Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ghidorah14]

Ghidorah14 I mean, we can pretend that's not an issue but it absolutely is. I agree with your sentiment, but Mewtwo might get a few fairs or a down tilt or a grab. Bayonetta can and will confirm into huge damage or outright kill off a WHIFF PUNISH. That's the problem: risk/reward. Nothing inherently wrong with a character that can get away with pressing buttons, although it's generally pretty bad design. I would love it if neither character could get away with it, but Bayo's reward is far greater, there's no two ways about it.

But thats the thing about smash vs traditional fighters; you CAN get away with pressing buttons. You can just run to the other side of the stage and do shorthop aerials without fear of retaliation.

ALL of the characters in smash can do this, not just bayo. It's in the neutral game where pressing buttons matters.

The big thing people need to realize is that, yes, bayo has safe moves that are hard to punish on whiff. THATS THE IDEA. Like, of course the bayo player is going to use the best or safest option when they can and leave as little opening as possible. Thats how the neutral game in all fighting games works! Dont get mad at the bayo player for properly spacing dtilts or bairs and not just fully committing to an ftilt or smash attack just so you can get a hit in.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Who's mad at the players? I'm literally just stating the differences between her and Ryu. The comparison brought up earlier is so on point, she really is Ryu except she has much safer buttons which is what is irritating individuals. I don't stand to advocate for or justify any of this but I do intend on explaining it, and tbh it should make perfect sense.

Also worth noting on Mewtwo vs. Bayo is how many amazing projectiles in this game there are vs. how many amazing buttons this game has. That might be a fun comparison post, can someone do that?

 

[C0rvus]

But thats the thing about smash vs traditional fighters; you CAN get away with pressing buttons. You can just run to the other side of the stage and do shorthop aerials without fear of retaliation.

ALL of the characters in smash can do this, not just bayo. It's in the neutral game where pressing buttons matters.

The big thing people need to realize is that, yes, bayo has safe moves that are hard to punish on whiff. THATS THE IDEA. Like, of course the bayo player is going to use the best or safest option when the can and leave as little opening as possible. Thats how the nuetral game in all fighting games works! Dont get mad at the bayo player for properly spacing ditls or bairs and not just fully committing to an filt or smash ttack just so you can get a hit in.

I don't think anyone is getting mad at people playing the character properly. The fact of the matter is that Bayonetta's design actively makes her opponent fear over committing even a little bit, while she has some of the lowest commitment in the game, and that's on top of easily the best reward in the cast at the moment.

 

[BunbUn129]

uh hello?

can get 50%+ off a dtilt conversion ez. dtilt->nair->dtilt->nair->dtilt->nair(or however many reps you can do before you hit the end of the stage)->dtilt->nair->fair/bair. this also leaves you offstage and subject to strong edgeguarding. i'd actually say he's one of the very few characters in the cast that can actually keep up with damage output.

doesn't lack a disadvantage state and dies early. Being designed as a glass cannon, he needs to be able to rack on heavy amounts of damage--and that results in him having a balanced design.

is untouchable in disadvantage, and she murders everyone else in her advantage. That ain't balanced.

Stop comparing one aspect of these characters--you have to compare these characters as a whole. M2's damage racking is justified because he needs it to make up for his issues.

 

[teddystalin]

My point still stands. With his knowledge of the Ike/Rosa MU, whether or not it was Dabuz, the only reason I can see him using Corrin that match was to get a feel of the MU.

Either way, the original argument was that Ryo was getting better results with Corrin than Ike, when the only notable results are Diddy (tbf, it was just once, which isn't exactly surpassing his Ike results against Diddy in the past) and Sheik. He didn't get a better result against Rosa, and he got a worse result against Sonic.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing which character is better. I'm just saying Ryo's not exactly getting better results with Corrin compared to Ike. Let's not forget the results he got when he was solo maining Ike.

Idk, I think winners' side of a top 32 bracket at a stacked major is the time to pick a character you have the best chance of winning with, not the time to feel out an MU.

I agree with what you're getting at in general though. There's certainly an element of "hybrid vigor" from having multiple mains at top level in a game this matchup dependent. I don't think saying Ryo's results have improved after adding Corrin to his repertoire is meant to diminish his accomplishments with Ike before in the slightest. Like I said, I find it telling/interesting that he's choosing to use Corrin against notable top tier threats.

And nah, I'm not trying to start a feud here. I played Ike before Corrin came out and still play him now; I know what the man can do.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I don't think anyone is getting mad at people playing the character properly. The fact of the matter is that Bayonetta's design actively makes her opponent fear over committing even a little bit, while she has some of the lowest commitment in the game, and that's on top of easily the best reward in the cast at the moment.

Her commitment only seems so low because her neutral is so lackluster that its been isolated to only a few select moves.
-dtilt
-bair
-nair

Compare that to other characters like sheik, sonic, fox, or falcon and you can see she uses her low commitment moves because she literally has no other choice.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Idk, I think winners' side of a top 32 bracket at a stacked major is the time to pick a character you have the best chance of winning with, not the time to feel out an MU.

I get what you mean, but considering Dabuz has Ike experience and Ryo has lost to him before using Ike, it's not that surprising he would try out Corrin in that situation and catch him off-guard. It'd be more telling if Ryo ever decides to do it again.

Who knows, though. Time will tell.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm flattered but Mewtwo's punish game isn't on equal footing as Bayonetta. His whiff punishing ability is really good, but he can't really take a stock, unless he gets a Dair on you off an airdodge read at the end of the string (I JV3ed a guy once doing this, lol)

 

[C0rvus]

Most characters only have a few safe moves. I'm not sure why this makes Bayonetta so special. Very few characters have a ton of options in neutral that are safe. Are you insinuating that makes Bayonetta fair or something? I don't see your point. Heaven forbid her neutral was actually not any good, that might actually make her balanced.

Even the ones you listed are the same case. Falcon's back air > jabs is pretty safe, maybe one of his tilts, I don't even know. I'm not a Falcon player. Sonic? Fox? Come on, man. You act like they can get away with pressing all their buttons. Everyone has 1-3 moves a piece that are safe on shield.

Edit: Also you forgot Witch Twist, the biggest offender. She can also use her projectiles, Dive Kick, etc. Neutral is a bit more complex than you make it out to be.

 

[Y2Kay]

Also, just gonna point out that Mewtwo's down tilt and shadow ball have relatively always been like this, even before the over haul.

 

[adom4]

Also, just gonna point out that Mewtwo's down tilt and shadow ball have always been like this, even before the over haul.

Shadow ball got a size increase i think.

 

[Y2Kay]

Shadow ball got a size increase i think.

I was mainly talking about how little endlag it has, allowing him to camp, but yeah that's true

 

[C0rvus]

His dash speed increase helps him with the SB mixups too. Now he can hard follow them. Wasn't always the case. Also the fair buff was major.

Edit: And NAIR. My god, that move is stupid now. Likely the biggest buff in the recent patch. Abadango really showed that move's craziness off. Elevates his reward to new heights.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How different would ryu be if his air hados were replaced with angled ones like akuma uses in street fighter proper? would he be better or worse? I'd figure better since his air hados were already not amazing and it would give him an additional safe edgeguarding option.

I'm just kinda frustrated with how his aerial hadoukens are completely non-canon and dont appear in any game. Like making them function like akuma's is better than making them anti-canon.

Also, I havent paid much attention to the scene lately other than hear people pout about bayonetta being toxic good and sheik being not numbah 1 any more. Anyone clue me in on current events in the meta? also, out of personal interest, has there been much notable wario play recently?

Play a Marvel Vs game.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm not saying Mewtwo hasn't gotten that much better, but I felt like before these buffs Mewtwo wasn't as ridiculously garbage as people where claiming. He had some serious issues, and was kinda underwhelming overall. But I believe he was better than what the general consensus applied to him.

Shadow Ball was still good, Down tilt was still GDLK, but he just had a hard time getting enough reward for his troubles. Before the nerfs, I though he was just an average low tier with a good niche as an anti zoner in the meta.

In my opinion, people spent way too much time complaining about Mewtwo than actually trying to understand him. And this is most likely why he was "over buffed"
This isn't to pick on non-mewtwo mains though, some Mewtwo mains did this too.

People where complaining so much then about how terrible he was then, and now people are complaining post-POUND about how "over buffed" he is now. I'm dissappointed by the amount of complaining.

 

[NotLiquid]

Play a Marvel Vs game.

Well if we got vanilla-Wolverine in this game (Divekick Bayonetta) might as well get Akuma in here too. Pretty sure they're still reeling from the breakup.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Tbh I don't think there's an actual tier list right now and no definitive "best character in the game", hell I doubt any one of us can even agree on the top 5. What I think matters right now is who's semi-solo viable (because lets face it, nobody is solo viable right now) and who isn't.

 

[C0rvus]

To be fair, many people (myself included) had considered Mewtwo a solid upper-mid tier character last patch. Him getting buffed again and in the manner he did felt like too much. Because it was frivolous, he was already in the higher speed tiers, and the weight buff, while very small, did clash with his design intent. But it's whatever, the deed is done. Enjoy your high tier Mewtwo.

TheGoodGuava Sheik, Bayonetta, Cloud, Mario, and Diddy at the very least stand out to me as solo viable. They all had a shot at winning Pound. And Mewtwo won it all, with an MK for Rosalina, which he arguably didn't need. The Mewtwo/Rosa MU has been cited by Dabuz as even.

 

[Y2Kay]

To be fair, many people (myself included) had considered Mewtwo a solid upper-mid tier character last patch. Him getting buffed again and in the manner he did felt like too much. Because it was frivolous, he was already in the higher speed tiers, and the weight buff, while very small, did clash with his design intent. But it's whatever, the deed is done. Enjoy your high tier Mewtwo.

TheGoodGuava Sheik, Bayonetta, Cloud, Mario, and Diddy at the very least stand out to me as solo viable. They all had a shot at winning Pound. And Mewtwo won it all, with an MK for Rosalina, which he arguably didn't need. The Mewtwo/Rosa MU has been cited by Dabuz as even.

A lot of people, not necessarily this thread but in other parts of the community ("lower level players") though he was only mid tier at best and still got destroyed by top tiers.

I've also noticed how my anecdote is similar too , bar the massive over haul afterwards.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

To be fair, many people (myself included) had considered Mewtwo a solid upper-mid tier character last patch. Him getting buffed again and in the manner he did felt like too much. Because it was frivolous, he was already in the higher speed tiers, and the weight buff, while very small, did clash with his design intent. But it's whatever, the deed is done. Enjoy your high tier Mewtwo.

TheGoodGuava Sheik, Bayonetta, Cloud, Mario, and Diddy at the very least stand out to me as solo viable. They all had a shot at winning Pound. And Mewtwo won it all, with an MK for Rosalina, which he arguably didn't need. The Mewtwo/Rosa MU has been cited by Dabuz as even.

I would argue that Bayonetta isn't, if feel like a lot of people just don't know the MU. Just play lame af against her and you'll be fine but hey, that's just my opinion. Mario is good but I doubt he's solo viable, he hates swords and his recovery is sort of iffy (why don't people take advantage of it more often?)

 

[BlazGreen]

Tbh I don't think there's an actual tier list right now and no definitive "best character in the game", hell I doubt any one of us can even agree on the top 5. What I think matters right now is who's semi-solo viable (because lets face it, nobody is solo viable right now) and who isn't.

To be fair I think a lot of people would consider these the top ten characters at the moment.

Of course I don't want to sound like I'm speaking for everyone but it's what I've noticed from reading this thread for the past couple of weeks.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Most characters only have a few safe moves. I'm not sure why this makes Bayonetta so special. Very few characters have a ton of options in neutral that are safe. Are you insinuating that makes Bayonetta fair or something? I don't see your point. Heaven forbid her neutral was actually not any good, that might actually make her balanced.

It really isnt that good. I mean, I think I would know, being a bayonetta player and all. Do you play bayo at all?

Even the ones you listed are the same case. Falcon's back air > jabs is pretty safe, maybe one of his tilts, I don't even know. I'm not a Falcon player.

Neither am I. But I've practiced and played with nearly every character. Isnt that what everyone does...?

Anyway, jab, ftilt, nair, and bair are all pretty safe. Falcon can also create frame traps by simply holding jab.

Sonic? Fox? Come on, man. You act like they can get away with pressing all their buttons. Everyone has 1-3 moves a piece that are safe on shield.

I'm not talking about safe on shield. I'm talking about safe in neutral.

Edit: Also you forgot Witch Twist, the biggest offender. She can also use her projectiles, Dive Kick, etc. Neutral is a bit more complex than you make it out to be.

Witch twist and bullet climax are not moves you wanna just throw out in neutral. Divekick is safe in general, but hey, like you just said, "Everyone has 1-3 moves a piece that are safe on shield."

 

[TheGoodGuava]

To be fair I think a lot of people would consider these the top ten characters at the moment.

Of course I don't want to sound like I'm speaking for everyone but it's what I've noticed from reading this thread for the past couple of weeks.

But then there are issues with this like I could argue Ryu over Mario or MK because he has a punish game nearly on par with Bayonetta's, a slightly better neutral, and 2 frame 1 combo breakers, one of which is able to be comboed into and kills at like 70 or he could just combo soft fair -> nair - > dair at like 40 at the ledge and you're screwed

 

[Tri Knight]

Only on perfect shielding anyways, but as far as shielding only (no perfect shielding) and attacking, some characters aren't safe when going against shields against other characters; Cloud vs Samus has it to where no matter the range of the attack, and regardless of whether or not Samus perfect shields, Cloud's aerials are virtually unsafe. Samus perfect shields, Cloud's punished, Samus regular shields, Cloud's punished, and it doesn't matter the range.

I didn't nullify my argument, but if I had removed the perfect shielding part, then I would have had a more decent argument.



N-Air is best at punishing horizontal upwards recoveries, like Doctor Mario and Little Mac's. It's a gimping move.
Link's F-Air being a kill move is great against horizontal recoveries like Fox, Falco and especially Ryu's.
D-Air is an amazing stage spike move for how long the hitbox lasts, but it depends on which side the opponent's facing.

Reverse Up B (towards Blast Zone) is also a great mix up against high recoveries as it can also kill.

 

[BlazGreen]

Ryu really hasn't done much since the last patch dropped though and it doesn't help that 9B dropped him and Trela took a break (which he's thankfully back from now.) MK still has Leo winning Mexican majors and Mario has Ally who just took second at Pound. I don't see how Ryu can really challenge for their top ten placements when he doesn't show up.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ryu really hasn't done much since the last patch dropped though and it doesn't help that 9B dropped him and Trela took a break (which he's thankfully back from now.) MK still has Leo winning Mexican majors and Mario has Ally who just took second at Pound. I don't see how Ryu can really challenge for their top ten placements when he doesn't show up.

Results aren't everything my friend, they account for way to much other than just the character.

 

[BunbUn129]

Ryu really hasn't done much since the last patch dropped though and it doesn't help that 9B dropped him and Trela took a break (which he's thankfully back from now.) MK still has Leo winning Mexican majors and Mario has Ally who just took second at Pound. I don't see how Ryu can really challenge for their top ten placements when he doesn't show up.

Also Tyrant won Collegiate Colliseum pretty convincingly. Even after the nerf, MK's overall results have been stronger than Ryu's. Ryu was already in a bad spot compared to MK when 9B dropped him.

TheGoodGuava well results are needed. After all, you can't just make a conclusive argument off theory alone. I myself was guessing Ryu was better than MK after the nerf, but so far results aren't supporting that.

 

[warionumbah2]

Tier lists should really be based off MUs but whatever.

 

[BunbUn129]

Tier lists should really be based off MUs but whatever.

Well, MU's are supposed to take results into account. It's hard to decide an MU off theory-crafting by itself.

 

[C0rvus]

It really isnt that good. I mean, I think I would know, being a bayonetta player and all. Do you play bayo at all?

Neither am I. But I've practiced and played with nearly every character. Isnt that what everyone does...?

Anyway, jab, ftilt, nair, and bair are all pretty safe. Falcon can also create frame traps by simply holding jab.

I'm not talking about safe on shield. I'm talking about safe in neutral.

Witch twist and bullet climax are not moves you wanna just throw out in neutral. Divekick is safe in general, but hey, like you just said, "Everyone has 1-3 moves a piece that are safe on shield."

I have played Bayonetta, in fact. Her neutral only gets stronger when you realize her biggest strength is the fear she passively instills. The impending threat of Witch Time, Witch Twist, etc makes the opponent fear ever committing or trying to proactively bait; you know, play the neutral. Hell, even projectiles are rarely safe in their effective range.

I have played Falcon before, but I didn't want to say something incorrect about him because I don't play him regularly enough to know for sure.

If we aren't talking about safe on shield, that tends to bring the numbers down in most cases.

Witch Twist is safe. It also confirms into death combos. Why not throw it out? Or don't, but it's still the best OoS move in the game.
And Bullet Climax isn't amazing, but it can still control space and hit many characters at max range, and discourage/shut out short hop aerials.

I don't want to say you don't understand neutral very well and that you undersell your character. But that's kind of what I'm saying.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Also Tyrant won Collegiate Colliseum pretty convincingly. Even after the nerf, MK's overall results have been stronger than Ryu's. Ryu was already in a bad spot compared to MK when 9B dropped him.

TheGoodGuava well results are needed. After all, you can't just make a conclusive argument off theory alone. I myself was guessing Ryu was better than MK after the nerf, but so far results aren't supporting that.

Well that's mostly because there are like 4 notable Ryu players, the best just got back from a hiatus, and the second best dropped him for easymode-Ryu. The character has a high skill floor and a high skill cap, probably one of the highest in this game. That makes the character rather intimidating and scares people away from playing him, this is one of the situations where we NEED theory.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There is no reason to really discuss Ryu anymore. Bayo exists and is easier to play and has a more "smash character" feel to her. Less time and easier results. Its obvous which char between the two of them people will try to excel with.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

There is no reason to really discuss Ryu anymore. Bayo exists and is easier to play and has a more "smash character" feel to her. Less time and easier results. Its obvous which char between the two of them people will try to excel with.

is this b8

Ryu = melee fox
Bayonetta = melee falco

 

[BunbUn129]

is this b8

Ryu = melee fox
Bayonetta = melee falco

Nah, he's just doing his best to ensure Ryu stays in the shadows and avoids the nerf hammer. Smart stuff, Emblemlord, I like that.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Nah, he's just doing his best to ensure Ryu stays in the shadows and avoids the nerf hammer. Smart stuff, Emblemlord, I like that.

oooooooooo
theres no reason to nerf Ryu without changing half his ****

 

[DblCrest]

Nah, he's just doing his best to ensure Ryu stays in the shadows and avoids the nerf hammer. Smart stuff, Emblemlord, I like that.

Was about to saaaaaaay.
But he's right anyway. People will most likely flock to Bayo over Ryu. Then people will sleep on him.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I have played Bayonetta, in fact. Her neutral only gets stronger when you realize her biggest strength is the fear she passively instills. The impending threat of Witch Time, Witch Twist, etc makes the opponent fear ever committing or trying to proactively bait; you know, play the neutral. Hell, even projectiles are rarely safe in their effective range.

Then thats something people need to get over.

I got over my fear of sheik when I realized that she cant reliably kill (especially not now). So I almost always go bowser against her. Thats not a "bayonetta is OP" thing, thats a "player mentality" thing. There is a difference between respecting moves and fearing them.

I dont fear a falcon punch or warlock punch, but I respect them.

Witch Twist is safe. It also confirms into death combos. Why not throw it out? Or don't, but it's still the best OoS move in the game.

I dont throw it out because I'm not a scrub. Why throw out a move if it's not going to hit? Be it safe in shield or safe on whiff, I try not to just throw out moves because there is ALWAYS a chance of me getting counter-hit or punished in a way I may not have been anticipating.

And Bullet Climax isn't amazing, but it can still control space and hit many characters at max range, and discourage/shut out short hop aerials.

Max range? Um, it's angled, remember? It'll only hit the tallest of characters at "max range," and even then, they can just crouch under it.

It's more for harassing people offstage, and even then, you're usually better off just jumping off and nairing people.

Her projectile is strong, but it's not nearly as good as people seem to think it is.

 

[Nobie]

People talking like Mewtwo doesn't have to commit to anything.

Mewtwo's LIFE is a commitment.

Every time you jump to follow someone, you HAVE to take into account how bad Mewtwo's aerial acceleration is.

Every time you whiff a grab, that might just be the end of your stock.

Every time your air dodge, you have to take into account that a meaty hitbox is your worst enemy.

Mewtwo has a bunch of safe moves, but you can't really spam them or use them thoughtlessly.

 

[Megamang]

Re: You can't just throw Witch Twist out in neutral.

The bayonetta with the best results almost all do this. Thats the entire complaint. That the risk reward is so, so skewed, her gameplan is just force Witch Twist down your throat for a kill, and if she starts failing too hard at this, then you Witch Time for a kill. If you knock her into the air, beware a dive kick, since if you get dive kicked above sea level you also die.


I'm not saying its fair/unfair, or trying to make a point about her players. Just trying to explain what the complaints are. She is playing a different game. Another character was added, Ryu, and he played a different game. But this had its flaws as much as its benefits (worst air accel, bad rolls, at the time hitlag...) wheras bayonetta comes in, forces you to respect her, but she barely respects you at all.

I think the only thing that could change would be divekick bringing you not as high so the followups are damage based and not roofios, or Witch Twist's hitboxes being less... extremely stupid. You can just straight up Witch Twist into a Cloud Dair. What is that?

 

[Amadeus9]

is this b8

Ryu = melee fox
Bayonetta = melee falco

What the ****? How does that make any sense at all. That's not even slightly applicable.