Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

What do you mean by commitment ?

When Ryu jumps...thats it...he jumps. Other then Focus Attack Dash Cancel of course.

 

[zeldasmash]

Mewtwo just won Pound!

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler: Pound 2016 Top 48 (513 entrants)

1st
Abadango

2nd
Ally

3rd
Marss

4th
Mr. R

5th
Tweek
VoiD

7th
Larry Lurr
Pink Fresh

9th
Dabuz
Hyuga
ESAM
K.I.D. Goggles

13th
ScAtt
Saj
NAKAT
K9

17th
Angel Cortes
Pugwest
False
SS
Xaltis
Raptor
Seagull Joe
MVD

25th
C3PO
Mister Eric
DJ Jack
Zenyou
Snow
James
iStudying
Jbandrew

33rd
Seibrik
AceStarThe3rd
ADHD
Craftis
Wizzrobe
Viceroy
Day
SETHsational
Boss
San
Mr.II
WaDiRob
Tension
Remzi
Richie Business
Riz

And by looking at all the characters used in top 48 alone:

x6 x5 x4 x4 x3 x3 x3 x2 x2 x2 x2 x2 x2 x2 x2 x2x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1

You see there? That's 29 different characters, more than half the cast. That's amazing. Really great to see how the first big national after patch 1.1.5 turned out.

 

[BunbUn129]

M2 won a major tourney. What's real?

If people had doubts of M2 being high tier, that's all gone now.

And if he gets consistent results, he's gonna get into top tier.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Well, i guess Mewtwo just won a major.
Top tier Mewtwo anyone? Close to Ness may be accurate.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

CONGRATS ABADANGO!
What a hype top 8. Im convinced M2 is at least top 20

 

[BunbUn129]

M2 is broken and toxic to competitive play. Abadango is good but not that good. He was carried by his broken character. We should definitely ban Mewtwo because he's ruining the meta game.


Edit: I'm calling it, what I just typed above is going to become a common saying.

 

[FullMoon]

Mewtwo won a major before Pikachu

Eyy

 

[BunbUn129]

With M2's victory, Pikachu is now mid-tier if M2 is high tier.

Edit: Ryu's jumps are high commital because he has the lowest aerial acceleration in the game (0.025), which was done to mimic the physics in Street Fighter, where characters jump in a fixed arc.

 

[Jucchan]

Spoiler: Pound 2016 Top 33 (513 entrants)

1st
Abadango

2nd
Ally

3rd
Marss

4th
Mr. R

5th
Tweek
VoiD

7th
Larry Lurr
Pink Fresh

9th
Dabuz
Hyuga
ESAM
K.I.D. Goggles

13th
ScAtt
Saj
NAKAT
K9

17th
Angel Cortes
Pugwest
False
SS
Xaltis
Raptor
Seagull Joe
MVD

25th
C3PO
Mister Eric
DJ Jack
Zenyou
Snow
James
iStudying
Jbandrew

33rd
Seibrik
AceStarThe3rd
ADHD
Craftis
Wizzrobe
Viceroy
Day
SETHsational
Boss
San
Mr.II
WaDiRob (don't know, somebody clarify)
Tension
Remzi
Richie Business
Riz

And by looking at all the characters used in top 33 alone:

x6 x5 x4 x4 x3 x3 x3 x2 x2 x2 x2 x2 x2 x2 x2 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1 x1x1 x1 x1 x1

You see there? That's 29 different characters, more than half the cast. That's amazing. Really great to see how the first big national after patch 1.1.5 turned out.

You mean Top 48.

 

[Nu~]

The meta is all types of weird now. I'm loving how this patch is turning out.

 

[ARGHETH]

M2 is broken and toxic to competitive play. Abadango is good but not that good. He was carried by his broken character. We should definitely ban Mewtwo because he's ruining the meta game.

Please don't. We really don't need this here; take it to Reddit if you really want to.
Also, this kind of doesn't work against someone who got 4th at EVO and 7th at TBH5.

 

[BunbUn129]

Please don't. We really don't need this here; take it to Reddit if you really want to.
Also, this kind of doesn't work against someone who got 4th at EVO and 7th at TBH5.

Uh, I was joking? And I know Aba is amazing, anyone who thinks he's getting carried is a lunatic.

 

[Deleted member]

You mean Top 48.

I'm pretty sure that's the Top 33. Did I list something wrong? EDIT: Oops, I forgot how to count lmao

Please don't. We really don't need this here; take it to Reddit if you really want to.
Also, this kind of doesn't work against someone who got 4th at EVO and 7th at TBH5.

He was jesting, brah.

 

[Nu~]

Please don't. We really don't need this here; take it to Reddit if you really want to.
Also, this kind of doesn't work against someone who got 4th at EVO and 7th at TBH5.

It was sarcastic lol. Making fun of the hyperbolic bayonetta complainers


Edit: Woah... Ninja'd twice.

 

[Zelder]

He's making a joke but I agree: how can you watch an amazing top 8 like that and immediately go for a dig at all the Bayo drama again? Let's just bask in these nice feelings for a second.

 

[BSP]

@ the apparently unspoken Bayonetta soft ban thing, I think that's pretty dumb considering we have a patch team that's clearly paying attention to what's going on at top level play. For all of their faults, they've saved singles once from Diddy, and they've saved doubles twice from bucket/magnet/pocket and aerial finishing touch (kinda...Cloud is still silly lol).

None of us expected 1.1.5, and to my knowledge they still haven't said they're officially done. This would be the prime time to show that Bayo is problematic in full force imo. Tournaments will suck for a while yeah, but the problem would get fixed.

 

[Dinoman96]

The changes Mewtwo got in the patches were amazing.

I just wish others like Zelda, Jigglypuff, etc got the same treatment, but alas. I hope Sakurai and his team keep working on Samus like what they did in the recent update, so that maybe we can see her win a big tournament like this one day.

 

[BunbUn129]

I was joking, but like I said above, I wouldn't be surprised at all if something similar to that happens.

People really need to learn how to play the neutral game to see how Bayo isn't broken or worthy of a ban; no bull**** about SDI and DI.

 

[bc1910]

So many questions.

What does this really mean for Mewtwo? Are we looking at an A- or even S-tier character? Or did this result come from a deadly combination of top player + obscure character? Perhaps a mixture of both?

With Rosalina having such bad MUs against MK and Cloud, is she even solo viable? Let alone top 3 in the game?

Is Bayo really problematic, considering she only got 7th and didn't accomplish anything you wouldn't expect from your average top tier? Aside from maybe sending Nairo to losers early (which has happened before)?

And perhaps most importantly...

Who the hell is the best character in the game?

 

[ARGHETH]

Uh, I was joking? And I know Aba is amazing, anyone who thinks he's getting carried is a lunatic.

I realize that. I've just seen way too much of the "___ is broken because something happened" mocking the whole Bayonetta thing on Reddit and it's gotten really annoying.

 

[C0rvus]

People complaining that Mewtwo has no representation will be happy to know that now he will be everywhere. Aren't you glad? It'll be like Meta Knight all over again. (When Leo beat Mr. R and everyone suddenly realized that hey, that character is hella good. I want to play him now!)

 

[Smashifer]

EDIT: 'd don't mind me

 

[BunbUn129]

So many questions.

What does this really mean for Mewtwo? Are we looking at an A- or even S-tier character? Or did this result come from a deadly combination of top player + obscure character? Perhaps a mixture of both?

With Rosalina having such bad MUs against MK and Cloud, is she even solo viable? Let alone top 3 in the game?

Is Bayo really problematic, considering she only got 7th and didn't accomplish anything you wouldn't expect from your average top tier? Aside from maybe sending Nairo to losers early (which has happened before)?

And perhaps most importantly...

Who the hell is the best character in the game?

There's one thing holding M2 back from being a definite top tier: weight. Aba was playing really carefully and as close to flawless as possible. M2's kit would be utterly broken if you gave him decent weight.

Rosa will probably be solo-viable, but she requires more effort and most players find her play style unappealing, so bad MU's vs MK and Cloud won't be really that big of a factor.

Bayo isn't a problem or even a cancer: the community is being cancerous. Like I said in posts a while back, the players who want her banned are either joking or simply don't know how to play neutral. Playing defensively against Bayo shuts her down, because you're eliminating the chance of landing Witch Twist OoS and Witch Time.

Cloud is the best. It's harder to exploit his recovery than it is to exploit Bayo's neutral game.

 

[Megamang]

Shhh aba blowing up our spot.

I wish @Dabuz was at Pound really really badly. I want to see Aba vs Dabuz, people say M2 is even with Rosa, or close, but I haven't seen it at a high level and I have some trouble with Rosa as M2. Dabuz is also a great lab player/ plays to the matchup optimally so we'd see a real stress test for Mewtwo's lightness.


EDIT: @ Above. Bayonetta can still open up her crazy combo tree from a grab, if you don't react perfectly, and even then you can't always avoid it (once thrown I mean). I feel Cloud has less room for optimization of punishments, since uairs basically the best thing you can land in 90% of situations.

Shes a character that i'm really glad she is light. M2 does well against her by the way, its nice having a 14% throw, command grab, and 25% projectile, and upwards kill throw (her weight betrays her here), but thats always M2's hand.

---

Also, Mewtwo's dtilt is an amazing tool. Great for little pokes, and when it doesn't combo into aerials anymore (which is a pretty high percent, or tip spacing + DI) it still sets up horrific setups for the opponent, like being fair'd near the ledge at high percent, run in U-smashed if you try to aerial, or simple dashgrab if you try and land for defensive situations. Nair is amazing, with lingering hitboxes that setup into all kinds of bad situations as we saw, and surprising ability to pressure in unique situations since it is really low lag.

Of course, his actual grab is mediocre at best, he can't super snag you with a dashgrab like a lot of characters. His disadvantage isn't great, once you get him away from stage control he has to kinda float around and try and get it back from a stray fair or something. A few wrong exchanges here and you die.

So... he is a well executed glass cannon. I love it!

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

People complaining that Mewtwo has no representation will be happy to know that now he will be everywhere. Aren't you glad? It'll be like Meta Knight all over again. (When Leo beat Mr. R and everyone suddenly realized that hey, that character is hella good. I want to play him now!)

He was definitely on the rise thanks to his buffs and other M2 players such as Blue but this win solidifies M2's place as a likely high tier and his player base will grow because of it.

 

[NotLiquid]

So many questions.

What does this really mean for Mewtwo? Are we looking at an A- or even S-tier character? Or did this result come from a deadly combination of top player + obscure character? Perhaps a mixture of both?

With Rosalina having such bad MUs against MK and Cloud, is she even solo viable? Let alone top 3 in the game?

Is Bayo really problematic, considering she only got 7th and didn't accomplish anything you wouldn't expect from your average top tier? Aside from maybe sending Nairo to losers early (which has happened before)?

And perhaps most importantly...

Who the hell is the best character in the game?

Number placements at this point are almost entirely nebulous. The changes in Smash 4's balance have pushed the game more and more into prioritizing the actual categorization of tiers rather than the individual order of each characters, which feels closer to how fighting game tiers generally work. More and more this game is moving into being the kind of game where dual mains is a much more viable strategy. If anything, ZeRo might have had this foresight from the start by keeping Diddy in his ranks. Even die hard players like ESAM is now starting to veer away from putting all of his focus on Pikachu.

It's crazy to say this and would have been impossible to believe at the start of the game's competitive tenure but Smash 4 is making a solid case right now as being the most balanced Smash game to date.

 

[Trifroze]

I think people are swayed way too easily, Mewtwo is a good character who was partially carried by a very good player and partially by matchup inexperience. But he's a good character.

 

[Nobie]

To all prospective Mewtwo mains:

Prepare to cry into your oatmeal as one mistake causes you to die at 65%.

Half the battle with Mewtwo is maintaining composure after getting wrecked. Good luck with your new glass cannon.

 

[Broqan]

The buffs to Mewtwo and nerfs to Sheik made this a reality. No one cant deny that.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Things I took away from this tournament:

-sheik is definitely still top tier, no less than top 10
-pikachu's future doesn't look so great, and he will probably end up somewhere around B tier, even lower if esam drops him
-cloud is more broken than bayonetta, but they will still both get nerfed
-mewtwo is top tier and 3.99 is the new twitchchat meta
-smash 4 is going to grow tremendously in the next few months and we will see the game continue to grow in character diversity, spectator hype, and more proportional skill-reward ratios with the gradually decreasing jank factor

Big congratulations to dedicated Mewtwo mains everywhere; you sat through relentless character criticism, deaths at 60%, and a seemingly bleak future, only to be rewarded for your loyalty. And to all the frauds who trolled smashboards months ago to say how bad he was but are currently on the DLC store paying a clean 3.99, all I can say is no johns.

 

[C0rvus]

Shhh aba blowing up our spot.

I wish @Dabuz was at Pound really really badly. I want to see Aba vs Dabuz, people say M2 is even with Rosa, or close, but I haven't seen it at a high level and I have some trouble with Rosa as M2. Dabuz is also a great lab player/ plays to the matchup optimally so we'd see a real stress test for Mewtwo's lightness.

He was at pound. Got eliminated just outside of top 8. Lost to Abadango and Larry Lurr.
Aba played Meta Knight against him. I feel like Dabuz would blow up his Mewtwo, even thought it's an even matchup.

 

[Locke 06]

The constant memes are p. annoying. I'd much prefer some actual analysis. Take your feels to a social thread.

1. Smashville vs Mewtwo. Not a fan. Mario had center stage about 80% of that match, but couldn't really do much due to Mewtwo's movement mixups. DJC shadowball charge>shield/grab is legit, as are teleport cancels>f2 airdodge.

2. Grounded standing Mewtwo has some of the best anti-ground approach games in Smash 4. This hasn't changed and, imo, was always his strongest point. Dtilt is one of the best and Abadango really showed off using confusion as a ranged command grab. Now, he can play from standing/walking into running and be a threat due to his increased speed and threat of SH NAir/high reward grab. (I will also say that the increase in NAir hitbox size probably plays a role in its increase in threat).

3. Mewtwo's weight felt like a non-issue vs both Marss and Ally (the only matches I watched). He felt more like Sheik weight than Game & Watch weight (or even Rosa weight). People may cite the weight buff, but I can't tell if that's actually why or because Mewtwo just didn't get hit.

3a. Also, ZSS up air nerf really does hurt, and will be interesting to see. The reward difference between BAir and UAir is really striking.

4. Abadango really understands how NAir works, and that's something to be applauded.

 

[wedl!!]

Mewtwo's nair is godly.

It's what Lucas nair should've been.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Good **** to Aba with Mewtwo. As we all know I love me some footsie based chars.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If Cloud is somehow broken because he placed over Bayo then damn we'd better get to fixing up Mario, what a borked char.

Some takeaway points
- Landing lag reduction and hitbox increase on Mewtwo's Nair are the most relevant buffs in the world.
- Cloud doesn't really look like #1 though he still looks damn good and viable.
- Refreshing placement for Mario! Probably his highest since game launch relative to how stacked this event was.
- Amazing character diversity! Seriously holy crap!

I don't feel like talking about nerfs because if this is the standard for the future then we're in a really, REALLY good spot and it's only going to get better.

 

[Lhivorde]

Nobody in their right mind was saying Bayonetta was broken meaning invincible/unbeatable, that'd be foolish and verifiably wrong. People say she's broken because she doesn't seem to follow the same rules of trade-offs and risk/reward that other characters in this game do. Obviously she's beatable. Mocking people who are upset with the character does nothing to help anyone. Learn, lab, and teach people how to beat her. But don't mock people or laugh at them for being upset. That's just as childish as calling for a ban only a few months after her release.

This isn't really addressed to anyone specifically, but I've been seeing more people than I'd like on here, reddit, and twitter who don't seem to get it. They seem to think that just because Bayonetta isn't winning any huge tournaments, she's perfectly fine and balanced, and that people who get upset with the character are foolish. That's simply not the case. They're upset for the same reason people get mad at Ice Climbers. Because losing to Bayonetta is more brutally unfun for them than any other aspect of the game. This isn't illegitimate whining, it's based on the fact that people play games to have fun, and something got added to a game that makes that enjoyment harder for them. Should fun have anything to do with rulesets, or balance decisions? I don't know, I'm just some guy who likes watching Smash on the weekends. But people shouldn't EVER be mocked for wanting to have fun.

This may not be the right place for this post, so sorry for the rant if it's not.

 

[wedl!!]

I've been guilty of underrating Mario.

In a previous iteration of this thread someone called Mario this game's Brawl Marth (I can't remember who it was); in theory he isn't amazing, but then you look at his results and shut up about it.

 

[PK Gaming]

Well, Mewtwo just won a Major

God is real...?

 

[Broqan]

One thing I will note is that I never saw aba going for full charge Shadow ball. Too predictable maybe idk.