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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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MistressRemilia

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ParanoidDrone

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The matchup is definitely still garbage, but without replays of the match we don't really have anything to look at and go 'Oh, Nairo literally wasn't doing the "You get option-selected by Flip Kick on recovery" or Y punish or Z option' to explain how he did it.
@Nairo swings by this thread sometimes, doesn't he? Can he talk to us about that match?
 

Shady Shaymin

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It's easy to see why nairo placed abnormally low, and why upsets like this are surprisingly common in tournament. Imagine being a top player who not only has to wrestle with his/her own shortcomings and flaws as a player, deal with the plethora of matchup knowledge needed in a game where such a huge portion of the cast is viable, and maintain a consistent performance through long brackets, but also deal with the fundamental, physical game adjustments made every month or so, and on top of that, all the drastic metagame changes that form as a result. ESAM's video on smash 4 consistency got it right.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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I'm well aware of who Big D is. Him bodying your region isn't a surprise to me, lol.

I'm curious about this Grove guy.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Fatmanonice

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Can we take a second and appreciate how far :4mewtwo:has come?
Can we take a second and appreciate how a giant portion of the cast used to be utter garbage until patches helped straighten them out? :4bowser::4bowserjr::4charizard::4dk::4drmario::4falco::4ganondorf::4greninja::4myfriends::4kirby::4link::4lucas::4lucina::4marth::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4palutena::4robinm::4feroy::4samus::4shulk::4wiifit::4zelda: have all received significant buffs since their release and why, more than a year and a half later, nobody (aside from :4jigglypuff:...) has been deemed totally irrelevant. Trust me, if you played Day One :4dk::4myfriends::4robinm:, you know how much of a godsend these patches have been. I doubt they'll continue past the summer but, after following competitive Brawl in its entirety, I'm super grateful for them.
 
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Can we take a second and appreciate how a giant portion of the cast used to be utter garbage until patches helped straighten them out? :4bowser::4bowserjr::4charizard::4dk::4drmario::4falco::4ganondorf::4greninja::4myfriends::4kirby::4link::4lucas::4lucina::4marth::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4palutena::4robinm::4feroy::4samus::4shulk::4wiifit::4zelda: have all received significant buffs since their release and why, more than a year and a half later, nobody (aside from :4jigglypuff:...) has been deemed totally irrelevant. Trust me, if you played Day One :4dk::4myfriends::4robinm:, you know how much of a godsend these patches have been. I doubt they'll continue past the summer but, after following competitive Brawl in its entirety, I'm super grateful for them.
:4feroy: and :4zelda:'s buffs weren't really significant besides Zelda's smashes being able to connect reliably and getting a buffed up air. Roy's landing lag buffs did little to help him gain much attention, and Zelda still suffers from the many core flaws she has in every single Smash game she's in.

I agree with the rest though. Some of them just need the proper representation to get a boost (:4lucas::4lucina::4charizard:). They have the buffs, now we need to see what the characters are more capable of at a high level consistently.
 
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Fatmanonice

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They still suck in the grand scheme of things but at least they're somewhat functional now. Same can be said about :4ganondorf::4palutena::4samus:. As far as I'm concerned the only significantly "flawed" characters still left in the game are :4duckhunt: and :4jigglypuff:. Not too many people trip over their own two feet anymore by being too much of a special snowflake. If you want some prime examples of this, look at the utter mess :4robinm: and :4shulk: used to be when the game first came out.
 

C0rvus

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This game has changed so much. ZeRo used to win everything. Now matches for 9th place are between two killers. What a weird place this game is in. We have the looming threat of a super imbalanced character, yet there's all this diversity regardless.

Such is the nature of a game with DLC and patches.
 

FullMoon

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Greninja was never really garbage to begin with. Patches helped him become a more rounded character but outside of the shuriken buff the biggest buff Greninja got was Sheik being nerfed.

All things considered outside of the headbonk fix the buffs Greninja got were fairly unnecessary overall as the character was already quite good.
 

Fatmanonice

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This game has changed so much. ZeRo used to win everything. Now matches for 9th place are between two killers. What a weird place this game is in. We have the looming threat of a super imbalanced character, yet there's all this diversity regardless.

Such is the nature of a game with DLC and patches.
And, given how things have played out, Bayo's more than likely on the developers' radar along with Cloud (and maybe Rosalina) so the game's in a pretty good spot right now. If things keep going this way, competitive players may need to be pried away from SSB4 with a crowbar once SSB5 comes along.
 

Man Li Gi

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I dunno why I should be grateful for a game that was so busted on release. It was a train wreck for balance and couldn't be even played since it was on the 3DS. 64, Melee and yes Brawl had better balance AMD there was no patches.

Seriously, I want you guys to remember 1.0.0 and remember how Peaches would get banned for playing FG or how vectoring nearly screwed people over.

I'm "grateful" for Nintendo for catching up and letting patches be a thing.

The word grateful to me is a trigger to me when it comes to games because we are BUYING a SERVICE, so I expect it to work. I don't go to car dealership and say how grateful I am for the car to have struts.

I dunno, maybe since we see the face of the creator, we like to place our emotions on him to humanize him and hence why we say grateful.

I digress. Continue on with competitive discussion.
 

PK Gaming

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High level smash is really fun to watch now. Godlike Lurr, Esam doing work, that glorious Kirby run... it's funny how Smash 4 used to be complete opposite of that, wherein top 8s were populated by staples and upsets were rare, rather than the norm. Like, I love Nairo, but I'm so jazzed about him actually getting eliminated in a tournament like that.

And, given how things have played out, Bayo's more than likely on the developers' radar along with Cloud (and maybe Rosalina) so the game's in a pretty good spot right now. If things keep going this way, competitive players may need to be pried away from SSB4 with a crowbar once SSB5 comes along.
Word.

We're like a patch away from having a really solid fighting game. I'm anxiously awaiting the next patch, haha.
 
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Charoite

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nahh the game is already solid, even when compared to others fighting games, considering the size of the roster and the time smash 4 has been played(like 2 years only).
 

Man Li Gi

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Sol released a video about bayo

In all seriousness, being in a scene where we have a couple Bayonettas and where some players were ready to ban her (Chicago is so weird), we already have learned to separate the hate from the player. Tyroy, who has beaten Hyuga twice now and is well respected, plays Bayonetta.....it doesn't prevent people from hating Bayonetta. We don't hate Tyroy though.

I feel like Sol was reading the Twitch chat and random twitter users and those should be taken with a grain of salt.

If it's competitive people complaining, I have two questions for you:
Are you playing to win or are you playing for the experience?

If you are playing to win, you would be choosing your best option who would be Bayonetta. Playing any other character with the mentality of playing to win is simply weakening your chances.

Playing for experience means that if you lose, you gotta use and internalize it so it won't happen again. Its imperative that you just don't quit as then you have (in my mind) given up your right to complain because when you play for experience and lose, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO COME BACK TO GET BETTER!
 

Charoite

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If you are playing to win, you would be choosing your best option who would be Bayonetta. Playing any other character with the mentality of playing to win is simply weakening your chances.
YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO COME BACK TO GET BETTER!
So far Bayo placements hasn't been impressive for a broken character , considering that :4cloud:has better results in the same timespan,i doubt she is the best option.
 

C0rvus

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Top players aren't playing Bayonetta. TTTTTsd TTTTTsd put it best, she's been soft banned. Not an actual ban, but she's frowned upon. Stops noone from playing her. I also think top players don't want to invest in her because she's likely to be neutered by the next patch. Just some food for thought. Not a single don't in my mind that she is broken. She is.
 

Charoite

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Top players aren't playing Bayonetta. TTTTTsd TTTTTsd put it best, she's been soft banned. Not an actual ban, but she's frowned upon. Stops noone from playing her. I also think top players don't want to invest in her because she's likely to be neutered by the next patch. Just some food for thought. Not a single don't in my mind that she is broken. She is.
and investing in the character is actually what top players need to do if they want she to be nerfed, they all can say that she is broken, but if they dont demonstrate how she good is, then how the balance team, would adjust bayo??? hell if she is really that good you would think top players would pick her to win tournaments, then if in 3 months(the balance patch are like every 2 or 3 months) they dont nerf she, you would still win tournaments for other 3 months, it's exactly what zer0 do, and it worked.
 
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MF Viewtiful

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Top players aren't playing Bayonetta. TTTTTsd TTTTTsd put it best, she's been soft banned. Not an actual ban, but she's frowned upon. Stops noone from playing her. I also think top players don't want to invest in her because she's likely to be neutered by the next patch. Just some food for thought. Not a single don't in my mind that she is broken. She is.
I find that top players avoid Bayo really odd, scrubby almost. Say a character is busted, but to not abuse said bustedness leaves a lot of money and championships on the table. If you got alphabet soup in front of your tag and your expressed purpose of play is to win, you may actually be dumb for not having some form of Bayo play.

If people truly feel strongly on how Bayo screws up the meta, they should follow Damdai's example for Super Turbo HD Remix. That game attempted to bring balance to ST Akuma (an actual BANNED character) and make him a tourney legal fighter. Damdai still found Akuma too strong and proved it by literally winning every tourney he entered and proving in great detail how HDR Akuma was still dumb.

Saying you play to win and shaming people using Bayo feels off at best and probably hypocritical.
 

C0rvus

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"If you are playing to win, play Bayonetta or you're doing it wrong" is an argument that doesn't really hold water in real life. (Especially because she's a DLC character.) The reasons players play the game and use the characters they do is often more complex than that.

And ZeRo is swearing off Bayonetta. You think it's because he actually thinks she's secretly bad? I think it's for PR reasons mostly. And because he can still win events with Sheik and Diddy. In competitive play, comfort is a factor. People who are winning with Diddy, Fox, Rosalina, etc don't all jump ship to Bayo because they can still win with the characters they have already invested months and months of play into.

And noone in particular is shaming people for playing Bayonetta. The soft ban exists only because the community at large dislikes the character. It's not a rule. That's the point.
 
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Emblem Lord

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I dont wanna hear any Bayo propaganda from someone that mained pre-patch Diddy Kong and had the audacity to tell me to my FACE that MY main (Ryu) is silly and not fun to fight.

I respect ZeRo for his skill. It ends there.

I could wipe my ass with his opinion.
 

TTTTTsd

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I find that top players avoid Bayo really odd, scrubby almost. Say a character is busted, but to not abuse said bustedness leaves a lot of money and championships on the table. If you got alphabet soup in front of your tag and your expressed purpose of play is to win, you may actually be dumb for not having some form of Bayo play.

If people truly feel strongly on how Bayo screws up the meta, they should follow Damdai's example for Super Turbo HD Remix. That game attempted to bring balance to ST Akuma (an actual BANNED character) and make him a tourney legal fighter. Damdai still found Akuma too strong and proved it by literally winning every tourney he entered and proving in great detail how HDR Akuma was still dumb.

Saying you play to win and shaming people using Bayo feels off at best and probably hypocritical.
It is scrubby, but that's the essence of soft bans and they've been around since ST introduced Old Sagat lol. It's a method that technically bans a character solely through negative stigma and it's terrible and awful but that's what happens when jokes turn into serious opinions and people get adamant about it.

Also I agree, people should try and prove it. That's the mentality that SHOULD be present, it'd at least get some **** done.

btw Mewtwo is about to win a big ass stacked event lol. Hope y'all are prepared.
 
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MF Viewtiful

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It is scrubby, but that's the essence of soft bans and they've been around since ST introduced Old Sagat lol. It's a method that technically bans a character solely through negative stigma and it's terrible and awful but that's what happens when jokes turn into serious opinions and people get adamant about it.

Also I agree, people should try and prove it. That's the mentality that SHOULD be present, it'd at least get some **** done.

btw Mewtwo is about to win a big *** stacked event lol. Hope y'all are prepared.
It's probably cause I play O Sagat, but I never paid soft bans any mind.
 

zeldasmash

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It is scrubby, but that's the essence of soft bans and they've been around since ST introduced Old Sagat lol. It's a method that technically bans a character solely through negative stigma and it's terrible and awful but that's what happens when jokes turn into serious opinions and people get adamant about it.

Also I agree, people should try and prove it. That's the mentality that SHOULD be present, it'd at least get some **** done.

btw Mewtwo is about to win a big *** stacked event lol. Hope y'all are prepared.
:4link: to stream, please. I wanna see this! :awesome:
 

ReroRero

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I dont wanna hear any Bayo propaganda from someone that mained pre-patch Diddy Kong and had the audacity to tell me to my FACE that MY main (Ryu) is silly and not fun to fight.

I respect ZeRo for his skill. It ends there.

I could wipe my *** with his opinion.
He really said that about Ryu ? He is so fun to fight against imo.

Well about Ryu, I find his lack of presence in Pound a little bit odd for a pretended top tier character :/
 

TurboLink

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He really said that about Ryu ? He is so fun to fight against imo.

Well about Ryu, I find his lack of presence in Pound a little bit odd for a pretended top tier character :/
Some people might not like their jumps being such a commitment. Or they might not like "playing Street Fighter."
 
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Emblem Lord

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He really said that about Ryu ? He is so fun to fight against imo.

Well about Ryu, I find his lack of presence in Pound a little bit odd for a pretended top tier character :/

Why play a char that has neutral conversions into high damage but commits heavily to most of his actions when you can play a character that has neutral conversions into death and takes less time to be consistent with and has a far better recovery and a better match-up spread?
 
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TheGlove

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[/QUOTE]
He really said that about Ryu ? He is so fun to fight against imo.

Well about Ryu, I find his lack of presence in Pound a little bit odd for a pretended top tier character :/
Dj Jack got 25, I believe solo ryu. False got 17th but apparently he used a lot of Marth. I don't believe any of the other notable Ryu's showed up and Trela, Best Ryu left by a results standpoint did not show up.

These are honestly not terrible results for ryu considering he has pretty low rep overall.

If you are looking at the 4BR tier list placement then this view is understandable, but that tier is is generally agreed to be be fairly flawed.

Also don't take Dj Jacks Tweet to seriously out of context. He is literally just making a funny comment based on the fact a mew two is in Grands, and picking up does not equal dropping ryu
 
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ReroRero

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Some people might not like their jumps being such a commitment. Or they might not like "playing Street Fighter."
Why play a char that has neutral conversions into high damage but commits heavily to most of his actions when you can play a character that has neutral conversions into death and takes less time to be consistent with and has a far better recovery and a better match-up spread?
What do you mean by commitment ?
 

Zelder

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I said this in the other thread, but big props to Ally for eliminating 4 consecutive characters that you could argue have an advantage over him (Corrin, DK, Cloud, and Sheik). I think this speaks to one of Mario's biggest strengths: no one beats him too badly.

edit: Of course, it's also important to note that Ally is playing out of his damn head right now.

double secret edit: Mario's other big strength? He's immune to patches :yeahboi:
 
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bc1910

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Can I give a mad shoutout to Shaya Shaya who about 2 months ago made a post saying that we should learn the Mewtwo and Toon Link MUs, to get ahead of the game before they start making waves in tourney. If I can find the post I'll link it.
 
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