Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

On another topic, anyone kinda disappointed at 's performance at Pound this weekend? I know this was Mekos' first Smash 4 major and he's definitely a great player, but on the inside I was hoping for Lucas to break out here. Guess we'll have to wait. I still feel like this character is able to go further once people start to optimize him.

 

[adom4]

Speaking of edgeguarding, who are the best edgeguarders in the game?

are the best ones imo, maybe i'm forgetting a few but if i had to name more characters this list would be getting way too long.
Also while i think my boy is a fantastic edgeguarder his mobility limits him offstage somewhat compared to some other edgeguarders.

 

[Deleted member]

are the best ones imo, maybe i'm forgetting a few but if i had to name more characters this list would be getting way too long.
Also while i think my boy is a fantastic edgeguarder his mobility limits him offstage somewhat compared to some other edgeguarders.

I also wanna add to this
Edgeguarding is one of 's few notable strengths.is also an amazing edgeguarder. deserves a mention in my opinion. Fair and arrows are pretty pesky, and Orbitars have situational use against some recoveries, if anything.

 

[Yikarur]

@ Diddy Item Conversation before
Z-Drop Aerials is something I do all the time with Diddy and it pushes Diddy to another threat level. The moment you are no longer safe of fair, you're starting to resepct Diddy even more.

Same for stealing metal blade. I forced germanys best Mega Man to switch characters because I stole the metal blade and with the metal blade I was doing z-drop aerials and specials and he was clearly very limited in his game play much more than me.

 

[meleebrawler]

This weekend's results, in Top 16 format

Pound 6

Spoiler

1st: Abadango (,)
2nd: Ally ()
3rd: Marss ()
4th: Mr. R ()
5th: Tweek ()
5th: VoiD ()
7th: Pink Fresh ()
7th: Larry Lurr (,)
9th: Dabuz ()
9th: ESAM (,)
9th: KID Goggles (,)
9th: Hyuga ()
13th: Saj ()
13th: Scatt ()
13th: NAKAT (,,)
13th: K9 ()

Avalon U-III

Spoiler

1st: Sodrek (,)
2nd: S1 (,)
3rd: Eddy (,)
4th: LoNg0uW ()
5th: Yikarur (, )
5th: AscWolf (, )
7th: Cat ()
7th: Meru ()
9th: Thomau5 (,)
9th: Yoh ()
9th: Gregs ()
9th: Prodigy (.)
13th: Peeko ()
13th: Narayan ()
13th: Grove (..)
13th: Broberto ()

Hypespotting V

Spoiler

1st: Ixis ()
2nd: JMiller ()
3rd: AfroSmash ()
4th: GRDBRKR|MINT ()
5th: Plastic Poptart (,)
5th: Khanage ()
7th: DX17 ()
7th: Magi (,)
9th: DAT VsW G~P ()
9th: 8va ()
9th: Yackabean ()
9th: Skarfelt ()
13th: EOE ()
13th: Jezo ()
13th: ED|Willksy15 ()
13th: FROG (Unknown)

Tech Republic

Spoiler

1st: Rydlle ()
2nd: Greward (,,,)
3rd: Macbri (,)
4th: Robo Luigi ()
5th: Sefi ()
5th: El_Pitikla (,)
7th: Hikotsu ()
7th: Nau ()
9th: El_Bardo ()
9th: MazZone ()
9th: Slay (,)
9th: FotuRAN ()
13th: Seton ()
13th: Darklu ()
13th: Orfen ()
13th: Pocafeiner ()

Collegiate Colosseum

Spoiler

1st: Tyrant ()
2nd: MrConCon ()
3rd: Falln ()
4th: Aphro (, )
5th: Charger (, )
5th: TLTC ()
7th: Rich Brown ()
7th: Tearbear ()
9th: Zan ()
9th: Scizor ()
9th: Elegant ()
9th: NCJacobT ()
13th: Pitbull (,)
13th: Jingen ()
13th: Xzax ()
13th: Hexfactor ()

Looks like Luigi is always #2... again.

Falco has good CQC options.....That's about all I can think of. I believe someone else here mentioned awhile back that if you want a character like Falco but more rewarding, Ryu'll give you more bang for your buck(figuratively and probably literally, lol.).

I think Luigi is a closer analogy. At least Ryu can move in the air, even if mostly only in one direction. Luigi has similar mobility specs to Falco but is much better at forcing approaches and more potent when he does so, plus he some stamina to take hits on the way there.

 

[T4ylor]

On another topic, anyone kinda disappointed at 's performance at Pound this weekend? I know this was Mekos' first Smash 4 major and he's definitely a great player, but on the inside I was hoping for Lucas to break out here. Guess we'll have to wait. I still feel like this character is able to go further once people start to optimize him.

Haven't you heard of Taiheita's Lucas? He's pretty new the scene and had great performances at Sumabato8 and Karisuma6

 

[Deleted member]

Haven't you heard of Taiheita's Lucas? He's pretty new the scene and had great performances at Sumabato8 and Karisuma6

Ooh, I remember him being mentioned in this thread before! Thanks for the heads up. How well did he place in both?

 

[T4ylor]

Ooh, I remember him being mentioned in this thread before! Thanks for the heads up. How well did he place in both?

5th at Sumabato and 2nd at Karisuma. The former was only his second tournament. He took 9b to second set in grands, is 3-0 in sets vs Atelier, beat Kamemushi, beat Kie etc.

 

[Ghostbone]

Speaking of edgeguarding, who are the best edgeguarders in the game?

Can't really make an objective list because different characters are good at edgeguarding different character's recoveries.

Like Marth is one of the best edgeguarders vs bayo's recovery but not as good in general as MK for example. Luigi's edgeguarding is very polarising in the matchups he can cyclone gimp you but not notable if he can't, same with Doc. Even little mac "edge-guards" some characters really well because they ledge snap at obvious times which lets you 2-frame d-smash them for free.

Anyway, notable characters are like, Marth (Lucina), MK, Falco, Pikachu, Villager, Cloud, Bayonetta (no particular order).

 

[L9999]

are the best ones imo, maybe i'm forgetting a few but if i had to name more characters this list would be getting way too long.
Also while i think my boy is a fantastic edgeguarder his mobility limits him offstage somewhat compared to some other edgeguarders.

From what I have seen from Ranai and others, Killager doesn't give a single damn about anyone's recovery. Slingshots, tree, bowling ball, lloids, Nair, Dair, he can afford going deep because Up B...What options to cover the ledge he doesn't have?

 

[Nobie]

Well all the regulars here know the spiel by now, but I'LL HAVE MY RANT STILL.

Well, for starters,
he has a slower walk than like, a third of the cast in most relevant situations due to the non-existent acceleration.
This means that he may be walking faster than Fox, but this is after a second++ of him "slowly walking up to you", but without the PogChamp. Up his walking acceleration and this would truly be relevant (hmmm tasty walking jab, it would almost be as good as sheik's walking ftilt or fox' walking reverse up tilt).

Furthermore, I don't think it's his neutral that gets hated on that much, he has some of the best footsie tools in the cast.
His paramount issue all this time that gets highlighted in almost any match you watch a good Marth play against a top tier in tournament is his feeble reward for getting successful hits.
This means that many characters can play a harsh attrition game against him, and that's where his neutral (these terms are horribly overlapping, btw) starts to fall apart because in turn of him taking more risks, he's still getting little reward. And let me tell you now, this character is FULL of risks.

Marth still has no grab reward or real kill set ups. He had one semi-relevant set up in shieldbreaker deleted. He has extreme reward in something like his forward smash, but that's truly nothing more than the sexiest whiff punish in the game that comes with 40 frames of lag.
Thankfully they've made him usable competitively by having three strong (when spaced well still) aerial kill moves, but that's almost all he has that's "good" - raw KOing aerials. But I must highlight that even though they're some of his "best moves", they're still not some of the "best" moves in the cast, above average definitely but I wouldn't put them much further than that.

Marth could be a lot better in every way with his mobility specs buffed, even considering walking (he got a lot more out of in Brawl) he had all of his mobility specs comparatively nerfed between games.

Unfortunately, one of the most common complaints I see about Marth is that "he has a bad neutral." Alternately, "Without short hop double fair he has a bad neutral." I think it comes from a very different (bad) understanding of what neutral is, but the idea continues to persist.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Are definitely honorable mentions for edge guarding.
Definitely have some good moves that you don't want to be hit with offstage.

 

[Deleted member]

Are definitely honorable mentions for edge guarding.
Definitely have some good moves that you don't want to be hit with offstage.

Since when is Zelda a good edgeguarder? Down air's sourspot is good for gimping poor recoveries but that's really it. Din's and Phantom are rather predictable.

 

[buzzard]

Since when is Zelda a good edgeguarder? Down air's sourspot is good for gimping poor recoveries but that's really it. Din's and Phantom are rather predictable.

DAir sourspot leads to an easy footstool. The sweetspot straight up kills.
DTilt is good for catching the 2 frame ledge vulnerability and it can lead to a FSmash, Lightning Kick or DAir at the edge of the platform for an early kill.
Reverse phantom offstage can catch enemies offguard and if it pushes you against the stage, the spike cannot be teched.
Falling NAir is a lingering and slightly disjointed attack that can intercept some recoveries and it can kill, or it can even push you against the stage for another untechable stage spike.
Phantom gimps Ike's, Cloud's, Kirby's and Mac's UpB. It also catches incorrect ledge getups.
Din's is generaly useless but you might force the opponent to recover from a position that benefits Zelda's DAir or NAir.
And ledge cancelled Farore's Wind can lead to completely unexpected gimps from DAir and NAir.

She has plenty edgeguarding tools, some are very situational but others are quite good and useful and thanks to her good recovery she can chase her opponent to the deepest parts of the stage and pressure him/her.

As a Zelda pessimist, I actually find her edgeguarding to be one of the few things where she excels.

 

[Tri Knight]

This weekend's results, in Top 16 format

Pound 6

Spoiler

1st: Abadango (,)
2nd: Ally ()
3rd: Marss ()
4th: Mr. R ()
5th: Tweek ()
5th: VoiD ()
7th: Pink Fresh ()
7th: Larry Lurr (,)
9th: Dabuz ()
9th: ESAM (,)
9th: KID Goggles (,)
9th: Hyuga ()
13th: Saj ()
13th: Scatt ()
13th: NAKAT (,,)
13th: K9 ()

Avalon U-III

Spoiler

1st: Sodrek (,)
2nd: S1 (,)
3rd: Eddy (,)
4th: LoNg0uW ()
5th: Yikarur (, )
5th: AscWolf (, )
7th: Cat ()
7th: Meru ()
9th: Thomau5 (,)
9th: Yoh ()
9th: Gregs ()
9th: Prodigy (.)
13th: Peeko ()
13th: Narayan ()
13th: Grove (..)
13th: Broberto ()

Hypespotting V

Spoiler

1st: Ixis ()
2nd: JMiller ()
3rd: AfroSmash ()
4th: GRDBRKR|MINT ()
5th: Plastic Poptart (,)
5th: Khanage ()
7th: DX17 ()
7th: Magi (,)
9th: DAT VsW G~P ()
9th: 8va ()
9th: Yackabean ()
9th: Skarfelt ()
13th: EOE ()
13th: Jezo ()
13th: ED|Willksy15 ()
13th: FROG (Unknown)

Tech Republic

Spoiler

1st: Rydlle ()
2nd: Greward (,,,)
3rd: Macbri (,)
4th: Robo Luigi ()
5th: Sefi ()
5th: El_Pitikla (,)
7th: Hikotsu ()
7th: Nau ()
9th: El_Bardo ()
9th: MazZone ()
9th: Slay (,)
9th: FotuRAN ()
13th: Seton ()
13th: Darklu ()
13th: Orfen ()
13th: Pocafeiner ()

Collegiate Colosseum

Spoiler

1st: Tyrant ()
2nd: MrConCon ()
3rd: Falln ()
4th: Aphro (, )
5th: Charger (, )
5th: TLTC ()
7th: Rich Brown ()
7th: Tearbear ()
9th: Zan ()
9th: Scizor ()
9th: Elegant ()
9th: NCJacobT ()
13th: Pitbull (,)
13th: Jingen ()
13th: Xzax ()
13th: Hexfactor ()

2 Link's out of that list. Absolutely fantastic. Scizor went even with Zan? That's amazing.

And once again we have some of the most diverse lists I've seen in a while.

 

[MistressRemilia]

edgeguards pretty well:
- Pills can catch jumps & logically, either straight gimp you or force a predictable trajectory for your recovery.
- Tornado lasts long enough to catch airdodging opponents & has a strong knockback.
- Cape screws most of the predictable recoveries.
- Bair ledgetrumps pretty well & can allow for baits to force a certain type of recovery due to it being strong & not laggy.
- Uair has a hitbox that can semispike, that's pretty nice.
- Reverse UpB can be used to trade with some recoveries, mostly an option for high% as they'll die of the trade while you'll be able to tech or not die in most of the cases, it's a win/win situation & most definitly a worthy trade.
- Dair can also be used to edgeguard kind of similarly to Tornado.

What holds him back is the inability to go deep & his mobility, but he's still pretty good at edgeguarding with a good amount of options to cover a good amount of recoveries.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

are the best ones imo, maybe i'm forgetting a few but if i had to name more characters this list would be getting way too long.
Also while i think my boy is a fantastic edgeguarder his mobility limits him offstage somewhat compared to some other edgeguarders.

Since no one else has brought it up, is also an awesome edgeguarder. I know she isn't seen as being relevant to the meta in the same way as many of the characters listed, but she still deserves mention.

 

[NotLiquid]

Sonic's edge guards are for the most of the part entirely risk-free. The spring in particular is free damage in almost all cases. DTilt and down-angled FSmash cover ledge snap vulnerability. BAir is an amazing kill move off the stage and as long as Sonic has a jump there's virtually no risk of him going deep.

 

[Jalil]

Pacman can edgeguard pretty well.
Hydrant catches 2 frame easily.
Z dropped fruits to cover low recoveries without commitment/ force an airdodge while pac himself covers high.
Down air, nair and bairs lingering hitboxes are good for gimps, fair stings can catch jumps.
Melon thrown downwards moves very slowly and basically stays in one place making it almost impossible to not get hit if it's right on the ledge unless you have a disjointed up b.
Hydrant drop also combos into pacs aerials and key at high percents.

If we talkin ledge option coverage then pacs really good at that too. If you place the hydrant on the ledge and make it bounce with the trampoline that covers standard getup, getup attack, roll and jump.
I also like to put a hydrant on the ledge then charge down smash from max distance. They hydrant extends dsmash's hitbox like how wario uses the bike with fart, If you time it right it covers roll, standard getup and jump. If they wait on he ledge then you're safe cuz the water pushes you away.
There's also trampoline on ledge-->bell
Fruits that bounce several times can just be place on the ledge and cover a few options safety as well.

 

[Trunks159]

If we're talking "guarding the edge" and not "gimping your opponent":


has fsmash, long range, side b covering many options. Plus the counter.
has the frame data and speed to react to any option. Air needles side b exert pressure as well.
has gyro.
has that uptilt, dash speed, super quick shff, fmash, up air
has rapid jab luma

There are a ton of characters that can gimp well.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Ally seemed to destroy Marths Zss rather effortlessly, how is that matchup looking? Kinda seemed like Ally playing the way he was wast just too much for Marss to handle, he was getting outsmarted a lot, but still though.

Also, is it just me or could Ally work on optimizing his combos a bit more? Oftentimes he doesnt seem to get as much out of them as he could and doesnt he pick suboptimal followups out of d-throw quite a lot? His Mario is so slick but it still seems a bit lacking in that regard, even though he played like a menace at Pound.

Like why does he go for u-throw>dair in situations where d-throw to uair should work? And why does he throw out fair so often rather than trying to read the opponents next move or go for guaranteed upb damage? Also often doesnt seem to extend his dthrow combos as far as he can? His combo game is sick in general though. But like vs tweek he kept doing dthrow>dairs which tweek got out of and which arent that damaging either. Also dropped combos vs Mr R and Void quite a few times.

Might be Im just not understanding the conditions properly. But it looks like he picks suboptimal followups in situations because hes scared of his combos not being true or reliable when in fact they are.

Also, does he really play the neutral right vs Sheik? When I compare him with Anti it seems like the latter is able to be less predictable by using more aerials whereas Ally seems to rely more heavily on grounded approaches. Hes really good at mixing it up with his dashing shielding and rolling and those are strong options. But he gets read so many times in neutral vs Sheik. It seems to me that it can be worth using stuff like aerials even though they are weaker options in themselves just to be less predictable and have his grounded stuff being read less frequently.

Still he couldve taken Void if he had managed to stay alive longer, which I think he would have with more experience. He was able to make it a pain in the ass for Mr R to kill him. Also like the way he usmashes like a ****** to instill the fear and neuter his opponents options. Just wondering if theres any substance to these observations.

 

[juddy96]

Ally seemed to destroy Marths Zss rather effortlessly, how is that matchup looking? Kinda seemed like Ally playing the way he was wast just too much for Marss to handle, he was getting outsmarted a lot, but still though.

Also, is it just me or could Ally work on optimizing his combos a bit more? Oftentimes he doesnt seem to get as much out of them as he could and doesnt he pick suboptimal followups out of d-throw quite a lot? His Mario is so slick but it still seems a bit lacking in that regard, even though he played like a menace at Pound.

Like why does he go for u-throw>dair in situations where d-throw to uair should work? And why does he throw out fair so often rather than trying to read the opponents next move or go for guaranteed upb damage? Also often doesnt seem to extend his dthrow combos as far as he can? His combo game is sick in general though. But like vs tweek he kept doing dthrow>dairs which tweek got out of and which arent that damaging either. Also dropped combos vs Mr R and Void quite a few times.

Might be Im just not understanding the conditions properly. But it looks like he picks suboptimal followups in situations because hes scared of his combos not being true or reliable when in fact they are.

Also, does he really play the neutral right vs Sheik? When I compare him with Anti it seems like the latter is able to be less predictable by using more aerials whereas Ally seems to rely more heavily on grounded approaches. Hes really good at mixing it up with his dashing shielding and rolling and those are strong options. But he gets read so many times in neutral vs Sheik. It seems to me that it can be worth using stuff like aerials even though they are weaker options in themselves just to be less predictable and have his grounded stuff being read less frequently.

Still he couldve taken Void if he had managed to stay alive longer, which I think he would have with more experience. He was able to make it a pain in the *** for Mr R to kill him. Also like the way he usmashes like a ****** to instill the fear and neuter his opponents options. Just wondering if theres any substance to these observations.

Marss was really just frustrated and showed his inexperience at getting every attack of his shielded. You could just see it on his face after game 2. I don't believe the kid is even 18 yet so he has a long future ahead of him.

 

[Radical Larry]

2 Link's out of that list. Absolutely fantastic. Scizor went even with Zan? That's amazing.

And once again we have some of the most diverse lists I've seen in a while.

What's great is that it can confirm Link can actually be a tournament viable character; making top 8 and 16, respectively, as well as his success in two other majors, definitely says that Link is no low tier if he can manage to make it so high. He's literally above the likes of top tiers on the two ranking charts he's in, so this could be an evident indicator to how viable he is in the long run. (Middle Tier)

Also, Mewtwo taking Pound in first place; that's pretty neat and surely indicates he is going to rise up to high tier pretty soon.

 

[iVoltage]

I mean was literally designed to edgeguard and is one of the best if not the best at it.

 

[sedrf]

Anybody think that we are sleeping on bayo atm. There's a decent amount of killers in japan and bayo secondaries in europe.
Bayo is very strong ,but I feel she either gets too much or too little. At the same time people are getting used to he at least on a national/major level. Which is good because I find her antics kinda amusing

 

[Luco]

Anybody think that we are sleeping on bayo atm. There's a decent amount of killers in japan and bayo secondaries in europe.
Bayo is very strong ,but I feel she either gets too much or too little. At the same time people are getting used to he at least on a national/major level. Which is good because I find her antics kinda amusing

I'm sorry?

But not to detract from what I think you were trying to say, which is probably pretty accurate and Bayo gets over or undersold when she's probably just another top tier. That being said Trifroze raised an interesting point about game design not being needed to be broken to be bad design, citing the idea of a highly average character but buffed by a 10% chance of auto-winning any given battle, and the chances of them winning a major is low statistically but they can theoretically beat any given player due to that 10% auto-win chance. I think Bayo's design should be looked at less in a "broken!" lens and more in a "polarised?" lens.

EDIT: Welcome back, Larry. I agree with your latter assertion, though I feel it's relevant to note that Aba DIDN'T use Mewtwo against Dabuz's Rosalina. Perhaps he's not truly solo-viable and we kinda skipped over it during the hype, but I'm interested right now in what mewtwo mains and Rosa mains have to say about that MU in particular. In the meantime though mewtwo HAS shown he has the tools to compete at least at a level similar to Greninja and friends if not higher.

 

[Nobie]

Ally seemed to destroy Marths Zss rather effortlessly, how is that matchup looking? Kinda seemed like Ally playing the way he was wast just too much for Marss to handle, he was getting outsmarted a lot, but still though.

Also, is it just me or could Ally work on optimizing his combos a bit more? Oftentimes he doesnt seem to get as much out of them as he could and doesnt he pick suboptimal followups out of d-throw quite a lot? His Mario is so slick but it still seems a bit lacking in that regard, even though he played like a menace at Pound.

Like why does he go for u-throw>dair in situations where d-throw to uair should work? And why does he throw out fair so often rather than trying to read the opponents next move or go for guaranteed upb damage? Also often doesnt seem to extend his dthrow combos as far as he can? His combo game is sick in general though. But like vs tweek he kept doing dthrow>dairs which tweek got out of and which arent that damaging either. Also dropped combos vs Mr R and Void quite a few times.

Might be Im just not understanding the conditions properly. But it looks like he picks suboptimal followups in situations because hes scared of his combos not being true or reliable when in fact they are.

Also, does he really play the neutral right vs Sheik? When I compare him with Anti it seems like the latter is able to be less predictable by using more aerials whereas Ally seems to rely more heavily on grounded approaches. Hes really good at mixing it up with his dashing shielding and rolling and those are strong options. But he gets read so many times in neutral vs Sheik. It seems to me that it can be worth using stuff like aerials even though they are weaker options in themselves just to be less predictable and have his grounded stuff being read less frequently.

Still he couldve taken Void if he had managed to stay alive longer, which I think he would have with more experience. He was able to make it a pain in the *** for Mr R to kill him. Also like the way he usmashes like a ****** to instill the fear and neuter his opponents options. Just wondering if theres any substance to these observations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5nydzN51b0

This is an old video of Dabuz talking about Ally, and in it he mentions that Ally is the kind of player who, when on the attack, would rather choose non-guaranteed followups for the chance at accomplish more rather than doing what's guaranteed and "optimal." It's just kind of the way Ally is, I guess.

Edit: In regards to Abadango not using Mewtwo vs. Rosalina, I think that had a lot more to do with how rough an opponent MK is for Rosalina. Why go for the even matchup when you can just counterpick and win?

 

[Radical Larry]

EDIT: Welcome back, Larry. I agree with your latter assertion, though I feel it's relevant to note that Aba DIDN'T use Mewtwo against Dabuz's Rosalina. Perhaps he's not truly solo-viable and we kinda skipped over it during the hype, but I'm interested right now in what mewtwo mains and Rosa mains have to say about that MU in particular. In the meantime though mewtwo HAS shown he has the tools to compete at least at a level similar to Greninja and friends if not higher.

Well, the obvious thing about Mewtwo vs Rosalina is that Mewtwo can't use Shadow Ball against a very hefty-guarded Rosalina who can use Down B with accuracy, so it would have to take a combo to ensure Rosalina would be hit by the powerful projectile. Not only that, but Mewtwo's very light body and enormous frame would make him susceptible to very early deaths, am I wrong? While not a main of either, I just feel that Mewtwo will have a hard time challenging Rosalina and should never be above Rosalina unless the latter has a lot of stun on them off-stage, and may rarely ever get to use Shadow Ball due to Luma or Rosalina's Gravitational Pull.

I mean, you literally have Mewtwo and then you have Space Mewtwo. Big bodies, big range, light bodies, decent throws and frame data, and even mobility. But Mewtwo's trump in terms of the attributes is his better KO move prowess, in where he can kill earlier than Rosalina due to some powerful attacks and throws.

But again, I'm no main of either of them, so I barely have stuff to say about them. But Mewtwo does have the tools to fend for himself, and he might be able to be solo-mained, but Rosalina might pose a problem for Mewtwo since she has a few things that trump the Pokemon. Abadango didn't use Mewtwo since he knew Dabuz would use Rosalina's Gravitational Pull to his advantage or that he doesn't have as much experience against Rosalina with Mewtwo; it's all murky for me. But I do feel that he can be solo viable, but I'm just asking, did Abadango use Mewtwo for most of the tournament, if not almost all of it, except against Dabuz, or were there others he didn't use Mewtwo against?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ally seemed to destroy Marths Zss rather effortlessly, how is that matchup looking? Kinda seemed like Ally playing the way he was wast just too much for Marss to handle, he was getting outsmarted a lot, but still though.

It's weird, Ally lost to Nairo pretty convincingly at G3. I doubt that's all because of the patch.

 

[NotLiquid]

Anybody think that we are sleeping on bayo atm. There's a decent amount of killers in japan and bayo secondaries in europe.
Bayo is very strong ,but I feel she either gets too much or too little. At the same time people are getting used to he at least on a national/major level. Which is good because I find her antics kinda amusing

Sleeping is a strong word. It implies that people don't recognize what the character can bring to the table, and I'm pretty sure everyone is plentifully aware of what she has.

Poor choice of words aside however I sort of agree with the sentiment. People aren't so much sleeping on her as they're willfully disregarding her, which eventually creates a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If it isn't fear of her being nerfed it's fear of being persecuted as a player. Saj and Pink Fresh have already been thrown under the bus too many times in the past. That and there's also the fear of her being optimized. It's a character not many people want to see succeed and one few people want to succeed with.

In terms of DLC characters I definitely feel like Cloud is going to be above her in terms of general character quality and reception - primarily because he's not particularly disproportionate in terms of traits which makes him favorable for players and audiences. It's a good thing Mario actually ended up being good in this game as I'd like to think Cloud is what pretty much every pre-Smash 4 Mario wishes he could be.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly, most of the cast is pretty good at edgeguarding.

It's just that so few players actually make an attempt to.

 

[NegaNixx]

Anybody think that we are sleeping on bayo atm. There's a decent amount of killers in japan and bayo secondaries in europe.
Bayo is very strong ,but I feel she either gets too much or too little. At the same time people are getting used to he at least on a national/major level. Which is good because I find her antics kinda amusing

People are underselling her because people are constantly overselling her.

In theory and as we've seen in practice the character is seen as dominating and multiple people proclaim her as the best character in the game. Our previous best characters (Diddy and Sheik) were winning majors left and right and we're not seeing that from Bayo so we have to downplay our theory to match the conclusion that the evidence gives us. And it's not like she doesn't have good players backing her, Pink Fresh is a top PM Lucas, Salem and 9B are top Brawl players. These are people with more than solid smash fundamentals and they're not winning with a character perceived as broken.

The ends don't make sense so we have to adjust the way we reached those ends. Hence the underselling.

Polarized is the word for Bayonetta as Luco said, she forces you to play a drastically different game to win. Welcome back ICs (lite).

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo goes even with Rosalina. Gravitational Pull isn't a big deal, honestly. Shadow Ball has so little recoil and Mewtwo runs so fast now, that he can punish her for using the move. And if she doesn't use GP, Luma will soak up the damage and already be near death. Luma just can't be a meat shield for Mewtwo; it only takes a few good hits from him to actually kill it. Mewtwo's kill setups are also very potent on Rosa too.

In short, Rosalina and Luma is a bad Match up for Mewtwo. But Rosalina is not a bad matchup for him. And a majority of the time you'll be fighting Rosalina.

Also, Abadango went MK because he bodies Rosa better than Mewtwo, not because it's bad for Mewtwo

 

[HoSmash4]

Honestly, most of the cast is pretty good at edgeguarding.

It's just that so few players actually make an attempt to.

is one of the best.

 

[TurboLink]

's Bow & Arrow would be pretty good at edgeguarding if he could actually aim his bow in all eight directions.

 

[Big-Cat]

's Bow & Arrows would be pretty good at edgeguarding if he could actually aim his bow in all eight directions.

That would make him so OP that matchups like Cloud would turn 8-2 at least.

 

[Yikarur]

Cloud is one of the most hated and one of the easiest character to play. Cloud is not more favorable for players and audiences lol
Cloud Hate is just overshadowed by Bayonetta hate right now.

 

[Charoite]

well if they nerfed bayo, the next character to hate will be , i doubt it will be the majority of top players like him becuase is the only character that resembles melee marth.

 

[Tri Knight]

That would make him so OP that matchups like Cloud would turn 8-2 at least.

What about the Pits' arrows?

 

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo goes even with Rosalina. Gravitational Pull isn't a big deal, honestly. Shadow Ball has so little recoil and Mewtwo runs so fast now, that he can punish her for using the move. And if she doesn't use GP, Luma will soak up the damage already be near death. Luma just can't be a meat shield for Mewtwo it only takes a few good hits from to actually. Mewtwo's kill setups are also very potent on Rosa too.

In short, Rosalina and Luma is a bad Match up for Mewtwo. But Rosalina is not a bad matchup for him. And a majority of the time you'll be fighting Rosalina.

Also, Abadango went MK because he bodies Rosa better than Mewtwo, not because it's bad for Mewtwo

This is also how I feel about the matchup. If you had the chance to go in a potentially even MU or one that's largely in your character's favor, you'd pick MK if you were Aba as well. It doesn't really fully detract from what Abadango accomplished this weekend, it was just one set where he didn't go Mewtwo... though I was very interested to see how Mewtwo vs. Rosalina would outfold at high level.

What about the Pits' arrows?

Pit's arrows aren't particularly strong and Dark Pit's barely can be moved from a straight line trajectory. I'm not understanding the comparison.