yet lol. Well to be serious here I want to ask a what if or the near future question. What will happen to the "meta" if Bayo or Cloud didn't exist? And just to be fair ,what are the benefits and problems that arise if it would happen?

Miis are allowed in Spain as Guest with any moveset.
Allowing all sizes is too difficult since Miis are created outside of the game.

Probably we would have the same meta than in 1.1.3, but with more different characters since top tiers were nerfed and some low tier buffed. I'm expecting all chars with Sheik problems to get better.
Mario and villager would be very menacing characters since most of their counterpicks bar Rosalina would be gone. Rosa would be #1 for sure (with MK nerfed and Cloud not existing, she wouldn't have any strong losing matchups).

 

[Blobface]

Under these criteria, that's 46 (fox is there twice lol) characters with the tools to directly contest airdodges offstage. Even then, of the characters in the "None" category, only Bowser, Fox, Greninja, and Ike jump out as having a limited offstage game, and even they have some good tools.

Earlier, a few people mentioned the difficulty of contesting Up-B's, but I'd like to contest that statement (pun intended).

Many Up-B's have a blindspot, and while it is true that that is character specific, knowing where to attack a recovery move from can make being forced to Up-B a death sentence for the recovering character. As an example, while Captain Falcon's and Ganondorf's recoveries may seem similar, you actually need to edgeguard them very differently. Falcon's Up-B has a significant horizontal disjoint, but does not protect his upraised arm or head. This means Captain Falcon should be edgeguarded from above. Ganondorf's recovery however, has a large disjoint directly above his head, but no hitbox below that. This means Ganondorf should be edgeguarded from below.

Also, there seems to be a very pervasive idea that edgeguarding someone should be a one-way interaction. Either the edgeguarder gets it for free with no chance for the recoveree (lol) to boost their chances of survival, or the recoveree gets back easy with overpowered recovery options while the edgeguarder blithely stares at them grabbing the edge and stage control.

Edgeguarding though is definitely a two-way interaction. The players can both respond and adapt to what the other player is doing, and that's what makes offstage in Smash 4 so great IMO.

 

[Trifroze]

Regarding Mewtwo's mobility, it's pretty far from amazing honestly. He doesn't fall fast, his second jump is awkward (sometimes a good thing, more often a bad thing) and his aerial weaving ability is straight up bad. Considering the last point, a time will come when Mewtwo won't be able to airdodge for free 90+% of the time and that'll really affect his ability to land and get off the ledge which I could see being pretty tough for him.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Regarding Mewtwo's mobility, it's pretty far from amazing honestly. He doesn't fall fast, his second jump is awkward (sometimes a good thing, more often a bad thing) and his aerial weaving ability is straight up bad. Considering the last point, a time will come when Mewtwo won't be able to airdodge for free 90+% of the time and that'll really affect his ability to land and get off the ledge which I could see being pretty tough for him.

His initial dash animation is also horrible

 

[Nobie]

If Witch Time is great for punishing small mistakes...but Witch Time itself can be punished if you don't throw anything out... hmm.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If Witch Time is great for punishing small mistakes...but Witch Time itself can be punished if you don't throw anything out... hmm.

The issue with Witch Time is that it punishes a 2 frame jab just as much as it would punish a fully charged fsmash from Ike. you also can't effectively punish with anything BUT a grab afterwards because of Bat Within. The move almost ruins the neutral of certain characters

 

[SaltyKracka]

If Witch Time is great for punishing small mistakes...but Witch Time itself can be punished if you don't throw anything out... hmm.

It's got about 20 frames of actual vulnerability.

As counters go, that's...actually the least vulnerable counter in the game. (Alright, Shulk's first Vision has a comparable window of vulnerability, but that actually increases as it stales)

 

[Smog Frog]

the thing is, unlike or some other character with amazing top speed data but ****ty in all other aspects, has ways to manipulate his momentum(confusion, shadow ball recoil, shadow ball b-reverse charge, teleport, etc.). it's sorta like not having good raw aerial mobility but he has monkey flip to circumvent that.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's got about 20 frames of actual vulnerability.

As counters go, that's...actually the least vulnerable counter in the game. (Alright, Shulk's first Vision has a comparable window of vulnerability, but that actually increases as it stales)

Witch Time stales too, but in a different way. Miss it once and it goes from huge combo starter to a small one. Miss it again and it basically becomes useless for a while. Even if you can't directly punish it, missing it is of serious consequence to Bayonetta.

 

[FallofBrawl]

the thing is, unlike or some other character with amazing top speed data but ****ty in all other aspects, has ways to manipulate his momentum(confusion, shadow ball recoil, shadow ball b-reverse charge, teleport, etc.). it's sorta like not having good raw aerial mobility but he has monkey flip to circumvent that.

Pretty sure Roy's b-reversed neutral b weaves him quite well. Maybe I'm missing some picky ones but he's not entirely helpless.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Witch Time stales too, but in a different way. Miss it once and it goes from huge combo starter to a small one. Miss it again and it basically becomes useless for a while. Even if you can't directly punish it, missing it is of serious consequence to Bayonetta.

Yeah...no.

A decreased reward is not a punishment, it's a smaller reward.

 

[Nu~]

Pretty sure Roy's b-reversed neutral b weaves him quite well. Maybe I'm missing some picky ones but he's not entirely helpless.

Wavebounced Double-edge dance as well

 

[PK Gaming]

I remember when someone said prior to Bayonetta and Corrin's release that the former might not even be high tier because of her bad start-up.

Now we have Spain banning her because she's too good and others supporting the decision.

I dunno I just find it funny to look back on it.

It should go without saying, but hindsight is 20/20

 

[TurboLink]

@Fatmanonice So, what do you think of the Link/Villager MU? Who do you think wins?

 

[Radical Larry]

@Fatmanonice So, what do you think of the Link/Villager MU? Who do you think wins?

Slight advantage to Villager since he can keep Link out, but not entirely. Link can get through some projectiles with Bombs, but Villager's F-Air and B-Air are hella annoying to go up against. Up close in CQC, Link might get an upper hand, but in ranged battles, Link better get the hell back to the other side of the stage.

I've had limited experience with Villager, and it contributes to wins or losses depending on how much I'll find out in matches. If you can find out Villager's tactics, then you can potentially beat him.

6:4 for Villager if you don't know/don't adjust.
5:5 or 6:4 Link if you do know how to fight and out-range him, and make sure to read Pocket, that'll help.

 

[TurboLink]

Slight advantage to Villager since he can keep Link out, but not entirely. Link can get through some projectiles with Bombs, but Villager's F-Air and B-Air are hella annoying to go up against. Up close in CQC, Link might get an upper hand, but in ranged battles, Link better get the hell back to the other side of the stage.

I've had limited experience with Villager, and it contributes to wins or losses depending on how much I'll find out in matches. If you can find out Villager's tactics, then you can potentially beat him.

6:4 for Villager if you don't know/don't adjust.
5:5 or 6:4 Link if you do know how to fight and out-range him, and make sure to read Pocket, that'll help.

You don't think Link's Hylian Shield would help a bit against Villager's F-Air and B-Air?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

You don't think Link's Hylian Shield would help a bit against Villager's F-Air and B-Air?

I believe those moves just go right through it, which is kinda bs tbh

 

[TurboLink]

I believe those moves just go right through it, which is kinda bs tbh

It doesn't. I just checked.

 

[sedrf]

Gonzalo BarriosVerified account‏@TSMZeRo
Despite how obviously good Bayonetta is, I refuse to play as her . I want to figure out how to beat her, like a challenge type of mindset.
Tips vs Bayonetta (1/?) 1) She has a bad grab, you can shield a lot against her. 2) Block her landings, don't contest. That's because of WT.
Bayonetta Tips: (2/?) 3) Attempt to edgeguard her by intercepting her side B. 4) Multiple hit moves beat Bat Within. 5) Always play patient
Bayonetta Tips: (3/?) 6) You can pivot grab her Side B. Use this for damage or kills. 7) Always measure your moves, assume WT is coming.
Bayonetta Tips: (4/?) 8) If she hits you, Aim to DI DOWN AND AWAY from her. Attempt to Smash DI UP B as well, just try.
Bayonetta Tips: (5/?) 9) Main combo starters: Up B, Down Tilt, Side B, F-Air, Up Airr.
Bayonetta Tips: (6/?) 10) When she wants to KO you, she's either gonna WT a move or combo, F-Throw, back air, or Side/UpB to combo. Avoid.
Hope the advice helps. It's better than nothing.

Great of zero to provide some information amidst the drama

 

[Trifroze]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2016040624056494

Removing rage with some knockback adjustments would be such a great thing to this game. I was an advocate for rage in the beginning (for the sake of heavies), but it's not really needed anymore and has proven to be more stupid than anything else.

 

[Jehtt]

I always thought it would be nice if the rage effect just didn't apply to certain moves (or at least all hits before the final hit of a multihit). Would still allow for heavies and such to benefit from it while removing stuff like that.

 

[C0rvus]

Needs more autolink angles. I still kinda like rage, but that kind of stuff is undeniably stupid.

 

[BunbUn129]

I never liked how Shuttle Loop 1 becomes a killing machine with rage (120 BKB on the sweetspot).

Rage is supposed to help heavies, but pre-patch was hilariously among the biggest benefactors. KOing sub-10% was the ****.

 

[Nobie]

Here's a deal: You take away Rage, you give Mewtwo back its old Melee Up throw (kills Mario at 101% on Final Destination with no DI).

Rage can feel dumb, and Mewtwo's hurt by rage arguably more than Mewtwo's helped by it (being so light), but I think all it would take is a few small tweaks to remove some of the weirder stuff.

 

[SaltyKracka]

If you really wanted to get rid of rage, you'd have to give the heavier characters an awful lot of buffs.

 

[Luco]

Corrin's side-b barely extends her hurtbox. Her left arm becomes a bit longer but most of the spear arm is disjoint (I believe it's considered an article?). Also how does Ness punish side-b if the Corrin uses a back kick?

He takes space, gives Corrin a lot less room to work with and goes from there. You know, that neutral concept that no-one ever actually uses in practice because we're bad and we should feel bad for being bad.

That being said Berserker gave me a few interesting points to consider on the MU that I hadn't thought about before and I'll probably be playing it more before I come to other conclusions. I just wanted to emphasise that Ness' weaknesses offstage are exaggerated in a majority of MUs and his weaknesses against Corrin come from the neutral and not respecting Corrin's 'heatmap' or burst range. PK Gaming's point about ESAM's Corrin being rusty is fair.

 

[LRodC]

Sheik and Pikachu also both have frame 2 jabs. Mewtwo's fastest button on the ground and the air is frame 6. His mobility is indeed incredible, but his CQC is absolutely abysmal. He obviously has strengths they don't have, but they also have things that a Mewtwo player could only dream of (like an actual grab and oos options vs smaller characters).

Mewtwo is a strong character, nobody can deny that. But is there seriously a debate here for him being as good the best of the best? Are we genuinely being serious? Don't be fools. He still has his share of weaknesses. Let time pass. If Mewtwo is dominant, then we can look further into him, but for now, are you guys seriously going to moan about him? Why not discuss how to actually BEAT him instead of crying to daddy Sakurai for nerfs. I'm currently in the process of making an anti-Mewtwo video, perhaps it'll dry some tears.

Get good people.

The community went from complaining about Mewtwo being bad (for all the wrong reasons, btw) to complaining about Mewtwo being too good.

This isn't real life, is it?

From as much crap I heard from people all pre-patch about Mewtwo being too tall and too light to be viable, deal with it.

 

[PK Gaming]

Rage can get pretty obnoxious at times, but I'm so used to it at this point I can't even imagine playing/watching Smash 4 without it. I generally have a soft spot for comeback mechanics, even if Smash 4's implementation of it is incredibly flawed.

 

[Big O]

Honestly, rage is fine. Character specific values would be ideal if you had to change it, but getting rid of like 99% of the rage "jank" is probably pretty simple. Disable rage on moves that have autolink angles, all moves that use WBKB, and Luma. All the moves designed to facilitate multi-hits become consistent and the abuse cases disappear at the same time.

 

[Browny]

ITT: People who think that Spain is the first country to Ban Bayonetta.

Here's some news for you; USA has soft-banned Bayonetta since she came out. Just about every top player agrees she is indisputable #1, yet they refuse to switch to her because they dont want the game to devolve into bayo counterpick wars and dittos in majors.

When Diddy was winning everything when the game came out, a number of top players refused to touch diddy because of how 'toxic' he was. They didnt want to be part of the problem and wanted respect, so they did their part to keep diddy down. Despite this, many top players switched to diddy because of that easy money.

With Bayonetta its the same deal however more top players are refusing to play her than what was the case with diddy. You would think, all of these players like zero, anti, ally etc they want those 1st places, they all admit Bayo is broken and #1, so why dont they play her? Because they dont want to be a sell-out and combined, the top players keep the metagame 'healthy' by all soft-banning her.

When everyone agrees a character is #1, yet they refuse to play her because of the stigma attached of maining a character so far and away above the rest of the cast, that is called a soft-ban. Spain is merely following USAs lead.

Tier lists should really be based off MUs but whatever.

No because matchups based on theory are nothing more than 'I believe my character wins this matchup because they are a better character'. Countless people refuse to accept that high/top tiers can have losing matchups to random mid and low tiers because of that fact alone. Even when all the top level evidence proves that a matchup might favour the lower tier character, high tier mainers rarely care. Its a self-perpetuating loop of believing a character is better because it has more winning matchups, therefore wins more matchups because its a better character.

 

[SaltyKracka]

The community went from complaining about Mewtwo being bad (for all the wrong reasons, btw) to complaining about Mewtwo being too good.

This isn't real life, is it?

From as much crap I heard from people all pre-patch about Mewtwo being too tall and too light to be viable, deal with it.

I suspect it's mostly those of us who are jealous that our characters didn't get sweet vital mobility injected straight into their veins. Twice. In a row.

No, I'm not the last bit envious whatsoever, why do you ask?

 

[Megamang]

To be fair, he did get heavier.


But yea, the things that make him amazing now were almost all there before. When you first pick him up, his large hurtbox makes you think you're getting janked by bad design/lack of disjoint, but careful inspection and play and you realize he has an amazing disjoint and, if things are going well, he can destroy the opponent very efficiently.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

No because matchups based on theory are nothing more than 'I believe my character wins this matchup because they are a better character'. Countless people refuse to accept that high/top tiers can have losing matchups to random mid and low tiers because of that fact alone. Even when all the top level evidence proves that a matchup might favour the lower tier character, high tier mainers rarely care. Its a self-perpetuating loop of believing a character is better because it has more winning matchups, therefore wins more matchups because its a better character.

That's not how it works lmao

MUs are decided by the number of options a character has against another character in the neutral, advantage, and disadvantage. Not by how good a character is. How good a character is is defined by the how well they do vs other characters

 

[Ghidorah14]

If you really wanted to get rid of rage, you'd have to give the heavier characters an awful lot of buffs.

Losing rage would destroy the viability of heavies. It's why I love using bowser so much; he can live forever and becomes really scary with rage.