Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[S_B]

Super heavyweight Tierlist

S: DK
A: Charizard, Bowser
C: DDD
F: Ganon

but in all seriousness, who actually is the second best super heavyweight is kinda debatable rn between Charizard and Bowser and I'm sorta leaning more towards Zard
Everything he does is literally just better than what Bowser can do, the only thing Bowser has over him is an upthrow kill confirm that barely ever works thanks to heavies building rage so fast and a command grab

Until we see some Zards actually place...well, anywhere (other than M2K's pocket), I lean toward Bowser.

I've not seen any Zards do something as impressive as beat JohnNumbers' WFT in GF or nearly take a game off of Anti's ZSS (which is still Bowser's worst or 2nd worst matchup, if you count Bayo cheese):

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Until we see some Zards actually place...well, anywhere (other than M2K's pocket), I lean toward Bowser.

I've not seen any Zards do something as impressive as beat JohnNumbers' WFT in GF or nearly take a game off of Anti's ZSS (which is still Bowser's worst or 2nd worst matchup, if you count Bayo cheese):

You literally just said the player is good, not the character

 

[S_B]

You literally just said the player is good, not the character

If you're referring to M2K's pocket, he used it to beat a few players here and there, including Ryo's Ganon (he then lost to Ryo's Lucina, though), but I'm taking about Zard mains that get consistently good results.

We have Bowser mains that do that. Where are the Zard mains?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If you're referring to M2K's pocket, he used it to beat a few players here and there, including Ryo's Ganon (he then lost to Ryo's Lucina, though), but I'm taking about Zard mains that get consistently good results.

We have Bowser mains that do that. Where are the Zard mains?

The Zard mains don't exist, m2k is literally the only notable Zard player and its kept in the very bottom of his extremely deep pockets

 

[S_B]

The Zard mains don't exist, m2k is literally the only notable Zard player and its kept in the very bottom of his extremely deep pockets

Oh, you were agreeing with me, then. My mistake.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Oh, you were agreeing with me, then. My mistake.

Yeh
In theory Charizard is better
In practice Bowser is better because there's literally 1 Charizard POCKET

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This. Charizard is still one of the worst represented characters in the game and, unfortunately, I really don't see that changing unless a top level player gets a wild hare up their *** and decides to take him on as a secondary. He's definitely better now but he still has a lot of atrocious match ups with the top/high tiers that scare people away from picking him up.

His thin hope in that, is that on paper he does decently against Bayonetta. Actually saw it tried out at Pound and it looked at least doable with practice. When in Bayo's combos mash Up B like a madman. There was a bit the announcers pointed out about his Side B actually being able to punish a Bayo coming down with lag due to using her specials. Wings not having hurtboxes can also screw over Bayo's aiming with her combos a bit.

Its all only on paper atm though.

 

[SaltyKracka]

snop

Only addressing the things I'm sure about, but Airborne Wizkick doesn't actually reliably break shields. If it did, it would be a revolution and would actually make the thing consistently worth the risk of using it.

Also, Ganon has to risk Flame Choke and it's slow, laggy ass against shields because he has a bottom 3 grab. Like, people say Mewtwo isn't all that due to having a bad grab, but compared to Ganondorf he has all the grab in the game. Charizard doesn't need to worry about that, because he has an actual worthwhile grab and options out of it too.

Nothing Ganondorf has is actual consistent shield pressure due to all the mentioned options being laggy and punishable, but Dsmash especially isn't actually usable for that.

 

[Dre89]

I feel they should nerf ding dong though. As seen at Pound, it being 100% (no joke) of all DK's kills is very stale and redundant. Nerf the power of ding dong and improve the landing lag of his aerials or something. If Bowser doesn't get to keep a ding dong that's less effective than DK's due to poor airspeed, why should DK? I mean, it can still work, not just killing as early as 60 guaranteed as we watch DK fish for grabs all day.

Bowser's grab kill should be worse than DK's because it's much easier for him to get grabs thanks to his massive dashgrab.

He's also much better at killing than DK outside of grabs. Bowser can realistically kill you at 90-100% with tilt-speed options. If DK misses the grab window he won't normally kill someone until around %120.

Bowser is just considered worse because he doesn't have the same quality of rep. He's just an easier version of DK with better kill options and disadvantage, but worse off-stage.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

His thin hope in that, is that on paper he does decently against Bayonetta. Actually saw it tried out at Pound and it looked at least doable with practice. When in Bayo's combos mash Up B like a madman. There was a bit the announcers pointed out about his Side B actually being able to punish a Bayo coming down with lag due to using her specials. Wings not having hurtboxes can also screw over Bayo's aiming with her combos a bit.

Its all only on paper atm though.

on paper the Bayo matchup is sorta in his favor, Charizard kinda kills her entire neutral and edgeguards her well too afterwards
like, flamethrower kinda just ruins this entire neutral for Bayo and since he is more of a grappler than anything he doesn't really have to worry about Witch Time. He can also punish Witch Twist oos and dABK with fly which kills her at like 90% so there goes a lot more of her options

 

[Dre89]

Bowser is definitely better than Charizard lol.

Charizard doesn't have the reward to compensate for constantly losing neutral to top tiers line DK and Bowser do.

Bowser's neutral is better than DK's. People just think DK is better because he has mix up his options more. Bowser has the dash attack/grab 50/50 which removes a lot of the need for mix ups and complex movement. He does what DK does but with much less work.

DK may kill earlier off a grab but Bowser's grab game is better overall because it's way easier for him to get grabs. He has the same massive pivot grab but also a massive dashgrab too.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Honestly, if Zard was given the same sort of buffs that Mewtwo's got (ie: make him much closer to how he's depicted in actual Pokemon media), he'd probably be right in alongside Mewtwo in the high tier.

Let us remember that, as far as Pokemon media goes, Charizard has plenty of missed points that would make him much more threatening in Smash;

• Charizard's Speed stat is only 30 points behind Mewtwo's. He really should be on par with Mewtwo in terms of speed, if not only slightly slower.
  
  
• Charizard can fly at altitudes of 4,600 feet into the air (or 1,400 metres). Again, with abilities like that, he really should be good at air-fighting. Not to mention he's a friggin' Flying-type.
  
  
• Mega Charizard X's Attack stat is 130, so Dragon Rush should probably do more damage.

Really, apply the logic of Mewtwo's buffs to Charizard and it basically is a similar picture.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Bowser is definitely better than Charizard lol

Charizard doesn't have the reward for constantly losing neutral to top tiers line DK and Bowser do.

Bowser's neutral is better than DK's. People just think DK is better because he has mix up his options more. Bowser has the dash attack/grab 50/50 which removes a lot of the need for mix ups and complex movement. He does what DK does but with much less work..

Dude there is so much wrong with this entire thing

Charizard gets a huge reward for building rage, I would say a lot more than Bowser because of the difference between their grab kill confirms. Bowser almost loses his kill confirm off of grabs because of rage, meanwhile Charizard's grab confirm is just an upthrow that at max rage kills even the heaviest characters at like 100, even less with platforms. He also has his fthrow, and backthrow both of which kill at early percents with rage, fthrow in particular because of the BKB.

Charizards neutral is also arguably better than Bowsers. He has signifigantly better mobility and he has essentially the same spacing tools as Bowser with some of them actually being better, flamethrower in particular. He also has a much stronger edge game than Bowser with his nair having a much better angle for edguarding, and fair coming out faster, multiple jumps for chasing offstage, flamethrower, and dsmash. He also has rock smash to cover the ledge against a lot of characters. His mix-up potential is also a lot better because he generally has less landing lag on all of his moves. His disadvantage is also MUCH better than Bowsers. A harder to gimp recovery, good burst movement, better landing options, and two super armor moves is great compared to Bowser's up special.

 

[Dre89]

Dude there is so much wrong with this entire thing

Charizard gets a huge reward for building rage, I would say a lot more than Bowser because of the difference between their grab kill confirms. Bowser almost loses his kill confirm off of grabs because of rage, meanwhile Charizard's grab confirm is just an upthrow that at max rage kills even the heaviest characters at like 100, even less with platforms. He also has his fthrow, and backthrow both of which kill at early percents with rage, fthrow in particular because of the BKB.

Charizards neutral is also arguably better than Bowsers. He has signifigantly better mobility and he has essentially the same spacing tools as Bowser with some of them actually being better, flamethrower in particular. He also has a much stronger edge game than Bowser with his nair having a much better angle for edguarding, and fair coming out faster, multiple jumps for chasing offstage, flamethrower, and dsmash. He also has rock smash to cover the ledge against a lot of characters. His mix-up potential is also a lot better because he generally has less landing lag on all of his moves. His disadvantage is also MUCH better than Bowsers. A harder to gimp recovery, good burst movement, better landing options, and two super armor moves is great compared to Bowser's up special.

If Bowser has rage he can kill with bthrow or kill at 60-70% with frame 9 bair or frame 11 downb by which can link from jab.

Again, you don't need mix ups that much when you're Bowser because your jab is a spacing tool, and spaced dash grab/attack covers every option they have between them. Charizard needs to mix it up more to get the same reward because he doesn't have good forward burst that ignores shields.

 

[SvartWolf]

• Charizard's Speed stat is only 30 points behind Mewtwo's. He really should be on par with Mewtwo in terms of speed, if not only slightly slower.
  
  
• .

just nipticking and not relevant to the thread, but do you realize that 30 base speed difference is actually a lot? it's even more telling when you say 100 and 130.
If we go for tiering alone, vanilla charizard isn't exactly a star in pokemon.

(inb4 ganondorf only losing MU should be link)

 

[S_B]

If Bowser has rage he can kill with bthrow or kill at 60-70% with frame 9 bair or frame 11 downb by which can link from jab.

Again, you don't need mix ups that much when you're Bowser because your jab is a spacing tool, and spaced dash grab/attack covers every option they have between them. Charizard needs to mix it up more to get the same reward because he doesn't have good forward burst that ignores shields.

First of all, do you have any video evidence of Bowser's dash grab being notably better than DK's?

I can't speak on the range of each one, but I know for a fact that all of DK's grabs have less endlag than Bowser's.

Also, DK's combo game out of grabs is pretty amazing.

Second...

Bowser has the dash attack/grab 50/50 which removes a lot of the need for mix ups and complex movement.

I'm not sure what you think 50/50 means here, but I assure you that NO ONE has one between attacking and grabbing because spotdodge beats both of them (or if Bowser has one, so does the entire cast).

Third...

If Bowser has rage he can kill with bthrow or kill at 60-70% with frame 9 bair or frame 11 downb by which can link from jab.

For starters, the Bair only works at the ledge and only on light characters that are usually also fastfallers, and only of the opponent doesn't DI properly to avoid it.

Second, down+B doesn't link from jab. It can be a mixup, but it certainly doesn't LINK as a true combo or anything of the sort. It's very possible to shield and roll, and many characters can jump before landing after jab1.

Again, you don't need mix ups that much when you're Bowser because your jab is a spacing tool, and spaced dash grab/attack covers every option they have between them.

Yes, you certainly DO still need mixups, and spaced dash grab/attack loses horrendously to spot dodges, like it does for every character...

 

[Dre89]

First of all, do you have any video evidence of Bowser's dash grab being notably better than DK's?

I can't speak on the range of each one, but I know for a fact that all of DK's grabs have less endlag than Bowser's.

Also, DK's combo game out of grabs is pretty amazing.

Second...



I'm not sure what you think 50/50 means here, but I assure you that NO ONE has one between attacking and grabbing because spotdodge beats both of them (or if Bowser has one, so does the entire cast).

Bowser's dashgrab has much longer range, which is the most important thing. Endlag isn't relevant if you don't miss, and it's not like a tether where you're going to eat an fsmash if you miss.

And fair call on spotdodging, I forgot about that.

 

[Nobie]

Didn't Charizard get a gang of buffs recently? That has to make people reconsider what Charizard is capable of, especially when people are referring mainly to pre-1.1.5 matches as examples.

 

[S_B]

Bowser's dashgrab has much longer range, which is the most important thing

Longer range doesn't mean anything unless we're literally talking about a tether, and even Bowser's boost grab doesn't magically invalidate the hitboxes between him and his opponent as he tries to grab.

Even Bowser's pivot grab (which has great range) can be grabbed. I've had Sheik grab Bower's hand as it's stretching out behind him and Sheik got the grab instead of me.

Endlag isn't relevant if you don't miss, and it's not like a tether where you're going to eat an fsmash if you miss.

In a perfect world, endlag is irrelevant, but the endlag on all of Bowser's grabs is terrible:
Grab / Active Frames of Grab / FAF after grab
Standing Grab 9-10 39
Dash Grab 10-11 48
Pivot Grab 11-12 46

DK's are a great deal better:
Standing Grab 8-9 31
Dash Grab 10-11 39
Pivot Grab 11-12 37

As for eating an Fsmash, if the character is fast enough, yeah, it'll happen on a whiffed grab. :\

I definitely think DK and Bowser are the two best heavies, but I'd say DK is still better, just off of results alone, but also because his airspeed just gives him much better options and his grab reward is still pretty amazing.

His offstage game is also WORLDS better than Bowser's, mainly thanks to that Bair...

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

just nipticking and not relevant to the thread, but do you realize that 30 base speed difference is actually a lot? it's even more telling when you say 100 and 130.
If we go for tiering alone, vanilla charizard isn't exactly a star in pokemon.

(inb4 ganondorf only losing MU should be link)

The speed really isn't Charizard's main problem in Pokemon; it's that he has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, which is a very common entry hazard to use; meaning you can't reliably switch him in without getting half his health taken off immediately. If speed was an issue, Mega Charizard X wouldn't be nearly as common, since he only takes 2x damage from them and has the same speed as Charizard.

 

[S_B]

And just so I'm clear Dre89 , I think DK excels in the air while Bowser excels on the ground, which is what varies their playstyles mostly.

Zard is kind of an in-between of both of them, as he wants to zone on the ground and in the air (his ftilt is essentially a weaker bair on the ground, in terms of raw range), and I feel like the real key is that he doesn't want to get in as often as DK/Bowser do because he has better zoning tools all around (flamethrower is awesome and ftilt has so much range...).

 

[ARISTOS]

The speed really isn't Charizard's main problem in Pokemon; it's that he has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, which is a very common entry hazard to use; meaning you can't reliably switch him in without getting half his health taken off immediately. If speed was an issue, Mega Charizard X wouldn't be nearly as common, since he only takes 2x damage from them and has the same speed as Charizard.

Charizard would still be pretty mediocre w/o rocks- Zard X has Tough Claws+High mixed stats which allows him to hit like a truck. Normal Zard doesn't have all that and 100 base speed isn't fast anymore.

is probably much better than results would have him at, b/c at the moment no one plays the character. I think there are a lot of decent tools though.

He's mainly limited by his atrocious air speed (Mobility is god) and being a big target.

 

[Amadeus9]

I could see zard having strong potential as a counterpick character, he can be hell to deal with if you don't know what to do against him

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's air speed isn't atrocious anymore, tho. Nowadays is just bad.

I mean it is faster than pikachu's, palutena's and link's air speed. The main issue is that his air accel is still bad.

Plus he is shorter than mario when standing still... he is more of a wide target than a big target.

 

[SvartWolf]

The speed really isn't Charizard's main problem in Pokemon; it's that he has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, which is a very common entry hazard to use; meaning you can't reliably switch him in without getting half his health taken off immediately. If speed was an issue, Mega Charizard X wouldn't be nearly as common, since he only takes 2x damage from them and has the same speed as Charizard.

Yeah, speed wasn't his issue, but wasn't an incredible strength either 100 speed tier isnt bad, but isn't exactly the greatest. The reason why MCharizardX is actually good is because its focus on physical attack can make dragon dance work (making his only decent speed actually scary), not because he have less SR weakness. Plus, Volcarona and talonflame also have x4 SR weakness, and they aren't NU.

Still, if we go by pokemon stats alone, charizard have less physical defense and hp than mewtwo... (and mewtwo special defense isnt bad)

 

[FullMoon]

If they had to make the Pokémon as strong as they are in the Pokémon games themselves then we'd have Pikachu in bottom tier and we'd have Mewtwo banned by now while also discussing whether we should ban Greninja or not =V

 

[PJB]

Jiggs would be pretty much the same spot though lol

 

[Y2Kay]

Well, according to the Pokedex.....

"Greninja creates throwing stars out of compressed water. When it spins them and throws them at high speed, these stars can split metal in two."

Pokemon are straight killas in the canon pokemon games. They'd all be broken in their natural form.

Jiggs would be pretty much the same spot though lol

According to the pokedex.......

"When Jigglypuff sings, it never pauses to breathe. If it is in a battle against an opponent that does not easily fall asleep, Jigglypuff cannot breathe, endangering its life"

Yeah he still sucks.

 

[FullMoon]

Funny thing is that we technically already have Mega Lucario banned too.

 

[sedrf]

majors this weekend:
https://smash.gg/tournament/gums-07/details GUMS07 featuring Marss
https://smash.gg/tournament/tgc-7-1 TGC07 ft esam,mvd, and other texas players
any others?

 

[Nysyr]

While this video is mostly correct, it fails to mention how much quicker our auditory reaction times are than our visual ones. (Look for my youtube comment) For example, my auditory RT is on average 115ms faster (~7 frames!) than my visual RT. Additionally, I'd be willing to bet the Smash4 auditory cues tend to happen significantly quicker than the first recognizable visual ones, further distancing the two from one another practically speaking.

I find their average incredibly hard to believe lol. Its probably closer to 180, which I can get consistently. Average is probably 180ms for Visual, and 90ms for Auditory.

 

[Rizen]

Flare blitz being punishable isn't its issue since it shouldn't be thrown out like that in the first place. It's a great punisher move and recovery but easily reacted to. The big issue I have with FB is the length; you use it and miss and Char is way offstage. As weird as this sounds, FB would be better shortened to 1/2-2/3 the distance.

PS
I casually 2nd Charizard and several other characters.

 

[Muster]

The speed really isn't Charizard's main problem in Pokemon; it's that he has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, which is a very common entry hazard to use; meaning you can't reliably switch him in without getting half his health taken off immediately. If speed was an issue, Mega Charizard X wouldn't be nearly as common, since he only takes 2x damage from them and has the same speed as Charizard.

Don't you need to have already switched charizard in and mega evolved him to only take 2X damage from stones? the use of the less damage from stealth rock seems pretty niche at best.
Flare blitz should deal less recoil damage and charizard's double jumps should be better and more than 2

I find their average incredibly hard to believe lol. Its probably closer to 180, which I can get consistently. Average is probably 180ms for Visual, and 90ms for Auditory.

This is an interesting fact, as me and my friend were talking long ago on why it's so easy to react to WFT's smash attacks, wii fit trainer and now bayonetta (is there any others?I may be forgetting) have easy to tell audio cues for when they use their smash attacks, making them easier to react to.

 

[C0rvus]

This is an interesting fact, as me and my friend were talking long ago on why it's so easy to react to WFT's smash attacks, wii fit trainer and now bayonetta (is there any others?I may be forgetting) have easy to tell audio cues for when they use their smash attacks, making them easier to react to.

On the same token, Bowser Jr's air dodge makes a very distinct sound, which I think makes it particularly easy to punish.

 

[Greward]

Bowser is definitely better than Charizard lol.

Charizard doesn't have the reward to compensate for constantly losing neutral to top tiers line DK and Bowser do.

Bowser's neutral is better than DK's. People just think DK is better because he has mix up his options more. Bowser has the dash attack/grab 50/50 which removes a lot of the need for mix ups and complex movement. He does what DK does but with much less work.

DK may kill earlier off a grab but Bowser's grab game is better overall because it's way easier for him to get grabs. He has the same massive pivot grab but also a massive dashgrab too.

Uhhh

Bowser main problem is the lack of useful aerials. Fair is decent at best, all the other are for hard reads. He has no reliable ways to land or protect himself in the air.
I'm not saying DK has a good time landing but bowser suffers x10 more when he's in the air. He's a lessened Little Mac basically.

Bowser has a very footsie based neutral game and he can only play the neutral by controling space and hoping for a read when they get close or a read on the defensive options.

Bowser has an even worse disadvantage state and a more lackluster and usually just plain weaker neutral than DK. However, he gets stronger kill power and more rage-abusing tools.

The 50/50 you say is not a 50/50 at all, however, any smart player will protect himself against grab if playing against bowser, dash attack is just a frame 10? (out of memory, it's between 9-12) very risky move that doesn't lead into anything guaranteed that does 12%. This is not the best trade for a read in neutral for a character like Bowser, so it's mostly just a zonebreaker tool.

As a Bowser player myself I believe that Bowser is very underestimated atm, but he's not better than DK.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Charizard right now basically has Pikachu's mobility specs except for worse air acceleration, though very critically without Quick Attack. He's designed as a faster, smaller, weaker heavy when compared to Bowser and DK, but unfortunately he's not meaningfully safer or better at resetting to neutral to compensate for being less powerful. Right now he needs a couple of frames of endlag shaved off of Fair, Nair, and Ftilt to help him out here. He's not far from being a good character, but those buffs in particular would help him greatly.

 

[PK Gaming]

Does anyone have high level footage of 1.15 Charizard? I want to see the new and improved fire lizard in action.

 

[BananaBake]

Does anyone have high level footage of 1.15 Charizard? I want to see the new and improved fire lizard in action.

M2K and Ryo did an April Fool's day set with a bunch of stupid things, but the Charizard VS Ganon part is legit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK8qiBebeCU

 

[S_B]

Does anyone have high level footage of 1.15 Charizard? I want to see the new and improved fire lizard in action.

Also:

 

[Browny]

If we're going off the last tier list:

Worse:
Better:

It's a simple case of overrated/underrated if you want to get to the gist of it.

Obviously, a lot has changed in the last two patches but (aside from Mewtwo and Marth) a lot of these are still applicable.
To sum up my thoughts:

- Outclassed by a lot of characters that were once below them but are now better thanks to buffs to them/nerfs to top tiers.
- Characters with ho-hum results despite constant talks of their "potential" and "strategic depths."
- Characters whose results collapsed like a circus tent once their star players jumped ship.
- Perpetually overrated.

- Regularly underrated despite consistent results.
- Still have a presence despite regularly being lauded as god awful.
- Biggest winners of the latest buff dumps.
- The rising middle class thanks to nerfs to the top tiers.

I know others have already said it but you didn't really acknowledge it. Duck Hunt has way better results than his theory would suggest and outperforms somewhere like 1/3 of the cast.