Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

Could you imagine what the comments would be like if Bayonetta were a bad character from the start?

"What are they doing? How could they ruin Bayonetta when she was the final DLC?"
"Her attacks can't follow DI properly? That's so stupid! She's supposed to be a COMBO character."
"What's the point of her combos if she can't kill? That's not accurate to her games at all!"

Obviously I'm strawmanning people who technically don't even exist, but I do find it funny that, while people get hype for low tiers, they also kind of don't.

Bayonetta sort of reminds me of early Smash 4, when people would complain that the game was too defensive and boring. Not knowing what their characters or their opponents' characters were capable of, they chose to play it safe, and it made the game appear passive. It's only over time that better counterplay developed, and people learned when they could extend without overextending. Bayonetta might have the nastiest punishes in the game, but I feel like people act as if developing counterplay for the character is literally impossible.

Also, I feel like the hate for Bayonetta has reached a ridiculous point to the extent that even things that have nothing to do with 0 to death combos or anything particularly cheesy or janky gets complained about. Like I'll watch a Bayo go up against an opponent where they're both at kill percent, and then Bayo lands a dair or an up air or something and Twitch chat will go nuts. What did you expect to happen to an opponent who was at 150%?!

Bat Within I think gets overblown in terms of its effectiveness. "1 frame air dodge!!!" they say. A bunch of the air dodges in Smash 4 are frame 2. If you were attacking THOSE characters in the air during the time Bat Within is active, 75% of the time your attack would have missed as well! Bayonetta also has the worst end lag out of all air dodges, and if that doesn't get her the 22 landing lag frames might. Seriously, Bowser's air dodge has end lag frames of 5, vs. Bayonetta's 9. I feel like people should be able to exploit that weakness, right? It's not like she can Witch Twist or Witch Time during those end lag frames.

People are so eager to punish her with standard followups that might get mucked up by Bat Within that they don't bother to try and bait out the air dodge and THEN hit her. Easier said than done, I know, but her frame data is based around being especially vulnerable to this.

 

[Xandercosm]

Bayonetta sort of reminds me of early Smash 4, when people would complain that the game was too defensive and boring. Not knowing what their characters or their opponents' characters were capable of, they chose to play it safe, and it made the game appear passive. It's only over time that better counterplay developed, and people learned when they could extend without overextending. Bayonetta might have the nastiest punishes in the game, but I feel like people act as if developing counterplay for the character is literally impossible.

The real problem is that the counterplay to Bayonetta is ridiculously boring. It's such a drag to watch her opponent doing the only thing they can do, which is to wait until there is a small opening to get a hit or two in and then retreat. That's the real problem; counterplay DOES exist but it's really boring to watch. How Bayo will change the meta from this point on, I don't know, but my prediction is that it isn't good. She may end up just like Brawl ICs where basically the gameplay becomes super campy, as the opponent tries anything to avoid being grabbed.

I just don't want Smash 4 to become that game where everyone has mastered the one insanely good character and matches come down to just that. Because, that will happen, y'know. Once top players, even ZeRo, realize that they may start losing money opportunities, they will be happy to switch. Do you really want Bayonetta to become the dominant force in the meta?

I just feel like the type of play she promotes is not conducive to healthy long-lived competitive game. My hope is that they nerf her hard enough that she no longer has such a broken punish game but maybe give her a couple compensation buffs to make up for taking away the one good quality she has. My fear, on the other hand, is that they won't nerf her since she is practically the only character in the game that was deliberately designed to have combos.

Anyway, I really don't want to see Smash 4 become boring because of Bayonetta.

 

[Yikarur]

I still don't think Bayonetta is 100% the best character in the game..
She appararently loses to Diddy and Diddy has no losing MUs so far.
Sheik is still contender for best character in this game.

Bayonetta is just a typical example for "DLC overcentralization". If she came with the basic game people would look at her in a different way.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

And I don't think we should be patching **** just because counterplay might be "boring." I think that line of thinking is a mite bit disingenuous.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Wintermelon43]

I still don't think Bayonetta is 100% the best character in the game..
She appararently loses to Diddy and Diddy has no losing MUs so far.
Sheik is still contender for best character in this game.

Bayonetta is just a typical example for "DLC overcentralization". If she came with the basic game people would look at her in a different way.

Diddy lose to Roslina

 

[Yikarur]

Zinoto beat Dabuz twice. It seems like an even MU to me from watching their sets. If anything it'd be a super weak -1.

 

[Dinoman96]

Indeed. Dude struggled with a bad char for the whole meta and now picks a strong char he genuinely likes and gets hate?

The community is more toxic then she is by far.

Well, to be fair, he did have a few good months with Palutena, when customs were legal.
Even though Bayo is pretty ridiculous, I’d hate to see her banned for Aerolink’s sake. He already lost Custom Palutena, it’d be a shame to see him lose his other character, especially the one he wanted in the game for awhile.

 

[Amadeus9]

Aerolink gets hate because new kids to smash4 think hes a random. It's pretty ****ty to think that way but that's what they are thinking. (Dunno why tho, dude placed 9th at Apex, ****'s sake. Short memories I guess)

It's sad to see the change, I used to see tons of respect for him for playing Palutena + well, now... Just not cool. He didn't do anything wrong lmao. Plus idunno how anyone can hate on him legitimately, dudes chill af. ahhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[Wintermelon43]

Zinoto beat Dabuz twice. It seems like an even MU to me from watching their sets. If anything it'd be a super weak -1.

Crap, I forgot about that.

Well, Rosalina is sopposed to be Diddy's worst matchup, so yea, guess he might not lose to many then. Maybe random people like Pika and Luigi? Don't they beat Diddy?

 

[BunbUn129]

I'm not one to ask for nerfs, but in extreme cases you have to admit they are warranted, and I must say that the devs have done an overall good job dealing with how they've balanced the cast (there are exceptions like , though, but those ARE exceptions). For the people who are for the "just buff everyone" and "decreasing the power level makes things boring yada yada" routes, ask yourselves:


-Do you like watching Diddy constantly fish for grabs at 80% and killing with same combo?

-Do you like watching Sheik constantly fish for grabs and attempting to KO with repeated 50/50's?

-Do you like watching people ledge-camp and completely forfeit stage control in fear of Meta Knight's One Set-up to Rule them All?

-Do you like watching Luigi as he spams fireballs and performs the same old set-ups off of a down throw?


Sure, in any fighting game, some set-ups and options will be clearly better than others. Good developers don't nerf these strong options; they nerf over-centralizing ones. A strong option in and of itself does not need to be nerfed--only when it invalidates a character's intended weakness (Sheik's 50/50), results in them always choosing such an option (Hoo Hah, Shell Shock), shuts down a large portion of the cast (Sheik's Needles), or in MK's case, the latter two cases in one package.

Ryu's up tilt is a very strong option due to it having excellent frame data, the ability to combo into itself and his Shoryuken for kills at below 100%, and even into his down aerial. Should it be nerfed? No, not in my opinion, at least. Why? Because Ryu is a character who focuses on footsies, combos and killing, both of which give him a powerful punishing game while making him hard to use, and his up tilt's utility falls in line with that. You have to consider Ryu doesn't have good mobility and his up tilt has a small hitbox, meaning he often has a harder time landing his up tilt than Sheik and Diddy have landing grabs.

You can't say the same things for Sheik's 50/50, because it wasn't supported by her intended design (a fast character who overwhelmed you with combos but had difficulty KOing), and allowed players to circumvent her only real weakness.

MK is a character who is centered on punishes and harassing his opponents with his speed and aerial prowess. KO'ing at ludicrously early damages was (arguably) in line with that, and from that perspective, it didn't need to be nerfed. However, it was so damn good an option that there was literally no reason to go for anything else and not spam dash attacks, and it was threatening to the point that you played neutral differently against him (ledge-camping), and so taking these two things into account, the nerf was indeed warranted. And you know what? As a character, MK is fundamentally the same as he was pre-patch; his KOing ability was toned down, but it's still his best trait and one of the best KOing abilities in the game.

The same goes for the other nerfed top-tiers. Rosa is still a zoner. Diddy rules the stage with his banana. Sheik hits you with long combos. Luigi is a grappler. ZSS and MK dominate the air.

Nerfing strong options? I don't like that. There are always going to be such options, and doing so would only turn into an endless cycle of unwarranted nerfs. The older strong options will only be replaced by newer strong options.

Nerfing overpowering options? Please, do so. It forces you to play more creatively and is objectively better for the health of the game. It does not create a game with "weaklings." It simply removes unfair options and gives less fortunate characters a fighting chance; the viability of half the cast spilled through with the nerfs to Sheik (Greninja, anyone?). How can anyone disapprove by saying "it makes the game less interesting by decreasing the power level?" Lol okay you're fine watching MK players always go for the same set-up and getting away with horrid neutral play?

The devs have generally given some form of compensation to nerfed characters (Diddy buffs, MK fair, Sheik Dsmash, etc), so saying they are strictly "lowering the power level" is not accurately painting the whole picture.

The only drawback of nerfing overpowering options is that it creates less compelling underdog stories (eg Leo and Mr. R), but it is a worthy trade since you're making the game fairer for everyone and overall more enjoyable.

Brawl had two top-tiers with such over-centralizing tools, one of whom had an over-powering KO set-up, and these things only accelerated its demise.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bayonetta isn't broken. Witch Twist is.

But I think it's relatively easy to fix and given how most of the nerfs in this game have been pretty reasonable so far [anybody who mentions Greninja will be shot ] I think it's likely that something will happen to keep the move in check soon. Until then you have to - and fortunately can - deal with it.

9B is the only player to win a major tournament solo with Bayonetta so far, correct?

 

[Djent]

~ Gheb ~ Well, there was also Komorikiri.

Bayo's theme song

 

[nannerham]

Before we go on another bayo tangent can we talk about how charizard got top 16 at a regional of all things.

 

[BunbUn129]

Before we go on another bayo tagent can we talk about how charizard got top 16 at a regional of all thimgs.

Charizard is decent. Problem is his rep, and this probably won't change soon with the stigma of him being previously bad.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm not one to ask for nerfs, but in extreme cases you have to admit they are warranted, and I must say that the devs have done an overall good job dealing with how they've balanced the cast (there are exceptions like , though, but those ARE exceptions). For the people who are for the "just buff everyone" and "decreasing the power level makes things boring yada yada" routes, ask yourselves:


-Do you like watching Diddy constantly fish for grabs at 80% and killing with same combo?

-Do you like watching Sheik constantly fish for grabs and attempting to KO with repeated 50/50's?

-Do you like watching people ledge-camp and completely forfeit stage control in fear of Meta Knight's One Set-up to Rule them All?

-Do you like watching Luigi as he spams fireballs and performs the same old set-ups off of a down throw?


Sure, in any fighting game, some set-ups and options will be clearly better than others. Good developers don't nerf these strong options; they nerf over-centralizing ones. A strong option in and of itself does not need to be nerfed--only when it invalidates a character's intended weakness (Sheik's 50/50), results in them always choosing such an option (Hoo Hah, Shell Shock), shuts down a large portion of the cast (Sheik's Needles), or in MK's case, the latter two cases in one package.

Ryu's up tilt is a very strong option due to it having excellent frame data, the ability to combo into itself and his Shoryuken for kills at below 100%, and even into his down aerial. Should it be nerfed? No, not in my opinion, at least. Why? Because Ryu is a character who focuses on footsies, combos and killing, both of which give him a powerful punishing game while making him hard to use, and his up tilt's utility falls in line with that. You have to consider Ryu doesn't have good mobility and his up tilt has a small hitbox, meaning he often has a harder time landing his up tilt than Sheik and Diddy have landing grabs.

You can't say the same things for Sheik's 50/50, because it wasn't supported by her intended design (a fast character who overwhelmed you with combos but had difficulty KOing), and allowed players to circumvent her only real weakness.

MK is a character who is centered on punishes and harassing his opponents with his speed and aerial prowess. KO'ing at ludicrously early damages was (arguably) in line with that, and from that perspective, it didn't need to be nerfed. However, it was so damn good an option that there was literally no reason to go for anything else and not spam dash attacks, and it was threatening to the point that you played neutral differently against him (ledge-camping), and so taking these two things into account, the nerf was indeed warranted. And you know what? As a character, MK is fundamentally the same as he was pre-patch; his KOing ability was toned down, but it's still his best trait and one of the best KOing abilities in the game.

The same goes for the other nerfed top-tiers. Rosa is still a zoner. Diddy rules the stage with his banana. Sheik hits you with long combos. Luigi is a grappler. ZSS and MK dominate the air.

Nerfing strong options? I don't like that. There are always going to be such options, and doing so would only turn into an endless cycle of unwarranted nerfs. The older strong options will only be replaced by newer strong options.

Nerfing overpowering options? Please, do so. It forces you to play more creatively and is objectively better for the health of the game. It does not create a game with "weaklings." It simply removes unfair options and gives less fortunate characters a fighting chance; the viability of half the cast spilled through with the nerfs to Sheik (Greninja, anyone?). How can anyone disapprove by saying "it makes the game less interesting by decreasing the power level?" Lol okay you're fine watching MK players always go for the same set-up and getting away with horrid neutral play?

The devs have generally given some form of compensation to nerfed characters (Diddy buffs, MK fair, Sheik Dsmash, etc), so saying they are strictly "lowering the power level" is not accurately painting the whole picture.

The only drawback of nerfing overpowering options is that it creates less compelling underdog stories (eg Leo and Mr. R), but it is a worthy trade since you're making the game fairer for everyone and overall more enjoyable.

Brawl had two top-tiers with such over-centralizing tools, one of whom had an over-powering KO set-up, and these things only accelerated its demise.

Nothing stays the same forever. people abuse the easiest options in the beginning of course, doesn't mean they're going to stay doing that as long as the competition evolves as well.

Best example: if you played brawl in 2009 or 10 competitively, MK was "tornado: the character." If you played brawl competitively 2012, MK was far more expanded than his original play style. You saw Ftilts, Shuttle Loop cancels, ridiculous edge guarding nairo, player downloading rain, and ally's stage control. He became melee fox in terms of versatility

 

[BunbUn129]

Nothing stays the same forever. people abuse the easiest options in the beginning of course, doesn't mean they're going to stay doing that as long as the competition evolves as well.

Best example: if you played brawl in 2009 or 10 competitively, MK was "tornado: the character." If you played brawl competitively 2012, MK was far more expanded than his original play style. You saw Ftilts, Shuttle Loop cancels, ridiculous edge guarding nairo, player downloading rain, and ally's stage control.

Brawl died.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Brawl died.

Doesn't address anything that I said.

Melee fox was Uthrow Upair centered in the beginning. look at him now.

 

[sedrf]

Brawl died.

Be it as it may sneak is right. many characters had alot of options that were eithe underutilized due options being stronger.
for example diddy's banana set ups and the infamous 50/50.

 

[BunbUn129]

Doesn't address anything that I said.

Melee fox was Uthrow Upair centered in the beginning. look at him now.

In any fighting game--or any game for the matter--, you will have two general types of competitive players: ones who innovate, and the majority who carry on with traditions. You can see this easily in the players of top-tier characters--most just go for the guaranteed stuff over and over and over, while others will go for reads and explore other options to give them an edge.

Believe it or not, in low and mid-level Melee, a lot of Foxes like to go for uthrow -> uair. That hasn't changed. It's a very strong set-up, so why not go for it? If I need to win, all I have to do is what I need to do. The Fox play that has evolved from uthrow -> uair that you're referring to applies mainly to high- and top-level Melee. Players like Armada and Mango innovate and mix-up. Nairo's MK in Brawl was another example. He was innovating, but Tornado was always an overpowering option that MK had throughout the Brawl days. And even at the highest levels of Melee play, Foxes will opt for uthrow -> uair at times, because it was always a good option and still is.

The same pertains to pre-patch Diddy. ZeRo was going for different options. Most others were opting for down throw -> uair because it secured wins and there was simply no reason not to go for it. Top-level players are competing to be the best, so going for different options is practically a must to keep ahead of the pack. But everyone else is playing to win, so they'll most often use their guaranteed set-ups because there's little need to go for reads and whatnot.

The same applies with Smash 4 Meta Knight. Tyrant was good and is still good, because he explored and utilized different options. He never centered his play style around uair combos, and so he didn't fall off with the nerf. Compare that to Abadango, who abused the option and tunneled all over it and then downgraded the character to a secondary almost immediately after the nerf.

Brawl died. Brawl died because of multiple reasons: MK, IC's, chain-grabbing and infinites, edge-hogging, hitstun cancelling, etc. Brawl's whole meta game eventually devolved into a series of characters who hard-countered one another due to their over-centralizing options. And that's why it died: because of such centralizing options that eventually staled the meta and killed the game. You were using Brawl as an example for your argument when Brawl is simply one of the worst examples when it comes to game balance. If you wanted a list of the warranted nerfs to Brawl's whole cast...no, just no. Or just read the changes they got coming into Smash 4.

And that's why I gave such a short answer.

And even then, are you saying that the nerfs to Sheik, MK, Diddy, Luigi etc weren't warranted? Do you think it's good game design for a top-tier to have a reliable set-up that KO's at 60%? No? Thank you very much.

 

[C0rvus]

Brawl died because its sequel came out. Are you serious? Plus it still gets played in some places. Plenty of people enjoy that game.

Btw, Fox's up throw > up air starts getting SDI'ed even at mid level Melee. The top level nuance that follows is that players will aim to simply hit the second hit of up air, so you can't SDI and avoid it via the first, weak hit.

 

[BunbUn129]

Brawl died because its sequel came out. Are you serious? Plus it still gets played in some places. Plenty of people enjoy that game.

Btw, Fox's up throw > up air starts getting SDI'ed even at mid level Melee. The top level nuance that follows is that players will aim to simply hit the second hit of up air, so you can't SDI and avoid it via the first, weak hit.

Smash 4 wasn't the main reason behind Brawl's death; it was only the finishing blow. It just gave people another reason not to play Brawl. Melee was doing better and Project M was already overshadowing it.

People still play Brawl, no kidding. But the fact that its predecessor that is 15 years old is doing far better says a lot. And the fact that a mod was overshadowing it, and still has more competitive appeal.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

BunbUn129

Nothing stays the same forever. people abuse the easiest options in the beginning of course, doesn't mean they're going to stay doing that as long as the competition evolves as well.

jfc did you not read what he said? lol

Smooth Criminal

 

[BunbUn129]

BunbUn129



jfc did you not read what he said? lol

Smooth Criminal

So...your point is, Smooth Criminal? No, with all honesty, I don't get what you're trying to say.

And it doesn't change the fact that over-centralizing options deserve to be nerfed. Meta Knight's uair combos weren't even fully optimized, so can you imagine how much more cancerous he would be if they were? He would've been a strong contender for #1 if it wasn't for Sheik road-blocking him. And a pre-patch Sheik-dominated meta is much healthier than a pre-patch MK-dominated meta, take my word for that, and keep in mind 1.1.4 MK was Bayonetta with slightly less cheese and a higher execution barrier.

Meta Knight's ladder is just one excellent example of bull**** that needs to be removed. You cannot justify in any way that a character with top-tier mobility and frame data, five jumps, excellent edge-guarding and KOing power being able to KO you off of something as trivial as a dash attack at insanely low percents.

I'm actually quite surprised the ladder still exists (I can see MK's uair becoming a semi-spike that deals 2% next patch lol).
And at least fair isn't goddamn awful anymore . Now if only they'd finally fix his hitboxes....

 

[Baby_Sneak]

In any fighting game--or any game for the matter--, you will have two general types of competitive players: ones who innovate, and the majority who carry on with traditions. You can see this easily in the players of top-tier characters--most just go for the guaranteed stuff over and over and over, while others will go for reads and explore other options to give them an edge.

Believe it or not, in low and mid-level Melee, a lot of Foxes like to go for uthrow -> uair. That hasn't changed. It's a very strong set-up, so why not go for it? If I need to win, all I have to do is what I need to do. The Fox play that has evolved from uthrow -> uair that you're referring to applies mainly to high- and top-level Melee. Players like Armada and Mango innovate and mix-up. Nairo's MK in Brawl was another example. He was innovating, but Tornado was always an overpowering option that MK had throughout the Brawl days. And even at the highest levels of Melee play, Foxes will opt for uthrow -> uair at times, because it was always a good option and still is.

The same pertains to pre-patch Diddy. ZeRo was going for different options. Most others were opting for down throw -> uair because it secured wins and there was simply no reason not to go for it. Top-level players are competing to be the best, so going for different options is practically a must to keep ahead of the pack. But everyone else is playing to win, so they'll most often use their guaranteed set-ups because there's little need to go for reads and whatnot.

The same applies with Smash 4 Meta Knight. Tyrant was good and is still good, because he explored and utilized different options. He never centered his play style around uair combos, and so he didn't fall off with the nerf. Compare that to Abadango, who abused the option and tunneled all over it and then downgraded the character to a secondary almost immediately after the nerf.

Brawl died. Brawl died because of multiple reasons: MK, IC's, chain-grabbing and infinites, edge-hogging, hitstun cancelling, etc. Brawl's whole meta game eventually devolved into a series of characters who hard-countered one another due to their over-centralizing options. And that's why it died: because of such centralizing options that eventually staled the meta and killed the game. You were using Brawl as an example for your argument when Brawl is simply one of the worst examples when it comes to game balance. If you wanted a list of the warranted nerfs to Brawl's whole cast...no, just no. Or just read the changes they got coming into Smash 4.

And that's why I gave such a short answer.

And even then, are you saying that the nerfs to Sheik, MK, Diddy, Luigi etc weren't warranted? Do you think it's good game design for a top-tier to have a reliable set-up that KO's at 60%? No? Thank you very much.

That doesn't make sense. The reason why brawl died doesn't go against anything I said because they're two different subjects. I'm using the development of MK's meta to show that things change over time while you use something else that is Unrelatable at all levels (besides MK being in the game and him being one of the cores to brawl's death) to try to invalidate what I said.

In a competitive game, those that try to stick to early game strats will be left behind. Anybody who tried to abuse tornado during 2012 would've been 65th at apex because Everyone knew tornado wasn't transcendent and could be interrupted. If smash 4 was the same since Jan 2015, nobody would be trying to grab nearly as much, since they would probably get Dtilted all the time or jabbed. everything will have a counter sooner or later as the game matures.

 

[sedrf]

How long did you play brawl? Not being abrasive or rude just asking?

 

[BunbUn129]

That doesn't make sense. The reason why brawl died doesn't go against anything I said because they're two different subjects. I'm using the development of MK's meta to show that things change over time while you use something else that is just remotely related to try to invalidate what I said.

In a competitive game, those that try to stick to early game strats will be left behind. Anybody who tried to abuse tornado during 2012 would've been 65th at apex because Everyone knew tornado wasn't transcendent and could be interrupted. If smash 4 was the same since Jan 2015, nobody would be trying to grab nearly as much, since they would probably get Dtilted all the time or jabbed. everything will have a counter sooner or later as the game matures.

Counter-play will always evolve. That's the nature of the meta game. But counter-play isn't a surefire solution to balance issues. Did counter-play stop Brawl Meta Knight? No. Did ledge-camping stop Smash 4 Meta Knight pre-patch? No, because he still got excellent results. And, as funny as it may sound, players will often respond to counter-play with more counter-play (eg opting to edge-guard against ledge-camping opponents with Smash 4 MK, which proved overall effective against most characters).

sedrf casually, starting from release, competitively 2012 (along with Melee at the same time).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Counter-play will always evolve. That's the nature of the meta game. But counter-play isn't a surefire solution to balance issues. Did counter-play stop Brawl Meta Knight? No. Did ledge-camping stop Smash 4 Meta Knight pre-patch? No, because he still got excellent results. And, as funny as it may sound, players will often respond to counter-play with more counter-play (eg opting to edge-guard against ledge-camping opponents with Smash 4 MK, which proved overall effective against most characters).

sedrf casually, starting from release, competitively 2012 (along with Melee at the same time).

I wasn't arguing that counter play eliminates balance problems and overpowered characters. I was arguing that the meta of the characters don't stay the same and people will not just do Dthrow Uair with diddy all the time or luigi would've had to make some strong innovation to stay relevant or he would has ended up like brawl D3 (I think people were already saying this before). diddies Uair overshadowing his moveset was a temporal thing and not one that would've lasted forever. That was my point lol.

 

[Illuminose]

Wasn't Aerolink's 9th at Apex with pre-patch Diddy?

His other good showings after that were only in customs...he played both Rosa and ZSS at various periods in late 2015 but couldn't find the same results, struggling to win in a region that isn't exactly stacked. He played 2 top 3 characters but doesn't starts seeing real success after Bayonetta comes out. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Amadeus9]

Wasn't Aerolink's 9th at Apex with pre-patch Diddy?

His other good showings after that were only in customs...he played both Rosa and ZSS at various periods in late 2015 but couldn't find the same results, struggling to win in a region that isn't exactly stacked. He played 2 top 3 characters but doesn't starts seeing real success after Bayonetta comes out. Coincidence? I think not.

Zero won with prepatch diddy. Coincidence? Conspiracy? Will the world ever know?

 

[sedrf]

Who didn't play pre patch diddy. Also texas is low key underrated.

 

[Amadeus9]

Who didn't play pre patch diddy. Also texas is low key underrated.

This just in: it turns out picking the best character available in a fighting game is a good competitive decision, generally.

 

[ARISTOS]

Wasn't Aerolink's 9th at Apex with pre-patch Diddy?

His other good showings after that were only in customs...he played both Rosa and ZSS at various periods in late 2015 but couldn't find the same results, struggling to win in a region that isn't exactly stacked. He played 2 top 3 characters but doesn't starts seeing real success after Bayonetta comes out. Coincidence? I think not.

That's cause Aerolink played .

Players get better results playing better characters. Coincidence? I think NOT!

 

[S_B]

Lower Powerlevel is boring. The game's powerlevel is already really low overall. They should just buff everyone at this point that needs buffs and maybe fix 1-2 mediocre things about good but not good enough characters.
There is nothing more amazing than exploring new stuff thanks to frame data buffs. I want those at least once.. (buff Yoshis ftilt pls )

It's all relative, though.

Buffing the majority of the cast is a lot more work and a lot more balancing than simply toning down the problem characters.

If you were to try to buff all of the cast to, say, Rosa's level, you'd wind up with a Brawl Minus situation.

I'd say even Zelda, Jigglypuff, Dedede, etc. can tear you a new one if you get complacent or just aren't familiar with what they can do. (e.g. if you've been living under a rock and don't know about Zelda's elevator) Of course, managing to stay a threat even after the opponent knows what you can do and respects your main options is the tricky part.

Exactly, and I've seen Weegee players who are still extremely dangerous against opponents who know all of his tricks.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's all relative, though.

Buffing the majority of the cast is a lot more work and a lot more balancing than simply toning down the problem characters.

If you were to try to buff all of the cast to, say, Rosa's level, you'd wind up with a Brawl Minus situation.



Exactly, and I've seen Weegee players who are still extremely dangerous against opponents who know all of his tricks.

Is that such a bad thing?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Doc is more worth using than Luigi at this point despite being overall worse. I (personally) think Doc's top tier MUs are by and large better (with the exception of Sonic, Rosa, and prolly like, Cloud maybe? Luigi might do arguably better against Bayo but Doc can literally kill Bayonetta in like 3-5 grabs, same D-Throw > Fair range as ZSS). In fact, the fact that Doc can actually confirm off a grab against a lot of relevant characters (most of them actually) is probably why I'd use him over Luigi.

Honestly this game as is feels 90% fine to me and the results so far reflect this pretty well. We got the character alterations we dreamed of and the game is in such a good spot right now that I feel like large scale change is so unnecessary and redundant to the point of where if it happens like 1.1.5 again I'll probably reconsider my investment in this game. There's a term called "Patch Fever" in the FGC, it applies to a lot of Netherrealm games. Give it a look. Bayo adjustments would be cool, she could use a few (she's honestly not that far from being ok, people exaggerate a lot and I tend to in a joking way but she's really not miles away from being reasonable, very close actually.)

PS I still think Luigi is incredibly overrated at this point in time, maybe he just doesn't have the playerbase behind him to prove otherwise but I just don't think the character is that good.

 

[sedrf]

Luigi is alright ,but just alright. I rather we don't get another peach situation where people overrate him and people respond by ****ting on him.
On another case what are some mid/low tiers are a couple of buffs away from making waves at regionals/majors?

 

[BananaBake]

Bayonetta is just a typical example for "DLC overcentralization". If she came with the basic game people would look at her in a different way.

Are you sure? People hated to deal with pre-patch Diddy, and (dare I say it?) Brawl Meta Knight. I'm just saying there are some characters that people hated before Bayonetta came out, and they were included with the game. If Bayonetta came how she is with Sm4sh's release, sure she'd get hella nerfed. If she came with Sm4sh the way she is from the beginning, and wasn't nerfed to this day, I wouldn't be playing the game. The problem is, people will buy the character expecting it to be fantastic, and if they make her essentially the Kirby of melee, fans of all kinds are gonna get pissed, and Nintendo cares about the fans. That's what I think the main problem with her is, not that she's very strong by nature, but she's strong because THE CASUAL FANS THAT PAID MONEY WANT TO KEEP HER STRONG, AND SO DOES NINTENDO FOR THE SAKE OF THE LARGER PERCENT OF SMASH PLAYERS. If competitives were more abundant than the casuals, perhaps something would be done. But for now, I don't think anything extreme will happen.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That's cause Aerolink played .

Players get better results playing better characters. Coincidence? I think NOT!

Correction, Custom Palu.
He legitimately avoided tournaments in TX that didn't have customs so he decided to mostly stay in Dallas where customs were allowed for a bit at the shockwaves. Then once that dropped he dropped off even his own cities map as well.
He sometimes went out in non-custom environment to play Palu but people have seen some of his posts on smashboards and FB where he's displeased with Palu and losing.

 

[Pyr]

S4 community is so young.

Being born in the era of stream monsters is absolutely not helping things, either.

For many I would presume it's their first fighting game. I'm not saying everyone should be a semi-pro at Street Fighter, but some experience in another fighter (platform or otherwise) with overpowered characters can do wonders for one's perspective.

It's been a while since this post, but I've been playing catch-up and I want to provide a challenge to anyone who actually wants to try this.

Challenge 1: HD-Remix Akuma

• Play any character to the point where you can do basic things like Heavy-Punch > Uppercut. Simple combos. Play through the game a bit and beat Arcade a few times. Style with some supers.
• Switch to Akuma and do the same thing.

The game is cheap, is one of the best for starting out (fundamental-wise), and Akuma is so vastly overpowered that anyone can see the power difference after using, say, New Sagat for a week.

Challenge 2: Any Mortal Kombat 3 variation that lets you play as Noob Saibot.

• Do the same as HD - Pick a character. Get the basics. Play through arcade for a bit.
• Switch to Noob.

This is, by far, my favorite example of this. You've got massive, awesome combos. You've got so many variations of things in characters leading up to Noob. Then you got Noob. He's a character that has every. Single. Button. Lead into an infinite in some way. If you get hit ONCE, you lose. And it's not even hard. I can guarantee that every single person in this thread can do Forward, Forward, High Punch to Down, Up repeatedly for the most basic infinite.

But ya. I agree completely: A lot of people need a better perspective in the matter of over-powered fighting game characters. It isn't enough to see it. You gotta feel it.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Could we talk about Dedede for a bit please?

I've been interested in him because of how, in theory, he seems to have some kind of pseudo-niche.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but Dedede's top tier matchups are kind of mixed, but there is a few of them worth trying out because they're kind of do-able? Esam thinks Dedede/Pika is 45/55 which is plausible given Pika's horrendous killing problems & Dedede's range over him. Post Patch Sheik might be okay as well for the same reasons,i've heard Meta Knight was already decent for Dedede back then, so now it's probably still decent. Rosalina seems to be okay as well, some japanese Dedede beat Atelier with Dedede recently, he seems pretty good at taking away Luma.

So yeah, Dedede may be an okay character, probably not reaching any spot above MidLow tier, but still.