Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[MachoCheeze]

Basically just Bayo at this point is a little silly, perhaps mayyyybe some landing lag for Cloud (he gets to space with all 5 aerials lol) but he does have a weak ground game I feel people aren't exploiting enough.

With how he's designed why would cloud ever need to be on the ground?

 

[Illuminose]

The Pikachu-Peach problem is an ESAM exclusive. Shimitake does really well and has recent victories over both Umeki and Kie. It's not a Pikachu matchup issue.

 

[Djent]

I agree that Pika does fine in the matchup, but Kie has beaten Shimi the two most recent times they've played. (Both he and Umeki are just much better players than Shimi.)

 

[FallofBrawl]

Just make Bayo's grounded up b have a final hitbox that makes it pretty impossible to follow up out of and I think we're good, maybe increase kb on u-throw too.

Any more lower power leveling would make the game quite boring, I think the devs found that perfect median to remove over-powered-ness and leave enough options for players to be creative/unique for a lot of the nerfed characters ( etc.), anymore would be too much IMO

 

[TurboLink]

(he gets to space with all 5 aerials lol)

What is this even supposed to mean? Marth and Shulk can do the same thing.

 

[Jalil]

What is this even supposed to mean? Marth and Shulk can do the same thing.

I think he means all of his aerials can be used safety in neutral. I don't really throw out dair or up air much in neutral as shulk unless i'm in jump or they're MALLC'd. Marth doesn't throw out dair either.

 

[TurboLink]

I think he means all of his aerials can be used safety in neutral. I don't really throw out dair or up air much in neutral as shulk unless i'm in jump or they're MALLC'd. Marth doesn't throw out dair either.

Oh okay, that makes a lot more sense.

 

[Radical Larry]

Spoiler

You see, let's envision the following:
Walking Speed: 0.73 => 0.81
Running Speed: 1.218 => 1.41
Aerial Speed: 0.79 => 0.97

None of his attack speeds or damages have been altered in any way.

Say if we had that for Ganondorf next patch, the following would happen:
-His combo game would ultimately become overpowering due to him actually being able to connect and string U-Air after U-Air.
-D-Throw becomes significantly better at higher damages, and his F-Throw and B-Throw would also become heavily better.
-His rush-in game would also become better.
-His edge-guarding game would unarguably become the best in the game.
-Recovery would subsequently be better.
-He could escape opponents' attacks much more easily.
-He'd negate the need of Super Heavies like Bowser, Charizard and DK, as well as the need of top and high tiers like Cloud, Wario and even Ryu since he would have the superior CQC game and better advantage and disadvantage states than them by then.
-Neutral would be better and so would Footsies.

The thought is that the development team is actually avoiding buffing Ganondorf's speed only because they know they would make him overpowering. This resulted in them buffing his power and his attack speed significantly over the course of the game until their last resort becomes Ganondorf's mobility increasing.

Now this is all just theory of how he'd work out if the buffs are somewhat like these, and even the littlest buffs to his mobility will have dramatic consequences to his character overall. Currently as we stand, Ganondorf's ability so far is pretty good, and it's only plagued by the likes of Bayonetta and Villager, as well as the fact that we already have characters who may do it somewhat better.

But if you think about it, if Ganondorf had a mobility buff, there'd be no reason to ever play Bowser or Donkey Kong ever again.

 

[MachoCheeze]

They need to increase cloud's jumpsquat frames.

 

[TurboLink]

They need to increase cloud's jumpsquat frames.

Would that even be significant? Would that even really do anything?

 

[Charoite]

Is very improbable that they will nerf bayo combos, they should make this disadvantage state worse, make her defensive options more risky, and add more lag to her specials, reduce her weight and make so when she is hit, she cannot use a second side special, and make grounded witch twist frame 7, so her recovery is still the same.

On cloud add 2 or 3 frames to this aerial up-B, make his Down air, last longer, make his air dodge, and rolls worse,
reduce slightly the kill power of side B, but add 3 or 4 damage, so is retooled as a racking damage move and not both.

Now he is more "awkward" on the air, and have more difficult time recovering.

 

[Radical Larry]

They need to increase cloud's jumpsquat frames.

If his jump squat became F6 or F7, then he'd be ruined.

 

[PK Gaming]

They need to increase cloud's jumpsquat frames.

That doesn't address his core problems (Limit jank) and it objectively makes him less fun to play for Cloud mains.

Poor change.

 

[Xandercosm]

I hope the plan is to bring the general power level down.

I don't think anyone wants this game to be Brawl 2.0. What they really need to do is buff the trash characters hard and give the mid-tiers some good quality-of-life buffs.

 

[Megamang]

With how he's designed why would cloud ever need to be on the ground?

Well, he has to land eventually... pretty quickly actually, he just has one jump and a double jump. And the idea is, you just contest him when he is on the ground, and you don't try and fight him A2A or G2A since he has a giant disjoint that moves faster, covers more ground, and is more lagless than the rest of the disjoints in this game. Basically, if Cloud is near you and airbourne, you should be in your shield, or attempting to time a perfect shield, since any other action plays into the Cloud's hands. Then, he will start to need to follow up on your playstyle with grounded moves such as his decent jab and tilts. These, while good, aren't nearly as strong as his aerial options. So you want to take the fight here.

Having this mindset has allowed me to beat more Clouds than I lose to, although I admit I haven't played any Clouds that are better than me with other characters, so its a hard metric to judge... but I believe its a good approach in the MU, and I believe I am approaching it better than others when I see them try and go head to head aerially and just get mopped up by nair/fair/bair.

Of course, with limit, Cloud just standing next to your shield and waiting is terrifying... This isn't a method to annihilate Cloud (It isn't 'make Zelda approach good), just a mental approach to the MU I have found successful. When I watch streams, I want to scream at people that try and nair Cloud with like.. Mario, while he is falling at them ready to swing his lagless sword...

Which he has no reason not to. Its barely slower than an empty landing to throw out a massive hitbox in any direction... He even has multiple ways to cover certain areas due to the extreme amount of space covered by nair. This is what I was getting at earlier, he doesn't have a weak angle or anything in the air like most characters. Look at Mr nintendo, Mario. He has a good close range burst, a stronger button for beating projectiles and multihits/shields (dair)... but a quick hitbox in front of him and you can guarantee you'll beat him out if he presses his forward facing button.

Cloud doesn't have that. Your button is probably worse in all directions than him, in the air. Thats all I was getting at.

Xandercosm I don't think the general power level should be brought down... I just want a ZSS level touch up on Bayonetta, maybe Cloud if he continues dominance, and perhaps Rosa if she truly starts to stand above. Shiek is still an exciting ninja who has to overwhelm in neutral to get a win, she just doesn't have a stupid-easy way to fish for kills anymore.

I think the game could be more exciting if we saw a higher level of risk taking in top 8. I personally love watching Ally, since he doesn't have kill confirms he has to get creative/in the opponents head to land that Usmash, and it really shows his skill as a player that he can land it on pretty much anyone, even those who know it is coming.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I don't think anyone wants this game to be Brawl 2.0. What they really need to do is buff the trash characters hard and give the mid-tiers some good quality-of-life buffs.

You lost me at Brawl 2.0, the characters in brawl were generally really strong. Falco, Marth, IC's, Snake, Ike, DDD, MK and more had the most ridiculous chain grabs, AC windows, hitboxes, damage in general, you name it. Brawl Luigi, who was mid tier, would easily be high/top tier in this game.

EDIT: if I had to rate general power level across all smash games, it'd be 64, Brawl, Melee, and then Smash 4

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think this game's power level is perfectly fine barring very specific things within Bayonetta that I've talked about in the past. Like we had all of those characters in the Top 40 whatever at Pound and y'all are doin this again? It's starting to get into this really bad "no fun allowed" zone and this worries me. Greatly. The fact that we have so much strong characters should be celebrated, not lauded as a bad thing. The amount of actual SIGNIFICANTLY weak characters in this game is not incredibly large (note significantly, there are still mediocre/unrewarding characters, moreso the former than the latter, I'd say only like the absolute worst chars in this game aren't worth even trying but even then it's debatable, but honestly this is every single fighting game and trying to eliminate this is like trying to create air without oxygen. There will always be chars who are bad RELATIVE to what's presented).

The problem in lowering the power level is that it....doesn't really change a whole lot (the best will still be the most common and griped about) except now the dynamics are less interesting. The power level of the best chars prior to 1.1.5 was suspect only by a little, prior to the Diddy nerfs it was INCREDIBLY suspect (Sheik Uair used to have a KBG of 155! JEEEEZ) but I think where we stand now it's quite reasonable. If this sounds dumb, w/e, but it's how I feel. Like I only think Bayo's safety and certain facets of her reward (namely how high she carries you) are overtuned and probably not hard to fix, otherwise she's just a hard punish char.

 

[Djent]

Giving Cloud a F5 jumpsquat seems like a decent idea. His combination of speed+range is currently a bit silly, but he doesn't need to have lead in his shoes just for having good reach. More importantly, though, he shouldn't gain much Limit (if any at all) when he takes damage. Gaining additional stat buffs for getting hit on top of rage is as stupid an idea as Aura, and that's before you factor in what other abilities it nets him. Making him hit the opponent and/or spend time charging in order to power up would already do a lot to fix him.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Giving Cloud a F5 jumpsquat seems like a decent idea. His combination of speed+range is currently a bit silly, but he doesn't need to have lead in his shoes just for having good reach. More importantly, though, he shouldn't gain much Limit (if any at all) when he takes damage. Gaining additional stat buffs for getting hit on top of rage is as stupid an idea as Aura, and that's before you factor in what other abilities it nets him. Making him hit the opponent and/or spend time charging in order to power up would already do a lot to fix him.

If you're going to nerf the amount he gains on getting hit then prepare to compensate by making the attacks he lands accumulate more than they do right now because getting hit happens to be one of the most reliable ways to actually build Limit against characters who have really high/good runspeeds. These characters are pretty hard to actively Limit camp so it building on the damage you take helps.

Currently he gets incredibly small amounts of Limit for actually doing damage (really, it's so little it's barely significant) so if you're insistent on changing this I'd recommend leveraging it somewhere else like making him build it better upon damaging someone.

That being said I doubt this will change because it's.....well, accurate to FF7 honestly. Not that I think it should or shouldn't but it's been this way for quite some time.

 

[Djent]

That's fair. Maybe if they reverted the charge nerf and give him a little more Limit per hit as well (say if he only had to do 200% damage instead of 250).

I never played FF7. If it's true to the series, then...welp.

 

[Megamang]

I haven't thought about that, but it makes sense.

Nothing is as frustrating as edgeguarding Cloud, going for a final blow to make sure he doesn't reach the snap-zone, and then boom you gave him limit and he recovers easily. I know you can hit him out of his limit climhazzard, but if the Cloud is paying attention to your ledgeguard attempts he can usually just wait you out, then snap the ledge for free.

Regardless, he then makes it back because you hit him...

I think I heard somewhere that this is how it functions in the game, so it is unlikely to be removed. Regardless, its a little odd he has 2.5x reward for getting hit than landing hits. Of course, if he got limit for doing 100% that would be crazy too since it would always pop when he was juggling you just to make your life worse lol.

Maybe make Climhazzard climb a little slower, to make his weakness more pronounced, would go a long way? Regardless, I don't think Cloud is polarizing anymore and I would be fine if he stayed as is.

And I swear I just don't like having a super swordsman around for an easy Mario pocket for my megaman >_>

 

[Kofu]

Lower Powerlevel is boring. The game's powerlevel is already really low overall. They should just buff everyone at this point that needs buffs and maybe fix 1-2 mediocre things about good but not good enough characters.
There is nothing more amazing than exploring new stuff thanks to frame data buffs. I want those at least once.. (buff Yoshis ftilt pls )

Fun fact, I don't really play Yoshi but have thought that reducing FTilt's frames to make it combo would be a nice buff for the dino.

 

[TTTTTsd]

That's fair. Maybe if they reverted the charge nerf and give him a little more Limit per hit as well (say if he only had to do 200% damage instead of 250).

I never played FF7. If it's true to the series, then...welp.

It is. The fastest way to charge Limit is to get your ass beat and then unload LOL. Dealing damage builds it hilariously slowly....which is also implemented in Smash. The only thing I don't believe you can do in FF7 is actively charge it (IIRC). Regardless, the way it is in Smash is....about accurate. 100% worth of damage in Smash probably translates to "OW" in terms of like, FF damage, so they went with that =P.

Limit as a comeback mechanic is a canon thing and also a Smash thing and I think that's part of the point with Cloud's design, really. It's why building Limit on damage is unlikely to be removed, otherwise it....would cease to be Limit Break, really. They'd have to rename the mechanic.

What Cloud really needs is a total retooling so he has his wrestling moves and grapples from Ehrgeiz (go look it up, it's a spectacle.)

 

[Xandercosm]

You lost me at Brawl 2.0, the characters in brawl were generally really strong. Falco, Marth, IC's, Snake, Ike, DDD, MK and more had the most ridiculous chain grabs, AC windows, hitboxes, damage in general, you name it. Brawl Luigi, who was mid tier, would easily be high/top tier in this game.

EDIT: if I had to rate general power level across all smash games, it'd be 64, Brawl, Melee, and then Smash 4

Brawl 2.0: a Smash game that follows in the same vein of being slow and boring to watch. Need I say more?

What I really mean is that I think it would be a shame to nerf every decent character until they are at the level of the current low/low-mid tiers. It would basically make the game super slow and boring and I just don't feel like anyone wants that. Yes, it could balance the game, but it would ruin a lot of the hype and action. I'm not completely against nerfs, though; I think Bayo and Cloud should be nerfed (Bayo more than Cloud).

All I want is to keep Smash 4 interesting. I would much rather have the bad characters get buffs than the good characters get a bunch of nerfs.

 

[ARGHETH]

Brawl 2.0: a Smash game that follows in the same vein of being slow and boring to watch. Need I say more?

What I really mean is that I think it would be a shame to nerf every decent character until they are at the level of the current low/low-mid tiers. It would basically make the game super slow and boring and I just don't feel like anyone wants that. Yes, it could balance the game, but it would ruin a lot of the hype and action. I'm not completely against nerfs, though; I think Bayo and Cloud should be nerfed (Bayo more than Cloud).

All I want is to keep Smash 4 interesting. I would much rather have the bad characters get buffs than the good characters get a bunch of nerfs.

Except nobody's saying that...people just want Bayonetta and Cloud nerfed a bit. It's not just because they're at the top either, since people were complaining back before Sheik and ZSS were nerfed. I think generally, people are satisfied with the tier below them.

 

[sedrf]

brawl top tiers were aamazing even mid or low tiers like luigi or game and watch could raise hell if they were put in 4.
smash 4's roster is one of the weakest to series and only really bayo shows some of the cheesiness that was present in the past games.
the community should listen to this:

 

[Fatmanonice]

Didn't the Luigi nerf happen after the Greninja one though?

But Luigi is still a fully functional character though. Before the nerfs, Luigi's gameplan was like 75% jank, now he's actually honest. Greninja's jank didn't last long enough to really matter while Luigi was one of the most cruise control characters in the game for nearly a year. He wasn't exactly walking away with tournaments left and right but he was a decent sized roadblock for a good portion of the cast because many characters below him had few or no answers to his bread and butter stuff, just like the case with Bayo now. Luigi was a genuine hindrance for a lot of characters getting better, just like the case was for Diddy and, more recently, ZSS and Sheik.

Bayo is the jank queen, Rosa has a unique trait that makes her stupidly good, and Cloud is still overtuned in a lot of regards and that's where the differences lie. Bayo is winning tournaments with prepatch Luigi/Diddy tactics while Rosa/Cloud are basically like prepatch Sheik/ZSS. Compare this to the other high tiers and you can see how the gap has progressively gotten smaller and smaller. Pikachu, Mario, Villager, Sonic, etc have exploitable weaknesses and counterpicks while the three I mentioned arguably don't and can only hope to break even at best. Still, like I said a few weeks ago, this game has come a long way in fixing jank and there's really only a few examples left that are all that relevant anymore: Bayo's cruise control off the top kills, Cloud's Limit Break Cross Slash, and early off the top kills with Rosalina's uair. Beyond that, there's not really anything too pressing in my opinion aside from maybe the activated length of Witch Time, the almost non existent landing lag of literally all of Cloud's aerials (my main beef is how stupidly good uair and dair still are), and how easily spammable Rosa's gravity well is which would all be minor fixes in comparison to the retooling of the other things I mentioned before.

 

[Pancracio17]

But Luigi is still a fully functional character though. Before the nerfs, Luigi's gameplan was like 75% jank, now he's actually honest. Greninja's jank didn't last long enough to really matter while Luigi was one of the most cruise control characters in the game for nearly a year. He wasn't exactly walking away with tournaments left and right but he was a decent sized roadblock for a good portion of the cast because many characters below him had few or no answers to his bread and butter stuff, just like the case with Bayo now. Luigi was a genuine hindrance for a lot of characters getting better, just like the case was for Diddy and, more recently, ZSS and Sheik.

Bayo is the jank queen, Rosa has a unique trait that makes her stupidly good, and Cloud is still overtuned in a lot of regards and that's where the differences lie. Bayo is winning tournaments with prepatch Luigi/Diddy tactics while Rosa/Cloud are basically like prepatch Sheik/ZSS. Compare this to the other high tiers and you can see how the gap has progressively gotten smaller and smaller. Pikachu, Mario, Villager, Sonic, etc have exploitable weaknesses and counterpicks while the three I mentioned arguably don't and can only hope to break even at best. Still, like I said a few weeks ago, this game has come a long way in fixing jank and there's really only a few examples left that are all that relevant anymore: Bayo's cruise control off the top kills, Cloud's Limit Break Cross Slash, and early off the top kills with Rosalina's uair. Beyond that, there's not really anything too pressing in my opinion aside from maybe the activated length of Witch Time, the almost non existent landing lag of literally all of Cloud's aerials (my main beef is how stupidly good uair and dair still are), and how easily spammable Rosa's gravity well is which would all be minor fixes in comparison to the retooling of the other things I mentioned before.

@ the bolded, rosa has a couple MUs (mainly meta knight and cloud) that wreck her badly, so this is only true for bayo and cloud.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Ah, right, I keep forgetting Rosalina actually kind of has a few bad match ups now. I still stand by how she does still have some jank, however. Killing characters off the top at like 40% is still pretty dumb as is Luma's "gentleman" combo.

 

[Xandercosm]

Except nobody's saying that...people just want Bayonetta and Cloud nerfed a bit. It's not just because they're at the top either, since people were complaining back before Sheik and ZSS were nerfed. I think generally, people are satisfied with the tier below them.

I want them to be nerfed too.

brawl top tiers were aamazing even mid or low tiers like luigi or game and watch could raise hell if they were put in 4.
smash 4's roster is one of the weakest to series and only really bayo shows some of the cheesiness that was present in the past games.

Smash 4 is all skill and no cheese sans Bayonetta.

 

[sedrf]

anybody have update on gums,arcadian, and tcg?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I want them to be nerfed too.



Smash 4 is all skill and no cheese sans Bayonetta.

Cheese is gimmicks bro lol everybody has cheese

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Brawl 2.0: a Smash game that follows in the same vein of being slow and boring to watch. Need I say more?

What I really mean is that I think it would be a shame to nerf every decent character until they are at the level of the current low/low-mid tiers. It would basically make the game super slow and boring and I just don't feel like anyone wants that. Yes, it could balance the game, but it would ruin a lot of the hype and action. I'm not completely against nerfs, though; I think Bayo and Cloud should be nerfed (Bayo more than Cloud).

All I want is to keep Smash 4 interesting. I would much rather have the bad characters get buffs than the good characters get a bunch of nerfs.

The buff and never need mentality is what lead to Project M 3.02.

It can also be a lot more time consuming rather than just nerfing core issues with a character.

 

[R3D3MON]

Yes, but they only nerfed the tools that were clearly problematic and they gave him some nice compensation buffs.

I hope this is a joke. Btw d-throw isn't the only thing Luigi got nerfed in.

Luigi is still an excellent character, though.

What do you mean by excellent? Sitting in the high end of mid-tier? Man I was happy the character could finally be good in smash game, but nope.

 

[Thinkaman]

The idea of games having a "power level" is a meaningless term that can only have any application in the case of comparing characters across transplants. (i.e. "how good would Brawl Luigi be in Smash 4")

But all those comparisons are inherently meaningless because they require a thousand ambiguous assumptions on what it means to translate a character across games.

The average "power level" of any given game is always, by definition, average.



Do note that character differentiation/homogenization is a very real thing, and can easily be associated with many of the broader things that have been talked about. But no one wants a homogenized cast, and all 4 Smash games are some of the least homogenized competitive games ever made--so that's not really the topic at hand, or at least shouldn't be.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Comparing Cloud to pre-patch Sheik is really funny, funny enough that I am willing to bet all of my neo-shekels that people wouldn't be doing this if Thinkaman hadn't posted that thing about Cloud netting results and in a theoretical world where the Sheik nerf never happened. Maybe I'll hack in Cloud to have pre-patch Needles at some point, would be fun.

Also Luigi is "functional" yes but I think he's largely irrelevant now lol. I recall one of the best things being said about him at this point was the frame data of his smashes being amazing, and yeah while they're pretty solid his air to ground game is so laughably bad that it's super hard to even mix them up within regular gameplay. His SH is super high and his fall speed is low so feints become incredibly obvious, his USmash has a sourspot which hinders its wider range compared to Mario's (Doc's is like Luigi's but much better) and his terrible shield traction do him absolutely no favors and only add to the frustration of playing the character at this point. Anyone saying his nerf kept him good or relevant has no idea. The character actually lost a lot and unlike Sheik his kit doesn't lend itself to creativity. They took a rather one dimensional (sorry, sorry! It's true, he was all about the grab conversions) character and nerfed said dimension. Ultimately where he's ended up is a result of that. The character had a losing MU to Samus before the patch even ffs, it makes me wonder what the hell they were thinking LOL. Like, he has to fish for kills like Mario except his air mobility and his mixup game as a result of this when it comes to fishing is crippled beyond belief and it's depressing.

He has to fish for kills but he's not incredibly good at doing that. Cyclone gimp requires almost unreal levels of mashing because they made it like that for some reason, and Green Missile's hitbox is crap (it's within his body, I am absolutely positive the hitbox is not disjointed nor very big) meaning it's pretty easy edgeguard food that I'm surprised was even let by when Luigi was relevant. Seriously, his misfire loses to jabs in this game.

tl;dr Luigi is not excellent, I don't think his current results even come close to reflecting that. There's more than one reason why he hasn't been mentioned when a sentence doesn't include "nerf" about 80% of the time.

Oh and his compensation? Dtilt is absolute **** as a poke now (it was comparable to Mario dtilt and a nice quick popup option, really underused until they dumped all over it in that one patch) and his Dair can sweetspot marginally better with his crap airspeed. Fantastic.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The buff and never need mentality is what lead to Project M 3.02.

It can also be a lot more time consuming rather than just nerfing core issues with a character.

Nerfing legitimate good characters is never a good thing though

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Nerfing legitimate good characters is never a good thing though

It is a good thing if they are too strong.

Balance is a never ending job.

You can keep a character together but still you can't always leave them alone at the top.

 

[R3D3MON]

TTTTTsd

Thank you for summarizing what I said about the character several times in this thread. Seriously annoys me when people say that he has "hidden potential" and other BS because of the nerfs and whatnot. Seriously the amount of character misinformation for Luigi is as high as MK because everybody always makes really vague and often times wrong comments/statements about Luigi's strong points and weaknesses :/

Sakurai please buff this character in some way (recovery buff please).

EDIT: Djent What happened to PInk Fresh? Wasn't he suppose to be at GUMS?

 

[Djent]

anybody have update on gums,arcadian, and tcg?

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