Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

It'd be very hard to base tier lists on MUs alone when there are matchups in Melee that people don't agree on after 14 and a half years

 

[thehard]

They say in Houston, Texas, talk is sold at a low price, or something like that: http://oddshot.tv/shot/uhsmash-2016040621039451

@Trela

 

[Kofu]

If you really wanted to get rid of rage, you'd have to give the heavier characters an awful lot of buffs.

You want to see an example of a "viable" (still loses to the nimble top tiers but not awfully overall) heavy, look at Ike and DK. Both have had noticeable buffs which have helped them (Ike on like... everything, DK on cargo throws and a few hitbox fixes IIRC). They both make good use of their throw games to create threat, deal damage, and sometimes seal stocks. They tend to be rewarded more for landing hits more than other heavies, in large part because their air speed is better than the others. And, while their overall KO potential is higher than average, they don't exude it from every orifice like heavyweights are wont to.

I feel like heavies are the hardest to balance because they seem to thrive in FFAs and making them viable in singles would either make them absurd in other modes or take away what makes them a good pick for a busy scuffle. Charizard would probably be hit worst from the loss of rage (he's an okay character right now but I feel like his design is flawed).

 

[PK Gaming]

They say in Houston, Texas, talk is sold at a low price, or something like that: http://oddshot.tv/shot/uhsmash-2016040621039451

@Trela

I can't use him to save my life, but I love watching clutch Ryu combos.

Gonna pull an EL and say he brings a lot of SF swagger to Smash.

 

[Browny]

That's not how it works lmao

MUs are decided by the number of options a character has against another character in the neutral, advantage, and disadvantage. Not by how good a character is. How good a character is is defined by the how well they do vs other characters

I was literally about to make a sarcastic remark about how you must be new to smashboards, then I saw your join date, so I'll be nice.

You're right, that is how it SHOULD work.

However that never happens on smashboards, the average person on this forum can't look past anecdotes and a tier list when thinking of matchups. Unless something is glaringly obvious like how Rosalina eats Ness' recovery for free, they often call matchups based on nothing other than tier position.

This forum is FULL of matchup discussions with the same tired old bull**** of 'we have better frame data, better weight, better kill moves, we win'. Typically yes that would lead to one character being better than another overall, but it says nothing of all the other factors in a matchup.

Pikachu remains the prime example of why matchup discussion on smashboards is awful and should never be taken seriously. It goes like this;

1. Pikachu is a top tier character because ESAM said so
2. Pikachu must have winning matchups vs almost the entire cast if he is a top tier character
3. Pikachu must be a top tier character because he has winning matchups vs almost the entire cast
4. Pikachu has winning matchups vs almost the entire cast because he is a top tier character

LITERALLY THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS. Matchup discussions are over before they even start because people always enter the discussion assuming that pikachu wins by default because he is top tier and therefore they call the matchup in his favour because he is top tier.

But what if he isnt top tier...

This happens among most character boards to the point that matchup discussions can never be trusted.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I'm going to be honest here and say that every time I see FFAs brought up in relation to balancing characters and especially heavies...I couldn't care less.

You know why FFAs don't matter when it comes to balancing? Because they're political.

You know why FFAs only matter in terms of character design if you want moves to affect more than one character at a time? Because you can't balance for them.

You know why I don't give a good god damn about FFAs when it comes to this topic?

FFAs are not competitive, and they cannot, will not, ever be.

 

[sedrf]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sohg4p
Shout out to Ray noire for this anti-m2 guide

 

[Browny]

LOL OMG

For the last few days I was joking that Ray must have gone into retirement because of the embarrassment he must be feeling right now for all his constant crying of Mewtwo being trash and that he was the only one enlightened enough to see how bad Mewtwo truly was.

Fully expected/10.

The absolute worst pessimist will only be happy when other people lose as often as he does.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

It'd be very hard to base tier lists on MUs alone when there are matchups in Melee that people don't agree on after 14 and a half years

Well that's Melee, an incredibly complex game with a lot more coming into factor than smash 4, like stages. For example, Falco vs Samus on Yoshi's is in Falco's favor but on Dreamland? You might as well switch characters. These however are more debatable matchups, something like Marth vs Pikachu is in clearly in Marth's favor

Smash 4 is a slightly dumbed down version of Melee with a lot less coming into play so it should be easier to figure out the MUs


And on the topic of MUs I think its time we have a legitimate discussion about Bayonetta's MU spread, not just "oh she wins because lol witch time" or "shes top tier therefor she wins", I want to actually define how good this character is

 

[Pyr]

Well that's Melee, an incredibly complex game with a lot more coming into factor than smash 4, like stages. For example, Falco vs Samus on Yoshi's is in Falco's favor but on Dreamland? You might as well switch characters. These however are more debatable matchups, something like Marth vs Pikachu is in clearly in Marth's favor

Smash 4 is a slightly dumbed down version of Melee with a lot less coming into play so it should be easier to figure out the MUs

For all intents and purposes, Melee and Smash 4 are different games. (Duh, right?) Neutral plays differently. Advantage plays differently. Disadvantage plays differently. Options, and their significance, are all different. The overall game is so different between the 2 that the only real similarities are engine-based, attribute based, and the core concept (rack up damage and hit them off the stage).

Smash 4 isn't a "dumbed down version" of Melee. It's an entirely different game. So no, it shouldn't be easier to figure out the 50+ vs 50+ character matchups.

I won't speak of the complexity portion of your post because I doubt that'd be a conversation worth the effort.

 

[Djent]

People never settle on exact matchup ratios, but the "confidence intervals" (for lack of a better term) of the true ratio shrink as the game's life goes on, and this does reflect in character tiering. A number of Melee players thought Fox was the best in 2006, but that only became the consensus beyond any reasonable doubt a few years ago. This trend was briefly interrupted hen PP was looking like the best player in late 2010/early 2011, and there was talk of Falco beating Fox and potentially being #1. But even that minor hiccup sorted itself out in the coming months/years. To appropriate the words of a great public speaker and use them in a completely different context: "The arc of the matchup universe is long, but it bends towards the tier list."

Smash 4 is a slightly dumbed down version of Melee with a lot less coming into play so it should be easier to figure out the MUs

As far as I can tell, opinions like these are not just flat-out wrong, but actually threaten the development of a deeper game understanding that can only develop with years of serious practice.

 

[bc1910]

LOL OMG

For the last few days I was joking that Ray must have gone into retirement because of the embarrassment he must be feeling right now for all his constant crying of Mewtwo being trash and that he was the only one enlightened enough to see how bad Mewtwo truly was.

Fully expected/10.

The absolute worst pessimist will only be happy when other people lose as often as he does.

Couldn't agree more.

Not that I'm against Ray specifically but a ton of Mewtwo players are talking about others crying and whining about him, when THEY are the ones crying and whining about others supposedly doing it. And before the patch, many of them cried that he was bad. No-one is crying about Mewtwo. His performance was surprising but for most of us, it was one of the most awesome things we've ever seen. It's made us talk more about his strengths, sure, but nobody is denying that he's a balanced character with clear weaknesses.

I think Mewtwo players just WANT people to be crying, to be honest. They want to feel like they've achieved something. But of course they've got to complain about the crying as well. They just want to have their cake and eat it too.

As Shaya said, if you had a childhood, how could you NOT want Mewtwo to be amazing?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

As far as I can tell, opinions like these are not just flat-out wrong, but actually threaten the development of a deeper game understanding that can only develop with years of serious practice.

I know that its wrong but I can't think of a better way to put it right now. I guess what I was trying to say was that the skill floor of Smash 4 is lower than that of Melee, it's easier to get into and low level play isn't as complex in comparison

 

[LordShade67]

if you had a childhood, how could you NOT want Mewtwo to be amazing?

This.

Not to mention for the ones who, for whatever reason, are whining about Mewtwo, consider this. At least THIS Mewtwo doesn't murder the entire cast like PM 3.02 Mewtwo did.

 

[Browny]

Couldn't agree more.

Not that I'm against Ray specifically but a ton of Mewtwo players are talking about others crying and whining about him, when THEY are the ones crying and whining about others supposedly doing it. And before the patch, many of them cried that he was bad. No-one is crying about Mewtwo. His performance was surprising but for most of us, it was one of the most awesome things we've ever seen. It's made us talk more about his strengths, sure, but nobody is denying that he's a balanced character with clear weaknesses.

I think Mewtwo players just WANT people to be crying, to be honest. They want to feel like they've achieved something. But of course they've got to complain about the crying as well. They just want to have their cake and eat it too.

As Shaya said, if you had a childhood, how could you NOT want Mewtwo to be amazing?

Nah I'm more of the belief that people want their character to be perceived as bad, so that way when they win with them, they can feel better about themselves and it also helps with matchup unfamiliarity almost always being in their favour.

He wasnt the only one who spent countless hours making vines and guides and all sorts of stuff showing and exaggerating Mewtwo's weaknesses while Abadango was labbing up nair-fsj-disable-usmash and Mew^2/Blue were busy winning tournaments with him. All of the time spent crying for buffs should have been put to better use and exactly 0 people are surprised that the Mewtwo mains who were positive about the character are seeing success while the negative ones fall further and further behind.

 

[FullMoon]

As Shaya said, if you had a childhood, how could you NOT want Mewtwo to be amazing?

If you're like me and you never cared about Mewtwo even when you were a Pokémon fanatic kid =V

 

[TurboLink]

Losing rage would destroy the viability of heavies. It's why I love using bowser so much; he can live forever and becomes really scary with rage.

Losing rage would not destroy DK. His grab game would still be scary and effective.

If you're like me and you never cared about Mewtwo even when you were a Pokémon fanatic kid =V

I grew out of Mewtwo a long time ago.

I've seen more pro Mewtwo members overrating/overhyping Mewtwo more than I've seen people crying about him.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nah I'm more of the belief that people want their character to be perceived as bad, so that way when they win with them, they can feel better about themselves and it also helps with matchup unfamiliarity almost always being in their favour.

He wasnt the only one who spent countless hours making vines and guides and all sorts of stuff showing and exaggerating Mewtwo's weaknesses while Abadango was labbing up nair-fsj-disable-usmash and Mew^2/Blue were busy winning tournaments with him. All of the time spent crying for buffs should have been put to better use and exactly 0 people are surprised that the Mewtwo mains who were positive about the character are seeing success while the negative ones fall further and further behind.

WAIT WAIT, they were still pessimistic about him even after 1.1.3? There's no way.....

I myself wasn't that big on the character pre-1.1.3 but....I refuse to believe it! SAY IT AIN'T SO!

Regardless it's not surprising, people like Blue and Mew Squared have a lot of faith in their character and I think that's where they draw strength from outside of being good. Mew^2 has always thought the character was viable, as did Blue, and like, that's a strong belief to have when the rest of the world says no. I think they best part was that they proved their faith and like, now they're rewarded for it.

It's definitely interesting to look back at older versions of Mewtwo though. Nair with 19f of ending lag among other things, a lot has changed...

 

[Megamang]

So, now lets talk about something mewtwo has brought to light.

Having a projectile to charge in neutral is really nice. So nice, in fact, that Abadango would rather have the option to charge than to just have a full one. This makes me think, is shurikan really missing out on much? Its pretty much a top tier projectile, and the Aba style makes me think storing a charge isn't so ridiculous.

Also, today on FG, a shiek killed me in sudden death with needles. Not competitively relevant, but you should all know now that fresh needles kill ~300% with full rage. So, beware.

 

[bc1910]

So, now lets talk about something mewtwo has brought to light.

Having a projectile to charge in neutral is really nice. So nice, in fact, that Abadango would rather have the option to charge than to just have a full one. This makes me think, is shurikan really missing out on much? Its pretty much a top tier projectile, and the Aba style makes me think storing a charge isn't so ridiculous.

Also, today on FG, a shiek killed me in sudden death with needles. Not competitively relevant, but you should all know now that fresh needles kill ~300% with full rage. So, beware.

Shurikens are a top tier projectile IMO. Have been since the rebuff (and were at release, of course). They're probably top 5 if not top 3 with Needles and Shadow Ball. Chargeable, good frame data (FAF of 46 grounded and 39(!) in the air), good range, potential for tick throws and combos. fully charged version can combo, kill or guarantee a grab on block.

We're getting to the stage where more predictable projectiles like Thunder Jolt, Fireballs and Boomerang are easy to powershield. Having a chargeable projectile is really important at this stage since it aids mixup potential and can beat attempts to powershield on reaction.

WAIT WAIT, they were still pessimistic about him even after 1.1.3? There's no way.....

I myself wasn't that big on the character pre-1.1.3 but....I refuse to believe it! SAY IT AIN'T SO!

Regardless it's not surprising, people like Blue and Mew Squared have a lot of faith in their character and I think that's where they draw strength from outside of being good. Mew^2 has always thought the character was viable, as did Blue, and like, that's a strong belief to have when the rest of the world says no. I think they best part was that they proved their faith and like, now they're rewarded for it.

This is true of Greninja players as well. I think that's why there are a decent number of "Greninja & Mewtwo" mains on these boards, aside from them both being popular characters from the same series. Both characters are considered viable now which is nice considering their history.

 

[Megamang]

Pre patch, it felt like you needed a non-greninja character to play greninja in tournament since shiek was such a roadblock. Mewtwo is from the same series, and it seems he did well vs Shiek. Plus, some interesting complementary tools (Greninja's slow fair compared to mewtwo's smaller, slightly weaker but muuuch faster fair, their combo starting nairs, solid throw games,...) that makes them a nice cohesive team. Plus, they work like a midtier team instead of you just wondering why you don't invest all your time into the better one.

 

[Jalil]

Pre patch, it felt like you needed a non-greninja character to play greninja in tournament since shiek was such a roadblock. Mewtwo is from the same series, and it seems he did well vs Shiek. Plus, some interesting complementary tools (Greninja's slow fair compared to mewtwo's smaller, slightly weaker but muuuch faster fair, their combo starting nairs, solid throw games,...) that makes them a nice cohesive team. Plus, they work like a midtier team instead of you just wondering why you don't invest all your time into the better one.

Agree with the rest of ya post but Mewtwo's fair is stronger.

 

[ReRaze]

Shurikens are a top tier projectile IMO. Have been since the rebuff (and were at release, of course). They're probably top 5 if not top 3 with Needles and Shadow Ball. Chargeable, good frame data (FAF of 46 grounded and 39(!) in the air), good range, potential for tick throws and combos. fully charged version can combo, kill or guarantee a grab on block.

Yeah I agree a chargeable projectile is really good, like notice alot of the better projectiles are chargeable.
Ehhhh shurikens are good but...there's alot of competition, I could make strong cases for etc or If items can be considered projectiles . I'm speaking solely about the projectiles themselves and how good they are in general.

Just look at what MK Leo does when he steals hyuga's bomb. http://youtu.be/KoT4LQ5gwsE

if we are speaking strictly about how much a projectile relatively benefits it's own characters, that's a different story.

 

[Monete]

Do the players in spain not travel to other countries that often? I imagine it would be hell going to evo and then fighting the best character + MU inexperience. Anyway i disagree on the ban (not baised at all ) but lets wait and see to how the scene in spain fares.

Hope they dont nerf her too hard D:

They travel: Robo-Luigi was

Do the players in spain not travel to other countries that often? I imagine it would be hell going to evo and then fighting the best character + MU inexperience. Anyway i disagree on the ban (not baised at all ) but lets wait and see to how the scene in spain fares.

Hope they dont nerf her too hard D:

2006
Robo-Luigi and el Bardo went to Beast6 (13 and 25/ 7 in doubles)

2005 Greward and Marcbri went to cannes winter class Greward 4th behind Mr R, Abadango and León i think.

They also went to the second largest european tourney 2nd and top 16.
They dont travel too much but sometimes they go yo big euro tourneys

 

[outfoxd]

Sun Salutation is pretty great too, especially in the context of WFTs gameplan. Fast, powerful, versatile, and not too hard to charge with her awkward offstage game.

Love having a WFT on fire support in dubs.

 

[Greward]

Karisuma 6. Bayonetta wins.

Hirosuma 3. Bayonetta wins and another Bayonetta gets top3, having 3 bayonettas in top8.

Shulla-bra VI. Bayonetta wins.

Hokkaido Smash 9 Tournament. Two bayonettas in top8, by two players who never ever got top8 at a tournament before.

Sumabato 8. Called sumabayo in Japan, Bayonetta gets 1st and 2nd.

Sumabato 7. Bayonetta wins.

There has been 9 big japanese tournaments since release, 5 won by bayonetta, all of them with at least a Bayonetta in top8.
Yet she has no results. And this is merely two months in.

Reposting myself from Banyonetta thread.
It's interesting to see that despite her lack of dominance in the USA majors, she is the character with best results in Japan by a wide margin.

 

[Nobie]

The weird opinions about Mewtwo all just come from the fact that Mewtwo is a proper glass cannon. That means, no matter how perfectly you play, and no matter how powerful Mewtwo's options are, the lack of defense is always going to be a concern. For some players, it is a crippling weakness that kills consistency, for others it's not enough to overwhelm the options Mewtwo has overall, and the ability for Mewtwo to thrive in mentally overwhelming the opponent.

There's a kind of Hax$ vs. Mang0 struggle here philosophically. Hax$ aims for technical perfection, and the possibility that you do could some theoretically perfect edgeguard cover if you're good enough is his ideal. Mang0 on the other hand tries to get into your head. When you think about the fear over the holes in Mewtwo's play vs. the oppressive power Mewtwo can exude when on a roll, I think you can see the difference.

The ability to heal using Sun Salutation is super valuable to Wii Fit Trainer. John Numbers especially shows how getting 2% here and there can pressure the opponent immensely, especially when running the clock.

Reposting myself from Banyonetta thread.
It's interesting to see that despite her lack of dominance in the USA majors, she is the character with best results in Japan by a wide margin.

I think it's worth noting that about half of these wins came from established top Japanese players (9B, Komorikiri), and that Hokkaido is a magical place where Palutena won a tournament once: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-AkkiVm_FA

 

[Smog Frog]

i think we have to examine suspect mus. she has them and she might lose some of them. lets take a look:
-among the best in the game at laming her out, has decent reward off of a grab, has the ability to punish things other characters aren't able to, spindash is actually one of the few non-command grab moves that isn't significantly punished by witch time, spring is one of the few recoveries not blown up by her edgeguarding


- is very capable of camping her out with shurikens, can escape combos, again one of the few recoveries not absolutely blown up by her edgeguarding

these are the obvious "not clearly favor" mus and i definitely think that some others might go even(). does anyone else have any mus that might give trouble?

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

i think we have to examine suspect mus. she has them and she might lose some of them. lets take a look:
-among the best in the game at laming her out, has decent reward off of a grab, has the ability to punish things other characters aren't able to, spindash is actually one of the few non-command grab moves that isn't significantly punished by witch time, spring is one of the few recoveries not blown up by her edgeguarding


- is very capable of camping her out with shurikens, can escape combos, again one of the few recoveries not absolutely blown up by her edgeguarding

these are the obvious "not clearly favor" mus and i definitely think that some others might go even(). does anyone else have any mus that might give trouble?

She definitely beats Mewtwo I'd probably say toon link

 

[ReRaze]

i think we have to examine suspect mus. she has them and she might lose some of them. lets take a look:
-among the best in the game at laming her out, has decent reward off of a grab, has the ability to punish things other characters aren't able to, spindash is actually one of the few non-command grab moves that isn't significantly punished by witch time, spring is one of the few recoveries not blown up by her edgeguarding


- is very capable of camping her out with shurikens, can escape combos, again one of the few recoveries not absolutely blown up by her edgeguarding

these are the obvious "not clearly favor" mus and i definitely think that some others might go even(). does anyone else have any mus that might give trouble?

If I may, in theory (can't say for certain because he's frankly dead outside of locals) pit should do well enough to at least go even against bayonetta, He has alot of the tools needed to deal with her:
-Full hop arrows are more than capable of outcamping her and have even less endlag than grounded water shurikens as well as having the option of moving both player and the arrows while shooting (so you can shoot her in the air too).
-He can recover fairly well against bayonetta with super armoured side b. Sure Up B is interceptable especially by her dair but there aren't gonna be many situations where he will have to use it because most of the time bayonetta is gonna be launching you upwards.
-He's got some pretty long ranged disjoints, enough to outrange bayonetta's moves.
-Multihits are good against bayonetta and Pit has a plethora of them.
-A strong grab game for both comboing and killing so he doesn't have to worry about witch time.
-Also it's pretty fun when she whiffs a combo and I get a free side b punish up there~

The best part would be the irony of an angel having a good MU against bayonetta but I'll keep dreaming for now.

 

[Big-Cat]

The issue with Witch Time is that it punishes a 2 frame jab just as much as it would punish a fully charged fsmash from Ike. you also can't effectively punish with anything BUT a grab afterwards because of Bat Within. The move almost ruins the neutral of certain characters

While I wouldn't say it ruins the neutral of certain characters, the reward CAN be disproportionate. To me, jabs and most tilts shouldn't be punished with a big combo. I think the time alloted should be scaled down further to where attacks 11%+ really get hurt by it, but jabs essentially just get dodged.

One thing that I find strange with the Bayo complaints is that no one here seems to talk about how stupidly safe certain aerials are. You pretty much have no reason NOT to use the Bullet Arts versions of NAir and UAir.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

If I may, in theory (can't say for certain because he's frankly dead outside of locals) pit should do well against bayonetta, He has al the tools needed to deal with her
-Full hop arrows are more than capable of outcamping her and have even less endlag than grounded water shurikens as well as having the option of moving both player and the arrows while shooting (so you can shoot her in the air too).
-He can recover fairly well against bayonetta with super armoured side b. Sure Up B is interceptable especially by her dair but there aren't gonna be many situations where he will have to use it because most of the time bayonetta is gonna be launching you upwards.
-He's got some pretty long ranged disjoints, enough to outrange bayonetta's moves.
-Multihits are good against bayonetta and Pit has a plethora of them.
-A strong grab game for both comboing and killing so he doesn't have to worry about witch time.
-Also it's pretty fun when she whiffs a combo and I get a free side b punish up there~

I never considered pit maybe its finally our time to shine

 

[Flux0r]

Reposting myself from Banyonetta thread.
It's interesting to see that despite her lack of dominance in the USA majors, she is the character with best results in Japan by a wide margin.

Probably because she is soft-banned most places.

 

[Y2Kay]

If someone had to sell out the Mewtwo Main's and make all of our lives a little harder......


It had to be Ray. That guy is just the ultimate wet blanket when it comes to Mewtwo.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fatmanonice So, what do you think of the Link/Villager MU? Who do you think wins?

I'd give it to Link if the Link plays the match up right.

-Standing or crouching, Hylian Shield blocks lloid, fair, and bair (except for Link's face which is a very small target and requires borderline perfect timing to hit) and can stop jab, ftilt, and even fsmash if spaced right. This said, most of Villager's camping and zoning strategies do not work against a defensive Link

-In close combat, Link pretty much outranges anything Villager can do and whiffed grab attempts hurt Villager a lot more than they hurt Link. Villager's lack of ground speed makes it harder for him to get away if he's not by the edge of the stage and the length of Link's sword puts on a lot of pressure.

-Like Megaman, most of Link's projectiles are kind of pointless to pocket because he has so many to fight with and pocketing them doesn't take away his ability to use more. A fully charged arrow is easily the best thing to pocket because it can kill at like 70% but, unlike Megaman's fsmash, Link can actually casually block with the Hylian shield instead of risking a shield break.

-Aerial approaches are pretty much a no go because of the Hylian Shield and how Link can easily trump nair and dair with utilt and ftilt.

-A smart Link is not going to follow Villager offstage. I've seen some Link's do some cool tricks like pop both of Villager's balloons with dair but it's not worth it when Link has enough kill power and range to easily kill Villager on stage.

-Villager thoroughly beats Link offstage however. Villager's one of those few characters who can easily snipe tether recoveries and recovering without a bomb is pretty much a free kill for Villager unless Link is somehow recovering from high up.

In my own experience, 60-40 with Toon Link being slightly worse thanks to better comboing and a better recovery. If a Link is overly aggressive, they lose the benefits of the Hylian Shield and this match up basically flips itself to where it's in Villager's favor. That said, antizoning is the best way for a Link to approach this match up. As for Villager, what they'll want to do is bait Link into reacting because when Link attacks, he drops the Hylian shield, making him vulnerable. A flustered and reactionary Link is a very easy Link to beat but a calm and collected Link is almost as bad as Rosalina.

 

[epicnights]

I'd give it to Link if the Link plays the match up right.

-Standing or crouching, Hylian Shield blocks lloid, fair, and bair (except for Link's face which is a very small target and requires borderline perfect timing to hit) and can stop jab, ftilt, and even fsmash if spaced right. This said, most of Villager's camping and zoning strategies do not work against a defensive Link

-In close combat, Link pretty much outranges anything Villager can do and whiffed grab attempts hurt Villager a lot more than they hurt Link. Villager's lack of ground speed makes it harder for him to get away if he's not by the edge of the stage and the length of Link's sword puts on a lot of pressure.

-Like Megaman, most of Link's projectiles are kind of pointless to pocket because he has so many to fight with and pocketing them doesn't take away his ability to use more. A fully charged arrow is easily the best thing to pocket because it can kill at like 70% but, unlike Megaman's fsmash, Link can actually casually block with the Hylian shield instead of risking a shield break.

-Aerial approaches are pretty much a no go because of the Hylian Shield and how Link can easily trump nair and dair with utilt and ftilt.

-A smart Link is not going to follow Villager offstage. I've seen some Link's do some cool tricks like pop both of Villager's balloons with dair but it's not worth it when Link has enough kill power and range to easily kill Villager on stage.

-Villager thoroughly beats Link offstage however. Villager's one of those few characters who can easily snipe tether recoveries and recovering without a bomb is pretty much a free kill for Villager unless Link is somehow recovering from high up.

In my own experience, 60-40 with Toon Link being slightly worse thanks to better comboing and a better recovery. If a Link is overly aggressive, they lose the benefits of the Hylian Shield and this match up basically flips itself to where it's in Villager's favor. That said, antizoning is the best way for a Link to approach this match up. As for Villager, what they'll want to do is bait Link into reacting because when Link attacks, he drops the Hylian shield, making him vulnerable. A flustered and reactionary Link is a very easy Link to beat but a calm and collected Link is almost as bad as Rosalina.

f-tilt and jab aren't projectiles and therefore aren't blocked, IIRC. Besides that, though, this is pretty accurate. Fortunately for Villager, he can get out of Link's d-throw combos for free, so it's a bit more work to put on damage.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah I agree a chargeable projectile is really good, like notice alot of the better projectiles are chargeable.
Ehhhh shurikens are good but...there's alot of competition, I could make strong cases for etc or If items can be considered projectiles . I'm speaking solely about the projectiles themselves and how good they are in general.

Just look at what MK Leo does when he steals hyuga's bomb. http://youtu.be/KoT4LQ5gwsE

if you are speaking strictly about how much a projectile relatively benefits it's own characters, that's a different story.

What really separates shurikens from a lot of the pack IMO is their travel speed. They actually move nearly as fast as needles which is invaluable against reactionary powershields. Link's arrows are good (significantly better than Toon Link's) for this reason too. Shadow Ball having fair startup at any charge before it's thrown and moving relatively slowly are the only things keeping it in check.

I think Dragon Fang is too slow to be among the best; the forced bite creates bad endlag and it moves pretty slow at any charge. It's generally not that rewarding on hit either after the nerfs (with the obvious exception of up close Bite or Fsmash combo, but both require you to use the move at a fairly unsafe range). Charge Shot is good but also quite laggy overall, you can't charge it in the air and I'm sometimes a little underwhelmed with its kill power.

And yeah I was considering the projectiles in relation to their characters because things get very fuzzy otherwise. Like I think some characters would rather have Diddy's banana than needles, but for others it'd be of comparatively little use.

 

[Scrubtorights]

Miis are allowed in Spain as Guest with any moveset.
Allowing all sizes is too difficult since Miis are created outside of the game.

Probably we would have the same meta than in 1.1.3, but with more different characters since top tiers were nerfed and some low tier buffed. I'm expecting all chars with Sheik problems to get better.
Mario and villager would be very menacing characters since most of their counterpicks bar Rosalina would be gone. Rosa would be #1 for sure (with MK nerfed and Cloud not existing, she wouldn't have any strong losing matchups).

Thx. I was going to make note that I was not aware of Spain mii rules so I didn't spread misinfomation but what whats done is done. I think despite the Sheik nerfs, Shiek would have the traits to at least be near number 1. Sheik edgeguarding and moves to remove luma have not been nerfed as much. Needles of course are major problem that luma doesn't need to worry about as much of course.

 

[Radical Larry]

I think Dragon Fang is too slow to be among the best; the forced bite creates bad endlag and it moves pretty slow at any charge. It's generally not that rewarding on hit either after the nerfs (with the obvious exception of up close Bite or Fsmash combo, but both require you to use the move at a fairly unsafe range). Charge Shot is good but also quite laggy overall, you can't charge it in the air and I'm sometimes a little underwhelmed with its kill power.

On Dragon Fang, you know that it is able to true combo into itself at any charge, right? If you tap B for the projectile, then press and hold B again, you're going to still get a true combo that can kill very early, and is very cheap.

Secondly about Charge Shot, it's meant to be either a ledge-trap (since it can hit opponents who hang to the ledge) or a projectile that should be set up to or predicted to. And its strength and kill power are really decent, and its shield breaking potential is high if you can set it up into one, you know, force the opponent into shielding. It's also good at making your opponents respect and fear you, and you can keep it stored, making your opponent just try guessing when it's coming out.

Personally, I'd do a well-placed Charge Shot on an opponent who's rushing in, since that's where they have their guard down the most. An opponent coming up to you near off stage is bound to have more of a chance to get hit.

 

[Luco]

What really separates shurikens from a lot of the pack IMO is their travel speed. They actually move nearly as fast as needles which is invaluable against reactionary powershields. Link's arrows are good (significantly better than Toon Link's) for this reason too. Shadow Ball having fair startup at any charge before it's thrown and moving relatively slowly are the only things keeping it in check.

I think Dragon Fang is too slow to be among the best; the forced bite creates bad endlag and it moves pretty slow at any charge. It's generally not that rewarding on hit either after the nerfs (with the obvious exception of up close Bite or Fsmash combo, but both require you to use the move at a fairly unsafe range). Charge Shot is good but also quite laggy overall, you can't charge it in the air and I'm sometimes a little underwhelmed with its kill power.

And yeah I was considering the projectiles in relation to their characters because things get very fuzzy otherwise. Like I think some characters would rather have Diddy's banana than needles, but for others it'd be of comparatively little use.

I totally agree that Shurikens are massive but I would make an argument for Bombs being just that little bit more threatening. Both set-up for a whole bunch of stuff (Shuriken has more combo use when it's fully charged so that its slower and the final hit pops people up for Fair), the reason I think bombs win out is because once you commit to Shurikens, you commit, and the variance of when you shoot it is nice but the opponent can just straight up hold shield the entire time if they want to or jump away. Which of course is fantastic in its own right but I think bombs being more versatile and can just be kept until needed pretty much makes them just that little bit better.

I'd say Shuriken is probably top 5 though. All of the big chargeable projectiles are also amazing but don't quite carry the same threat imo or don't kill early enough.