Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

vs is even. Unsure why would complain. He can camp reliably and pressure him well.

Not sure if this is why, but some might be basing their Sonic experience off of online play, where Sonic's speed + lag ambiguity makes you want to jump off a building.

Edit: It also requires actually understanding Sonic and how deceptive the character's animations can be.

No one is more vulnerable to Hypno Punch at the ledge than Mewtwo.

 

[Megamang]

Megaman claims an even MU with Sonic (not sure how sonics feel about this) and it feels easier with Megaman, or like you have more opportunity to make mistakes and still survive.

The f-smash on the ledge is truly fearsome against Mewtwo if the Sonic knows the timing, and what angles will have snap invincibility and which don't. He is one of the only characters that really feels like he is outspeeding mewtwo as well, which is something that makes any MU difficult (since we just talked so much about mobility being so important).

Not saying its not even, but it brings to mind a quote earlier in this thread where someone said personal difficulty can run differently than actual character difficulty, and that their 'hardest' MU was a 50/50 even though their character had losing MUs.


Its just hard to damage sonic if he knows how to place himself and use his shield, and mewtwo's dashgrab/standing grab are both kinda meh.

 

[Chalice]

And even with his faster attacks, you cannot afford to have any of your attacks blocked. If Cloud even has his B-Air blocked, he's going to get punished.

Cloud's frame data isn't all that great either; it's average between good and bad, due to having its share of slow attacks.

Are you real?

All of his aerials except Uair since it was nerfed are safe on block when spaced. He's a spacing character anyway so you should always be using the max reach. If they block, sure, what are they going to do? Run into something else because his "good/bad frame data" gives him low ending lag on ALL his aerials? Enabling him to run/hit/shield them before they punish him?

Look at any tournament match with Tweek and tell me how many times when he spaces a Bair does he get actually wrecked for it.

Based on this, I have reason to believe you are playing Cloud like And you just don't do that

 

[Gawain]

Are you real?

All of his aerials except Uair since it was nerfed are safe on block when spaced. He's a spacing character anyway so you should always be using the max reach. If they block, sure, what are they going to do? Run into something else because his "good/bad frame data" gives him low ending lag on ALL his aerials? Enabling him to run/hit/shield them before they punish him?

Look at any tournament match with Tweek and tell me how many times when he spaces a Bair does he get actually wrecked for it.

Based on this, I have reason to believe you are playing Cloud like And you just don't do that

Except, you don't play Roy like that either. And this line of thinking is probably why this thread has such hilariously skewed opinions about the character. People shouldn't talk about characters they don't understand. You and him both.

 

[Megamang]

We can all agree Radical Larry has an unorthodox approach to this game. I personally really hope he goes through with his word, and participates at EvO next year... until then, lets not let it derail the thread.

---

I'm glad im not the only one who thinks Palutena is good against Mewtwo. The reflector is only a part of it... and reflectors in his bad MU's are more like, denying his trump card. Lots of MUs feel like they would be -1 or worse, but shadow ball controls their approach and does ludicrous amounts of shield and direct damage throughout the match, and often gets a kill or two to boot, so the match is closer to even. When they also have a reflector, its means you don't control the pacing so much, so its tough. My real problem with Palutena though is the aerials, they are so good at poking and Mewtwo's big body... Also, most people who try and zone break me get a shadow claw to the face, but Pally gets to dash attack in and I just see the SC dink off uselessly, which is a total rarity. Though I have always thought Palutena is no where near the bottom of the cast, this is a niche im surprised she shines in.

Both DLC monsters have somewhat limited grab games, so it seems like the meta is again shifting back towards shielding. Then, we have characters like Diddy DK, Palutena, Mario, Bowser, Robin, Ike, ROB, Captain Falcon, Lucas, and Mewtwo, who love these opportunities, and are grabbing people left and right.



Dunno what im getting at, I just want to start a conversation that isn't a response to bad trolling about Cloud's 'unsafe aerials'. cmon, that should be the line where its too obvious to you guys.

 

[Gawain]

< 35:
= 35 (FAF = 36):
None(all > 35):
Has an aerial lasting >= 20 frames:
I'm not going to list what aerials they are, but their mains probably know already.

Just pointing out that this list isn't exactly accurate. Roy's fair has an FAF of 30, for example. Not sure if there are others on that, but there's one.

 

[Megamang]

And megaman's aerial <35 FAF is nair... which is kinda true, kinda not. You can use it to gimp some characters/eat their airdodge with some success, but against others (such as Cloud, who I believe started this discussion) can swat megaman's nair away no problem.

He does a little better with lingering aerials. (To be totally fair here, ARGHETH did mention lingering aerials may not be on the list, but are useful). Hitting with late fair kinda nudges them back, which is a death sentence to those with poor air accel or recovery in general. If they try and dodge the late part of fair, nair or another fair can knock them back for dodging.


A big issue is actually getting someone to a position that you can do all these things. Often its more like airdodge (can fade forwards or backwards and still recover, adding another mixup) into instant up B. and lots of up Bs are really safe and beat out your hitboxes. Some can knock you into the bottom of the stage, making you regret your attempt completely.

Then you have cool tools like Hard Knuckle, that let you shoot death at people from above, and then still cover the ledge! Tools like this and bowling ball would be totally broken if it weren't for strong recovery hitboxes and magno-ledges.

 

[Blobface]

< 35:
= 35 (FAF = 36):
None(all > 35):
Has an aerial lasting >= 20 frames:
I'm not going to list what aerials they are, but their mains probably know already.

Under these criteria, that's 46 (fox is there twice lol) characters with the tools to directly contest airdodges offstage. Even then, of the characters in the "None" category, only Bowser, Fox, Greninja, and Ike jump out as having a limited offstage game, and even they have some good tools.

 

[ARGHETH]

Just pointing out that this list isn't exactly accurate. Roy's fair has an FAF of 30, for example. Not sure if there are others on that, but there's one.

Under these criteria, that's 46 (fox is there twice lol) characters with the tools to directly contest airdodges offstage. Even then, of the characters in the "None" category, only Bowser, Fox, Greninja, and Ike jump out as having a limited offstage game, and even they have some good tools.

I KNEW I MISSED SOMETHING.
(fixed)

 

[Kofu]

Except, you don't play Roy like that either. And this line of thinking is probably why this thread has such hilariously skewed opinions about the character. People shouldn't talk about characters they don't understand. You and him both.

Then explain. Clearly no one here knows how to play Roy.

My understanding of the character is that he's a rushdown/pressure character who happens to use a sword, giving him a little more safety and range than other characters of the archetype like Fox. He wants to be close to the opponent since his attacks at max range are overall weak (but not useless). His mobility to chase people down is excellent, he has a good mixup-based grab game, and has solid tools to kill from baiting airdodges. The startup on his attacks, high gravity, and poor landing options means he sometimes has to work to get in and has a hard time escaping disadvantage.

Am I wrong? Tell me where I'm wrong and why. I think the character is usable but also has clear weaknesses.

 

[SaltyKracka]

On the subject of Mewtwo.

It's clearly been the winner of the last two patches, is probably the clearest example anybody has ever been handed of the importance of mobility and speed in Smash, and is certainly not anywhere near low or even bottom tier anymore thanks to the buffs.

Thinking on this brings me to raise the question...what is there to be done about heavyweights? By this I mean the characters in the cast which almost by definition have limited or no access to the strongest tool in the game (which is to say, mobility). If we ever want to see some of the lesser ones be competitively viable, what must be done with or to them? Is it necessary to give them speed and mobility, or does more power need to be pumped into the things that they already do well (damage, range, guaranteed combos or early kill setups) in an attempt not to 'ruin their designs' by generalizing them? How much is complexity, combo potential, and kill power worth compared to the safety and power raw mobility and speedy moves grant?

 

[TurboLink]

You also need to consider fall speed for this. Meta Knight falls too fast and he might have multiple jumps but his jumps aren't all that high and his air speed isn't that good either. He'll probably need to use multiple jumps to get close to the opponent again. Which'll take even more frames. He'd be better off baiting out air dodges.

Roy also falls really fast and has a worse recovery than Meta Knight.

Ryu's jump carries a lot of commitment. He probably won't be able to catch the opponent before they can air dodge again or even get back to the ledge.

 

[J-Lit]

Why would Fox go up though? Sheik still dunks on him hard offstage and yes she has lost her easy down throw to up air kill confirm, but you have to remember that Fox is a light character who also has the rare trait of being a fast faller.

I would like to see a Sheik player like Void go up against Larry.

Void vs Larry is like the so-cal classic. You can probably find tons of old sets on YouTube if they uploaded them. Larry used to beat Void most of the time with fox and was #1 on the pr. More recently, void powered up with shiek and Larry uses DK against him occasionally. I think void has also tried the fox ditto and won it a few times.

As far as the shiek fox matchup goes, it seems pretty tough for fox especially against a player like void who knows how to combo fast fallers and edgeguard well. However, fox has a good enough neutral to keep up with shiek and can kill at earlier percents. Larry somehow manages to 0-death even the best shiek players when he's feeling himself.

 

[sedrf]

So I was in the chat of msm and Pinkfresh was there. People gaved him questions about pound and why hepicked up bayo. Pink said he liked the games bayo was in. He also said bayo should receive q nerf on witch twist and change to the air dive kick.Void came in and said:

bayo is fine

Some people questioned him and pink said he only suggested because of the good of the community/enjoyment.
Void replied that the community should change to adapt to bayo.
Do you think the community is willing to change or come to grumbly accept bayo as a part of the game and look for more options?

 

[BunbUn129]

You also need to consider fall speed for this. Meta Knight falls too fast and he might have multiple jumps but his jumps aren't all that high and his air speed isn't that good either. He'll probably need to use multiple jumps to get close to the opponent again. Which'll take even more frames. He'd be better off baiting out air dodges.

Roy also falls really fast and has a worse recovery than Meta Knight.

Ryu's jump carries a lot of commitment. He probably won't be able to catch the opponent before they can air dodge again or even get back to the ledge.

Meta Knight doesn't really fall that fast (1.66, at 16th). His air speed and acceleration are average (most other jumpies suck here). Meta Knight's air mobility stats aren't an issue because, of course, he has multiple jumps. In fact, MK's aerial mobility is very good for a multi-jumper; only surpasses him here (but Jiggs isn't relevant so bleh). Compare that to who move like molasses through the air.


MK has to use most of his jumps to edge-guard, but he has 3 recovery specials so that doesn't carry much commitment at all.


When it comes to edge-guarding, a character's gravity usually matters more than their top falling speed. has the 2nd fastest fall speed, but his gravity is average, which mitigates his air speed somewhat. have really good edge-guarding because they have good air acceleration and low gravity, despite having only average air speed and falling speed. 's recovery and edge-guarding are helped by his gravity being low relative to his fall speed. is tied for the 5th highest gravity, despite having the 24th fastest fall speed; combined with his low air acceleration, this holds back an otherwise strong offstage game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So I was in the chat of msm and Pinkfresh was there. People gaved him questions about pound and why hepicked up bayo. Pink said he liked the games bayo was in. He also said bayo should receive q nerf on witch twist and change to the air dive kick.Void came in and said:

Some people questioned him and pink said he only suggested because of the good of the community/enjoyment.
Void replied that the community should change to adapt to bayo.
Do you think the community is willing to change or come to grumbly accept bayo as a part of the game and look for more options?

Of course bayo nerfs to certain tools would be healthier for the game and it would be silly to suggest otherwise, but as a player you shouldn't count on nerfs and adapt to her as best you can. So Void is absolutely correct from the perspective of a competitor and wrong from the perspective of a game designer.

 

[Megamang]

Yea, its not like Bayonetta is unbeatable (this phrase is too common...) but she is annoying to deal with. A few changes so there is more incentive to go in and bully her (really just slower WTwist from the ground would do this) rather than just sit back and be supremely safe, and rack damage with grabs, would go a long way in making the community happier with her without ruining her chances in the meta.

I like the shakeups, I don't understand how you can get used to being knocked around by shiek and then raise hell when that changes. Both players have admirable attitudes here, Pink Fresh for valuing the community over his own success and Void for realizing that its a personal battle to best Bayonetta, and one that can be won.


Witch Time adjustments, and her side B getting some punishable frames, have gone a great way. I think someone here suggested that both her and her opponent shouldn't jump so high when a dive kick is landed, and I would like this. This would reduce her combo's directly killing off the roof, but would still allow them to be potent/allow her to enjoy her divekick as she should.

On the player side, one should learn to spotdodge the divekicks so you don't just let them bounce safely off of shield, although the timing for doing this and not getting hit with the ground hitbox is rather annoying. Also, learning to watch her for when she will be landing with lots of lag (I see the full 4+ specials huge lag punished with dashgrab TOO MUCH!)

The community is fine, we are in a better place each patch, people complaining about pay2win either are clueless or trolling.

 

[my_T]

Then explain. Clearly no one here knows how to play Roy.

My understanding of the character is that he's a rushdown/pressure character who happens to use a sword, giving him a little more safety and range than other characters of the archetype like Fox. He wants to be close to the opponent since his attacks at max range are overall weak (but not useless). His mobility to chase people down is excellent, he has a good mixup-based grab game, and has solid tools to kill from baiting airdodges. The startup on his attacks , high gravity, and poor landing options means he sometimes has to work to get in and has a hard time escaping disadvantage.

Am I wrong? Tell me where I'm wrong and why. I think the character is usable but also has clear weaknesses.

I have to say you're wrong about his start up. Excluding dair, all of his other aerials are quite fast. Nair starts at frame 6, Uair starts at frame 5, Bair frame 8, Fair frame 10.

his ground moves have average start-up with the exception of Utilt (frame 6, kills with sweet spot). All of his smashes have decent speed (slightly better than average). Up-B starts at frame 9; for comparison, luigis fire jump punch and MK's shuttle loop start at frame 8.

 

[Megamang]

Its more like he is missing that one piece of a f3/2/1 Jab or comparable OOS option. His are alright but don't escape combos as well as Yoshi/Luigi/Mario/Doc.

Its a common theme with swordies, since if you get past their wall they shouldn't also be boxing masters. Roy could have this IMO, since he holds with reverse grip anyways. His jab is not bad though, kinda safe and it confirms into Blazer for kills, right?

 

[Pancracio17]

So I was in the chat of msm and Pinkfresh was there. People gaved him questions about pound and why hepicked up bayo. Pink said he liked the games bayo was in. He also said bayo should receive q nerf on witch twist and change to the air dive kick.Void came in and said:

Some people questioned him and pink said he only suggested because of the good of the community/enjoyment.
Void replied that the community should change to adapt to bayo.
Do you think the community is willing to change or come to grumbly accept bayo as a part of the game and look for more options?

So as a bayo player i think she is fine and not at the same time, she exploits bad player's habits stronger than anyone and thats good because they can learn and be better and bad because its too easy to beat a avarage player with her. Then comes the problem that she is not fun to fight or watch and IDC that much but increasing her risk should fix that, more endlag in a landing divekick and such.

Bayo is beatable because she can be exploited by playing it 100% safe. So she is "fine" in they way that if you play correctly, you should win.

 

[ARISTOS]

is alright, though I don't know if I would call it one of the best. Turnips+Floated Aerials can stuff options and make recovering hell but because all aerials take quite a bit of time you generally only get one chance with an aerial before you need to recover.

 

[C0rvus]

I was watching some of NinjaLink's Pound analysis stream and he was pointing out some holes and bad DI that top players were doing against Saj/Pink Fresh. There are many places to improve in the Bayonetta matchup, in ways that top players haven't gotten down yet. Stuff like good DI will become standard in the future. It gets better, guys, even without a nerf. I'm not even fully convinced she's the best character in the game at the moment. She certainly seems to be dominating a few regions.

 

[Megamang]

It seems like there would be a point where good enough SDI got you mathematically too far for a certain part of the combo, since her distance covered is mostly by her specials in a burst movement, then she is actually pretty slow to drift around trying to link stuff.

Did Aerolink say which way people should be SDI'ing? I find myself trying different things, but as always its hard to tell how much is up to the Bayonetta's execution rather than my SDI.

 

[juddy96]

MSM weekly is over, and K9, straight off the East Coast, wins via a bracket reset over Rich Brown http://challonge.com/msm44singles

Note: In the winner's interview, K9 was asked to place Mewtwo in the tier list from his experiences fighting Abadango and Rich Brown. He said around top 15.

 

[Megamang]

Damn, so the real question is, if mewtwo is top 15 (I'm not thinking its impossible...) then who does he edge out, of the commonly accepted top 15?

Do we still believe pika is up there? What about Ryu? Ness? Those are my suspects.

 

[ARISTOS]

Damn, so the real question is, if mewtwo is top 15 (I'm not thinking its impossible...) then who does he edge out, of the commonly accepted top 15?

Do we still believe pika is up there? What about Ryu? Ness? Those are my suspects.

Top 15 is a ballpark; the exact number doesn't matter too much, much like how bottom 5 doesn't really matter, we just know who isn't good. That being said, I do think he's better than Pikachu-I think Ryu's have a lot of room to grow and Ness's kit is just too solid and adaptable to various game plans to ever be bad

is clearly strong and really only loses to rushdown. I do worry about consistency due to lightness but if he's not cornered he can kinda just teleport out of trouble- teleports in this game are just all kinds of strong.

 

[Djent]

In order to locate Mewtwo, I just decided to make a quick top 15 list for which I expect to be crucified in the morning

Spoiler: Top 15

Made it (roughly ordered):
Just missed the cut:

IOW, I think he's sitting just outside of top 10, but securely in top 15. The characters he beats out are still very solid picks but suffer a bit from nerfs or a few bad matchups. If I had to make up half-assed tier boundaries, I'd probably go with S (1, Bayo), A+ (3, Diddy), A (9, Sonic), and A- (13, Kamui). The six who "missed the cut" could wind up being incorporated in the bottom of A- or the top of B+ and are effectively caught in limbo between high and upper-mid tiers. These estimates factor in both "recent" results (1.1.3 onwards) and matchup theory. For instance, the "missed the cut" group tends to struggle significantly in a few matchups without any huge redeeming advantages a la Rosa or MK. OTOH the top 8 or so characters rarely lose to anyone except each other.

EDIT: Added DK and fixed sloppy wording.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Damn, so the real question is, if mewtwo is top 15 (I'm not thinking its impossible...) then who does he edge out, of the commonly accepted top 15?

Do we still believe pika is up there? What about Ryu? Ness? Those are my suspects.

Pikachus MU spread is too good for him to not be top 15 but since everyone here is so obsessed with results and the fact that potentially the best edgeguarder in the game has no reliable kill confirms a lot of people probably will place him lower

 

[Megamang]

Or perhaps his alleged MU spread is too good for the results he gets? He does have some significant problems, and the fact that people get better at avoiding his kill setups every day is one of them.

And it is hard to say who is the best edgeguarder. Like most things in this game, it really comes down to matchup and how tools interact. Pika gives certain characters (Captain Falcon, Ganon, Maybe Ryu?) lots of trouble each time they recover, and can win games from this advantage alone. On the other hand, there are some characters which basically only get gimped by pikachu if they did something really wrong, such as Shiek, ZSS, Maybe Bayonetta?. Having characters that can avoid your trump killing card hurts when your next best option is a read... and you are surrounded by kill confirmers who can safely fish for their kill while you have to avoid that, and you have to read beyond that and somehow land a smash? It aint easy. Pikachu never had results indicating he went even with Shiek, its just widely believed because his best player is strongly optimistic about the character. While I see this as a good thing, and definitely something that plays into ESAM's skill, I don't think it should let his followers claim he has no bad MUs and get away with it, when lots of characters outdo pika in meaningful ways.

 

[NairWizard]

Let's stop this before someone claims that up-throw Thunder is real again

Pikachu discussion tends to be the lowest point of this thread when it's not calling for nerfs

 

[Rizen]

If I had to name the single best edge guarder right now, it would be Villager. Fast disjointed projectile F/Bair, great U/D/Nairs too, insane recovery for going deep and returning, bowling ball that spawns a killer projectile, dash attack pots that fall like turnips, and timber. Like someone said in the past (who was that again?) he has it all.

 

[Routa]

If I had to name the single best edge guarder right now, it would be Villager. Fast disjointed projectile F/Bair, great U/D/Nairs too, insane recovery for going deep and returning, bowling ball that spawns a killer projectile, dash attack pots that fall like turnips, and timber. Like someone said in the past (who was that again?) he has it all.

And then you realize that Mii Gunner exists. Recovering against Mii Gunner is one of the hardest things to do. Constant pressure created by wall of projectiles. Uair that covers air dodges. Bomb Drop which covers low recoveries. Fair, Granades and Missiles make recovering straight to the ledge near impossible.

Tbh I could see Gunner being THE BEST edgeguarder. Note: "could".

Edit: totally not biased

 

[Kofu]

I have to say you're wrong about his start up. Excluding dair, all of his other aerials are quite fast. Nair starts at frame 6, Uair starts at frame 5, Bair frame 8, Fair frame 10.

his ground moves have average start-up with the exception of Utilt (frame 6, kills with sweet spot). All of his smashes have decent speed (slightly better than average). Up-B starts at frame 9; for comparison, luigis fire jump punch and MK's shuttle loop start at frame 8.

As I was writing that I knew that someone would correct me on startup, lol. I mean, it's based off of Marth and he has rather good startup. Must just be a "feel" thing for me, IDK.

 

[meleebrawler]

On the subject of Mewtwo.

It's clearly been the winner of the last two patches, is probably the clearest example anybody has ever been handed of the importance of mobility and speed in Smash, and is certainly not anywhere near low or even bottom tier anymore thanks to the buffs.

Thinking on this brings me to raise the question...what is there to be done about heavyweights? By this I mean the characters in the cast which almost by definition have limited or no access to the strongest tool in the game (which is to say, mobility). If we ever want to see some of the lesser ones be competitively viable, what must be done with or to them? Is it necessary to give them speed and mobility, or does more power need to be pumped into the things that they already do well (damage, range, guaranteed combos or early kill setups) in an attempt not to 'ruin their designs' by generalizing them? How much is complexity, combo potential, and kill power worth compared to the safety and power raw mobility and speedy moves grant?

DK has plenty of mobility, so does Charizard after his airspeed buff and even Bowser has semi-decent mobility, only Dedede and Ganondorf have very bad mobility.

What they all need addressed is their status as combo food undermining their survivability advantage.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

DK has plenty of mobility, so does Charizard after his airspeed buff and even Bowser has semi-decent mobility, only Dedede and Ganondorf have very bad mobility.

What they all need addressed is their status as combo food undermining their survivability advantage.

Well being combo food isn't necessarily a bad thing for say, Charizard (just because I know the most about him)
Playing defensively I'll live well past max rage, usually near 200%. Combo oriented characters who aren't named Ryu aren't very good at sealing the stock before that point and at that point his grab becomes terrifying, killing at >100 and even earlier still with platforms. He also has a rather high damage output so it ends up being easy for him to get the opponent to kill percent. Survivability in this game is more beneficial than any other game because of rage and characters with kill throws benefit even more

 

[Yikarur]

I think it's super interesting to not be sure about who the best character is.
I think Sheik might still be the best character but needs even more skill than before. She will surely drop in mid-level play and thus she will probably lack results in the long run. What Mr-R did at Pound was impressive beyond my expectactions. It felt like his Sheik became even better because of the patch, because his utilizing all of the crazy options sheik provides.
Bayonetta will probably be high in results because her reward is great while most people don't play the MU correctly. A bit like Yoshi in very early days When I'm watching matches of her people are still not punishing her 30+ lag on landing after a combo, are still getting upB2 to upair'd at non-combo% etc. This character has more room for optimization but the same goes for the opponent. But we can safely assume this is a Top Tier character.
Diddy Kong has Top2 neutral in the game and no one is using Diddy to his full potential. I think Diddy is an insane character with way too many options and a very high skill ceiling. I expect a rise in results. Diddy Kong is already dominating Germany (cyve) and France (Phogos) and I wouldn't be surprised if more regions will be added to that list in the future.

I think this 3 characters share "S-Tier" right now.

 

[HeavyLobster]

In order to locate Mewtwo, I just decided to make a quick top 15 list for which I expect to be crucified in the morning

Spoiler: Top 15

Made it (roughly ordered):
Just missed the cut:

IOW, I think he's sitting just outside of top 10, but securely in top 15. The characters he beats out are still very solid picks but suffer a bit from nerfs or a few bad matchups. If I had to make up half-***** tier boundaries, I'd probably go with S (1, Bayo), A+ (3, Diddy), A (9, Sonic), and A- (13, Kamui). The three who "missed the cut" could wind up being incorporated in the bottom of A- or the top of B+ and are effectively caught in limbo between high and upper-mid tiers. These estimates factor in both "recent" results (1.1.3 onwards) and matchup theory. For instance, the characters who "missed the cut" tend to struggle significantly in a few matchups without any huge redeeming advantages a la Rosa or MK. OTOH the top 8 or so characters barely lose to anyone except each other.

EDIT: Added DK.

What notable solo national Corrin results has she earned to put her over Ness? All I've really seen is her being used as a Mario CP for ESAM. The only other part of your list that could really be debatable is Toon Link vs. Pika, mostly due to Hyuga's recent results, and I could see both sides to this one, but unless everyone else here knows something I don't, I don't understand what Corrin has done to warrant consensus top 15 status.

 

[Flux0r]

Well being combo food isn't necessarily a bad thing for say, Charizard (just because I know the most about him)
Playing defensively I'll live well past max rage, usually near 200%. Combo oriented characters who aren't named Ryu aren't very good at sealing the stock before that point and at that point his grab becomes terrifying, killing at >100 and even earlier still with platforms. He also has a rather high damage output so it ends up being easy for him to get the opponent to kill percent. Survivability in this game is more beneficial than any other game because of rage and characters with kill throws benefit even more

I think you're really underselling how dramatic the "combo food" trait can be in some situations. It won't matter if you're never getting hit, but you most likely will.

Take Fox and Falco in Melee. They are unarguably the best, even by a considerable margin. So why aren't they winning every tourney left and right? Beacuse they're often as good as dead if a Marth were to grab them on Final Destination, meanwhile floaties like Peach and Puff get away with some damage.

Being a fat target doesn't help either. In fact, Bayonetta's most known 0-Death combos can be DIed, so you're stuck with at least 40-50 damage instead of a lost stock. Charizard and other super-heavyweights WILL die if the Bayonetta performs it correctly, as they will still get hit with good DI because of their large bodies and combo food trait.

Zero Suit Samus's Boost Kick connects alot better on them as well. Sheik can be patient and swat you at high-percentages.

Fox get's comboed badly in SSB4 as well, but he has options to break free. The super-heavyweights don't have that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The only other part of your list that could really be debatable is Toon Link vs. Pika, mostly due to Hyuga's recent results [...]

Just wanted to chip in here to say that the two strongest regions in Japan both have Toon Link players getting as high as 2nd at tournaments with some pretty impressive wins each. As far as raw results go Toon Link has Pikachu, as well as a good chunk of other characters, beaten quite solidly.

 

[wpwood]

A little late as usual, but Palutena has a decent edge guard game from my experience. Her recovery has good reach which allows her to go pretty far out to push the opponent farther out. Oddly enough up smash can catch the 2 frame recovery on certain characters and can hit some hanging opponents. Like Falcon's dair, her dair can hit through the stage and spike an opponent as they snap to the ledge, but only last 1 frame so it's a tight window to land. Nair actually kills now and on recoveries with a hit box it can semi-spike if she's hit out of it because it's a multi-hit move. Bair can challenge people that like to throw out an aerial before returning to the stage or on recoveries where nair wouldn't be the best option. For lols the windbox on reflect and f-smash can push people away from the stage so that they can't recover. If Palutena gets knocked away from the ledge, she could ledge cancel warp to get back fast enough to continue her edge guard or she could just ledge cancel warp into an aerial to throw a person off. I guess I covered everything.