Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Baby_Sneak]

I personally hate the "bayo carries players" argument. I just feel like it discredits the player's work into the character.

I know Ninjalink. The guys has a mind built for Smash. If you listen to him talk about the game you can tell he is capable. He has always gotten respectable results in his region, but can't really travel far away to play the big names. Calling him a mid level player is really under rating him, and this probably goes along with the several of the other big bayo main's as well.

He created diddy's meta back in brawl when he beat m2k and abused banana like no other.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Pink Fresh, Salem and Ninjalink have been super known high level players. I think it's not fair to blame it on the character if they switched from a non-top tier to a top tier and get results or if they just really decided to play this game seriously with Bayonetta, because they didn't have a character they like before.
I think it's just natural. Those are very experienced players with a lot of smash experience.
Everyone gets carried by their character and if you played a worse character before it's the expected outcome to place better if you switch to a top tier.

Alright, let me clarify, for THIS game. I'm not talking about Brawl or Project M, Smash 4. Pink Fresh didn't have a lot of success with Pit or Lucas, Salem was kind of there with Sheik/ZSS, and Ninjalink has dabbled with Bowser Jr/Greninja/Shulk/Cloud/Megaman. Compared to their results before, their results have definitely improved since picking up Bayo.

Add in: Also, my definition of a "high level player" is someone who regularly ranks or even wins in national tournaments. Mid level is regional. Low is local.

 

[Kofu]

I think the gripes toward pre-patch Luigi and Diddy are relatable, in some ways, to the current complaints about Bayonetta.

I don't see Bayonetta's problem really stemming from her "pick-up-and-play" skill floor (even though I think it does take a bit of practice to know how her moves flow). Rather, it stems from her insane reward and rather minimal risk against most characters. Compounding this is how easily she can change her disadvantage into advantage (something even Diddy and Luigi didn't have). Most of the other top/high tiers in this game have/had an appreciable amount of work involved to get the biggest rewards despite some very strong tools, but Bayonetta (along with pre-patch Diddy and Luigi) has her strong tools rather readily available with minimal risk.

Some nerfs to rein this in are probably justified. Diddy got his main abusable tools pared back nicely but still had an extremely well-rounded kit to fall back on (buffs to jab and smashes notwithstanding). Luigi got hit harder, but that's mainly because his weaknesses are more apparent and readily exploitable. Given his higher damage output and limited mobility he's probably not intended to get in easily because he's able to do a LOT of damage once he does.

 

[R3D3MON]

Fatmanonice
Nobody is denying that their results have improved by picking up a Bayo. What people are saying is that Pink Fresh, Salem, and Ninjalink are solid players with good fundamentals and a competitive mindset and don't need Bayo to increase their inherent skills as players. Using Bayo will of course get them better results since Bayo is better than all of the characters that they used in the past by far.

This is in similar vein to Tweek, who got rather good (but not amazing) results with a low/low-mid tier character (Bowser Jr.) and recently have gotten improved results by switching to Cloud, who is a much better character than Bowser Jr. by far. His fundamental skills as a player allows him to masterfully use Cloud and get better placings than before because Cloud is a good character.

 

[Trifroze]

Someone ****ing understands.

Why do you people want a game full of WEAKLINGS?!

Luigi's problem (from a design standpoint) for example was that his dthrow and fireball were superior to every other option he had in neutral 90% of the time. To fix this, would you buff every other move Luigi has so much that there's similar incentive to go for those options instead and then bring the rest of the cast onto this new ridiculous level of his, or would you just nerf Luigi's fireballs and dthrow slightly? It's a lot of effort to fix the game with buffs alone, and if you decide to go for all of that you're bound to create really unbalanced movesets or just monsters in general. The cast is running out of options worth nerfing though.

 

[Fatmanonice]

That's basically what I'm saying though. A good player is made significantly better. I'm not arguing that any of them are bad players, I'm just pointing out that they were just sort of doing alright overall until they switched and now they're beating some of the best players in the world. Yes, I'm aware of their skills, hell, I've been subscribed to Ninjalink's Youtube channel since 2008 and Pink Fresh used to attend my online Brawl tournaments but I also know that none of the people I listed were really making huge waves for this game in particular. Great players but not exactly walking away with tournaments or even making it to the final four on a regular basis.

 

[Pancracio17]

I mean yeah, but tweek is in a similar predicament. And salem couldnt really play until bayo came out so he didnt make waves because he didnt try to.

 

[wedl!!]

I guarantee you guys if Pink Fresh/AeroLink/Saj/Riot Lettuce picked up literally any other top tier and got the same/very similar results as they are now no one would say a word.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I guarantee you guys if Pink Fresh/AeroLink/Saj/Riot Lettuce picked up literally any other top tier and got the same/very similar results as they are now no one would say a word.

But I think that's kind of the point since there's a similar thread that runs through all of them: they're all using Bayo. You're right, if there was a mix this wouldn't even be a conversation. People finding newfound success with 4-5 characters? Cool beans, the game is diversifying. People finding newfound success with 1 character? Definitely a talking point.

 

[sedrf]

The amount of **** aerolink is getting seems pretty sad.

 

[Das Koopa]

Megafox reverse 3-0s Aerolink

straight-up demolished Aero game 5

 

[Charoite]

People that made the switch to cloud actually are getting better results that people who switched to bayo.

 

[Rizen]

The amount of **** aerolink is getting seems pretty sad.

He did cheat on his Waifu with another woman .


Seriously though, I don't see anyone here blaming players but rather saying Bayo as a character is overtuned. But I could easily be missing a lot of hate elsewhere on the internet because, hey it's the internet
IMO Bayo has very high, 0-death reward off minimal risk, great disadvantage from bat within, possibly the best recovery, great OoS, an way to force approaches from some characters and the best counter in the game. Nerfs are warranted.
I don't blame players for picking the best character; that's what you do to win :/ Hating the players isn't justified at all.

 

[19_]

He did cheat on his Waifu with another woman .


Seriously though, I don't see anyone here blaming players but rather saying Bayo as a character is overtuned. But I could easily be missing a lot of hate elsewhere on the internet because, hey it's the internet
IMO Bayo has very high, 0-death reward off minimal risk, great disadvantage from bat within, possibly the best recovery, great OoS, an way to force approaches from some characters and the best counter in the game. Nerfs are warranted.
I don't blame players for picking the best character; that's what you do to win :/ Hating the players isn't justified at all.

Actually Aerolink will most likely play bayo till the very end, which is why I am a fan of his. He wanted her in the game before smash 4 was even a thing.

btw congrats to @AeroLink_the_SoulMaster on 3rd at tgc7.

 

[C0rvus]

People that made the switch to cloud actually are getting better results that people who switched to bayo.

Can you back up that claim at all? In my experience that isn't true. Tweek hasn't placed much better than he used to, but I can only account for regional results. I mean, ****ty players who picked up Cloud do better than ****ty players who pick up Bayonetta, but that's just an examination of ease of use.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I was about to say, Tweek's the only player I can think of that's recently been knocking heads with top players since switching to Cloud. Mew2King definitely found better footing with Cloud than he did with Sheik but it looks like he may go Mewtwo now? Who else has really broken through with Cloud? Again, we're talking about high and mid level.

 

[sedrf]

TCG results:
1st) MegaFox

2nd) MVD

3rd) AeroLink

4th) DJ Fliphop

5th) MeMe

5th) ESAM

7th) Karna

7th) Jerm

 

[sedrf]

http://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/09/sakurai-on-balance/
Oh and sakurai had another interview on balancing smash

 

[thehard]

Wow, Megafox absolutely destroyed MVD in Grands. He was basically suffocating and/or reading MVD at every juncture. I love how creative you can get with Fox's strings/mixups, he's so fun to watch...

 

[Megamang]

The commentators mentioned that MVD believes that MU to be in Fox's favor, and I could see that.

Though i'd give Diddy the edge in neutral, its close, and Fox's advantage stage is devastating. MVD was airdodging a lot though... but its hard not to pull the trigger when fox is jumping around below you.

 

[Pancracio17]

M2k is not switching to mew2, he said so himself. He likes cloud a lot more.

 

[Das Koopa]

>looks at Top 16
>"King Lucy IV"

Time to look through VODs. Obscure names are the bane of data collectors >_> <_<

 

[Megamang]

It seemed like ESAM was having trouble killing, or at least killing before he was killed. But, he made the frame traps and aggression of pika look very cool and very viable.

Even though he struggles in a kill confirm centric meta, he does like a meta where even the most dominant aren't recovering for free. Diddy and fox are killable with a few stray aerials if you land them in the right sequence.

 

[Das Koopa]

Top 16 for TGC 7

Spoiler

1st: Megafox ()
2nd: MVD ()
3rd: AeroLink ()
4th: DJ Fliphop ()
5th: ESAM ()
5th: MeMe (,)
7th: Jerm ()
7th: Karna ()
9th: Joker ()
9th: Samsora ()
9th: Pugwest ()
9th: KJ ()
13th: ThisGuy ()
13th: HaKii ()
13th: Tipy ()
13th: King Lucy IV ()

 

[juddy96]

>looks at Top 16
>"King Lucy IV"

Time to look through VODs. Obscure names are the bane of data collectors >_> <_<

King Lucy IV has gone by a billion different names in this game. Most notably known as shadow1pj from the Brawl days.

 

[Nocally]

It's nice seeing Pikachu getting some results, at the rate the top tiers get nerfed, Pikachu might end up in high tier one day.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

It's nice seeing Pikachu getting some results, at the rate the top tiers get nerfed, Pikachu might end up in high tier one day.

Pikachu honestly has the move set to be high tier but lately ESAM hasn't been performing as well as he was almost a year ago. He went from almost beating ZeRo multiple times on his prime to barely getting top 5 at a regional. This wouldn't be an issue for pika if he had more players. Pikachu honestly boggles my mind he has fantastic tools but none of the high-top level players want to use him even with other top tiers getting nerfed.

 

[juddy96]

Also, this really doesn't mean much because it was an Arcadian, but at the Michigan Arcadian today, over 200 players turned up, and LTC | Komota won the whole thing!

 

[Megamang]

Pikachu is really fun to play, and Quick Attack is a really fun tool to optimize and put into use against people. Pikachu just struggles to kill sometimes, and that is very frustrating at any level. ESAM puts forth crazy aggression to cover this up, but as he was killing people he was dying even faster, at least vs MVD.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Late since almost everyone at TGC7 is dead or currently dying (me), but ESAM and his Peach problem has been an issue since the Brawl days.
Illmatic vs ESAM was always one sided.

Also Meme used Link too but don't recall if he won any games cause I was too busy dying.

 

[juddy96]

Honestly I looked at the pools before the tourney started and I thought Captain Zack could beat him, not only due to ESAM's previous Peach issues, but also because Captain Zack is really damn good. Him and fellow Louisiana Peach Samsora are pretty unknown on a national scale, but they are definitely up there when it comes to top Peach players in the world.

 

[Shaya]

We've had a lot of pikachu discussions, but SolidSense has made a pretty good post (probably several times) covering all that Pikachu actually lacks and it isn't just KOing. I may not recall exactly but this is my general take of the other uncommonly considered issues of Pika...

Not having any horizontal range in his aerials, nor a good anti air tool from the ground (ftilt isn't rewarding, and up tilt does get played around/outranged) or any safe landing (non-ac'd) aerials and hence and otherwise average spread of out of dash options (up smash and dash attack [underrated move imo] aren't safe and his grab reward isn't exemplary, and a low tier dash to shield sitting at 14 frames) is a very difficult character to succeed with in this meta game / general game balance. I can't think of a character who has comparable horizontal/range weaknesses as pronounced as Pika. These are not insignificant!

ESAM's general amazing abilities as a player has carried Pikachu [and the speed at which he pushed his meta] for a very long time, that and the necessity of learning the match up to deal with him (many chars need to adjust to having to punish moves [still very punishable] that have lag animations flat as a pancake on the ground) has been strong enough to keep him ahead for a long time. NAKAT exists for Pikachu but I know almost all of his results (bar nairo wins?) as a reflection of his Fox and Ness more so than his pika [I could be unaware of things though]. This only shows that great players can do well with any

His strengths (worth noting: QA can do a lot, but isn't a win button by any means) that all we ever hear about don't compensate enough for his flaws.
OH AND HE CAN'T KILL.


I genuinely think he's kinda struggling to be above high mid tier. But it's possible he can be better than that.
Anyway, let's never talk about pikachu again, because you know what will happen (someone's going to quote "non exemplary..." and be serious, just you watch).

 

[zblaqk]

Top 16 for TGC 7

Spoiler

1st: Megafox ()
2nd: MVD ()
3rd: AeroLink ()
4th: DJ Fliphop ()
5th: ESAM ()
5th: MeMe (,)
7th: Jerm ()
7th: Karna ()
9th: Joker ()
9th: Samsora ()
9th: Pugwest ()
9th: KJ ()
13th: ThisGuy ()
13th: HaKii ()
13th: Tipy ()
13th: King Lucy IV ()

Wow Samus has really been making some results happen

 

[Das Koopa]

Top 16 for GUMS 07

Spoiler

1st: Marss (, )
2nd: XL-XCVii (, )
3rd: Raffi-X ()
4th: Craftis ()
5th: LingLing ()
5th: HazMatt ()
7th: BelaC ()
7th: Pelca ()
9th: LordXav1er ()
9th: Waldo ()
9th: MattyG ()
9th: Red Beef Baron ()
13th: Nelvin ()
13th: K3H ()
13th: Suarsuar ()
13th: MSC Chaoszard ()

Lucas is the 13th place king

EDIT: Fixed some inaccuracies

 

[thehard]

Peach appearing in 3 top 8s this weekend.

That's more like the "hidden potential" girl we expected to see 8 months ago.

 

[Teshie U]

Hakii plays Corrin now.

A good deal of sets were recorded off stream including ESAM vs Captain Zack in pools.

 

[Megamang]

Did the uair change effect Peach in any way besides getting rid of the particular infinite?

 

[Emblem Lord]

The amount of **** aerolink is getting seems pretty sad.

Indeed. Dude struggled with a bad char for the whole meta and now picks a strong char he genuinely likes and gets hate?

The community is more toxic then she is by far.

 

[bc1910]

Indeed. Dude struggled with a bad char for the whole meta and now picks a strong char he genuinely likes and gets hate?

The community is more toxic then she is by far.

S4 community is so young.

Being born in the era of stream monsters is absolutely not helping things, either.

For many I would presume it's their first fighting game. I'm not saying everyone should be a semi-pro at Street Fighter, but some experience in another fighter (platform or otherwise) with overpowered characters can do wonders for one's perspective.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Did the uair change effect Peach in any way besides getting rid of the particular infinite?

It basically from what I can believe, made the infinite harder to perform and works on fewer characters, but I believe it's still there.

Still, these Peach results are making me happy, I hope Ling-Ling can get first, he's getting even better.