Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[adom4]

Dedede is so bad people don't remember him when referring to superheavies

DK is better than the rest because of better frame data for the most part, better matchup spread, better more combos but then great knockback too, up-throw to up-air (ding-dong), better results, and being able to edgeguard better than the rest of then.

I'd say Ganon & DDD gives him a run for his money when it comes to edgeguarding, but yeah DK is easily the best out of them.

 

[-Lavos-]

Dedede is so bad people don't remember him when referring to superheavies

DK is better than the rest because of better frame data for the most part, better matchup spread, better more combos but then great knockback too, up-throw to up-air (ding-dong), better results, and being able to edgeguard better than the rest of then.

Didn't mention Dedede because I used to main him for a time and I understand him better than the other 4. Either way, Dedede is distinctly more zoning based, at least in theory, being the only one with a (mediocre) projectile, aswell as having more disjointed hitboxes, and so his niche among the heavies is more clear than the others. What I meant to ask is what advantages are there to picking Bowser, Charizard or Ganondorf when DK seems to do everything better than them? And how should players approach the matchups against them differently?

 

[Rizen]

DK's frame data is good for a heavy but mediocre overall.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Donkey Kong
IMO what really makes him good is his movement speed paired with heavy traits like power and sword-like reach. He has the 9th best air and walk speed and above average in the other categories. Mobility really helps everything, for example look at Toon Link vs Link. The big thing TL has over Link isn't frame data; it's mobility.
..And of course the ding-dong is a great option off grab too.

 

[Nobie]

I brought this up a while ago, but it's notable that @TSM ZeRo praised Gordos in his 1.1.4 tier list video. Everyone talks about how bad or mediocre they are, but I feel like ZeRo's opinion should be taken into account if he lists Gordo as one of Dedede's major strengths. What is ZeRo seeing differently about Gordos, and is he mistaken or on the money?

I think one possible solution to improve heavies (though I think they're in a good place in Smash 4 at this point) is to give them certain attacks that are quicker, do lots of damage, but don't send the opponent terribly far, so that they can be comboed out of or followed up on. I'm thinking of other fighting game grapplers who can force 50/50s and wakeup situations, and I think a lot of the time heavies just hit the opponent too far. There are already attacks like this, such as Ike's down throw, Bowser's up throw, etc., but they wouldn't necessarily be for killing.

As for the act of killing, I think it would be nice to make heavies' quicker attacks kill at higher percents, or give them kill confirms that only work with weaker follow-ups at very high percents. This is so that when you've damaged the opponent enough you're rewarded with more reliable kill options. Certain attacks get like this with a bit of Rage already, like Dedede's jab combo, but I think it could be taken further. Like if Ganondorf's Jab could kill at 150%, there wouldn't be this sense of diminishing returns when they get to too high a percent.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

DK's frame data is good for a heavy but mediocre overall.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Donkey Kong
IMO what really makes him good is his movement speed paired with heavy traits like power and sword-like reach. He has the 9th best air and walk speed and above average in the other categories. Mobility really helps everything, for example look at Toon Link vs Link. The big thing TL has over Link isn't frame data; it's mobility.
..And of course the ding-dong is a great option off grab too.

Well i mean, his hitboxes last a long time, hes got a frame 3 combo breaker that does like 30%, he has 3 aerials with less than 40 active frames, his startup is good on most everything but like fair, fsmash, dair, and his specials with tons of intangibility on top of all that, and average landing lag. His frame data is actually pretty good, not Sheik or Little Mac tier, but good

 

[Yikarur]

DK has better frame data than Yoshi overall. I remember when people said "Yoshis amazing frame data"
DK's Frame Data is really really good.

 

[Big-Cat]

I always thought that Smash's inherit focus on spacing and platforming is what screwed over heavies.

In traditional fighting games, speed is important, but not as vital when the stage is x2 larger than a TFG stage.

Personally I wish I could find an answer that doesn't alter the balance but gives larger characters a fighting chance.

If you ask me, it's the heavies that have to focus on spacing and platforming more than other characters.

 

[Rizen]

DK's frame data is very good for a heavy but he has frame 5 as his fastest ground attack and frame a 6 jumpsquat. I meant he doesn't compare to high tier non-heavies overall.

 

[S_B]

DK's aerial mobility is another reason he's the best of the heavies. It means he can RAR punish opponents who commit to things from far further away and doesn't have to attempt to walk and powershield everything that's thrown at him like the rest usually do.

Also makes him a much better edgeguarder...

 

[G. Stache]

The problem I have with Kirby is that his design in the neutral game, to my knowledge, doesn't seem to make sense. slow, no way to control enough space, unable to approach to get his good reward, etc. and, yeah, you could tell me that this is the same problem with other people too (Ganondorf comes to mind, but at least his tilts come with good range). But Kirby literally has 30+ copy abilities to work with. And out of those copy abilities, he could have a usable disjoint, good projectiles, burst mobility, etc. You know, things that would fix him. Yet I'm kind of shocked that is moves were never switched up a bit more. Just think what Kirby could be if they gave him the tools he needed in neutral.

Also, I don't know who said it, but I wouldn't say that DDD and Ganon give DK a 'run for his money' when it comes to edgeguarding. I agree that they're both better at edgeguarding overall, but you shouldn't underestimate DK's Bair offstage. The range and lingering hitbox on the Bair along with DK's superb airspeed can make for a very scary situation.

 

[adom4]

The problem I have with Kirby is that his design in the neutral game, to my knowledge, doesn't seem to make sense. slow, no way to control enough space, unable to approach to get his good reward, etc. and, yeah, you could tell me that this is the same problem with other people too (Ganondorf comes to mind, but at least his tilts come with good range). But Kirby literally has 30+ copy abilities to work with. And out of those copy abilities, he could have a usable disjoint, good projectiles, burst mobility, etc. You know, things that would fix him. Yet I'm kind of shocked that is moves were never switched up a bit more. Just think what Kirby could be if they gave him the tools he needed in neutral.

Also, I don't know who said it, but I wouldn't say that DDD and Ganon give DK a 'run for his money' when it comes to edgeguarding. I agree that they're both better at edgeguarding overall, but you shouldn't underestimate DK's Bair offstage. The range and lingering hitbox on the Bair along with DK's superb airspeed can make for a very scary situation.

I never underestimated it, DK is a great edgeguarder, but i just think that DDD & Ganon are around his level offstage give or take.

 

[Blobface]

L -Lavos-
Ganondorf really wants you to be afraid of his burst options (Flame Choke, Wizkick, and Dash Attack mainly), and he really suffers when people stop acknowledging his weaker ones. Grounded Choke's strength varies from character to character and can't be completely ignored, but Wizkick is still pretty under tuned, so feel free to roll if you're starting to feel he's exerting too much pressure.

Above all else though, play conservatively and stay safe. Don't try to just camp, but try not to put yourself in positions where Ganon can hit you with his really meaty attacks.

 

[Nobie]

The problem I have with Kirby is that his design in the neutral game, to my knowledge, doesn't seem to make sense. slow, no way to control enough space, unable to approach to get his good reward, etc. and, yeah, you could tell me that this is the same problem with other people too (Ganondorf comes to mind, but at least his tilts come with good range). But Kirby literally has 30+ copy abilities to work with. And out of those copy abilities, he could have a usable disjoint, good projectiles, burst mobility, etc. You know, things that would fix him. Yet I'm kind of shocked that is moves were never switched up a bit more. Just think what Kirby could be if they gave him the tools he needed in neutral.

Also, I don't know who said it, but I wouldn't say that DDD and Ganon give DK a 'run for his money' when it comes to edgeguarding. I agree that they're both better at edgeguarding overall, but you shouldn't underestimate DK's Bair offstage. The range and lingering hitbox on the Bair along with DK's superb airspeed can make for a very scary situation.

It actually makes perfect sense, because Kirby's neutral is SUPPOSED TO BE BAD.

 

[Yonder]

I feel they should nerf ding dong though. As seen at Pound, it being 100% (no joke) of all DK's kills is very stale and redundant. Nerf the power of ding dong and improve the landing lag of his aerials or something. If Bowser doesn't get to keep a ding dong that's less effective than DK's due to poor airspeed, why should DK? I mean, it can still work, not just killing as early as 60 guaranteed as we watch DK fish for grabs all day.

 

[G. Stache]

Delete please, misclicked

 

[Man Li Gi]

Hello everyone! Frequent lurker of this thread, thought i ought to start posting. I have trouble understanding the differences between the 4 main heavies (Bowser, DK, Ganon, Charizard) and subsequently i have trouble in the matchups against them because i have a generic "vs heavy" strategy in my mind. Can any players of the characters shed some light on the differences between them? What strengths and weaknesses do they have relative to each other, and also, why is it that DK is so much more viable compared to the other 3?

I know a lot of people are saying DK is the best and everything, but you claim you want to know the difference between them.

Ganondorf has the lowest mobility overall in the game. What does this mean? This means that if you have a percentage lead, he has to approach, but his approaches are so telegraphed. So take advantage of that by playing patiently. Force their hand to place moves they don't want to do. If you are down, the most important thing is to not get scared or tunnel vision. Ganon mains recognize fear and will start doing options that could put the fear of God into you.

Why people consider DK so good? You have seen the mobility, Ding Dong, frame data as some points. If that was the case as to why he is good, then Bowser would be better. Bowser has comparable frame data, mobility, Shell Shock and has I frames. Bowser has better ledge options and has better disadvantage as well as land better. Even with all this though, DK is better from all the heavies. The reason being is that his moves flow together. They have just enough low base knock back, but high scaling to be a low percentage damage racker and killer at higher percents. The "flow" is brought on by the fact his tilts and bair cover many options and could suffocate lower ranged or worse frame data characters. He also gets a way to cover in the fact his ground mobility is pretty good. DK also has setups into kills that aren't so hard to confirm too (not even talking about Ding Dong).

 

[adom4]

I know a lot of people are saying DK is the best and everything, but you claim you want to know the difference between them.

Ganondorf has the lowest mobility overall in the game. What does this mean? This means that if you have a percentage lead, he has to approach, but his approaches are so telegraphed. So take advantage of that by playing patiently. Force their hand to place moves they don't want to do. If you are down, the most important thing is to not get scared or tunnel vision. Ganon mains recognize fear and will start doing options that could put the fear of God into you.

Why people consider DK so good? You have seen the mobility, Ding Dong, frame data as some points. If that was the case as to why he is good, then Bowser would be better. Bowser has comparable frame data, mobility, Shell Shock and has I frames. Bowser has better ledge options and has better disadvantage as well as land better. Even with all this though, DK is better from all the heavies. The reason being is that his moves flow together. They have just enough low base knock back, but high scaling to be a low percentage damage racker and killer at higher percents. The "flow" is brought on by the fact his tilts and bair cover many options and could suffocate lower ranged or worse frame data characters. He also gets a way to cover in the fact his ground mobility is pretty good. DK also has setups into kills that aren't so hard to confirm too (not even talking about Ding Dong).

Not saying that Ganon's mobility isn't awful but i think it's better than DDD's, just because of stuff like Dash attack & to a lesser extent wizkick and choke.

 

[epicnights]

It actually makes perfect sense, because Kirby's neutral is SUPPOSED TO BE BAD.

This is something that cannot be understated. Kirby, in his own games, is not much of a threat at all with no copy ability. In fact, the only ways he can damage an enemy without using inhale is to either crouch slide, shoot a puff of air, or literally run into the enemy, most of which don't even work against boss enemies.

Kirby is only strong when he has an enemy's power, and this translates into his heavy advantage combo game.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Not saying that Ganon's mobility isn't awful but i think it's better than DDD's, just because of stuff like Dash attack & to a lesser extent wizkick and choke.

Yeah its bad, but D3 has at least some jumps to mix it up. Also I didn't feel comfortable about talking about other heavies cuz I don't play them. I wanted to mention what I THINK about the others, but since I don't play them, I don't KNOW them like I do know Ganon and DK. I feel like people should talk about what they know before they talk about what they think, but that's just me.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

DK's frame data is very good for a heavy but he has frame 5 as his fastest ground attack and frame a 6 jumpsquat. I meant he doesn't compare to high tier non-heavies overall.

Well I mean, there is Bayo. The mysterious supposed best character in the game with relatively bad frame data, bad grabs, and **** tier mobility outside of a punishable side special which is only made up for by Witch Time, and kill combos from 0 - 50% which is literally the only thing that makes her viable

 

[Nobie]

I know a lot of people are saying DK is the best and everything, but you claim you want to know the difference between them.

Ganondorf has the lowest mobility overall in the game. What does this mean? This means that if you have a percentage lead, he has to approach, but his approaches are so telegraphed. So take advantage of that by playing patiently. Force their hand to place moves they don't want to do. If you are down, the most important thing is to not get scared or tunnel vision. Ganon mains recognize fear and will start doing options that could put the fear of God into you.

Why people consider DK so good? You have seen the mobility, Ding Dong, frame data as some points. If that was the case as to why he is good, then Bowser would be better. Bowser has comparable frame data, mobility, Shell Shock and has I frames. Bowser has better ledge options and has better disadvantage as well as land better. Even with all this though, DK is better from all the heavies. The reason being is that his moves flow together. They have just enough low base knock back, but high scaling to be a low percentage damage racker and killer at higher percents. The "flow" is brought on by the fact his tilts and bair cover many options and could suffocate lower ranged or worse frame data characters. He also gets a way to cover in the fact his ground mobility is pretty good. DK also has setups into kills that aren't so hard to confirm too (not even talking about Ding Dong).

I know that Shaya has talked about how just using the terms "neutral, advantage, disadvantage" doesn't convey a full image of what makes characters good or bad in Smash Bros. Would a term like "flow" make sense to add, essentially referring to how well characters' moves can adapt to different situations, such as damage, rage, stage layouts, etc?

Essentially, how effective is your character at adjusting to the ever-changing variables of Smash?

 

[williamsga555]

Nobie

Gordos are basically the main reason to use Dedede from a gameplay perspective. I believe his entire re-tooled kit from Brawl was based around their use, and is a big reason why he has a lot of the weaknesses he does.

When used properly, gordos force your opponent to commit to one of numerous options. This is great for Dedede (or any character, really): guess right, or if your opponent just messes up, and you get big reward. Consider this:

Dedede lobs an up-tilted gordo from about 1/3 the distance from the ledge to cover your getup options.​

Cool, pressure's on you now. You have a variety of ways to handle this, but Dedede has a potential counter in place for all of them, and you don't want to get hit by him at all. You don't want to get hit by Gordo itself, either, for the same reasons. So what do you do?

• Wait on ledge. If the gordo wasn't spaced properly, it won't hit you. But now you have to get up without your invincibility, or he can set up the same trap if you wait too long. If it was spaced properly, gordo hits and stagespikes you from a hanging position. Ouch.
  
• Swat it away, either with getup attack or a rising aerial. He can either re-reflect it for absurd damage, or go for a shield grab. You don't want either of those.
• Neutral getup, shield gordo. Dedede gets a grab, you don't want this.
• Neutral getup, swat gordo. Same scenario as before.
• Jump+airdodge. This puts you closer to gordo's bounce, so mistiming means it hits you. With proper timing, if read, you eat a bair instead. Ouch.
• Roll getup. Negates gordo entirely, but if read, you eat a down smash. Ouch.

It's why Gordos are such a fascinating move, I think. The pressure exerted from them is immense, and creates this really intricate counter-counter design between you and D3. And that's not even talking about the way they travel, either, which in itself is complicated (dealing with arcing, bouncing projectiles that get affected by height, slope, etc. takes a lot of thought from both parties).

So what makes them considered somewhat underwhelming at times is that setting up these scenarios is either a rare opportunity or a complete gamble, because the act of tossing one out carries a very long commitment (FAF of 64, fastest possible attack after that is frame 6). Normally that wouldn't be such a big deal, but Gordos being Gordos, the risk of getting them reflected before you can even attempt to guess their action is a big one. And Dedede being Dedede, him getting the space and/or stage control needed to get set up is a daunting task.

Additionally, by their very design, Gordos carry risks for Dedede even when he has the time to launch one safely. He basically has to predict your reaction by necessity, since he doesn't have the mobility nor the frame data to punish any of them by reaction alone. If he can't read you, you get out of pressure without much trouble.

Despite all of that, Gordos are good. Give them to any character with half-decent mobility and/or frame data and they'd be horrifying. It's a lingering, bouncing, living, 14% projectile with an absurd amount of variables that could change how it moves.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I know that Shaya has talked about how just using the terms "neutral, advantage, disadvantage" doesn't convey a full image of what makes characters good or bad in Smash Bros. Would a term like "flow" make sense to add, essentially referring to how well characters' moves can adapt to different situations, such as damage, rage, stage layouts, etc?

Essentially, how effective is your character at adjusting to the ever-changing variables of Smash?

Yes flow is used for that as it serves as a multi purpose to stall, kill or space. DKs tilts (IMO the best part of his kit) are all pretty top notch. Legit if ftilt was safe on hit and didn't have so much end lag, he would have the best tilts in game. Utilt is the ultimate homie coming in to combo and kill. Dtilt would be great if it had decent scaling or the just decreased the end lag akin to Diddy.

DK has a less than linear game plan. People think its all about grabs, but really his game plan is to suffocate his opponents with the range and make them shield which setups into Ding Dong. If you watch really good DKs, you see them going deep and aggressive (Dkwill and Vex come to mind). They are the gimmicky ones who seemingly just do things that work because they outsmart their opponents (Larry Lurr and M2K). And then there's the worst type which plays defensive (myself). In a game where you could take characters poor OOS options, playing defensive can be bad, but hey I can't help it.

 

[G. Stache]

It actually makes perfect sense, because Kirby's neutral is SUPPOSED TO BE BAD.

From a viewpoint of character accuracy then sure, Kirby is supposed to have a bad neutral. From competitive standpoint, it still doesn't quite add up. Competitively Kirby doesn't deserve such a bad neutral state. Yeah, maybe it should be limited in some ways to make sure it's not giving him easy access to a good advantage state. But I don't see why it has to be so unforgiving for Kirby. I'm all for keeping character accuracy. But saying that Kirby is supposed to have a bad neutral because that's how he's 'supposed to be' makes as much sense as me saying that Jigglypuff should stay irrelevant because she's irrelevant in the actual Pokemon games, too.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I was thinking about the common mantra "mobility is king" and how Rosalina's success kind of flies in the face of that. She's got good aerial weaving ability, but that's pretty much it. It seems that Luma is more or less the sole reason for her success. (We really need a Luma face icon thing.) That in turn got me thinking about what other characters are good in spite of having less-than-stellar mobility. Some preliminary thought got me the following list, which is by no means intended to be exhaustive:



(EDIT: Other characters that may qualify for varying levels of "good". Some of these may be stretching it...
)

And looking at this list, I noticed a few common elements. Large disjoints to hit opponents and wall them out without putting their own hurtboxes in harm's way. Projectiles to control space and force a reaction. (Overlaps a bit with disjoints depending on the projectile.) Solid grabs, throws, and/or throw followups. And especially in Ryu's case, a preference for baiting and punishing.

So that's several characters that are good in spite of not being particularly fast, and more that are on the cusp. But what about the opposite, characters that are fast, but bad? I'm looking at the list of characters and the only one that really sticks out is Little Mac. Maybe Roy if you consider him fast. Captain Falcon isn't top tier or anything but he's respectable at least.

So it seems that "mobility is king" is true, but perhaps defense is the next best thing?

(Completely unrelated aside: Does anyone else find it silly that the Bayonetta 2 head icon is "4bayonetta" while the Bayonetta 1 head is "4bayonetta2"?)

 

[Nobie]

From a viewpoint of character accuracy then sure, Kirby is supposed to have a bad neutral. From competitive standpoint, it still doesn't quite add up. Competitively Kirby doesn't deserve such a bad neutral state. Yeah, maybe it should be limited in some ways to make sure it's not giving him easy access to a good advantage state. But I don't see why it has to be so unforgiving for Kirby. I'm all for keeping character accuracy. But saying that Kirby is supposed to have a bad neutral because that's how he's 'supposed to be' makes as much sense as me saying that Jigglypuff should stay irrelevant because she's irrelevant in the actual Pokemon games, too.

I didn't mean that from a lore perspective, I meant that from a gameplay perspective (though Kirby's lore and source games play a role). Your argument was that Kirby could get all of these different things that could help his approach, but that would defeat the purpose of a character designed to have a hard time getting in, who's then rewarded for actually getting in. The character was built in this direction from the beginning of Smash 4, all of the buffs are in this direction, and even the one change designed to make Kirby more manageable while approaching was a small speed buff.

The challenge presented for Kirby players is, "how does short, stubby Kirby close in on the opponent?" much like how Mewtwo's is "How does Mewtwo keep the opponent out?" or how Sheik players now have to deal with "How do I close out a stock?"

It's very possible that Kirby will be buffed to have a better approach, but it's never going to be to the point that Kirby will ever have a good neutral.

It's sort of like wanting to play a character with good aerials, but then choosing Little Mac repeatedly.

 

[Radical Larry]

On one hand, I can agree with some people about Ganondorf (except Salty, who's really just dry at this point), but what if Ganondorf actually changes up his game plan and strategy overall? We know how people normally get used to using one specific strategy and yet they can also be countered by a person who knows the strategy, but what if someone came up with a far different strategy and utilization for a character instead, that is more effective than the other? That's something that actually should be talked about since characters usually tend to have one sort of strategy that's prominently effective with them, and currently, Ganondorf's strategy (or -ies) are sub-par at best, so what if someone discovers a significantly more effective strategy?

 

[S_B]

I feel they should nerf ding dong though. As seen at Pound, it being 100% (no joke) of all DK's kills is very stale and redundant. Nerf the power of ding dong and improve the landing lag of his aerials or something. If Bowser doesn't get to keep a ding dong that's less effective than DK's due to poor airspeed, why should DK? I mean, it can still work, not just killing as early as 60 guaranteed as we watch DK fish for grabs all day.

I'd rather they just gave Bowser his reliable confirms back, personally...

It seems the dev team doesn't have a plan for heavies beyond "Give them a kill confirm to possibly comback quickly from a grab." which is kinda working...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd rather they just gave Bowser his reliable confirms back, personally...

It seems the dev team doesn't have a plan for heavies beyond "Give them a kill confirm to possibly comback quickly from a grab." which is kinda working...

Except the difficulty lies in getting the grab in the first place. DK runs decently fast and Bowser's pivot grab is massive from what I hear, but still. They're all pretty big targets.

I didn't play a whole lot of Street Fighter, but IIRC Zangief had some terrifying vortexes and just did tons of damage if he got in. I think he had generous invincibility frames to help out too? It seems like such things are borderline mandatory for big + slow fighters to climb to the top.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I think he had generous invincibility frames to help out too? It seems like such things are borderline mandatory for big + slow fighters to climb to the top.

This^
Both Charizard and DK have a TON of invincibility/intangibility, not sure about Bowser and Dorf as far as I know only has Warlock Punch
Arguably the two best super heavyweights have a lot more super armor than the two lower tier ones, I doubt this is a coincidence

 

[BunbUn129]

Not to nitpick, but DK's high air speed is somewhat held back by his below average air acceleration. And air acceleration is perhaps more important than top air speed (look at Roy).

 

[Y2Kay]

And air acceleration is perhaps more important than top air speed (look at Roy).

And Mewtwo. If he had good acceleration and gravity, he would be crazy ridiculous.

 

[Radical Larry]

This^
Both Charizard and DK have a TON of invincibility/intangibility, not sure about Bowser and Dorf as far as I know only has Warlock Punch
Arguably the two best super heavyweights have a lot more super armor than the two lower tier ones, I doubt this is a coincidence

What...? Please tell me you're really and honestly joking right now.
The two best Super Heavies are DK and Bowser, and the latter has no SA on his attacks, while DK only has SA on Giant Punch. Both have great setups from their grabs, though.

And Mewtwo. If he had good acceleration and gravity, he would be crazy ridiculous.

Shulk.

 

[arbustopachon]

This^
Both Charizard and DK have a TON of invincibility/intangibility, not sure about Bowser and Dorf as far as I know only has Warlock Punch
Arguably the two best super heavyweights have a lot more super armor than the two lower tier ones, I doubt this is a coincidence

Bowser's limbs are intangible during his jabs, tilts and smashes.
The shell is also intangible during his u-smash.

Edit: forgot about his head being intangible during Uair

 

[Luco]

On one hand, I can agree with some people about Ganondorf (except Salty, who's really just dry at this point), but what if Ganondorf actually changes up his game plan and strategy overall? We know how people normally get used to using one specific strategy and yet they can also be countered by a person who knows the strategy, but what if someone came up with a far different strategy and utilization for a character instead, that is more effective than the other? That's something that actually should be talked about since characters usually tend to have one sort of strategy that's prominently effective with them, and currently, Ganondorf's strategy (or -ies) are sub-par at best, so what if someone discovers a significantly more effective strategy?

Like at the end of the day a viable strategy is just 'being good in neutral'. A player who's good enough in neutral can often make up for a character's weaknesses. It's how low-tier heroes exist - amazing players who can just make up the issues in a character's core gameplan. By the end of Brawl pretty much every character had their notable players and many of the low and mid tiers had their 'heroes' who took decent - great results at events (Ryo for Ike, Mekos/PF/FAE for Lucas, Shaky/FOW for Ness, Ed for Zelda, Raptor + others for Yoshi, NAKAT for Fox, Will for DK, Falln for Kirby, Verm + others for Ganon etc). You'll notice a lot of these names are familiar, many get top spots still (ie they're really good players) in smash 4. In any case I think smash 4 will settle into that state and already is. You probably know who your character's top player/s are, now it's just waiting for them to settle into being good enough to consistently punch above their character's weight. Ganny included.

That aside, it would be less about discovering a more effective strategy with Ganny, he's prolly a bit limited for that, but finding a new tech on the other hand could be substantial for him. Not sure how much tech growth he has still but hey, we only just realised how potentially effective Bidou could be so who knows what tech could benefit who?

 

[|RK|]

I think Kirby is really just supposed to copy the opponent (also why they buffed Inhale some time ago).

 

[TheGoodGuava]

What...? Please tell me you're really and honestly joking right now.
The two best Super Heavies are DK and Bowser, and the latter has no SA on his attacks, while DK only has SA on Giant Punch. Both have great setups from their grabs, though.



Shulk.

Please, enlighten me on how a how Bowser is better than Charizard

Bowser's limbs are intangible during his jabs, tilts and smashes.
The shell is also intangible during his u-smash.

Edit: forgot about his head being intangible during Uair

Sorry, sorta meant intangibility with invincibility. Honestly though, DK has a lot of intangibility

 

[T4ylor]

TheGoodGuava Why would you think otherwise? Charizard hasn't done anything notable. He's got no results and no players, unlike Bowser. Having played a good amount of both of them I'd have to say that Bowser has a better neutral, better grab range, better grab combos, and can kill off of his grab earlier than Charizard. That's not everything but his gameplan is generally all around more reliable than Charizard's.

 

[arbustopachon]

Bowser has better reward out of grabs, survives a lot longer, kills you at like 83% out of grabs, is generally safer on shield than zard, does not have terrible traction weakening his oos game, a better pivot grab, a better dash grab, kills generally earlier and his grab is scary.

Zard has better mobility, slightly better frame data, a better standing grab, a smaller frame, better recovery, arguably better disadvantaged state, a stupid bair, a stupid jab, a much better flamethrower, better anti zoning, better edgeguarding, and a better stock cap in the form of his u-throw.

I think bowser's reward and neutral state trumps over everything else zard has to offer tbh. Tho i don't think zard is that bad of a character.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Yeah its bad, but D3 has at least some jumps to mix it up. Also I didn't feel comfortable about talking about other heavies cuz I don't play them. I wanted to mention what I THINK about the others, but since I don't play them, I don't KNOW them like I do know Ganon and DK. I feel like people should talk about what they know before they talk about what they think, but that's just me.

D3 also has by far the worst air mobility in the game. His multiple jumps do allow him to be more evasive than Dorf when playing defensively, but he definitely has it worse when trying to approach an opponent, which is a big problem against camping characters.