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Bombs might be better, they just weren't mentioned. I wasn't really covering every projectile. You do commit a lot to the bomb pluck though.
I saw a match where Viceroy's Rosa beat Pink Fresh's Bayo.i think we have to examinesuspect mus. she has them and she might lose some of them. lets take a look:
these are the obvious "not clearly
seems to have good tools to beat bayo with reach, burst movement grabs and luma. has pretty fast projectiles including bomb pulls with a FAF of 40 frames (+8 to throw and 220 until they explode). Compare them to Pit's arrows with a FAF of 59 or Mario's fireballs with a FAF of 53, etc and they're not bad.
Fair point, but perfect shielding projectiles isnt too hard if you get the hang of it, the only reason shiek's are so hard to react to is that they are barely visible and come out faster than water shurikens. And speed isn't everything, a slow projectile can control more space in a given time (again greninja's projectile is pretty versatile in that it can do that with the full charge). The size of a projectile is also very helpful,
aura sphere wouldn't be half as broken if it wasn't a freaking spirit bomb, it even occasionally catches evasive maneuvers, It covers almost all ledge getup options (except letting go and jumping away but you lose ledge vulnerability) AND can hit people hanging on the ledge (2 framing isn't hard either with it's size and speed). Combine the two, and the only option most opponents has when hanging on the ledge is to get hit. And that's only half of what it can do, it's pretty godly in neutral for shield pressure, momentum shifts, conditioning, kill confirms, killing really damn early.....Dragon fang shot moves pretty quick when fully charged, but that's not the main reason it's good for, It's a brilliant tool in alot of other ways, as My Smash Corner pointed out it covers a ton of getup options if 's fsmash wasn't already good enough so it could be worth mixing up between the two. The big thing about his projectile though is the bite itself (no pun intended), unless the amount of lag on his projectile alone would have been less by a considerable amount than the endlag of the bite, the bite is a major plus. It's got a massive hitbox and so even though the projectile has really low priority the bite doesn't. Also you can definitely charge it in the air, shot, bite, everything. Who told you, you can't?, speaking of which using it in the air is pretty amazing too, the bite beats out ALOT of moves and has a large enough hitbox to catch people trying to airdodge the projectile. It works much better as a mixup tool than a pure camping tool like s. There are a bunch of other things I could talk about this move too such as it working really well with a b-reverse and being able to charge the bite and shot separately. The bite also does a ton of shield damage, combined with a projectile it will break shield and if not, they have low enough shield health for the next tipper side b to break shield. And if we are talking about a projectile in relation to their characters I'd say corrin's definitely rewards him more than other characters, He is one of only two sword character with a usable projectile that itself should say something but it really helps corrin because well....his mobility is lacking outside of side b and a being able to force some characters to approach him is really helpful. Did I mention that not only can the move lead into combos but some of corrin's move can combo into it too? Specifically fair, uair and nair can true combo into the uncharged shot and since the uncharged shot can true combo into a full charged bite it's a seriously devastating option I don't see used enough. Especially near the ledge this will kill ridiculously early, I'm talking sub 60%. In no way is the move underwhelming in kill power or reward.'s projectile, his is definitely up there too, just sayin that there are alot more things to consider~ would rather have a strong zoning tool like needles to force people to approach him rather than a strong kill projectile like
Bro, if you use the projectile really up close and hold down B on the physical hit, you will hit characters. I've tested it before on almost every character with Corrin, and it works up close. You likely won't hit far, but up close it does work on the characters, even at 0% damage, where there shouldn't be much stun.
Oh, you mean shot to bite? Your wording was ambiguous. I thought you meant the repeated shot combo on fast fallers.
Oh, well, I should have not been ambiguous, I guess.
This is exactly what I have been saying for a long time now. Bayonetta should be so slow on start-up that all of her moves become reactable. They should be difficult to land, they would need a read or catch an opponent off-guard, but when they land they bring great damage or even death at not ridicolous percentage. If Witch Twist had 12 frame start-up, for example, it would be completely fine.
I think we're on the same page. I didn't mean to throw a bomb right after pulling but rather 40 frames to pull one isn't much commitment if Link's not stupid about it. Anytime after the pull a frame 8 projectile with little end lag is fantastic.
He made an error there, apparently. He probably meant that Samus can't charge her Charge Shot in the air, but Corrin can, or something along the lines and meaning of that.
They could just shorten her projectile range, give her more landing lag on aerials, no AC, more ending lag on some attacks, much more startup on combo attacks and make her Up B much shorter in vertical range.
Oooh lol I thought you meant you can't charge the dragon fang shot in the air.
Thanks Larry!
Calm down. You're actually spreading misinformation yourself since Dragon Fang Shot isn't character specific. (Paralysis time is universal) and Larry is right in this case; Dragon Fang Shot absolutely combos into itself at point blank range.
Go back and actually read my reply.
PK Gaming
No worries (and I know we all miss stuff) just wanted to clarify. Shot to bite is definitely a great strength of the move.Oh. Sorry about that, I didn't see your response.
Pretty much this. Thanks to Metaknight's nerfs, Bayo is now the only character in the game who can fairly easily 0 to death most of the cast with the right combos and it's definitely the elephant in the room. Notice how a lot of the top level players haven't really jumped on the Bayo bandwagon yet. Most of the switches have been from mid level players who formally mained mid or even low tier characters. Saj, Ninjalink, Pink Fresh, Aerolink, etc all fit this description and their rankings have absolutely exploded. It doesn't take a genius to understand what would happen if Nairo, Dabuz, Ally, Zero, etc suddenly dropped their characters and switched to Bayo. Mid level players with Bayo is already rough but top level players with Bayo would be incredibly polarizing and this is so evident that, out of a sense unspoken respect, you don't have these players switching to her. If nerfs come in the future (and it's almost inevitable at this point) you may see some switches but right now it's too obvious that Bayo would ruin top level play.
TGC7 is this weekend on the 9th. There will be a stream as well this time! ESAM, MVD, pugwest, S2H, maybe other socal? Couple other big names.Actually most of these are reasonable nerf ideas, it's just the whole package would probably kill her lol. You're doing good Larry, you're doing good.
On a different subject, what are the next set of big tournaments coming around? As a bit of self-region-promotion (teehee), the Aussie major BAM 8 is coming up in mid May. Do we have anything big before then?
Not that talk about banning Bayonetta should be happening in here in the first place but this argument is awful and you should feel bad for bringing it up.
How so? I followed competitive Brawl in its entirety when everyone and their mail carrier had a pocket Metaknight and, in the later years of Brawl, it was largely the same situation. I'm not even arguing for a ban because, as I pointed out, the community's perspective is that she could easily polarize the game if the best players are using her. The best players tend to use the best characters, that's no surprise, so if they're not using them, there's likely something in their head that's talking them out of that switch. In a way, the community is currently regulating itself so that nothing official is put into place or it starts something that would be difficult to reverse.Not that talk about banning Bayonetta should be happening in here in the first place but this argument is awful and you should feel bad for bringing it up.
Dabuz was also playing Bayonetta and was later eliminated by a DK. An interesting tournament for sure.
Thank you for this.Not that talk about banning Bayonetta should be happening in here in the first place but this argument is awful and you should feel bad for bringing it up.
The only real changes that would be reasonable would be at least 1 to 2 frames (depending on attacks) on tilts and aerials for startup, 4 to 5 frames more on Smash attacks, a frame 9 Witch Twist with higher KBG, 80% range of what was Bullet Climax and to compensate, give her additional power to her attacks and yet still let her combo into certain combos. That's all I can think of that won't really kill her. Endlag and landing lag can be the same, but startup could change to give her balance at least.Actually most of these are reasonable nerf ideas, it's just the whole package would probably kill her lol. You're doing good Larry, you're doing good.
On a different subject, what are the next set of big tournaments coming around? As a bit of self-region-promotion (teehee), the Aussie major BAM 8 is coming up in mid May. Do we have anything big before then?
It doesn't matter what "logical" reason you can cook up for why they shouldn't be balancing for FFAs, they're going to do it anyway.
Pit's arrows have a FAF of 59 on the ground, but he shouldn't really be using them on the ground. They have a FAF of 43 in the air, and as long as you don't interrupt it before landing you'll land with zero landing lag.
That sounds like bad game design.
It's the design the rest of the counters are based around, so...
Literally the worst counter-argument typical of this forum, that should be worthy of infractions.Not that talk about banning Bayonetta should be happening in here in the first place but this argument is awful and you should feel bad for bringing it up.
Sheik only has two attacks that do at least 11%, those attacks are tippered up smash and the first hitbox on Vanish.
We are - I think bombs are amazing. Again, probably a top 5 projectile. The bomb pull is still a consideration but obviously that's what's keeping the move balanced.
It sounds like a possible fix would be to have the duration be based on knockback dealt instead of damage dealt, since that scales a lot better across the cast. It would serve to balance it in a way the rest of the counters in the game are; no one dies when they jab Corrin's counter because damage and knockback dealt by the counter are directly dependent on the attack being countered and scale accordingly. Witch Time doesn't work by those rules at this time, or if it does, not adequately enough.
To be honest, I'm feeling like Tink's Bomb could be the best projectile in the game (sharing that spot with Banana and maybe Needlestorm). It's safe to pull out if used right, you can pretty much take advantage of all specials while using it, you can Z-drop it, it combos into almost all of Tink's aerials, multiple can be onstage at once, it stuffs many approaches, it has good priority, etc. To be honest, it's potentially the most versatile of all projectiles and it's so freaking dangerous. Any good Tink that can take even decent advantage of bombs is quite scary, considering that if you get hit by even one, that could be the stock at sub-100%.
Robin's Thunder should be on that list. Elthunder is a great pressure tool, and it does a ton of damage on hit. Thunder and Thoron are niche, but they have their uses, and i'm just going to quote Raziek on why Arcthunder is amazing.
Using Thunder also gives Robin access to another high damage damage projectile that can kill and do a ton of shield stun. Plus it's chargeable in the air as well.
If we're considering projectiles strictly in the context of a character's toolkit, then Mega Man probably would be the best. He wouldn't function without lemons.
I mean, you could say this about literally every other counterattack move in the game. With one or two exceptions, they all work by multiplying the incoming damage by some number, then dealing that damage back. (With a minimum damage so that even countering something pathetic like Luigi's sourspot up special does something. The pseudocode would be something like "IF damage * multiplier > threshold THEN return damage * multiplier ELSE return min_damage".) Countering anything of Sheik's will do less than countering anything of Ganondorf's, therefore Ganondorf is more susceptible to counterattack moves in general. Changing Witch Time to scale the slow duration based on incoming damage won't deviate from this.
