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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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HeavyLobster

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well if they nerfed bayo, the next character to hate will be :rosalina:, i doubt it will be :4cloud:the majority of top players like him becuase is the only character that resembles melee marth.
Rosa will always be hated simply because the MU is so awkward in general and needs to be practiced. Also she's not quite as common as other high tiers. Right now she's mostly pretty manageable, as the shieldstun patch made it a lot easier for much of the cast to safely get rid of Luma.
 

Radical Larry

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:4link:'s Bow & Arrow would be pretty good at edgeguarding if he could actually aim his bow in all eight directions.
Or just don't charge it at all and let it fall with a little accuracy. That screws characters like Doc, Cloud and Little Mac over really good; low-knockback moves that stop momentum really do hurt them, especially if said move has horizontal KB.
 
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NotLiquid

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Cloud is one of the most hated and one of the easiest character to play. Cloud is not more favorable for players and audiences lol
Cloud Hate is just overshadowed by Bayonetta hate right now.
I never said Cloud fostered no hate what so ever - especially if we start talking Doubles meta. Eventually when you actually get to top tiers there will always be a character that you can safely say people "hate" to varying degrees. But Cloud is a character that a lot of top players have had comparatively little qualms in picking up and dabbling with to certain extents, which is why players have come to enjoy utilizing him. Not to mention, several mains of him such as M2K suggesting people aren't exploiting his recovery enough is a clear contrast to most counter strategies Bayonetta fosters, a lot of which usually boils down to "DI or Die".

Point was more that he's a top quality character many people will end up consider playing more in contrast to Bayonetta who has limited appeal despite her top qualities. I also doubt that reason purely boils down to him being easy to use, as one of the most common arguments leveled against Bayonetta is that her any-to-deaths are braindead (something that made ZeRo specifically spend an entire portion of a video defending pre-patch Sheik).
 
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Routa

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Swordfighter a character that has been doomed to be considered to be bottom tier by the community.

Anyways Swordfighter contains a lot of very good edgeguarding tools such as: Chakram (most versatile projectile which can be angled and chosen between slow multihit or single hit quick one), Gale strike (floating multihiting tornado which sends enemies upwards), Power Thrust (works the same as Ganondorf's and Faptain's Down-B), Counter (well counter is counter), Reversal Slash (works the same way as Mario's Cape with stalling and all), Dair (can lead into footstool kill like Kirby's), Fair (works the same way as Pit's), Nair (covers Swordfighter's whole body and used the same way as Ike's Nair), Bair (amazing kill power which makes it exccelent for ledge trump and stage spiking) and Uair (for dem high recoveries and mix up edgeguarding against people recovering to the ledge). Swordfighter is a master of near the ledge edgeguardging. A good Swordfighter is always near the ledge when his foe is recovering. His Dair is one of thous Dairs which you should not try to challenge (usually Swordfighter ends up winnig or trading). Chakrams create constant pressure to the recovering foe. Most of people try to recovery low, which is not the best idea against Swordfighter. If you want to make sure you don't get edgeguarded recover as high as possible. Even tho Swordfighter's Uair is hella strong he still has hard time landing it due to his slow movement speed and frame 7 jumpsquat (great idea to give a combo heavy character a frame 7 jump). He also kinda struggles against foes who can throw out huge hitboxes while recovering due to his lack of range and the fact that Chakram looses to pretty much every attack. But anyways a good Swordfighter tries to get his foe off stage all the time, due to his edgeguarding game being so strong (and the fact that it is the best way to get kills with Swordfighter... He lacks reliable kill moves). Also with a correct Up-B he is able to go for deep edgeguard with Dair.

TL;DR: Don't recover low or straight for the ledge when Swordfighter has you off-stage.

Edit: yeah... I ain't that good when it comes to writing stuff :S
 
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BSP

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Also, is it just me or could Ally work on optimizing his combos a bit more? Oftentimes he doesnt seem to get as much out of them as he could and doesnt he pick suboptimal followups out of d-throw quite a lot? His Mario is so slick but it still seems a bit lacking in that regard, even though he played like a menace at Pound.

Like why does he go for u-throw>dair in situations where d-throw to uair should work? And why does he throw out fair so often rather than trying to read the opponents next move or go for guaranteed upb damage? Also often doesnt seem to extend his dthrow combos as far as he can? His combo game is sick in general though. But like vs tweek he kept doing dthrow>dairs which tweek got out of and which arent that damaging either. Also dropped combos vs Mr R and Void quite a few times.
I would like to see him Fthrow the light characters that can avoid U tilt follow-up easily. Zenyou does it a lot and it works well. I think he could've gotten a good bit of mileage vs Aba with F throw to Bair and go from there.

U throw to Dair has a pretty different optimal window from Dthrow to Uair. Was that a typo for utilt? At 0% and such U throw generally leads to better follow-ups. Once they get some % then Dthrow starts linking reliably into stuff. Ally's d throw game seemed on point for the most part to me.

Either way, if the opponent doesn't know how to get out of Dair (F3 hitboxes or invincibility, and I think everyone can air dodge out), Fair after is usually free and around 30% total. I can see going for it even if it's not confirmed. For the characters that air dodge you can follow it and still follow up, so Dair is only questionable against those that can trade with it.

I was impressed how he kinda man handled Larry's Fox. I thought Mario struggled with that MU at top level but Ally made it look easy. I've got notes to take.
 
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thehard

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I think Zenyou "plays Mario" better than Ally does, but Ally has better fundamentals. If that makes sense. Both of them are mixup-heavy though.

If you see a Mario f-air in neutral that's a failed pivot upsmash, btw.
 

Radical Larry

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I never said Cloud fostered no hate what so ever - especially if we start talking Doubles meta. Eventually when you actually get to top tiers there will always be a character that you can safely say people "hate" to varying degrees. But Cloud is a character that a lot of top players have had comparatively little qualms in picking up and dabbling with to certain extents, which is why players have come to enjoy utilizing him. Not to mention, several mains of him such as M2K suggesting people aren't exploiting his recovery enough is a clear contrast to most counter strategies Bayonetta fosters, a lot of which usually boils down to "DI or Die".

Point was more that he's a top quality character many people will end up consider playing more in contrast to Bayonetta who has limited appeal despite her top qualities. I also doubt that reason purely boils down to him being easy to use, as one of the most common arguments leveled against Bayonetta is that her any-to-deaths are braindead (something that made ZeRo specifically spend an entire portion of a video defending pre-patch Sheik).
You have a very valid argument, but let me state this; he's not going to be considered the best character with the results that Das Koopa showed us. He surely is a quality character, but not one of the best characters in the game so far, since characters like Link, Samus and Mewtwo have the potential to place higher than Cloud. Heck, when you even see the results of characters like Sheik and other characters who are top tier, Cloud falls very slightly behind.

Heck, even in the one tournament that he won, he didn't even win as a solo main, as Fox had to be used with him. So an apparent fact is that Cloud is an overrated character in terms of tiers, and in my opinion, should never be considered a contender for first place or even fifth. He should not be considered to be within the top five until we see three or four Clouds in a top 8, solo mains only.

At least, this is my thoughts on Cloud's tier position. I like using him as a character and he's a really great character, but even I have my own negative thoughts of him.
 
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ReRaze

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You have a very valid argument, but let me state this; he's not going to be considered the best character with the results that Das Koopa showed us. He surely is a quality character, but not one of the best characters in the game so far, since characters like Link, Samus and Mewtwo have the potential to place higher than Cloud. Heck, when you even see the results of characters like Sheik and other characters who are top tier, Cloud falls very slightly behind.

Heck, even in the one tournament that he won, he didn't even win as a solo main, as Fox had to be used with him. So an apparent fact is that Cloud is an overrated character in terms of tiers, and in my opinion, should never be considered a contender for first place or even fifth. He should not be considered to be within the top five until we see three or four Clouds in a top 8, solo mains only.
My thoughts on this can only be described by my avatar.

edit: Someone mentioned before that you are definitely trolling but I'm still dying.
 
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C0rvus

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I think results are important, but players > characters, unless there is a bad matchup or the disparity of character strength is enough to make a difference. There's also amount of matchup experience each player has, how well they know their opponent, how well they play, etc. There are too many variables for me to put results on such a pedestal when forming my opinion of characters. Simply put, **** happens.

I DO think that Bayonetta is currently the best character, but perhaps I'm just stuck in theory land.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I keep seeing Rosalina being brought up as a contender for #1 still and I'm really not sure why. With the one exception of Do or DI Rosalina generally does not win tournaments and as she things stand it's *kinda* plausible to assume that she's getting borderline countered by Cloud and MK. I don't know where's standing exactly right now but she should not be in conisderation for #1 imo.

:059:
 

TurboLink

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Why does Cloud beat Rosalina again and how hard does he beat her?
 

NotLiquid

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Why does Cloud beat Rosalina again and how hard does he beat her?
If I'd have to guess it's that Cloud's range makes it rather safe for him to dish out damage against Luma, and Rosa being a floaty light weight makes her susceptible to Cloud's UAir. Not to mention, she really does not have many answers against Cloud if she's attempting to recover.

This is all theory craft though since I don't know the match up that well, but if you told me the Cloud / Rosalina MU favors the former, I can't say I wouldn't believe you.
 
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TheHypnotoad

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Why does Cloud beat Rosalina again and how hard does he beat her?
Cloud outranges Rosa. Cloud has no problems killing Luma. Cloud can generally apply safe pressure to Rosa and not be punished for it. I believe that Cloud's dair also outranges and beats Rosa's uair, which is very important. Cloud can edgeguard Rosa for free. Cloud kills Rosa super early due to her weight. It's very difficult to land as Rosa against Cloud, due to her floatiness and Cloud's superb juggle game.

There are a few other reasons, but these are some of the big ones.
 

NairWizard

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What impresses me most about Mewtwo (and interests me in giving him a shot) is the many different styles he can employ. Swordsman players look at Mewtwo and see a spacing character; Megaman or Rosalina players look at Mewtwo and see a disjointed zoner; Fox players look at Mewtwo and see a bait and punish character; I wouldn't be surprised if Yoshi or Pikachu mains found a mixup character in Mewtwo.


To illustrate this phenomenon, behold Gheb:

Mewtwo looks like a wicked combination of Fox gameplay [huge mobility, lots of raw kill power, good damage output, "glass-canon"] and Ness gameplay [extremely evasive in the air, overwhelmingly strong aerials, kill throw] with a better recovery and one of the best projectiles in the game.
On top of this, he's got the ranged/disjointed footsies of Marth, and Samus' ability to punish mistakes from any range.

As a footsie character, Mewtwo excels and is likely top 10, probably a little worse than Limit Cloud, Little Mac, and Ryu. d-tilt is straight up one of the best grounded moves in the game because it denies the opponent from even playing the footsie game most of the time, and because of it Mewtwo can whiff punish attacks like Mac f-tilt that other characters would have to powershield or shield from a close distance to punish.

up-tilt and to a lesser extent f-tilt serve as great anti-airs, to round out a set of tilts that enable him to use walking spacing over dashes if he wishes (a valuable, underrated asset; many characters who enjoy playing footsies don't have the tilt composition to walk a lot, and walking is more precise than dashing).
d-smash is underutilized and allows Mewtwo to space threatening hitboxes with impunity against some characters.

As a disjointed zoner, Mewtwo is also top of his class. Shadow Ball does all the heavy lifting here just as Charge Shot does for Samus. As middling as Samus might be compared to Rosalina or Cloud, she deserves a lot of respect for her ability to punish you for spacing incorrectly or rolling away from her--fully charged Charge Shot/Shadow Ball is almost as good as Limit Cross Slash for damage, but with much more range.
And imagine if Rosalina could just Shadow Ball you for choosing to retreat from her traps! Incredibly scary.

As a bait and punish character, Mewtwo is pretty underrated. His run-in options are top-class. Dash attack is extremely disjointed and punishes way more actions than it has any right to, and up-smash has a great hitbox and ends lives. Dash grab isn't amazing, but if he does grab you, it can mean your death.
His SHAD is in a league of its own. He can SHAD -> f-air in place, phase forward, or phase backward, all while retaining the ability to dash in with his huge speed at a moment's notice. Airdodging gives him the time he needs to accelerate to his high air speed, which means he can catch you out of your own spacing and punish you.

I have had some doubts about Mewtwo's mixup game, as he doesn't quite have the frame data to do what a character like Pikachu or Villager can do in this regard, but Shadow Ball is such a good move that it opens up the playstyle regardless, and Confusion command grab mixups sweeten the proposition.

If you fully charge Shadow Ball, the opponent is encouraged to play in a way that minimizes the risk of taking a quarter of his stock (or ending the stock), thus opening himself up to getting hit by Mewtwo's other options.
On the other hand, if you don't charge it, you gain mobility options and can use baby Shadow Balls to disrupt options.
This move alone supports the existence of a mixup-oriented Mewtwo, and lest we forget, his n-air would probably be one of the best mixup options in the game on any character, not just Mewtwo.

And no matter which of these styles you pick (though I suspect that the ideal Mewtwo would use a different style in every matchup and even in different situations), he's also got high-tier+ edgeguarding to support it, and two kill throws.

There's such a vast array of positive qualities that recommend Mewtwo. He basically takes the best characteristics of Fox, Ness, Marth, and Samus and combines them into one. I've thought this for quite some time but watching Abadango play cemented it for me.

Of course, on the flipside, he also takes the worst qualities of Rosalina (tall, light, floaty, somewhat helpless at close range) and Luigi (traction problems, recovery can be exploited sometimes), but to what extent this matters remains to be seen.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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Why does Cloud beat Rosalina again and how hard does he beat her?
Cloud is one of the few characters that doesn't really care about a camping Rosalina, since he can just sit back and charge Limit Break. Not to mention, because Luma is unsafe even when Rosalina is shielding, Cloud's Limit Break Cross Slash can tear Luma to pieces, and Cloud will still be safe even if Rosa blocks the attack. Plus, things like Limit Break Blade Beam, Cloud's Dtilt, and other tools can also easily dispatch of Luma. Or leave it useless for an ample amount of time.

Cloud has huge disjoints thanks to his Buster Sword and tools like Nair, meaning that he can comfortably contest Rosalina in a footsies war without much effort. Furthermore, Rosalina's light weight is a hinderance to her in this matchup especially, due to Cloud's high knockback moves, Limit Break mechanics, and disjoints.

And lastly, Rosalina doesn't really have anything at all to contest Cloud when she doesn't have Luma to help her with range/damage/knockback, which forces her to play defensively. A good portion of characters find this to be a chore to deal with, but again, Cloud doesn't really care since he can just sit back and continue to charge his Limit Break. Which is highly unfavorable for Rosalina.


Basically, Cloud is one of the very few characters that forces Rosalina to approach, which opens up weaknesses in her gameplan. Since her approaching options aren't as good as her defensive options. And Cloud has all of the right tools to allow him to capitalize on any strategy that she tries to employ against him.
 

Radical Larry

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Fixed. ROB doesn't really have any other great edgeguarding tools. This one move pushes his edgeguarding from 'meh' to 'godlike.'
D-Air goes through the stage just like Samus's D-Tilt does. It's very dangerous on stages like Battlefield if timed right. No opponent can really recover below him or risk it; only downside is the timing needs to be perfect; it can't be too early.
 

HeavyLobster

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I keep seeing Rosalina being brought up as a contender for #1 still and I'm really not sure why. With the one exception of Do or DI Rosalina generally does not win tournaments and as she things stand it's *kinda* plausible to assume that she's getting borderline countered by Cloud and MK. I don't know where's standing exactly right now but she should not be in conisderation for #1 imo.

:059:
Top tier right now I think is probably Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, Bayo, and maybe ZSS. Rosa is probably around 5th-6th best imo.
 

Radical Larry

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Top tier right now I think is probably Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, Bayo, and maybe ZSS. Rosa is probably around 5th-6th best imo.
Cloud's not a contender for top 5, and Diddy Kong, honestly, I don't know where he could be put. That's a mystery to me. To be fair, Cloud is probably in the lower top 10 range, if not at 10th.

By the way, apparently Ryu's almost never really mentioned around the top 10 range (as far as I can see). How is the shoto doing? Is he losing traction?
 
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FallofBrawl

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Why are almost all bairs so powerful and fast this game?

I think it's just so that ledge trumping is an effective tool to use.

What move would you guy's think is the single best/consistent move across the cast of this game?

Either bair or utilt imo.

EDIT: I meant standard buttons, not specials lol
 
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Zelder

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Why are almost all bairs so powerful and fast this game?

I think it's just so that ledge trumping is an effective tool to use.

What move would you guy's think is the single best/consistent move across the cast of this game?

Either bair or utilt imo.
Upb - I guarantee you'll be forced to use it multiple times per match :yeahboi:

edit: no jigglypuffs allowed
 
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LordShade67

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I think Luigi is a closer analogy. At least Ryu can move in the air, even if mostly only in one direction. Luigi has similar mobility specs to Falco but is much better at forcing approaches and more potent when he does so, plus he some stamina to take hits on the way there.
Fair point. I just used Ryu since again, someone else mentioned it here awhile back. But yeah. Luigi would probably be a better comparison.
 

Pazzo.

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Why are almost all bairs so powerful and fast this game?

I think it's just so that ledge trumping is an effective tool to use.

What move would you guy's think is the single best/consistent move across the cast of this game?

Either bair or utilt imo.
Interesting idea.

Also, most aerials and specials only work facing forwards. You may as well get some reward for limiting your options through approaching backwards.
 

The Revolutionary Cafe

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Cloud's not a contender for top 5, and Diddy Kong, honestly, I don't know where he could be put. That's a mystery to me. To be fair, Cloud is probably in the lower top 10 range, if not at 10th.

By the way, apparently Ryu's almost never really mentioned around the top 10 range (as far as I can see). How is the shoto doing? Is he losing traction?
Cloud isn't top 5? Why not? He has great results considering his limited time being available, range comparable with Shulk with frame data better than Roy, (who was DESIGNED to be a rush down-ish swordsman) an amazing juggle game, limit which makes him better in literally every way, and his easy pick up and play style which has allowed his meta to progress DRASTICALLY compared to other DLC and even vanilla characters.

Regarding Ryu Trela from what I know went on some sort of hiatus and 9B straight up dropped him for Bayo. Losing these two players really shrinks his representation and the fact he's harder to play than most characters makes him a very niche choice unless you love the character.
 

Y2Kay

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Cloud isn't top 5? Why not? He has great results considering his limited time being available, range comparable with Shulk with frame data better than Roy, (who was DESIGNED to be a rush down-ish swordsman) an amazing juggle game, limit which makes him better in literally every way, and his easy pick up and play style which has allowed his meta to progress DRASTICALLY compared to other DLC and even vanilla characters.

Regarding Ryu Trela from what I know went on some sort of hiatus and 9B straight up dropped him for Bayo. Losing these two players really shrinks his representation and the fact he's harder to play than most characters makes him a very niche choice unless you love the character.
Trela's hiatus ended a week or two ago.

:150:
 

Blobface

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Why are almost all bairs so powerful and fast this game?

I think it's just so that ledge trumping is an effective tool to use.
I'm fairly sure that that's just been a design Sakurai has gone with since 64. When I think of "Standout Aerials" in smash most of them tend to be B-airs. Makes sense given they are generally slightly more awkward to use and are telegraphed by your character's back being to the opponent.

Also, on the subject of giving characters mobility, Ganon. Ganon with even median mobility could in theory:
  • Threaten shields with dashgrabs.
  • Catch landings with Wizkick, easily.
  • Combo U-air into itself.
  • Edgeguard all characters effectively, rather than being severely limited against several.
  • Combo D-throw --> F-air for a kill below 70%
  • Use JC U-smash for a highly rewarding 100% unpunishable approach
  • And if his shorthop height was increased, could use SHAC D-air, which is neutral on shielddrop and insanely rewarding to hit.
And if you gave him good mobility... nope.

On edgeguarding, I can't help but feel we take this really silly black white approach of either A) Airdodges are invincible, don't edgeguard or B) Airdodges don't exist, go ham, it's free. I find that while airdodges do tend to be strong, most characters have at least one aerial with a FAF of 30 or so, allowing them to cover airdodges with that aerial alone.
 

Rizen

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I'm fairly sure that that's just been a design Sakurai has gone with since 64. When I think of "Standout Aerials" in smash most of them tend to be B-airs. Makes sense given they are generally slightly more awkward to use and are telegraphed by your character's back being to the opponent.

Also, on the subject of giving characters mobility, Ganon. Ganon with even median mobility could in theory:
  • Threaten shields with dashgrabs.
  • Catch landings with Wizkick, easily.
  • Combo U-air into itself.
  • Edgeguard all characters effectively, rather than being severely limited against several.
  • Combo D-throw --> F-air for a kill below 70%
  • Use JC U-smash for a highly rewarding 100% unpunishable approach
  • And if his shorthop height was increased, could use SHAC D-air, which is neutral on shielddrop and insanely rewarding to hit.
And if you gave him good mobility... nope.

On edgeguarding, I can't help but feel we take this really silly black white approach of either A) Airdodges are invincible, don't edgeguard or B) Airdodges don't exist, go ham, it's free. I find that while airdodges do tend to be strong, most characters have at least one aerial with a FAF of 30 or so, allowing them to cover airdodges with that aerial alone.
:4ganondorf: with good mobility is :4mewtwo: sorta.

ps don't take this comment too literally. I just meant Mewtwo was a slow but powerful character who got big mobility buffs.
 
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The Revolutionary Cafe

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See, this is why I say Pit has the best edgeguarding in the game. Sitting on the ledge shooting arrows >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting the ledge doing nothing.
I think Bayo may have the best edgeguarding considering how well she can handle any situation.
 

BunbUn129

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With regards to mobility, Meta Knight with only marginally faster air speed (from his actual 0.99 to 1.05) would be able to do all of the following:

-D-throw -> uair more consistently and without having to pivot against some characters
-D-throw -> Shuttle Loop reliably for KO's
-Combo fair into itself for an inescapable Wall of Pain (note: fair -> fair already works sub-15%)
-Combo uair into itself as reliably as pre-patch (in fact, MK with faster air speed and the new uair angle would very likely be better than he was pre-patch, because he would be able to use the new angle for uair combos and edge-guard set-ups)
-Combo dair into itself for another Wall of Pain

Meta Knight's air speed is just slow enough to prevent all this **** from happening.
 

LancerStaff

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I think Bayo may have the best edgeguarding considering how well she can handle any situation.
Meh. Arrows are a decent threat at worst to every character besides MK, and the only reason he can mostly ignore arrows is because he's the only character with the combination of many jumps and hard to challenge recovery specials. Bayo I don't think can do much to characters with top tier recovery options.
 

LancerStaff

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Are Light Arrows a threat or way to get free damage?
A threat, directly or indirectly. Most characters definitely don't want to lose a double jump, and others such as Sheik can be forced to recover sub-optimally and become ledge snap bait.

There isn't a character who's untouchable offstage with Pit around.
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
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I think the benefit is you don't have to decide that, you just shoot them and hope either happens.
 

Fatmanonice

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Fatmanonice
So, I know a lot has changed in the past month but who are considered to be Mewtwo's worst match ups now? I've heard arguments for :4bayonetta::4falcon::4dk::4myfriends::4mario::4ness::rosalina: being bad but I'd appreciate other people weighing in since the character has very quickly become relevant.

Add in: In my own experience against a local Mewtwo, Ike vs Mewtwo feels bad because of Ike's range, throw set ups, and raw kill power.
 
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EnhaloTricks

Smash Apprentice
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Sep 27, 2014
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So, I know a lot has changed in the past month but who are considered to be Mewtwo's worst match ups now? I've heard arguments for :4bayonetta::4falcon::4dk::4myfriends::4mario::4ness::rosalina: being bad but I'd appreciate other people weighing in since the character has very quickly become relevant.
I find it hard to play against M2 as Ness, personally. M2's combination of speed, disjoint, and reliable kill moves/setups really makes it hard for Ness to get in and do damage. Once Ness get's in M2 eats a lot of damage quick, but once he's out... Ness has a hard time getting back in. Rinse and repeat.

The main saving grace for Ness in this MU is Ness can kill M2 so early with bthrow, uair, bair and with a good read/setup PKT2 can kill M2 at completely unreasonable percents. If M2 is playing good, then Ness will have a hard time getting in. Watching Awestin vs. Mew^2 shows this. Awestin is just really good at converting one hit into 30%+. That and he's such a smart player lol.

I actually dislike the MU as Ness. I go Fox for it.

TBH, I could be playing the MU wrong, but that's my take on it.
 
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