Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[S_B]

Real talk, the big thing I'm hearing aside from better invincibility on attacks/rolls is stage control. None of the super heavyweights in Smash 4 have a long-distance projectile aside from Dedede and his is... well... Gordos. They'd be great for that if they weren't deflected by a light breeze (they do restrict the opponent in a disadvantaged state however).

TBH, I don't think a HW needs to control the entire stage, they just need to better be able to control the space AROUND them.

The aforementioned idea of hitbox duration extensions (or HDE, because it saves time) actually came from watching a DK fight a Sonic, and how Sonic would bait the DK into attempting to anticipate his approach (via spindash). The key issue is that the DK player would essentially need Jedi-like reflexes to actually anticipate the Sonic's approach.

And that's the crux of the entire issue: a HW player must constantly guess as to what the fast player is about to do, and guessing wrong (aka getting baited) results in a punish that usually leads into a whole string of attacks.

The goal of HDE would be to at least make the fast player have to guess as well (albeit to a lesser extent). I don't think HDE should be able to extend a hitbox by 20-30 frames or anything so crazy, which will also help in not screwing with the game for casuals. Just effectively having two different versions of each tilt so both players need to do a bit of guessing.

The alternative is to do things like give HWs the ability to cancel more attacks with shield earlier, but I think we then get into OP territory for sure...

 

[bc1910]

So something regarding tier lists and the results - theory relationship

so which characters have results worse than what their theory implies and which characters have results better than what their theory implies?

Generally speaking we've got a nice balance of results and theory in tier lists now. There probably aren't any characters who perform significantly worse or better than you'd think.

Mario's results are probably a bit better than his theory since you'd think his comparative lack of range and mobility would hurt him against the best characters, and in theory he can't kill. But in practice his great frame data and workable mobility lets him do everything he wants to, and Usmash is kind of a catch-all KO option.

Peach's results are worse than her theory I guess. She's technical and has a fantastic neutral in theory due to Float Cancelling essentially giving her a wavedash, but in practice she doesn't perform amazingly well. Her lack of raw mobility probably has something to do with it.

 

[kaz99]

So something regarding tier lists and the results - theory relationship

so which characters have results worse than what their theory implies and which characters have results better than what their theory implies?

For characters that have better results than what their theory implies, Duck Hunt seems to be a good example. I think Dandy Penguin got like 5th at Glitch using the character. I also remember Duck Hunt getting results in Japan, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.

 

[S_B]

Generally speaking we've got a nice balance of results and theory in tier lists now. There probably aren't any characters who perform significantly worse or better than you'd think.

Yeah, I'd say Yoshi and Peach are the two top offenders in this category (not that it's their fault or anything).

They add up so damn well on paper, just not as much in practice.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Well, here's a thought. I'm not well versed in traditional fighters but know that they tend to have characters somewhat analogous to Smash's heavyweights (Potemkin, Tager, Zangief). While the actual gameplay between traditional fighters and Smash differs concepts and basics do not.

With that in mind, which "heavyweights" from other fighting games have been considered good, and why? Could those same principles be adjusted for Smash's heavyweights?

Well Ryu is considered a heavyweight and he goes even with or beats the entire top tier except for Rosa (no clue why some people don't consider him top 5 material). There's also DK who does well against post patch Sheik and Pika, I think Larry Lurr said something about him beating Sheik too

Yeah, I'd say Yoshi and Peach are the two top offenders in this category (not that it's their fault or anything).

They add up so damn well on paper, just not as much in practice.

I would also say Ryu and Pikachu, mostly because they only have like 3 notable players each though. Ryu in particular had his second best player drop him and his best player go on hiatus until like 2 weeks ago

 

[Luco]

Oh, Lucas' PK Fire is a great projectile btw. Has a hurtbox, has two hits that are very likely to break open any attack, wavebounces... It's like a staple of his gameplan.

Dunno if it counts but it's definitely a fantastic projectile because of its safety and properties.

 

[bc1910]

Oh, Lucas' PK Fire is a great projectile btw. Has a hurtbox, has two hits that are very likely to break open any attack, wavebounces... It's like a staple of his gameplan.

Dunno if it counts but it's definitely a fantastic projectile because of its safety and properties.

The way it auto-spaces due to Lucas' recoil is really good as well.

Ness' PK Thunder isn't particularly versatile, but it does deserve a mention as one of the best edgeguarding projectiles.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Okay thanks for the response guys.

I actually have another question regarding tier lists. So somebody mentioned a while ago how the smash tier list should be focused more around theory rather than results because smash is the only community that takes results so heavily into consideration when constructing a tier list, while other communities focus more on theory when constructing theirs. I don't follow the competitive scene of other communities to verify if this true or not, but I'm gonna give the original poster the benefit of the doubt and believe what they said.

Anyways, so a common "pro-results" argument was that theory is not only vulnerable to bias, but also that theory doesn't mean much if there is no evidence to support the theory aka results.

So my question is, how come other communities don't care about results as much as the smash community does? I'm sure members of those communities have made the same "pro-results" arguments that were made in this thread, so what gives?

 

[S_B]

I would also say Ryu and Pikachu, mostly because they only have like 3 notable players each though. Ryu in particular had his second best player drop him and his best player go on hiatus until like 2 weeks ago

That's true as well.

I've heard so many people say things like "Ryu has a 0-death!" but his results don't really support this. Pika likewise has hype but no real results.

We'd see both of them rise if more nerfs happen to the top tier, I'm sure...

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Yeah, I'd say Yoshi and Peach are the two top offenders in this category (not that it's their fault or anything).

They add up so damn well on paper, just not as much in practice.

That's true as well.

I've heard so many people say things like "Ryu has a 0-death!" but his results don't really support this. Pika likewise has hype but no real results.

We'd see both of them rise if more nerfs happen to the top tier, I'm sure...

well Ryu has like dozens of 0 - deaths but doesn't actually need them to kill like Bayo, he's also got what a lot of players would consider the best footsies in the game. Hes just so damn hard to play in comparison to the rest of the cast that nobody is actually going to use him, a lot like Peach

 

[Eugene Wang]

Okay thanks for the response guys.

I actually have another question regarding tier lists. So somebody mentioned a while ago how the smash tier list should be focused more around theory rather than results because smash is the only community that takes results so heavily into consideration when constructing a tier list, while other communities focus more on theory when constructing theirs. I don't follow the competitive scene of other communities to verify if this true or not, but I'm gonna give the original poster the benefit of the doubt and believe what they said.

Anyways, so a common "pro-results" argument was that theory is not only vulnerable to bias, but also that theory doesn't mean much if there is no evidence to support the theory aka results.

So my question is, how come other communities don't care about results as much as the smash community does? I'm sure members of those communities have made the same "pro-results" arguments that were made in this thread, so what gives?

Interactions in other fighting games are essentially one-dimensional (aerial approaches are very highly committal in traditional fighting games), and the interaction of every tool can be worked out. We don't get that luxury, since we have a bunch of variables. Momentum, percent-dependent hitstun, having to fish for knockouts explicitly rather than being able to win by just chip damage, recovery tools, edgeguards. It's enough to make any theorist's head spin. Yes, we try, but there's always another variable floating just outside our heads, so as a shortcut, we pay attention to games to determine what factors are worth giving attention to.

 

[Blobface]

ligersandtigons
I remember Thinkaman had a data dump that showed that Heavyweights, Doctor Mario, and Feminine characters tend to have considerably better results than their theory would imply due to having very dedicated mains.

 

[S_B]

I actually have another question regarding tier lists. So somebody mentioned a while ago how the smash tier list should be focused more around theory rather than results because smash is the only community that takes results so heavily into consideration when constructing a tier list, while other communities focus more on theory when constructing theirs. I don't follow the competitive scene of other communities to verify if this true or not, but I'm gonna give the original poster the benefit of the doubt and believe what they said.

I personally only go with results because nothing else actually matters when you come right down to it.

I can sit here and clench my eyes shut until I hallucinate the ultimate Shulk player, for example, but that isn't going to magically will her/him into existence to start taking tournaments.

If we believe a character has an amazing toolset but for some strange reason that character never does well in tournaments, the error is probably on our end and that character is likely not as good as we think.

The rare, RARE exception to this rule is that there just hasn't been a dedicated main who has truly shown us that character's potential (like Ranai), but that's by far the exception and not the norm.

 

[SvartWolf]

Can't really speak for the others, but stuff Tager has that Smash heavies don't:

• MAGNETS

This is exactly what Ganondorf needs (outside of his gimmicky uptilt). forget better movility, let them COME to you :D
(i know he would still be destroyed by strong CQC, but now at least his design would be going somewhere)

I personally only go with results because nothing else actually matters when you come right down to it.

I can sit here and clench my eyes shut until I enVISION the ultimate Shulk player, for example, but that isn't going to magically will her/him into existence to start taking tournaments.
.

There, fixed it for ya

 

[KERO]

I wasn't here for the 3ds days and I constantly hear about this mythical Greninja, can someone actually tell me what was going on with him that made him so broken?

Greninja was essentially a different character in 1.0.3 (the 3DS days). Firstly, his Usmash had ten fewer frames of end-lag, the side-hits did 2% more, and the hitbox itself was one unit larger, making it much harder to punish when spaced while also still being very powerful for a sourspot. Against a lot of characters, it was a move that very difficult if not impossible to punish (it essentially only had 22 frames of endlag) while giving a huge reward (Usmash sourspot actually had more knockback/damage than Dsmash sweetspot; it's killing a CPU Fox 11% earlier in Training mode. It was killing at 89% on ledge against Fox and 104% on Mario, and even without DI, that's also without rage on the larger 3DS FD blastzone).

Secondly his shuriken had seven fewer frames of ending lag, meaning he had a projectile, one that he could combo off of full charge no less, with only 19 frames of endlag on ground (his air shuriken was untouched in the patches). While his aerial shuriken might be better now, his ground shuriken was really incredible because it allowed Greninja to put even more pressure on opponents than he currently does. He simply can't do as much out of shuriken now as he used to (we used to be able to get free grabs out of full charged shuriken as long as it hit the opponent, and knowing that, I'm sure we would be able to find a lot of other things we could get out of it). Also, for some reason, he couldn't be grabbed during end-lag of shuriken.

Thirdly, Hydro Pump could straight up just block some Up-Bs head-on. Even if you weren't in helpless and going toward the stage, it pushed you back pretty far. It had a massive nerf, obviously, which really hurt Greninja's off-stage game. It's also worth noting Hydro Pump could be used as a follow-up to Uthrow if they were too high to Uair since it had a good chance of pushing a lot of characters past the top blast-zone. It was a bit gimmicky, but it did snatch KOs.

Fourth, Greninja's Uair KBG was reduced by 22. This move used to kill people at 120% from the middle of the screen, much like Sheik's Uair can do now. In fact, had it not seen that reduction, it's likely Greninja would have had his own hoo-hah as vectoring was a big reason as to why Uthrow to Uair wasn't an extremely powerful option on 3DS (could just simply vector the Uthrow upward in order to have more of a chance/time to escape the Uair). However, even without that combo, Uair was still very scary due to Greninja's fantastic jump height. Also, every hit of Uair until hit 6 auto-combo'd, whereas now, hit 5 has its own separate, unique hitbox that hits opponents up slightly, meaning it is possible for floaties to escape it pretty easily, especially if Greninja has rage (Luigi in particular actually always gets sent into tumble from hit 5 once Greninja has near-max rage, popping him far above hit 6). Now, you're lucky to see Greninja's Uair kill someone at 80% even if they're in the magnifier while being hit by it. It actually now has less knockback than one-turnip Villager Uair or Bronze Sword Robin Uair.

Finally, another gimmick, but Greninja could interrupt all landing lag with Shadow Sneak (which in itself was a risk given Shadow Sneak's massive end-lag back then). Made attempts to punish his landings, especially Dair, somewhat risky.

Fair also received a nerf by having its KBG reduced by 8, which made it kill less reliably as well. His hurtbox was also made larger, which indirectly made the Fox MU much worse as he could no longer crouch under lasers (he is now always forced to approach Fox regardless of who has percent lead).

Improvements he didn't have back then that he does now: Dsmash doing 2% more universally, Shadow Sneak having less end-lag, Shadow Sneak's shadow moving faster, Ftilt having ten fewer frames of endlag (that's where those ten frames were taken from =x), Ftilt damage increased by 0.75, Ftilt has a sourspot on the thigh (???), Shuriken coming out five frames faster, Dthrow has seven fewer frames of end-lag (that's where those seven frames came from as well I guess) and does 1% less (allowing it to combo better and be useful), Fsmash KBG improved by two, sweetspot of Usmash KBG being improved by one, Shadow Sneak KBG improved by four, Hydro Pump bounce no longer being a death sentence, three fewer frames of landing lag on Fair and Bair, one fewer frame of landing lag on Uair and Dair, standing grab comes out three frames earlier (total amount of frames unchanged), and dash attack comes out two frames earlier (total duration is two frames faster).

Opinion stuff, feel free to correct if I'm wrong:

Still think he was just a tad better back then just because of how strong those nerfed tools were, but I prefer him having the more balanced character design he has now.

I still think the most damaging nerf ended up being his Usmash, even if it's a nerf I 100% agree with. The move was an extremely powerful tool, especially combined with Greninja's mobility (and it would be even worse had it remained as it was after the shieldstun change). As a Greninja main, I don't really begrudge the nerfs, though, because it forced us to get creative with the character, and I think that's resulted in a much more dynamic character than what he might've been if most of us were able to simply rely on his overtuned tools to succeed at low or mid levels of play.

Greninja was a bit of a mess at release, and in some ways (hit 5 of Uair, blindspots on Smashes), he kind of still is, but I'm pretty happy with where he's at now. I'm not sure how his meta would've progressed had he not been nerfed, with many stating he had strong out of the box tools making him seem extremely strong on release, which draws comparisons to Brawl R.O.B. and G&W for me (who both were seen as strong characters at first but fell off due to atrocious MK MUs and also because we found ways to get around those tools), but he seems like a pretty strong contender now, with everything in his kit now having some kind of use that isn't overshadowed by a different move in said kit (even Sub has its moments).

 

[outfoxd]

Can't really speak for the others, but stuff Tager has that Smash heavies don't:

• MAGNETS
• High speed projectile that confirms combos fullscreen and magnetizes even on block
• Highly damaging command grabs with partial/total invincibility on startup
• Projectile immune moves for approaching zoners
• Tons of i-frames on backdash (but bad distance)
• MAGNETS

Tager's probably far from the sort of design Sakurai would ever consider, but buffing invincibility on heavyweights' rolls, adding projectile invuln to dash attacks, and giving arm/head intangibility to Flying Slam/Flame Choke/Inhale would be a start.

I don't think we want to give heavies windboxes on grabs though.

To be fair, in the first Blazblue he was still bottom tier despite all that. I remember getting eaten by Rachels and Nus online. Then it was Bangs in continuum shift.

I think he ended up high tier in a later installment but i never found out what changed.

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf has a very good, concrete design behind him. He uses commital, but powerful tools to block common options and get a feel for peoples habits, with generally high reward backing it. He still suffers from a lack of a kill throw and Wizkick still being too weak, but aside from those I really feel his design is near perfect. Most of his options are threatening and he's very capable of boxing most characters into their own fear, like a true evil overlord.

 

[BSP]

We are - I think bombs are amazing. Again, probably a top 5 projectile. The bomb pull is still a consideration but obviously that's what's keeping the move balanced.

Shortlist for top tier projectiles IMO:

• Needles
• Shadow Ball
• Bombs (both Links)
• Diddy's banana
• Shurikens
• Aura Sphere
• Gyro

Shoutouts to Dragon Fang (not all that IMO but I appreciate the arguments for it), Arcthunder, Sun Salutation and potentially Link's Arrows. I may be missing some but these are the ones that spring to mind. Funnily enough I'm not sure any of the dedicated zoners (Mega Man, Pac-Man, Samus etc) have top tier projectiles. Fruit and metal blade are likely high tier though, fruit in particular is really good just has a lot of counterplay.

I also think that in some MUs, namely with big characters or characters who rely on short hops, Bullet Climax is the best projectile in the game. In other MUs, namely with short characters with a good ground game and a good recovery, it's next to useless. If it fired horizontally it'd be the best projectile in the game easily (and Bayo would win every MU by quite some margin).

Pac-Man's Key, Bell, and Galaxian could make this list if someone had access to them in hand instantly. They're held back by the charge time and the time it takes to get them in hand.

Galaxian is a combo machine, Bell is a paralyzer that can be used OoS, and Key in hand is dumb in general. If someone could spawn any of them immediately, it'd be scary as heck, especially Key.

 

[S_B]

There, fixed it for ya

Oy.......

But yeah, results >>>>>>>>> theory.

Now, why results happen is both more interesting and also far more worthwhile to discuss. Examining what people are making work for a character, the type of playstyle they're using, etc. are good uses of discussion, especially when it comes to breakaway players like Ranai.

 

[Pazzo.]

I always thought that Smash's inherit focus on spacing and platforming is what screwed over heavies.

In traditional fighting games, speed is important, but not as vital when the stage is x2 larger than a TFG stage.

Personally I wish I could find an answer that doesn't alter the balance but gives larger characters a fighting chance.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ganondorf has a very good, concrete design behind him. He uses commital, but powerful tools to block common options and get a feel for peoples habits, with generally high reward backing it. He still suffers from a lack of a kill throw and Wizkick still being too weak, but aside from those I really feel his design is near perfect. Most of his options are threatening and he's very capable of boxing most characters into their own fear, like a true evil overlord.

Yeah, that's...pretty much the opposite of true. He has a clear, concise design with obvious goals, but you don't end up bottom of bottom tier for two games in a row with a good design.

He has no Utilt and his Neutral B is garbage so hot I think a little pressure would actually turn it into a miniature star, it's still possible to SideB too near a ledge and go into special fall for no reason, oh yes and he's still the slowest character in a game series where mobility is the greatest power of all.

That's all stuff I threw off the top of my head in the space of 60 seconds. Believe me, I could go on.

 

[L9999]

Yeah, I'd say Yoshi and Peach are the two top offenders in this category (not that it's their fault or anything).

They add up so damn well on paper, just not as much in practice.

Yoshi has results, he just gets ignored and has the overrated stigma. Raptor acheived a good placing at Pound, and Yikarur and TheWall have good results too. He is not bad and he might deserve his current placing. Peach is inconsistent. Kie, Umeki, SlayerZ and the other Peach players place well, then they don't. Then they disappear, then they appear again and beat up some notable people, then they go away again, and the process repeats itself in random order. With this incosistency people can't determine if Peach is good or not. Someone said it, she is a meme by this point.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganondorf has a very good, concrete design behind him. He uses commital, but powerful tools to block common options and get a feel for peoples habits, with generally high reward backing it. He still suffers from a lack of a kill throw and Wizkick still being too weak, but aside from those I really feel his design is near perfect. Most of his options are threatening and he's very capable of boxing most characters into their own fear, like a true evil overlord.

Grounded WizKick may not be so powerful, but it's a very decent gimping tool against poorly recovering opponents. But aerial WizKick is definitely something extremely dangerous to the opponent when you hit with the late hitboxes. It's sort of like an anti-juggle mix-up that can work effectively at the right time.

The lack of the kill throw is compensated when you have a throw and a grab move that setup into powerful attacks, potentially KO moves; D-Throw > U-Air or F-Air, and Flame Choke > D-Tilt or F-Tilt.

Yeah, that's...pretty much the opposite of true. He has a clear, concise design with obvious goals, but you don't end up bottom of bottom tier for two games in a row with a good design.

He has no Utilt and his Neutral B is garbage so hot I think a little pressure would actually turn it into a miniature star, it's still possible to SideB too near a ledge and go into special fall for no reason, oh yes and he's still the slowest character in a game series where mobility is the greatest power of all.

I can argue that his U-Tilt could be well-designed as a move to hit opponents who are recovering from the stage. Since it takes so long for the opponent to recover from a heavy attack, say, F-Tilt, then Ganondorf definitely has enough time to land the attack. As for Warlock Punch; while it is not an accurate move unless you're lucky, you have to understand that no single extremely powerful, early killing attack is meant to be accurate or even fast, unless you're Link, Marth and Ryu, where you have Spin Attack, Tipper F-Smash and True Shoryu that will kill you quick, and even then, they're not guaranteed and can be subsequently punished.

Understand that attacks like D3's F-Smash, Charizard's Flare Blitz, Bowser Bomb, Mega Man's U-Tilt, KO Punch, Falcon Punch, Flare Blade, Tipper Shield Breaker, Dragon Shot, Force Palm Grab, all of these attacks are hard to hit with, and the easiest one to even hit with is Dragon Shot, and you can still have it trumped by a faster attack or otherwise. Understandably, Warlock Punch is meant to be very inaccurate, but the best thing about this inaccurate move is its immense KO prowess, able to KO with Rage at even 0% damage on lighter opponents, then heavier opponents the closer the blast zone is.

Yes, Neutral B is very hard to hit with, and the risk is very high, but the reward for actually hitting with it is something that can be worth it if you actually hit with it.

Oh, and hey dude, slowest character in the game? I am going to assume that it's for running speed, because...uh...Robin and Jigglypuff said hi.

 

[Ninety]

Maybe it's just me, but I do not think that heavyweights are inherently worse by definition due to Smash's core mechanics. Rather, many heavyweights' poor kits stem from deliberate design decisions by Sakurai -- namely, that they must pay the price of being worse in 1v1s in exchange for being better in casual play, where living longer and landing those random smashes is actually feasible.

Like, let's look at everyone's favorite lardass, Ganondorf. There's no mystical mandate, other than Sakurai's design vision, that enforces most of his weaknesses. Slow, committal, heavy and powerful -- all these are core traits of his character design. But tell me, is there any reason that his side B puts him in special fall, murdering his horizontal recovery options, while characters like DIddy and Sheik can use their other mobility specials without worrying about not being able to up B afterwards? Is it an immutable fact that his grab range is ass, that he has barely any followups off of it, and that he -- a character built around overwhelming power -- doesn't even have a kill throw? That opponents can tech Flame Choke and escape any followups with a high degree of reliability?

The impact of small buffs in the right areas, without having to compromise the character's core design, cannot be overstated. Giving a throw-into-aerial kill confirm is something of a cheap way of improving a character's viability (Ain't that right, fellow Robins?), but nobody can deny the huge benefit that DK and Bowser got off their combos -- hell, Bowser even needed to be reined in afterwards. Even stuff like buffing the damage of Wizard's Foot so it outprioritizes more projectiles can be huge, and it doesn't conflict with Ganondorf's concept in the slightest.

It's no secret that Sakurai isn't a fan of cookie-cutter combos, but the metagame strongly favors kill confirms, as everyone brings up whenever the topic of Pikachu enters the debate table. Small changes to frame data and knockback values can open up entire new avenues of gameplay, with barely a visible change to the character at the casual FFA level -- so I don't buy for a second that heavies just must be kept reined in lest they make the game unplayable for the casual audience. It's certainly trickier to balance than just a few extra percent on smaller characters' attacks, but it's by no means impossible. So, in short, the notion that heavyweights just can't work in Smash isn't sound, and even a few buffs (or, in the case of Ike, a boatload) can completely turn around a character's meta into competitiveness.

 

[Kofu]

Maybe it's just me, but I do not think that heavyweights are inherently worse by definition due to Smash's core mechanics. Rather, many heavyweights' poor kits stem from deliberate design decisions by Sakurai -- namely, that they must pay the price of being worse in 1v1s in exchange for being better in casual play, where living longer and landing those random smashes is actually feasible.

Like, let's look at everyone's favorite lardass, Ganondorf. There's no mystical mandate, other than Sakurai's design vision, that enforces most of his weaknesses. Slow, committal, heavy and powerful -- all these are core traits of his character design. But tell me, is there any reason that his side B puts him in special fall, murdering his horizontal recovery options, while characters like DIddy and Sheik can use their other mobility specials without worrying about not being able to up B afterwards? Is it an immutable fact that his grab range is ***, that he has barely any followups off of it, and that he -- a character built around overwhelming power -- doesn't even have a kill throw? That opponents can tech Flame Choke and escape any followups with a high degree of reliability?

The impact of small buffs in the right areas, without having to compromise the character's core design, cannot be overstated. Giving a throw-into-aerial kill confirm is something of a cheap way of improving a character's viability (Ain't that right, fellow Robins?), but nobody can deny the huge benefit that DK and Bowser got off their combos -- hell, Bowser even needed to be reined in afterwards. Even stuff like buffing the damage of Wizard's Foot so it outprioritizes more projectiles can be huge, and it doesn't conflict with Ganondorf's concept in the slightest.

It's no secret that Sakurai isn't a fan of cookie-cutter combos, but the metagame strongly favors kill confirms, as everyone brings up whenever the topic of Pikachu enters the debate table. Small changes to frame data and knockback values can open up entire new avenues of gameplay, with barely a visible change to the character at the casual FFA level -- so I don't buy for a second that heavies just must be kept reined in lest they make the game unplayable for the casual audience. It's certainly trickier to balance than just a few extra percent on smaller characters' attacks, but it's by no means impossible. So, in short, the notion that heavyweights just can't work in Smash isn't sound, and even a few buffs (or, in the case of Ike, a boatload) can completely turn around a character's meta into competitiveness.

His side special putting him into freefall is probably because it would be really, really dumb if you could use a mobile command grab offstage to recover that also instantly kills any opponents if they edgeguard you wrong.

Everything else seems correct.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

His side special putting him into freefall is probably because it would be really, really dumb if you could use a mobile command grab offstage to recover that also instantly kills any opponents if they edgeguard you wrong.

Everything else seems correct.

Well i mean, it would buff one of his biggest issues

 

[S_B]

I always thought that Smash's inherit focus on spacing and platforming is what screwed over heavies.

In traditional fighting games, speed is important, but not as vital when the stage is x2 larger than a TFG stage.

Personally I wish I could find an answer that doesn't alter the balance but gives larger characters a fighting chance.

I think my suggestion would help, but what might also do heavies a favor is if they all had some form of legit poke, just a move they could throw out that wasn't incredibly punishable (and isn't jab1).

HWs are supposed to lose the neutral more often by design. That's the tradeoff for being able to deal more damage per hit. The problem with that is twofold: first, combos kind of negate the benefit of being a HW, meaning that a small quick character can generally get more reward off of a confirm than most heavies, and they can do so while taking less of a risk in the process.

And the second issue, like I mentioned at first, is RISK. With nothing safe on, well, ANYTHING, HWs basically have to hope that someone leaves an opening, one that they can exploit, despite usually being quite slow.

The dev team has been balancing this by making the fast characters lighter, but I'm not sure if it'll pay off in the end.

I think we're too far into development to make any radical changes at this point so the devs will have to work with what we've got now (which sadly means more kill confirms and being heavier, I guess...).

 

[Megamang]

I've always thought that giving them really strong single target moves would benefit them greatly in 1v1, without breaking them in FFAs. If ganon had amazing grab range and a kill throw, that would be great for him singling off against opponents, but would hardly make a difference in FFAs.

So I don't think that is the issue. People conflate Casual with FFA, but the issue is more like... bad players. Ask some casuals who they think is best in a 1v1 situation, and you might hear something like little mac, ganondorf, or roy. Huge reward trumps all when you don't have an understanding of a proper neutral or even spacing game.

 

[S_B]

Yeah, that's...pretty much the opposite of true. He has a clear, concise design with obvious goals, but you don't end up bottom of bottom tier for two games in a row with a good design.

I think he means that it's clear what they WANTED Gdorf to be and do.

The problem is that then they went and gave the rest of the cast way too many amazing tools that wreck Gdorf's by comparison.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I think he means that it's clear what they WANTED Gdorf to be and do.

The problem is that then they went and gave the rest of the cast way too many amazing tools that wreck Gdorf's by comparison.

I think that Ganondorf is intentionally kept where he is due to balancing around casual play. Ganondorf is a pretty scary character for the vast majority of people who play smash, and even competitively he can't be entirely slept on as long as you're not like, at a regional or something.

How could you meaningfully buff Ganondorf without making him complete bull**** to fight against for people at a medium skill level? Have him kill you in 3 hits?

 

[Muster]

I always thought that Smash's inherit focus on spacing and platforming is what screwed over heavies.

In traditional fighting games, speed is important, but not as vital when the stage is x2 larger than a TFG stage.

Personally I wish I could find an answer that doesn't alter the balance but gives larger characters a fighting chance.

I think the pmdt did a good job with ganondorf and bowser, giving them mobility and power (and armor, in bowser's case), while still retaining their weakness as combo food.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Grounded WizKick may not be so powerful, but it's a very decent gimping tool against poorly recovering opponents. But aerial WizKick is definitely something extremely dangerous to the opponent when you hit with the late hitboxes. It's sort of like an anti-juggle mix-up that can work effectively at the right time. [1]

The lack of the kill throw is compensated when you have a throw and a grab move that setup into powerful attacks, potentially KO moves; D-Throw > U-Air or F-Air, and Flame Choke > D-Tilt or F-Tilt. [2]

I can argue that his U-Tilt could be well-designed as a move to hit opponents who are recovering from the stage. Since it takes so long for the opponent to recover from a heavy attack, say, F-Tilt, then Ganondorf definitely has enough time to land the attack. [3]

As for Warlock Punch; while it is not an accurate move unless you're lucky, you have to understand that no single extremely powerful, early killing attack is meant to be accurate or even fast, unless you're Link, Marth and Ryu, where you have Spin Attack, Tipper F-Smash and True Shoryu that will kill you quick, and even then, they're not guaranteed and can be subsequently punished. [4]

Understand that attacks like D3's F-Smash, Charizard's Flare Blitz, Bowser Bomb, Mega Man's U-Tilt, KO Punch, Falcon Punch, Flare Blade, Tipper Shield Breaker, Dragon Shot, Force Palm Grab, all of these attacks are hard to hit with, and the easiest one to even hit with is Dragon Shot, and you can still have it trumped by a faster attack or otherwise. Understandably, Warlock Punch is meant to be very inaccurate, but the best thing about this inaccurate move is its immense KO prowess, able to KO with Rage at even 0% damage on lighter opponents, then heavier opponents the closer the blast zone is. [5]

Yes, Neutral B is very hard to hit with, and the risk is very high, but the reward for actually hitting with it is something that can be worth it if you actually hit with it. [6]

Oh, and hey dude, slowest character in the game? I am going to assume that it's for running speed, because...uh...Robin and Jigglypuff said hi. [7]

Right, doing this listlike because I can.

1. Aerial Wizkick has nowhere near the kill power or the hitboxes necessary to make the 42 frame landing lag worth it, and the shockwave is barely an afterthought that provides no safety whatsoever. Grounded Wizkick I'm relatively at peace with, despite its plethora of issues.
2. This all kind of falls apart when you realize that Dthrow and Flame Choke only set up kills against unskilled players, and Flame Choke combos fail utterly on half the cast.
3. And I could argue that Utilt is well designed as a punishment for Ganondorf not inputting Upsmash properly. Sure, it might have enough time to come out if your opponent is braindead or has been knocked hyper far away, but that means less than nothing if it never hits an opponent with the least ability to actually pay attention to the game. It's a waste of space and time, and it has been since Melee.
4. "X and Y are not meant to go together, except for all these times when they do" does not a coherent design make. True Shoryu in particular makes me look at Warlock Punch and decide that Namco has clearly taken over the character design duties, what with actually working and not being worse than having literally nothing happen when its command is input.
5. One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong. (Hint hint, it's the goddamn chargeable projectile, what the hell are you even smoking here Larry?) That aside, guess what? Aside from perhaps Shield Breaker, KO Punch, and Dragon Shot (seriously, what?), these are all considered to range from bad to absolutely worthless. Not good company.
   
6. I'm going to sum up my thoughts on Warlock Punch simply here. If you are alive, awake, and playing the game seriously offline, and you ever get hit by Warlock Punch outside of having your shield broken? Quit Smash. It's that bad, and you have to be even worse to get hit by it. Reward doesn't even factor into it. Difficulty doesn't even factor into it. Hitting an opponent who isn't in a coma or stunned forever is literally impossible. And you know what? It's two seconds of game time and your life that could have been better spent doing anything else.
7. Take a look at overall mobility statistics some time. Ganondorf has the lowest overall (especially run, and air speed, with crap-tastic top air speed and even worse acceleration and a not-inconsiderable gravity) with probably D3 as a close second.

I think he means that it's clear what they WANTED Gdorf to be and do.

The problem is that then they went and gave the rest of the cast way too many amazing tools that wreck Gdorf's by comparison.

Hence why I mentioned design goals, as opposed to the ass-tastic design outcome.

 

[Browny]

Okay thanks for the response guys.

I actually have another question regarding tier lists. So somebody mentioned a while ago how the smash tier list should be focused more around theory rather than results because smash is the only community that takes results so heavily into consideration when constructing a tier list, while other communities focus more on theory when constructing theirs. I don't follow the competitive scene of other communities to verify if this true or not, but I'm gonna give the original poster the benefit of the doubt and believe what they said.

Anyways, so a common "pro-results" argument was that theory is not only vulnerable to bias, but also that theory doesn't mean much if there is no evidence to support the theory aka results.

So my question is, how come other communities don't care about results as much as the smash community does? I'm sure members of those communities have made the same "pro-results" arguments that were made in this thread, so what gives?

As a massive pro-results debater, I'll weigh in on this.

Firstly, I honestly feel like character bias is EXTREME in smash while other fighting games dont really suffer this. Some newcomer in SFV could be top tier yet absolutely no one would main them for liking the character or their backstory or anything. There is almost nothing special about typical fighting game characters that makes people dedicated fans to them. This has a large effect when it comes to debating theory because people aren't blinded by their fanboy/girlism over thinking their favourite character is amazing. When you mix this with the average age of smash players which is like, 17-19, you get online debates by children with pokemon fans and sonic fans arguing who wins between Pikachu and Sonic. Can you see why that is so massively prone to bias?

People have a habit of determining matchups on theory based on a mere tiny % of what determines a matchup and often focus purely on quantifiable aspects only. I've been doing this stuff for years and I've seen it all. For the past year I commented on a lot of Mewtwo matchup discussion and this is how it went; "Mewtwo dies earlier than us and has a bad grab. 60:40 our favour". Now no one is denying that Mewtwo dying earlier or his grab is an issue which can definitely make the matchup hard, but there is SO MANY more factors that people don't consider. How about how difficult it is to approach Mewtwo? That he can escape combos? That he has some brutal frame traps offstage?

What you will find is that when discussing theory too many people can only see that which is easily quantifiable. They look at the %'s each other dies at and the damage an average combo does. Its obvious when 100 is bigger than 80, and 30 is smaller than 40. All of the other interactions between the characters that isn't easily proven using damage dealt is rarely considered. This is again a result of the average age of people on this forum who honestly just aren't good at analysing a game objectively.

Here's the thing though, young people aren't bad at the game and often they are infact the best. Tweek and Marss are both really young and possibly top 10 in the world. However the best young players in the world arent here on smashboards, they are out there winning tournaments.

So I have a matchup debate full of people who literally can't see how there is more to the game besides what % you live to, and the best players in the world out there proving the matchup 100% in practice. Who am I going to trust? I can have a bunch of people telling me that cloud trashes mewtwo because of 2x upair juggles doing 25%, and when I say that mewtwo can just float away and retreat to avoid juggles they come back by saying fsmash kills at 80% or I can watch videos of top level players showing exactly how it goes.

The averaging debating skill on this forum is awful. It doesn't take much to look at the average MU discussion on this forum and leave immediately to go and watch streams/matches of pro players before asking yourself why you ever wasted your time here.

---

As for your other question, IMO these characters have results noticeably above what their theory would suggest



And these characters have worse results than their theory

 

[MF Viewtiful]

I think 2 big differences for big bodies/grapplers in smash vs traditional fgs is stage size and knockdown. A smaller space of play literally means the opponent can't run particularly far and screen control can be achieved often by just a few well placed normals. The knockdown aspect is key to grapplers in general in 2d fgs. Once a grappler knocks you down, you can face an inescapable 50/50 guessing game that cycle itself to the ko. AFAIK, such a thing is not all that present in smash, at least for your big body types.

FYI MvC 2 Sentinel is the best big body that will ever be. He's actually among the most mobile characters in his game, breaking the classic sluggish archetype of big bodies.

 

[JediLink]

I personally only go with results because nothing else actually matters when you come right down to it.

I can sit here and clench my eyes shut until I hallucinate the ultimate Shulk player, for example, but that isn't going to magically will her/him into existence to start taking tournaments.

When you say you could imagine the ultimate Shulk player, do you mean you could imagine an optimised Shulk having top tier qualitites, or just a really good player winning with Shulk? If it's the second thing then of course that's going to be meaningless. We know or (at least currently believe) that Shulk has limitations in his kit that hold him back. You're not going to find anyone saying Shulk is good in theory because he isn't good in theory.

Firstly, I honestly feel like character bias is EXTREME in smash while other fighting games dont really suffer this. Some newcomer in SFV could be top tier yet absolutely no one would main them for liking the character or their backstory or anything. There is almost nothing special about typical fighting game characters that makes people dedicated fans to them.

I highly disagree with this and I really feel like I shouldn't have to explain why. Peach is interesting but Chun-Li isn't? Come on man.

 

[Blobface]

I think that Ganondorf is intentionally kept where he is due to balancing around casual play. Ganondorf is a pretty scary character for the vast majority of people who play smash, and even competitively he can't be entirely slept on as long as you're not like, at a regional or something.

How could you meaningfully buff Ganondorf without making him complete bull**** to fight against for people at a medium skill level? Have him kill you in 3 hits?

• Wizkick buffed to 16%, killing at about the same percent as F-tilt, sourspot removed.
• Flame Choke and Air Choke endlag reduced by 3 Frames. Would improve his Flame Choke follow ups drastically without allowing anything ridiculous.
  
• Kill Throw. Any throw would work though I personally would say U-throw would be best. He doesn't use it as much and the vertical killing would help with consistency.
• D-throw reworked to provide better, more consistent low % combos, but not allow for any kill confirms. Maybe buff his pummel for kicks.

That's it really. You could throw a few QoL things in here and there but with these four buffs I'd call Ganondorf perfect. Getting hit by him would always be bad regardless of what he hits you with, making him consistent. That's the problem Ganon suffers above all else right now. Yes, he can F-smash you and kill you below 60%, but if that's not going to happen often it may as well not be there. These buffs would make all his key options equally threatening in any situation, give him effective stock capping to prevent people living too long, and stay true to his design.

 

[SubconsciousRose]

Sorry for reposting this as it was posted a decent while ago, but when the topic shifts to Ganondorf and people say he's more meant for a casual setting like FFAs I feel that this picture is very appropriate.

That being said, that isn't to say Ganon isn't competent in his own rights in 1v1s even if it may be in only a few ways. Ganon possess some seriously amazing moves within his toolkit that other characters would LOVE to have. Ganon is one of my favorite characters to just play in friendlies for almost these tools alone really.

•An up smash that deals 21/24% and has VERY low cooldown and is insane at pressuring opponents on platforms and safe on block in some scenarios
•A frame 6 uair with quite a few active frames that ranges from reward of a powerful kill move to a gimping tool with a very low knockback angle making it great for that
•A powerful back air that autocancels in a short hop and has some shield safety due to its massive damage output of 16/17%
•Decently far reaching ftilt and dtilt which have decent startup of 10 frames and very good kill power not to mention ftilt can put opponents in very bad positions offstage which can lead to uair being used to gimp or kill
•Flame Choke as a command grab that does good damage and can put opponents in tricky positions to get out of depending on positioning

These kinds of tools in a vacuum are things a lot of characters would love to have so it just leaves someone to wonder. "How can a character have tools this good but be so lacking?" Some characters just have to suffer from having a few really good tools being held down by near everything else about them whether those other moves are downright bad or just lacking any real notability.

I could go on for a long time about moves I'd love on other characters because they're stuck on less than stellar ones such as Palutena's Bair and Dash Attack but I digress.

 

[S_B]

How could you meaningfully buff Ganondorf without making him complete bull**** to fight against for people at a medium skill level? Have him kill you in 3 hits?

A kill throw would help. Most casuals I know don't use grab very often.

Also, a safe poke would be nice for all heavies, as that's what many heavies lack. A poke to use as an opener would be a godsend for heavies at the competitive level...

 

[Nobie]

I'm someone who leans more towards theory with results being there to support theory rather than the other way around, but I don't think it's a big deal if someone goes the other way. The reason I concentrate on theory is because 1) I like talking about it 2) if we wait only for what's concrete and definite then we're limiting our imaginations. I mean, theory can't just come from out of nowhere, it's usually based on something like frame data, training mode, vs matchups, watching high-level footage, etc., but I often feel like there are just bits and pieces missing from how people picture their characters. That is to say, when the image of a character, whether formed by theory or results, is incomplete, then the only way to fill it in is with... theory and/or results.

Also, sometimes a character is so underrepresented that you have pretty much nothing to go on but theory. This often implies that they're too bad to be used competitively, but that also becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In the case of Mewtwo, the buffs of course helped its viability immensely, but what really got the ball in motion is that it encouraged players who dropped Mewtwo to revisit the character, to try and lab out what benefits the changes could have brought. That's kind of an unfair example as only a handful of characters have ever been that buffed (Ike, maybe Samus), but the theoretical potential of these characters encouraged more play.

What theory also does is help clarify results. For example, is a massive win rate between character X and character Y because of matchup unfamiliarity? Theoretically, should there be something character Y can do that's just not explored enough?

As I write, it becomes clear to me that the line between theory and results is actually blurred, despite it not seeming that way. While results are finite numbers, they don't tell the whole story, and it can be hard to tell which theories are almost too reliant on results and which aren't. For example, people love to say that Jigglypuff can't approach, and I can't tell if this is coming from theory or practice. Like I know I should be listening to Jigglypuff mains on this because they know the character better than I do, but Jigglypuff's aerial mobility and long-lasting hitboxes make it incredibly hard for me to believe that Jigglypuff is like Ganondorf-level when it comes to advancing on the opponent. In these cases, I'm more suspicious of how people define the idea of "approaching" then I am Jigglypuff's abilities.

Last thing: I'm not sure if it was because of the buff, but I noticed that Ganondorf's Flame Choke now outranges most of Jigglypuff's attacks, including fair. (poor Jiggs) How that translates against stronger characters, you'll have to ask a real Ganondorf main.

 

[Blobface]

The Flame Choke buff is there but it's really not very significant. I'm sure there's cases where it can grab people when it previously couldn't, but I don't think it has any sort of universal impact.