Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

Please, enlighten me on how a how Bowser is better than Charizard

Even though people beat this up already, Bowser has better combo ability on opponents, better Damage Racking ability just from U-Throw > U-Special aerial (confirms from 0% and leads potentially into 42%), his U-Special aerial can pressure shields if Bowser's below opponents on platforms (I found that it does a lot of shield damage if you hit with the multi-hit), he has decent edge-guarding ability with F-Air and B-Air, KO potential with a lot of his moves, a powerful grab command, two shield breaking moves, powerful attacks, invulnerability via some attacks...

But...what does Charizard have that Bowser doesn't just do better? And how many majors or nationals do you see Charizard even get in?

D3 also has by far the worst air mobility in the game. His multiple jumps do allow him to be more evasive than Dorf when playing defensively, but he definitely has it worse when trying to approach an opponent, which is a big problem against camping characters.

D3 does have attacks that do have range as compensation, as well as two AC aerials and some decent out-of-grab combo ability. But overall, he does have a pesky aerial speed that isn't as fast as his recovery's horizontal movement speed.

 

[Amadeus9]

People really underrate just how safe and oppressive bowser can be in neutral... And he's got some of the best grab reward in the game. Big hitbox + poor landing options are all that should ever really be said bad about Bowser.

Jabazard is kinda wonky. I feel like too much he does is based on commitments, outside of his jab and dtilt. And his reward isnt phenomenal, like he throws you and gets 1 hit, then resets to neutral. But Zard's grab is kinda bad so its rough to even grab people.

Like bowser can pivot grab your whiff from practically half stage and then get like 40% off the advantage he gained, zard dthrow fairs you and then whatever.

I like zard A LOT but he has a lot of things against him. Too much of his kit is based around being unsafe/commiting to unsafe things when the design of things like his jab/dtilt/flamethrower would make it seem like he wants to be a safe wall.

And tbh, Zard has more issues landing than bowser does lol.

I do think he is a functional character now though and would love to see some zard action at tournaments, I feel like he has the tools to do a lot, but I also do not think he can contend with Donkey Kong or Bowser for the title of "good/decent heavy", especially when the two of them are actually doing things at events

 

[SaltyKracka]

but what if Ganondorf actually changes up his game plan and strategy overall? We know how people normally get used to using one specific strategy and yet they can also be countered by a person who knows the strategy, but what if someone came up with a far different strategy and utilization for a character instead, that is more effective than the other? That's something that actually should be talked about since characters usually tend to have one sort of strategy that's prominently effective with them, and currently, Ganondorf's strategy (or -ies) are sub-par at best, so what if someone discovers a significantly more effective strategy?

This is actually a far more general concept, which I will go ahead and relabel "what if". Indeed, this whole post is essentially "but what if character X who usually plays like X plays like nebulous but clearly superior Y instead?"

And it's useless. Worse than useless actually. It's speculation without the decency of even being based in concrete reality.

"Oh but what if somebody comes up with a better strategy for the character?" Then they will have come up with a better playstyle, and the character might win more than usual until other players adapt.

Newsflash though, people vary play styles to throw off opponents all the time.

Further newsflash. With the way characters are designed and the extraordinarily rapid information exchange of the Internet, it is unlikely that characters have hidden power levels just waiting to be unlocked by somebody's Guru theorycrafting. As it is now, getting better in Smash 4 is all about execution, prediction, and execution. Not idly wondering "what if".

 

[HeavyLobster]

On one hand, I can agree with some people about Ganondorf (except Salty, who's really just dry at this point), but what if Ganondorf actually changes up his game plan and strategy overall? We know how people normally get used to using one specific strategy and yet they can also be countered by a person who knows the strategy, but what if someone came up with a far different strategy and utilization for a character instead, that is more effective than the other? That's something that actually should be talked about since characters usually tend to have one sort of strategy that's prominently effective with them, and currently, Ganondorf's strategy (or -ies) are sub-par at best, so what if someone discovers a significantly more effective strategy?

Actually, top Ganons do tend to play pretty differently. Kalm plays an aggressive conditioning game, Verm plays very defensively, etc. The character does facilitate different playstyles that can be effective, but even so none of them are magic bullets that will make him rise drastically on any tier list. I doubt very much that Ganon's primary problem is "subpar strategies."

 

[Mr. Johan]

Every time I consider Charizard to be not nearly as good as other heavies, the Nair and Usmash remind me that I can't get that complacent just yet.

Who are the considered best Charizards at the moment? Arkansas's monthly this weekend will have a Charizard named Chuck Nasty attending, and I personally consider him better than Steeler. Maybe everyone can get an idea on how Charizard functions by watching him play.

 

[Browny]

And tbh, Zard has more issues landing than bowser does lol.

When landing, Charizard has;

3 mid-air jumps
2 b-reversible moves that can stop enemies approaching
A burst option GTFO move that covers FD's length

Bowser has;

1 mid-air jump
1 b-reversible move that can stop enemies approaching
Command grab (thats obscenely powerful)

I think I'd rather landing with Charizard than landing with Bowser, Charizard has way more defensive options vs Bowsers high commitment offensive landing options.

 

[Radical Larry]

SaltyKracka Hey, you put in two executions.

People really underrate just how safe and oppressive bowser can be in neutral... And he's got some of the best grab reward in the game. Big hitbox + poor landing options are all that should ever really be said bad about Bowser.

Jabazard is kinda wonky. I feel like too much he does is based on commitments, outside of his jab and dtilt. And his reward isnt phenomenal, like he throws you and gets 1 hit, then resets to neutral. But Zard's grab is kinda bad so its rough to even grab people.

Like bowser can pivot grab your whiff from practically half stage and then get like 40% off the advantage he gained, zard dthrow fairs you and then whatever.

I like zard A LOT but he has a lot of things against him. Too much of his kit is based around being unsafe/commiting to unsafe things when the design of things like his jab/dtilt/flamethrower would make it seem like he wants to be a safe wall.

And tbh, Zard has more issues landing than bowser does lol.

I do think he is a functional character now though and would love to see some zard action at tournaments, I feel like he has the tools to do a lot, but I also do not think he can contend with Donkey Kong or Bowser for the title of "good/decent heavy", especially when the two of them are actually doing things at events

Well, as far as bad things go, Bowser's landing options can be replaced by usage for D-Air or N-Air, the latter of which is probably one of his better aerial options if he can land. He does have a hard time against opponents with disjoints, amazing grabs and grab range, and opponents with very good projectiles and kill moves due to his large body; that's why I believe Link can beat Bowser 60:40, since Bowser may have mobility, but Link's range and overall more dexterity can prove to be something Bowser needs to worry about.

Bowser's CQC and neutral are pretty great, like you said, and he has an amazing grab reward, you got it right about his size and sub-par landing options, but also account that his weight is extremely heavy, so he is easy to combo, and his air speed is just average (Little Mac fast), and he does have poor walking acceleration, which practically makes walking useless.

Just a little tidbit and thought on Bowser, but as for Charizard, as it stands, he and King Dedede are actually probably the worst Super Heavies in the game. Now before you get the pitchforks and torches, just acknowledge that despite Ganondorf seeming to have bad options, he probably has even more representation and even results than both Charizard and Dedede combined. Sure, it's more along the lines of weeklies, locals and sometimes majors, but he has significantly more representation and results. So based on these thoughts, it would be in order:



I believe DK and Bowser are going to remain the two best Super Heavyweights in terms of results and representation, since they have significantly better options than the others, while Ganondorf is the middle man and has the most potential out of the last three, while Charizard and D3 are just lacking behind the others due to the lack of results (as far as I know; if Charizard or Dedede do have better results combined, then oops; just correct me if I'm wrong on it).

Actually, top Ganons do tend to play pretty differently. Kalm plays an aggressive conditioning game, Verm plays very defensively, etc. The character does facilitate different playstyles that can be effective, but even so none of them are magic bullets that will make him rise drastically on any tier list. I doubt very much that Ganon's primary problem is "subpar strategies."

Do top Ganons ever consider utilizing a powerful N-Air as an edge-guarding move or a safe shield poking move against opponents above him on platforms? I'm actually very curious as to how the top Ganons play right now, so that I can adjust my style and tweak it just a bit.

But what is Ganondorf's primary problem outside the obvious bad recovery, sub-par frame data or low mobility answers?

 

[BunbUn129]

SaltyKracka Hey, you put in two executions.



Well, as far as bad things go, Bowser's landing options can be replaced by usage for D-Air or N-Air, the latter of which is probably one of his better aerial options if he can land. He does have a hard time against opponents with disjoints, amazing grabs and grab range, and opponents with very good projectiles and kill moves due to his large body; that's why I believe Link can beat Bowser 60:40, since Bowser may have mobility, but Link's range and overall more dexterity can prove to be something Bowser needs to worry about.

Bowser's CQC and neutral are pretty great, like you said, and he has an amazing grab reward, you got it right about his size and sub-par landing options, but also account that his weight is extremely heavy, so he is easy to combo, and his air speed is just average (Little Mac fast), and he does have poor walking acceleration, which practically makes walking useless.

Just a little tidbit and thought on Bowser, but as for Charizard, as it stands, he and King Dedede are actually probably the worst Super Heavies in the game. Now before you get the pitchforks and torches, just acknowledge that despite Ganondorf seeming to have bad options, he probably has even more representation and even results than both Charizard and Dedede combined. Sure, it's more along the lines of weeklies, locals and sometimes majors, but he has significantly more representation and results. So based on these thoughts, it would be in order:



I believe DK and Bowser are going to remain the two best Super Heavyweights in terms of results and representation, since they have significantly better options than the others, while Ganondorf is the middle man and has the most potential out of the last three, while Charizard and D3 are just lacking behind the others due to the lack of results (as far as I know; if Charizard or Dedede do have better results combined, then oops; just correct me if I'm wrong on it).



Do top Ganons ever consider utilizing a powerful N-Air as an edge-guarding move or a safe shield poking move against opponents above him on platforms? I'm actually very curious as to how the top Ganons play right now, so that I can adjust my style and tweak it just a bit.

But what is Ganondorf's primary problem outside the obvious bad recovery, sub-par frame data or low mobility answers?

Boswer's nair has 20 frames of landing lag, and dair has 40 frames of landing lag. I don't know, but those aren't good landing options in my book.

 

[T4ylor]

Browny Bowser would have 2 jumps if Charizard gets his 3. Charizard only has 1 extra jump.

Edit: Actually, Larry, Dedede has more results than both Ganon and Zard.

 

[Radical Larry]

Boswer's nair has 20 frames of landing lag, and dair has 40 frames of landing lag. I don't know, but those aren't good landing options in my book.

But remember that one covers a huge circle and can potentially hit the AC before he lands, and the other has some super massive KB and damage, and is a decent meteor.

 

[BunbUn129]

But remember that one covers a huge circle and can potentially hit the AC before he lands, and the other has some super massive KB and damage, and is a decent meteor.

The landing hitbox of Boswer's dair deals only 2%. And it's frame 17 and pretty telegraphed. And that's without counting the huge landing lag. Spot-dodging that shouldn't be too hard, and if they have a counter then rip.

 

[Zannabluke]

bowser's safest option for landing is going for the ledge, honestly

 

[BunbUn129]

bowser's safest option for landing is going for the ledge, honestly

That's when you realize your character has pretty bad landing options, lol.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So something regarding tier lists and the results - theory relationship

so which characters have results worse than what their theory implies and which characters have results better than what their theory implies?

If we're going off the last tier list:

Worse:
Better:

It's a simple case of overrated/underrated if you want to get to the gist of it.

Obviously, a lot has changed in the last two patches but (aside from Mewtwo and Marth) a lot of these are still applicable.
To sum up my thoughts:

- Outclassed by a lot of characters that were once below them but are now better thanks to buffs to them/nerfs to top tiers.
- Characters with ho-hum results despite constant talks of their "potential" and "strategic depths."
- Characters whose results collapsed like a circus tent once their star players jumped ship.
- Perpetually overrated.

- Regularly underrated despite consistent results.
- Still have a presence despite regularly being lauded as god awful.
- Biggest winners of the latest buff dumps.
- The rising middle class thanks to nerfs to the top tiers.

 

[S_B]

Except the difficulty lies in getting the grab in the first place. DK runs decently fast and Bowser's pivot grab is massive from what I hear, but still. They're all pretty big targets.

I didn't play a whole lot of Street Fighter, but IIRC Zangief had some terrifying vortexes and just did tons of damage if he got in. I think he had generous invincibility frames to help out too? It seems like such things are borderline mandatory for big + slow fighters to climb to the top.

And that comes back to the unfortunate discussion of "How do we buff heavies in competitive play without overpowering them in casual play?" :\

 

[TheGoodGuava]

E]

Even though people beat this up already, Bowser has better combo ability on opponents, better Damage Racking ability just from U-Throw > U-Special aerial (confirms from 0% and leads potentially into 42%), his U-Special aerial can pressure shields if Bowser's below opponents on platforms (I found that it does a lot of shield damage if you hit with the multi-hit), he has decent edge-guarding ability with F-Air and B-Air, KO potential with a lot of his moves, a powerful grab command, two shield breaking moves, powerful attacks, invulnerability via some attacks...

But...what does Charizard have that Bowser doesn't just do better? And how many majors or nationals do you see Charizard even get in?

dude you wont see charizard in nationals because literally nobody plays Charizard at a high level but like m2k rn
Charizard has better mobility, WAY better offstage game and edgeguarding than Bowser, a lot better of a projectile (literally just an upgraded version), his mixup game is a LOT better than Bowser's, his attack range is generally equal, same with ko power, he has a better combo breaker, better landing options with 2 midair jumps, generally less landing lag, multiple b reversable moves, super armor moves, and a move that sends him all the way across the screen. What else do you want? Literally the only things Bowser has over Charizard is his upthrow kill confirm (which doesn't even work right with rage which characters like Bowser build up a lot), his command grab, and his playerbase.

 

[C0rvus]

Duck Hunt should definitely be in the other list. His theory is decidedly NOT good, but his results belie that of a perceived bottom 10 character.

Also, Zard is a decidedly better character than Ganondorf, don't get it twisted. His neutral exists for sure. He has buttons to press, albeit carefully, and his jab is the best in the game, full stop. His disadvantage and recovery are also miles better. If his reward was better than I'd have no qualms about considering him better than even Bowser. Or even if I just saw one of his mains make a splash of any kind. I neeeeeever see Charizard.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Also, Zard is a decidedly better character than Ganondorf, don't get it twisted. His neutral exists for sure. He has buttons to press, albeit carefully, and his jab is the best in the game, full stop. His disadvantage and recovery are also miles better. If his reward was better than I'd have no qualms about considering him better than even Bowser. Or even if I just saw one of his mains make a splash of any kind. I neeeeeever see Charizard.

This. Charizard is still one of the worst represented characters in the game and, unfortunately, I really don't see that changing unless a top level player gets a wild hare up their *** and decides to take him on as a secondary. He's definitely better now but he still has a lot of atrocious match ups with the top/high tiers that scare people away from picking him up.

 

[adom4]

Duck Hunt should definitely be in the other list. His theory is decidedly NOT good, but his results belie that of a perceived bottom 10 character.

Also, Zard is a decidedly better character than Ganondorf, don't get it twisted. His neutral exists for sure. He has buttons to press, albeit carefully, and his jab is the best in the game, full stop. His disadvantage and recovery are also miles better. If his reward was better than I'd have no qualms about considering him better than even Bowser. Or even if I just saw one of his mains make a splash of any kind. I neeeeeever see Charizard.

His disadvantage isn't really that much better than Ganondorf's, if at all.
Ganon isn't nearly as wide as Zard & has better combo breakers (Though i don't know how much his air speed buff helped his disadvantaged state).
Zard is def a better character though, no question about that.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

His disadvantage isn't really that much better than Ganondorf's, if at all.
Ganon isn't nearly as wide as Zard & has better combo breakers (Though i don't know how much his air speed buff helped his disadvantaged state).
Zard is def a better character though, no question about that.

Ganondorf's combo breaker is def not better than Zard's, frame 6 upair vs frame 4 super armor up b with a massive hitbox
Zard also has a lot better burst movement, a lot less gimpable recovery, multiple midair jumps, and his nair for covering his landings, if it wasn't for his massive hurtbox size I would say Zard has one of the better disadvantages

 

[Rizen]

Ganon's a weird character to rank. He seems to lose to everyone not a balloon pokemon and gets shut down completely but if he can make 4 or 5 reads he'll destroy you. In that sense he is the worst heavy weight but can be scary as hell.

 

[adom4]

Ganondorf's combo breaker is def not better than Zard's, frame 6 upair vs frame 4 super armor up b with a massive hitbox
Zard also has a lot better burst movement, a lot less gimpable recovery, multiple midair jumps, and his nair for covering his landings, if it wasn't for his massive hurtbox size I would say Zard has one of the better disadvantages

Up-B sounds pretty risky though, for obvious reasons.

Ganon's a weird character to rank. He seems to lose to everyone not a balloon pokemon and gets shut down completely but if he can make 4 or 5 reads he'll destroy you. In that sense he is the worst heavy weight but can be scary as hell.

Ganon can do decently against characters that don't have too many safe options against him, can't threaten him offstage well or against characters that get outranged hard.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'd argue that characters like Ganon and Dedede are more oppressive to lower level players which is why they both get better results and are more popular. There's just something utterly satisfying about mercilessly destroying someone with either character and I don't think Charizard offers that as much. Like Ryu, Charizard is capable of it but there's more of a learning curve to it. Meanwhile, Dedede and Ganon have attacks that can kill and break shields with a single attack and that just adds to the almost sadistic joy that comes from absolutely steamrolling someone even if you are fully aware that they're significantly worse than you to begin with. The same argument could definitely be made for Little Mac too: kind of sucks in the grand scheme of things but allows you to mushroom stamp people worse than you with less effort.

 

[adom4]

I'd argue that characters like Ganon and Dedede are more oppressive to lower level players which is why they both get better results and are more popular. There's just something utterly satisfying about mercilessly destroying someone with either character and I don't think Charizard offers that as much. Charizard is capable of it but there's more of a learning curve to it. Meanwhile, Dedede and Ganon have attacks that can kill and break shields with a single attack and that just adds to the almost sadistic joy that comes from absolutely steamrolling someone even if you are fully aware that they're significantly worse than you to begin with. The same argument could definitely be made for Little Mac too: kind of sucks in the grand scheme of things but allows you to mushroom stamp people worse than you with less effort.

I'd say it's more because Zard still has a bad stigma because of how bad he was before & the fact that he's kind of awkward to play.
Hell i thought he was pretty ok even in 1.1.4, he really needs more rep.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's disadvantaged state is pretty bad, Sure he has fly and rocksmash. But Up-b is very risky and rocksmash is punishable even when it armors a move.
The fact that zard's air accel and airspeed are mediocre doesn't help his disadvantage one bit.
Nair, bair, and flamethrower do help landing. But they are not ideal.
Flare blitz can at least get us to edge reliably tho.
Don't get me wrong his disadvantaged state is nowhere near as bad as back in vanilla sm4sh, but it still isn't good.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think what's hurting Zard's representation is that there's not a lot of perceived advantages to playing him over Bowser and DK. Wether or not that's true I couldn't say for sure, but at the moment I'm leaning towards yes...

Honestly, they're all pretty similar. They run fast, hit hard, weigh a ton, are combo food, and can fairly easily kill from grabs. Which one you pick probably comes down to some minor quirks or gimmick. Viability wins out over Zard's Jab and stuff, I suppose.

 

[Big-Cat]

This^
Both Charizard and DK have a TON of invincibility/intangibility, not sure about Bowser and Dorf as far as I know only has Warlock Punch
Arguably the two best super heavyweights have a lot more super armor than the two lower tier ones, I doubt this is a coincidence

Bowser's arms are essentially beefy swords for all his tilts and jabs. Then there's the intangibility on USmash shell and leg day on FSmash. There's also intangibility on the head for UAir.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I will say that I think Charizard would be a lot scarier if flare blitz wasn't so damn easy to punish. If it did more shield damage, it would be a lot more intimidating. It seems like in most cases you can just shield, wait for him to flop on his back, and then follow up. For example, with Wii Fit, it's pretty much a free sun salutation and I think that's kind of ridiculous, not to mention it can be stopped by "solid" projectiles like Villager's lloid and Bowser Jr's mecha-koopa. I know it's supposed to be a gambit move but it seems to too heavily weigh on Charizard than his opponent.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I will say that I think Charizard would be a lot scarier if flare blitz wasn't so damn easy to punish. If it did more shield damage, it would be a lot more intimidating. It seems like in most cases you can just shield, wait for him to flop on his back, and then follow up. For example, with Wii Fit, it's pretty much a free sun salutation and I think that's kind of ridiculous, not to mention it can be stopped by "solid" projectiles like Villager's lloid and Bowser Jr's mecha-koopa. I know it's supposed to be a gambit move but it seems to too heavily weigh on Charizard than his opponent.

This is because Flare Blitz is in fact very bad and AFAICT good Charizards focus on the other aspects of his kit.

 

[Jalil]

I don't think megaman should be in the "rising mid tiers thanks to nerfed top tiers group". The sheik and mario mu is still horrible and he still loses to fox. Zss,rosa and sonic were never problems.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

The fact you can't tech the shield bounce from flare blitz destroys any grounded use that isn't a dumb read there's no logic in the move being THAT unsafe given how other characters have moves similar but much safer and much greater reward. To fix flare blitz giving you the ability to tech a whiffed flare blitz would make it significantly more useful with added shield stun.

 

[Y2Kay]

Charizard's body isn't as large as it seems. Both the tail and wings are intangible.

I thing calling his hurt box "enormous!" doesn't give him enough credit.

 

[Wintermelon43]

SaltyKracka Hey, you put in two executions.



Well, as far as bad things go, Bowser's landing options can be replaced by usage for D-Air or N-Air, the latter of which is probably one of his better aerial options if he can land. He does have a hard time against opponents with disjoints, amazing grabs and grab range, and opponents with very good projectiles and kill moves due to his large body; that's why I believe Link can beat Bowser 60:40, since Bowser may have mobility, but Link's range and overall more dexterity can prove to be something Bowser needs to worry about.

Bowser's CQC and neutral are pretty great, like you said, and he has an amazing grab reward, you got it right about his size and sub-par landing options, but also account that his weight is extremely heavy, so he is easy to combo, and his air speed is just average (Little Mac fast), and he does have poor walking acceleration, which practically makes walking useless.

Just a little tidbit and thought on Bowser, but as for Charizard, as it stands, he and King Dedede are actually probably the worst Super Heavies in the game. Now before you get the pitchforks and torches, just acknowledge that despite Ganondorf seeming to have bad options, he probably has even more representation and even results than both Charizard and Dedede combined. Sure, it's more along the lines of weeklies, locals and sometimes majors, but he has significantly more representation and results. So based on these thoughts, it would be in order:



I believe DK and Bowser are going to remain the two best Super Heavyweights in terms of results and representation, since they have significantly better options than the others, while Ganondorf is the middle man and has the most potential out of the last three, while Charizard and D3 are just lacking behind the others due to the lack of results (as far as I know; if Charizard or Dedede do have better results combined, then oops; just correct me if I'm wrong on it).



Do top Ganons ever consider utilizing a powerful N-Air as an edge-guarding move or a safe shield poking move against opponents above him on platforms? I'm actually very curious as to how the top Ganons play right now, so that I can adjust my style and tweak it just a bit.

But what is Ganondorf's primary problem outside the obvious bad recovery, sub-par frame data or low mobility answers?

We already know your posts ar trolling larry. Please stop with this. Dedede has better results than Ganon and Zard, and Ganon's theory and matchup spread is too crap for him to be better than Zard.

 

[Radical Larry]

We already know your posts ar trolling larry. Please stop with this. Dedede has better results than Ganon and Zard, and Ganon's theory and matchup spread is too crap for him to be better than Zard.

Call-out posts are just as trolling as you believe my posts are trolling, but thanks for correcting me at least. This is as polite as I can make my response to it be. As far as I knew, Ganon had better results, but you could have easily just kindly said that it wasn't true, and I'd have been alright with that.

 

[Fatmanonice]

This is because Flare Blitz is in fact very bad and AFAICT good Charizards focus on the other aspects of his kit.

But what I'm getting at is that, when you think about most of the heavies in the game, they have at least one fairly reliable shield breaking move (meaning if you shield it, it's almost guaranteed to break) or at least one that puts on a ton of shield pressure:

SB- Shield Break, SP: shield pressure

- SB: Bowser Bomb, SP: fair, bair, fsmash, dtilt
- SP: abandon ship, ban hammer, dair, dtilt, bair
- SB: Super Dedede jump, fsmash, jet hammer SP: pointblank gordo, dsmash
- SB: ground pound, head butt SP: giant punch, spinning kong, fsmash
SB: utilt, wizard kick (airborne), warlock punch SP: dair, fair, fsmash, dtilt, usmash
: Take your pick
: SB: ground pound SP: dair

You also have to consider the heavies that get rewards off of shields outside of shield grabs:

- flying slam
- flame choke
- focus attack
- chomp
-slurp

Yes, I'm fully aware that has other tools but it's not like he's like who would probably be borderline broken with better shield breaking/shield pressure options. I just think it would level the playing field and help him with his more unfavorable match ups. With a lot of heavies, the threat of shield breaks is always there but it really doesn't exist with Charizard aside from maybe a pointblank rock smash.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

No Ganon does not have better results than D3, Larry. Fullstop. Do you not remember @Thinkaman's chart about placement/usage? D3's a godhonest scrub killer with high placements in smaller tournaments and nontrivial upper placements at nationals (averaging in the top 100 range?)

As a character, I honestly don't know how to feel about Ganon in relation to anybody, even the other heavies. I'm half-tempted to pick him up myself whenever I get back from my hiatus because I'm super curious.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Super heavyweight Tierlist

S: DK
A: Charizard, Bowser
C: DDD
F: Ganon

but in all seriousness, who actually is the second best super heavyweight is kinda debatable rn between Charizard and Bowser and I'm sorta leaning more towards Zard
Everything he does is literally just better than what Bowser can do, the only thing Bowser has over him is an upthrow kill confirm that barely ever works thanks to heavies building rage so fast and a command grab

 

[Radical Larry]

No Ganon does not have better results than D3, Larry. Fullstop. Do you not remember @Thinkaman's chart about placement/usage? D3's a godhonest scrub killer with high placements in smaller tournaments and nontrivial upper placements at nationals (averaging in the top 100 range?)

As a character, I honestly don't know how to feel about Ganon in relation to anybody, even the other heavies. I'm half-tempted to pick him up myself whenever I get back from my hiatus because I'm super curious.

Smooth Criminal

I probably don't remember Thinkaman's chart about placement and usage because I haven't seen it yet. Where can I find it?

 

[C0rvus]

This question was posed in a couple places, but who can punish Bayo's divekick on shield? I'm pretty sure it can be done by characters with not-bad jump squat and a good up air, like Wii Fit or Cloud. Of course, committing to using a midair special means 19 frames of landing lag (she can kinda mix up her landing or go to the ledge but that's usually going to be a punish or at least stage taken.)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

This question was posed in a couple places, but who can punish Bayo's divekick on shield? I'm pretty sure it can be done by characters with not-bad jump squat and a good up air, like Wii Fit or Cloud. Of course, committing to using a midair special means 19 frames of landing lag (she can kinda mix up her landing or go to the ledge but that's usually going to be a punish or at least stage taken.)

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't Charizard punish it with Fly oos? If he can that's going to give him a lot better bayo matchup than other super heavies because like, killing her at like 80 because she used one of her best tools is def worth noting