Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[BunbUn129]

So taking a look at the gravity values and falling speeds between Melee and Smash 4, and I noticed a few interesting things:

- has a 0.19 gravity and 2.05 fall speed, and is 0.18 with a 1.85 fall speed. OTOH, has a lower 0.17 gravity value, but with a much higher 3.1 fall speed.

- is 0.13 with a 1.8 fall speed, while has the same gravity value but a higher 2.8 fall speed.

-is 0.12 with a 1.6 fall speed, while has the same gravity value but a 2.15 fall speed.

- share a 0.114 gravity; has a 2.4 fall speed, and has a 1.8 fall speed.

- is 0.11 with a 1.39 fall speed; shares the same gravity with a higher 1.9 fall speed.

Anyway, my question: what is the exact relationship between gravity and knockback in all the games?

All I really know is that they changed the relationship between these two values between Melee and Brawl.

 

[Lavani]

Anyway, my question: what is the exact relationship between gravity and knockback in all the games?

Higher gravity values give a higher multiplier on the vertical component of knockback, both affecting how high you're launched as well as the amount of hitstun from the move. Stuff this means:

• Characters like Fox and Falcon are easy to juggle, while characters like Luigi can seemingly nair out of everything
• High-gravity low-fallspeed characters like Bowser and Palutena are launched abnormally high vertically
• Low-gravity high-fallspeed characters like Dedede and Lucario are abnormally hard to kill off the top

For a simple analogy, think of a low gravity character as a piece of paper and a high gravity character as a tennis ball, in terms of how they're going to act when thrown in the air.

 

[BunbUn129]

Higher gravity values give a higher multiplier on the vertical component of knockback, both affecting how high you're launched as well as the amount of hitstun from the move. Stuff this means:

• Characters like Fox and Falcon are easy to juggle, while characters like Luigi can seemingly nair out of everything
• High-gravity low-fallspeed characters like Bowser and Palutena are launched abnormally high vertically
• Low-gravity high-fallspeed characters like Dedede and Lucario are abnormally hard to kill off the top

For a simple analogy, think of a low gravity character as a piece of paper and a high gravity character as a tennis ball, in terms of how they're going to act when thrown in the air.

But then how does it work in 64 and Melee? Or does gravity not have an effect on knockback at all in those games (considering take pretty much forever to die off the top if you're not playing Fox)?

 

[Hippieslayer]

While i do agree on Bowser>Zard, i do not think Bowser beats Zard solidly in the ground game. I do think bowser's ground game is better but not by a large margin.

First of all Zard's ground mobility is way better than bowser's. Zard has faster rolls, a faster spotdodge, a better dash speed, a much better walk speed, a better initial dash, a better jumpsquat and a shorter skid animation. Also his hurtbox is significantly shorter while being roughly as wide as bowser's. Bowser does have a crawl tho, which zard wishes he had.

Zard's u-tilt is better than bowser's imo. It comes 2 frames earlier, its faf is 7 frames earlier, is way more disjointed (beats stuff like link's dair), kills way earlier due to it high kbg and combos better at low percents due to its lower bkb. sure it doesn't cover zard's front and back very well, but it at least shrinks his hurtbox plus he has his u-smash for for covering his front.

Also zard's jab2 to grab is stupidly good. mostly because zard's jab1 is better than bowsers (frame 4 vs frame 7, it does have less range but it still is one of the farthest reaching jabs) and the fact that it's lower kbg means that it is more reliable at higher percents (not that matters that much what with bowser ending lifes at 80%). Also if whiffed zard's grab is 5 frames safer. Also jab2 fly> jab bowser bomb.

Another grounded move that is better than bowser's is dash attack. Zard's is slightly weaker but hits 1 frame earlier, its hitbox lasts 1 frame longer and its faf is 16 frames shorter.

Bowsers f-tilt is way better than zard's tho, and so are his pivot and dash grab. His combos are way stronger and he is just scarier in general. Also bowsers bulk is way better than zard. His OOs is better, but zard's isn't exactly bad either. imo Bowsers killing at 80% out of a grab> every single one of zard's advantages.

You make many great points man. Maybe I just dont get Zard utilt. To me the lack of horizontal rage really hurts Zards utilt. But perhaps that can be alleviated via perfect pivoting? How do you utilize zards u-tilt?

Bowsers is more obvious to me.

Also, how far do you think the Zard meta could develop? How much does he really have in terms of untapped power? And more importantly, how much of his untapped power is really stuff which isnt actually that good if the opponent knows how to counter it? Ergo how much of his untapped power would be nullified by people aquiring matchup knowledge vs him?

I think thats a problem with plenty of lower tiered characters. People factor their underdeveloped metas in when judging their potential, but fail to also account for the fact that there's no meta developed on how to counter them unlike for stronger characters.

 

[Lavani]

But then how does it work in 64 and Melee? Or does gravity not have an effect on knockback at all in those games (considering take pretty much forever to die off the top if you're not playing Fox)?

I don't know as much about 64/Melee, but looking at the huge fall speeds I'm inclined to believe that's to blame for the discrepancy. For a point of reference, if you gave Mewtwo a huge fall speed like that in Sm4sh, Mario usmash wouldn't kill him until 135% on Wii U FD.

As an aside, I was just messing around with huge gravity value edits and it seems like gravity doesn't actually affect non-tumble knockback.

The more you know.

 

[Halifax?]

the smash 64 knockback formula is different from every other game. look at the wiki page for knockback in smash, it'll show all the numbers.

the only thing I historically don't understand is how fall-speed affects knockback. I'm like 99% sure the effect people think is from fall speed is actually character gravity. so Brawl onward added on the formula to adjust for gravity kind of

 

[Lavani]

the only thing I historically don't understand is how fall-speed affects knockback. I'm like 99% sure the effect people think is from fall speed is actually character gravity. so Brawl onward added on the formula to adjust for gravity kind of

It sounded really weird to me at first too, but fall speed definitely lowers knockback. I wasn't just pulling that 135% out of my ass, jacking up Mewtwo's fall speed without touching weight or gravity really does make him die up to 33% later than normal to Mario's usmash. Interestingly, it even pushes back the percent red lightning shows up at, so the game accounts for it too.

As for why max fall speed would matter in regards to knockback, I assume the game calculates knockback velocity separately from normal character movement, so your character's still "falling" while rising in the air. Would also explain why you can't utilize knockback momentum for B-reversing.

Mewtwo with Melee Falco's fall speed pretty much just stalls in place for the last ~10-20 frames of usmash knockback.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Uhh what? Olimar's star players didn't jump ship. It's more like they don't travel to huge nationals out of state often. The only one I could think of is Rich Brown.

I thought Dabuz dropped him or, at the very least, hardly ever uses him in tournaments anymore.

 

[BunbUn129]

It sounded really weird to me at first too, but fall speed definitely lowers knockback. I wasn't just pulling that 135% out of my ***, jacking up Mewtwo's fall speed without touching weight or gravity really does make him die up to 33% later than normal to Mario's usmash. Interestingly, it even pushes back the percent red lightning shows up at, so the game accounts for it too.

As for why max fall speed would matter in regards to knockback, I assume the game calculates knockback velocity separately from normal character movement, so your character's still "falling" while rising in the air. Would explain why you can't utilize knockback for B-reversing, for one. Mewtwo with Melee Falco's fall speed pretty much just stalls in place for the last ~10-20 frames of usmash knockback.

That makes sense when you watch how characters sustain knockback in Melee: fast-fallers like Falco and Falcon just seem to stall for a noticeable amount of time at the apex of the knockback. It also probably factors into why hitstun feels like it's way higher in Melee despite the multiplier being the same.

Edit: due to the physics in Melee, a lot of attacks, particularly vertical-launching ones, have some pretty crazy knockback values, but only a few like Fox's usmash and uair actually KO early. I can't imagine the horror Fox would be if you gave him his Melee usmash in Smash 4.

Melee Fox usmash deals 18% with 30 BKB and 112 KBG. Smash 4 Fox usmash deals 16% with 30 BKB and 94 KBG, resulting in it KOing 20-30% later than in Melee. Melee Fox's usmash KOed ~80%, and would KO at least 20% earlier in Smash 4.

 

[bc1910]

Given that Mewtwo is meant to be played with the threat of death being so imminent at all times, its toolset is also designed to compensate for this weakness. Mewtwo's game plan against Bayonetta, and the mind set that it's founded in, thus isn't so different compared to other dangerous characters.

This might be more suited to the Bayonetta thread, but I couldn't agree more with this.

Mewtwo has excellent KO options at above average KO percents, which compensates for his terrible weight and survivability. Bayo can 0-death you whenever, and it's not a mechanic than can be fairly and rationally applied to other characters. Bayo is the only character capable of such non-stage-specific nonsense at almost any percent. And she doesn't even have an "easy to kill" weakness to compensate for it.

Note that I'm not against Bayo being legal (both from a rational perspective and because I main the only character who at this point can be reasonably argued to go +1 against Bayo) but I think it's important to be fully aware of Bayo's strengths.

 

[Ninety]

As I understand it, the thing about knockback was that characters with higher gravity, given that they reach their peak acceleration faster, also incur increased knockback, so that they end up launched an equivalent distance, or else they would be much harder to kill vertically. Since hitstun is tied to knockback, then high-gravity characters are easier to combo as well.

Maybe the notion of Melee having more hitstun comes from everyone playing high-gravity spacies :D

 

[Megamang]

Melee had L canceling and moves with ridiculous FAF/IASA as well, often with incredible combo potential.

 

[Myran]

I thought Dabuz dropped him or, at the very least, hardly ever uses him in tournaments anymore.

Imo Dabuz was never the go to Olimar main. If anything he was a Rosa player who pulled him out every now and then.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

This might be more suited to the Bayonetta thread, but I couldn't agree more with this.

Mewtwo has excellent KO options at above average KO percents, which compensates for his terrible weight and survivability. Bayo can 0-death you whenever, and it's not a mechanic than can be fairly and rationally applied to other characters. Bayo is the only character capable of such non-stage-specific nonsense at almost any percent. And she doesn't even have an "easy to kill" weakness to compensate for it.

Note that I'm not against Bayo being legal (both from a rational perspective and because I main the only character who at this point can be reasonably argued to go +1 against Bayo) but I think it's important to be fully aware of Bayo's strengths.

Well I mean, it is reasonable to believe that Toon Link, Villager, Greninja, and MAYBE Diddy are all +1 against her
I would also argue Luigi because he is intended to be a grappler so he doesn't really have to worry about Witch Time and hes a bit difficult to combo even for Bayo

 

[bc1910]

Well I mean, it is reasonable to believe that Toon Link, Villager, Greninja, and MAYBE Diddy are all +1 against her
I would also argue Luigi because he is intended to be a grappler so he doesn't really have to worry about Witch Time and hes a bit difficult to combo even for Bayo

It is my belief that no-one can be effectively argued to go better than even against Bayo without a failsafe against her 0-deaths, and Greninja is the only character in the game who has this, thanks to SSHC.

Note that "second Witch Twist" to aerial (usually Uair) can never realistically be used to kill Greninja because the second Witch Twist doesn't put you into tumble until like 300% damage, and that's with full rage.

Without a combo breaker, what would you really need to go even with Bayo? The ability to beat her in neutral nearly 100% of the time. There is no character who can claim to have that ability.

But hey, I'll play the game.

Can you provide high-level evidence of Diddy or Villager winning convincingly against Bayo? I expect Ranai has done well against Bayo players. Though Diddy in particular has physics that are really easy for Bayo to combo. Toon Link is currently 1-1 against Bayo due to Hyuga beating Saj but losing to Pink Fresh, so I can at least see the rationale behind that one. Although I would say Hyuga's win against Saj was far from convincing considering how badly he outplayed Saj, yet how close he came to losing.

(For reference, Greninja is currently 1-0 against Bayo at high level thanks to Elaxio beating Griffith 3-2 in a set that looked pretty good, although I fully admit this isn't enough evidence to draw MU conclusions from.)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

It is my belief that no-one can be effectively argued to go better than even against Bayo without a failsafe against her 0-deaths, and Greninja is the only character in the game who has this thanks to SSHC . Note that "second Witch Twist" to aerial (usually Uair) can never realistically be used to kill Greninja because the second Witch Twist doesn't put you into tumble until like 300% damage, and that's with full rage. Without this, what would you really need to go even with Bayo? The ability to beat her in neutral nearly 100% of the time. There is no character in the game in who can claim to have that ability.

But hey, I'll play the game.

Can you provide any high-level evidence of Diddy Kong or Villager winning convincingly against Bayo? Diddy in particular has physics that are really easy for Bayo to combo. Toon Link is currently 1-1 against Bayo due to Hyuga beating Saj but losing to Pink Fresh, so I can at least see the rationale behind that one. Although I would say Hyuga's win against Saj was far from convincing considering how badly he outplayed Saj, yet how close he came to losing.

(For reference, Greninja is currently 1-0 against Bayo at high level thanks to Elaxio beating Griffith 3-2 in a set that looked pretty good, although I fully admit this isn't enough evidence to draw MU conclusions from.)

Theoretically Villy and Tink can camp Bayo until 120 and then just backthrow or get a projectile kill confirm, something Hyugua has demonstraded a lot. They have no need to approach while Bayonetta does and she has a rather poor approach thanks to her lack of mobility and bad frame data. They don't need to win the neutral, they just need to stay in the neutral. A lot of Toon Link players and Bayo players think the MU is 55:45 or 60:40 in Toon Links favor, not entirely sure about Villager because I don't go through their boards as often at all but in theory the MU should be the same. Diddy does well because he has plenty of safe kill confirms, good grab combos, and much MUCH better mobility allowing him to weave around Bayo pretty easily, a lot of Bayo players consider it in his advantage. You didn't need a way to break grabs to beat the ICs in Melee, you don't need a way failsafe way to get out of combos to beat Bayo. Also, results aren't the only thing that matters

 

[Djent]

RE: vs.

It's worth remembering that Hyuga and PF played several sets at S@X (they're now 2-2 total). Hyuga lost two sets against tyroy at that one MW tournament, but also beat Wonf convincingly in his home country. Another strong TL, Ri-ma, lost to Hiro, but then traded sets vs. 9B the next week. That's actually a lot of information that someone who knows either character can work with. I will say that results clearly favor Bayo right now, but that the MU still appears reasonably winnable for TL.

EDIT: I remembered Hyuga losing at S@X 140, but he won those sets. My memory is fraudulent. I am updating my credence slightly in favor of a closer MU.

 

[bc1910]

Theoretically Villy and Tink can camp Bayo until 120 and then just backthrow or get a projectile kill confirm, something Hyugua has demonstraded a lot. They have no need to approach while Bayonetta does and she has a rather poor approach thanks to her lack of mobility and bad frame data. They don't need to win the neutral, they just need to stay in the neutral. A lot of Toon Link players and Bayo players think the MU is 55:45 or 60:40 in Toon Links favor, not entirely sure about Villager because I don't go through their boards as often at all but in theory the MU should be the same. Diddy does well because he has plenty of safe kill confirms, good grab combos, and much MUCH better mobility allowing him to weave around Bayo pretty easily, a lot of Bayo players consider it in his advantage. You didn't need a way to break grabs to beat the ICs in Melee, you don't need a way failsafe way to get out of combos to beat Bayo. Also, results aren't the only thing that matters

This wasn't what I was looking for. "Camp until 120 then back throw" shows a serious lack of in-depth understanding and suggests that you don't have evidence to back up what you're saying. How the hell is Villager ever landing a grab on Bayo?

Djent has pulled your chestnuts out of the fire regarding TL (not to say I didn't think it was even anyway) and I'll reserve judgement on Villy and Diddy.

By the way, it should go without saying that avoiding a very low-range grab is different to avoiding a multitude of offensive moves and the best counter in the game.

 

[Nobie]

If you want to see Villager vs. Bayonetta, just literally go to http://twitch.tv/hysranai and watch the archives. Ranai and 9B play each other in practice like all the time.

 

[Megamang]

Her soft ban is interesting, I see it as an intelligent investment for players since she is certainly going to be made worse in the near future. The DLC in general just has... so many good buttons. They are doing their best to give the rest of the cast reasonable access, but I still rage when I dtilt with ZSS in a misguided attempt to counterpoke Bayonetta for her dtilt machine gun.


Regardless, I agree you don't have to break combos to beat her. The thing is, while it may not seem like it right now, she truly is limited in some ways. I can see the argument for highly mobile characters that never really have to engage her, giving her lots of trouble.

It is frustrating to start setting up a win vs her, and her f1 airdodge gets her out and basically lets her punish you if your animation is elongated enough.

Anyways, I just wanted to pop in and say that Greninja isn't the only one with disruptive abilities. Bayo can lose her combo too:

Anyone with a bomb in their hand
Luma jumping in
Someone with leaf shield active (Though this is meh, since the leaves often disappear early enough that she only has to get a few good hits in till its just a normal combo)
Super floaties with really solid SDI? I'm not sure about this with a great bayonetta, but my puff can seemingly get too far away mathematically to be followed.
SSHC
Maybe pikmin attached to Bayonetta might throw her time off? WTime v pikmin makes using them at all suspect..
A falling turnip/banana/gyro/etc, aerially if it looks like bayo is gonna land a ABK, upwards throwing stuff isn't a terrible idea.

 

[Smog Frog]

characters with f2 airdodges can dodge out of a followup from second witch twist in the air

here are characters with f2 airdodges:

 

[Nobie]

https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Sumabato 9 starting up soon. 9B, Earth, and more.

 

[S_B]

RE: M2 vs. Bayo: it also helps that M2 has the best airdodge in the game (which he can repeat the fastest of anyone).

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Airdodge

 

[Halifax?]

As for why max fall speed would matter in regards to knockback, I assume the game calculates knockback velocity separately from normal character movement, so your character's still "falling" while rising in the air.

thank you for explaining, this particular information is really hard to find unless you just understand how it works to begin

 

[Aaron1997]

Upset Alert
FUWA beats KOMO Wow

 

[Das Koopa]

Atelier (Rosa main) beats Ikep in Winner's Quarters

Komorikiri loses to Masashi in Losers, gets 13th

 

[TheGoodGuava]

This wasn't what I was looking for. "Camp until 120 then back throw" shows a serious lack of in-depth understanding and suggests that you don't have evidence to back up what you're saying. How the hell is Villager ever landing a grab on Bayo?

Djent has pulled your chestnuts out of the fire regarding TL (not to say I didn't think it was even anyway) and I'll reserve judgement on Villy and Diddy.

By the way, it should go without saying that avoiding a very low-range grab is different to avoiding a multitude of offensive moves and the best counter in the game.

A multitude of offensive moves that requires her to get in. No its not as easy as avoiding a grab but it still isn't very difficult, especially for characters that excel at keeping characters out. Yes there are also better options against Bayonetta that I have explained other than just camping her out and then using a kill throw but it is definitely a way to win against her. If you watch Hyuga against Bayo players than you'll see him constantly bouncing projectiles off of their shields or hitting them and running circles around them until he can either confirm off of a projectile or get a read.


Off topic but who else feels like the reason a lot of people say Bayo is the best in the game is because they haven't looked for enough anti-Bayo tactics and are instead just complaining about her and asking for her to be banned.

 

[Aaron1997]

Sumabato top 8 Character diversity

2
1
1
1
1
1
1

 

[Das Koopa]

Top 8 at Sumabato 8
Winners:

9B vs. Atelier
Nasubi vs. Earth

Losers:
Kie vs. HIKARU
Tea vs. Ikep


Out:
9th: Rizeasu , ,
9th: Masashi
9th: Aki ,
9th: Fuwa
13th: Komorikiri
13th: YuriAIR
13th: Lickey
13th: Ruri

 

[bc1910]

Dude, I'm not asking to be taken to downtown theory city. I asked you for some evidence. Stop answering questions you didn't get asked; this isn't Parliament.

Whilst I agree that it's good to lab anti-Bayo strats, it's not like people haven't been doing that since day 1.

Anyways, I just wanted to pop in and say that Greninja isn't the only one with disruptive abilities. Bayo can lose her combo too:

Anyone with a bomb in their hand
Luma jumping in
Someone with leaf shield active (Though this is meh, since the leaves often disappear early enough that she only has to get a few good hits in till its just a normal combo)
Super floaties with really solid SDI? I'm not sure about this with a great bayonetta, but my puff can seemingly get too far away mathematically to be followed.
SSHC
Maybe pikmin attached to Bayonetta might throw her time off? WTime v pikmin makes using them at all suspect..
A falling turnip/banana/gyro/etc, aerially if it looks like bayo is gonna land a ABK, upwards throwing stuff isn't a terrible idea.

I'd reiterate that SSHC is the only 100% consistent option listed here.

Having examined the MU spread of Brawl ICs, you only see them with losing MUs to characters who could feasibly never let themselves get hit by their grab. So that's my point; with MU ratios being born from comparisons of optimised characters, and an optimised Bayo feasibly killing you most of the time she touches you, can any character avoid getting hit by her to the extent where they would beat her? The answer is probably no.

Note that I really don't want to draw Bayo/IC comparisons since I'm far from a Brawl aficionado and I don't think the characters are hugely comparable. Bayo's stuff is usually not 100% guaranteed and there is more counterplay against it than hoping the ICs main messes up. This is why I think combo breakers are so important against her - they allow for counterplay. Something that was sorely lacking against IC chaingrabs.

Again, I'm no Brawl aficionado, but I think a lot of Brawl vets are worried about repeating history because it was ultimately ICs more than MK that killed the game. People left the scene in droves because of the sheer lack of counterplay available once grabbed. I think people are worried about waiting too long to ban a character, because if you wait too long the character can kill the game anyway. A similar thing happened with MK since by the time serious bans were implemented, a significant portion of the playerbase mained MK and banning him alienated a large portion of an already-dying scene. I think Japanese players said they wouldn't travel to MK-banned regions, as well. Unfortunately, Brawl faced a lose-lose situation with both MK and ICs. Not sure which character killed the game more, but it was a horrible situation for the game to be in.

I should probably end by clarifying that I'm currently anti-ban. Whilst I think Bayo feasibly has one or no losing MUs, there are still plenty of characters who can go even and/or give her a run for her money right now. With pre-patch Sheik having no losing MUs, on paper we've already been through worse than this. Of course, in practice, this has become more of a toxicity battle. The entire problem stems from the fact that people don't like the way Bayo plays, they don't like the way Bayo gets her wins and they don't like people being "carried". I don't know if anyone is actually serious about 5.99 but if they are, they don't like the p2w aspect either (which I find ridiculous but whatever).

I am actually quite upset that this had to happen with the ballot winner.

 

[Aaron1997]

Nasubi is in WF beating Earth

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ice Climbers were the nail in the coffin, not the killer, of the Brawl days.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Djent]

Spoiler: Sumabato 9 Top 8

1) 9B
2) Nasubi
3) Atelier
4) Earth
5) HIKARU
5) Tea
7) Kie
7) ikep

Bracket. what a crazy tournament

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Dude, I'm not asking to be taken to downtown theory city. I asked you for some evidence. Stop answering questions you didn't get asked; this isn't Parliament.

Whilst I agree that it's good to lab anti-Bayo strats, it's not like people haven't been doing that since day 1.



I'd reiterate that SSHC is the only 100% consistent option listed here.

Having examined the MU spread of Brawl ICs, you only see them with losing MUs to characters who could feasibly never let themselves get hit by their grab. So that's my point; with MU ratios being born from comparisons of optimised characters, and an optimised Bayo feasibly killing you most of the time she touches you, can any character avoid getting hit by her to the extent where they would beat her? The answer is probably no.

Note that I really don't want to draw Bayo/IC comparisons since I'm far from a Brawl aficionado and I don't think the characters are hugely comparable. Bayo's stuff is usually not 100% guaranteed and there is more counterplay against it than hoping the ICs main messes up. This is why I think combo breakers are so important against her - they allow for counterplay. Something that was sorely lacking against IC chaingrabs.

Again, I'm no Brawl aficionado, but I think a lot of Brawl vets are worried about repeating history because it was ultimately ICs more than MK that killed the game. People left the scene in droves because of the sheer lack of counterplay available once grabbed. I think people are worried about waiting too long to ban a character, because if you wait too long the character can kill the game anyway. A similar thing happened with MK since by the time serious bans were implemented, a significant portion of the playerbase mained MK and banning him alienated a large portion of an already-dying scene. I think Japanese players said they wouldn't travel to MK-banned regions, as well. Unfortunately, Brawl faced a lose-lose situation with both MK and ICs. Not sure which character killed the game more, but it was a horrible situation for the game to be in.

I should probably end by clarifying that I'm currently anti-ban. Whilst I think Bayo feasibly has one or no losing MUs, there are still plenty of characters who can go even and/or give her a run for her money right now. With pre-patch Sheik having no losing MUs, on paper we've already been through worse than this. Of course, in practice, this has become more of a toxicity battle. The entire problem stems from the fact that people don't like the way Bayo plays, they don't like the way Bayo gets her wins and they don't like people being "carried". I don't know if anyone is actually serious about 5.99 but if they are, they don't like the p2w aspect either (which I find ridiculous but whatever).

I am actually quite upset that this had to happen with the ballot winner.

I was never answering a question, I was trying to justify my statement, sorry if that was confusing.

No, Bayo is definitely different than the ICs but the concept to beating them is a lot alike. Avoid getting screwed by the one thing that makes them good.

A lot of characters other than Greninja can beat Bayo feasibly, Ryu for example. He can break out of her ABK -> ABK and Witch Twist -> Up air combos using either input Shoryu or Focus except at a rather tight percent window if they DI correctly, has a nearly equal combo game with a TON of doable 0 - deaths, and doesn't rely off of some BS to actually take stocks at early %s. His neutral imo is also a bit better, his footsies are godlike and he has a bit less trouble getting in thanks to his air speed, his rather safe aerials, and FADC. No I wouldn't say the MU is as bad as the Greninja MU where the SSHC is kinda just the middle finger to Bayo but its a very hard MU to play, a bit like pre-patch Sheik vs Ryu where the Sheik had to play almost perfectly against him to actually win.

There's also the Marth MU which I would I would honestly say is in Marth's favor
He is amazing at edgeguarding her, one of the few characters that can go out and not have to worry about her hitboxes and thanks to Bayo's rather slow recovery he can basically go out and gimp/kill her offstage for free. He'll also be winning the neutral most of the time because of his great mobility, tipper hitboxes generally being safe on shield, and much better frame data. If he can convert from the neutral once he'll most likely take the stock, something a lot of characters can't say about their MU with Bayo. He also has Dolphin Slash which is a huge help in the MU

 

[bc1910]

I was never answering a question, I was trying to justify my statement, sorry if that was confusing.

No, Bayo is definitely different than the ICs but the concept to beating them is a lot alike. Avoid getting screwed by the one thing that makes them good.

A lot of characters other than Greninja can beat Bayo feasibly, Ryu for example. He can break out of her ABK -> ABK and Witch Twist -> Up air combos using either input Shoryu or Focus except at a rather tight percent window if they DI correctly, has a nearly equal combo game with a TON of doable 0 - deaths, and doesn't rely off of some BS to actually take stocks at early %s. His neutral imo is also a bit better, his footsies are godlike and he has a bit less trouble getting in thanks to his air speed, his rather safe aerials, and FADC. No I wouldn't say the MU is as bad as the Greninja MU where the SSHC is kinda just the middle finger to Bayo but its a very hard MU to play, a bit like pre-patch Sheik vs Ryu where the Sheik had to play almost perfectly against him to actually win.

Yeah, I think they are quite similar conceptually, I'm just not well-versed enough in Brawl to draw direct comparisons.

I wouldn't be sure how to rank Greninja and Ryu's neutrals, especially because Ryu's neutral is so complex. Ryu has excellent frame data yet suffers from a lack of range and aerial mobility. Once Ryu jumps, he commits. I don't agree with what you said about Ryu having less trouble getting in because of his air speed, since jumping is such a big commitment for him even though his aerials are sometimes safe on block. Ryu can actually struggle in footsies because of his lacklustre range. It's once he's right in your face that he's oppressive, with true blockstrings and such. Greninja has range and mobility (plus a better projectile) but worse frame data; his neutral is essentially godlike against characters he can keep out and average to above-average vs characters who can outcamp him or get in on him.

Against Bayo, I think Greninja has the more valuable neutral. It's not as important how well you can get in on her, but rather how well you can keep her out. All the best characers vs Bayo can do this in some capacity. Getting in puts you at risk of Witch Time, Witch Twist and divekick out of disadvantage, all of which can start death combos. Risk management is a massive part of beating the Bayo.

I am aware that you said the Ryu MU isn't as bad as the Greninja MU by the way, I'm just arguing against Ryu going +1 against her.

It's probably worth noting that I don't think even Greninja is +1 against Bayo. I think it's either even or on the more winnable side of even, i.e. 55:45. I can't see him or anyone else with a 60:40 advantage.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Yeah, I think they are quite similar conceptually, I'm just not well-versed enough in Brawl to draw direct comparisons.

I wouldn't be sure how to rank Greninja and Ryu's neutrals, especially because Ryu's neutral is so complex. Ryu has excellent frame data yet suffers from a lack of range and aerial mobility. Once Ryu jumps, he commits. I don't agree with what you said about Ryu having less trouble getting in because of his air speed, since jumping is such a big commitment for him even though his aerials are sometimes safe on block. Ryu can actually struggle in footsies because of his lacklustre range. It's once he's right in your face that he's oppressive, with true blockstrings and such. Greninja has range and mobility (plus a better projectile) but worse frame data; his neutral is essentially godlike against characters he can keep out and average to above-average vs characters who can outcamp him or get in on him.

Against Bayo, I think Greninja has the more valuable neutral. It's not as important how well you can get in on her, but rather how well you can keep her out. All the best characers vs Bayo can do this in some capacity. Getting in puts you at risk of Witch Time, Witch Twist and divekick out of disadvantage, all of which can start death combos. Risk management is a massive part of beating the Bayo.

I am aware that you said the Ryu MU isn't as bad as the Greninja MU by the way, I'm just arguing against Ryu going +1 against her.

It's probably worth noting that I don't think even Greninja is +1 against Bayo. I think it's either even or on the more winnable side of even, i.e. 55:45. I can't see him or anyone else with a 60:40 advantage.

Their neutrals are definitely hard to rank mostly because of the difference in the way their neutrals operate. Ryu's is focused mostly around his footsies which imo is only actually challenged by Little Mac, mostly because of Mac's oppressive frame data on the ground. I do feel like he has a slightly easier time getting in mostly because when he is in the air it isn't as big of a commitment as when Bayo is, when Bayo is in the air she almost has to do something offensive while Ryu can just FADC back, a passive option in the air is amazing and helps lessen his need to commit. Greninja's I don't know too much about because I barely even have a pocket Greninja

No I wouldn't say Ryu does +1 against her, I'm just saying its a bit of a hard MU for her and definitely not in her favor. Ryu is probably the only character that can actually go toe to toe with Bayo up close without the aid of a way to get out of her combo's and because of his stronger neutral and better frame data I would honestly give the matchup to Ryu, not by much though.

Off topic again but a Ryu played at max potential would beat literally everybody in the roster, nobody would have a chance against a character like him. Also, if they gave him a better walk he would be broken

 

[Ghostbone]

Bayo destroys Ryu

Ryu can't compete with characters that play neutral outside of his footsies range. Fireballs are completely useless as bayo can side-b under them on reaction, she's free to space bair and d-tilt outside of his range all day, and convert into a lot of damage.

Ryu can't chase her down because his mobility is awful, which leaves her free to spam witch twist > divekick most of the game.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I don't know as much about 64/Melee, but looking at the huge fall speeds I'm inclined to believe that's to blame for the discrepancy. For a point of reference, if you gave Mewtwo a huge fall speed like that in Sm4sh, Mario usmash wouldn't kill him until 135% on Wii U FD.

As an aside, I was just messing around with huge gravity value edits and it seems like gravity doesn't actually affect non-tumble knockback.

The more you know.

gravity does not affect vertical KB in melee or 64. It started being a thing in Brawl

Also yeah the game thinks you're falling when you get sent up (it's why in melee characters curve down from diagonal KB hits i think)

That KB stall thing happens a lot to PM Wolf because his fall speed is so high l0l

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Bayo destroys Ryu

Ryu can't compete with characters that play neutral outside of his footsies range. Hadouken are completely useless as bayo can side-b under them on reaction, she's free to space bair and d-tilt outside of his range all day, and convert into a lot of damage.

Ryu can't chase her down because his mobility is awful, which leaves her free to spam witch twist > divekick most of the game.

Bayo definitely does not destroy Ryu, and trust me its good for Ryu in theory and I've played the MU a couple dozen times with some pretty decent Bayo's
His mobility is slightly better than Bayonetta's and he can play footsies just fine against her. He can land on her shield safely with just about every aerial, he doesn't commit as much when he jumps, his grab is arguably better and his projectile is just as good as hers. His combo game is also just as good, just a lot more complex than side b -> up b -> side b -> up b -> upair, and his combo breakers are better in general. Bayo also NEEDS a combo to reliably kill Ryu before like 210%, something Ryu can't say

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bayo destroys Ryu

Ryu can't compete with characters that play neutral outside of his footsies range. Fireballs are completely useless as bayo can side-b under them on reaction, she's free to space bair and d-tilt outside of his range all day, and convert into a lot of damage.

Ryu can't chase her down because his mobility is awful, which leaves her free to spam witch twist > divekick most of the game.

This is wrong. Any mistake means she eats an utilt lock. She cannot down b out. She will bat within and Ryu can just keep going. Divekick abuse is dangerous as Ryu has Shoryuken.

Bair and d-tilt? Ryu can clock her in the jaw for that. Hard jab, light f-tilt which is intangible at his foot, and hard utilt which has upper body invincibility all crap on her bair. D-tilt gets outpoked by Ryu's d-smash and his own hard dtilt.

She does win the match. She is a force to be reckoned with. But Bayo trying to just space moves against Ryu does not work. She beats him through sheer risk vs reward and the consistency of her reward. Blow for blow they will just go back and forth.

Still Ryu has all the tools to win the footsie game.

I mean a Ryu that actually has a REAL ground game which most of you have never seen and never will see.