Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Trunks159]

what the hell are ACTUAL 0-deaths, anyways? they seem to be more like 20-deaths. not unlike prepatch .

actually, is A LOT like prepatch . i'm surprised people didn't rail on him as hard as they are railing on right now.

killed from a shield grabbable dash attack at specific percents, and required more precision. You could also camp him from the edge.

 

[Shaya]

http://smashboards.com/threads/banning-bayonetta-in-tournaments.433725/

Retroactive infractions and moving will probably happen. Stop ****ing up this thread.

 

[Charoite]

edit:nevermind

 

[Nobie]

u sure about bein the hardest character in the game to hit?

abadango made look MIGHTY SLIPPERY today.

That's not quite right.

Mewtwo isn't the hardest character to hit in the game. Mewtwos just HAVE to be as slippery as they possibly can or else they get bodied.

What people say about Bayonetta being able to end your stocks from one mistake, that's how Mewtwo feels fighting half the cast.

 

[BunbUn129]

Okay, Shaya is getting a little mad.

Let's change the discussion: with blowing out into the scene, and ESAM not doing very well at all, how does stand at the present time?

I'm not being silly, I'm genuinely interested in how M2 winning a major before Pika will affect the views on Pika.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It is certainly too early to be banning Bayonetta, but Pound 2016 proved very little at this stage. OK, so she didn't make top 8. She's been out for like 2 months. Just wait until the dedicated players have had 6 to 9 to 12 months of polish with her. The apologists are doing much to help her case by saying things like "she is beatable". I don't see many people saying "she is bad" or that she struggles once the opponent employs certain strategies. Saying she is "beatable" means (as people have already pointed out) that she has severe imbalances that force incredibly unorthodox styles of play.

The rest of this year will be quite telling with regard to her actual potential. No, she's currently not a threat, but she's not off the hook either.

 

[NairWizard]

The heck?

Mewtwo and Pikachu have absolutely nothing to do with one another outside of being from the same game series lol.

That's like saying, Yoshi did well, I wonder how this will reflect on Bowser?

 

[Lhivorde]

Did we learn anything new about top-level mewtwo play from pound? Aside from the obvious proof of viability.

 

[BunbUn129]

NairWizard Pika is considered overrated, and is to many a high tier. M2 was previously low-tier, and with good buffs, he takes a major before Pikachu. Like it or not, it very likely will have an effect on the views surrounding Pika.

If Pika is a high-tier, then M2 is at least just as good.

 

[ARGHETH]

NairWizard Pika is considered overrated, and is to many a high tier. M2 was previously low-tier, and with good buffs, he takes a major before Pikachu. Like it or not, it very likely will have an effect on the views surrounding Pika.

...
Not by much. Outside of here, I don't think many people will really change their views on Pikachu based on Mewtwo winning a major because they're so different aside from being from the same series.

 

[Yonder]

Did we learn anything new about top-level mewtwo play from pound? Aside from the obvious proof of viability.

Footstool to disable kill confirms and that nair is the bnb neutral tool is what I took from it. Also that M2 can chain almost any two aerials together from a double jump.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ever since I suggested Mewtwo might be the strongest pokemon in smash, people haven't stopped using the comparison.

They don't play anything alike, like at all. I just wanted the "world strongest pokemon" joke to stick.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Pika's going down. It's sad to see my former main struggle like this. Maybe one day he'll make a comeback when 20XX is real and we all optimize our offstage game to ridiculous levels. I just hope esam doesn't drop him :'(

 

[Amadeus9]

Pika's going down. It's sad to see my former main struggle like this. Maybe one day he'll make a comeback when 20XX is real and we all optimize our offstage game to ridiculous levels. I just hope esam doesn't drop him :'(

I hope he does, he deserves to win every now and then, he's pretty good at smash even if he is way too much of a zealot about pika

 

[FallofBrawl]

Mewtwo is potentially the best Pokemon in this game.

IMO it goes Cat > Rat > Dog = Frog >> Dragon > Balloon

 

[NairWizard]

As much as I am excited to see the development of Mewtwo's metagame (and to play the character myself), I also think it's prudent not to overrate him. Very few people know anything about the character, so matchup inexperience was definitely a factor in his success today, and although we saw plenty of his top-tier matchups (Sonic, Sheik, some Fox, ZSS, Mario), we also didn't see several others (Ness, Cloud, Bayonetta, Ryu), as well as many of his mid-tier and below matchups (how does he do vs. DK? Lucario? Yoshi?). Too soon to be shipping him to Top Tier.

 

[BunbUn129]

I feel like ESAM has reached his maximum extent with Pikachu. Not being able to kill without a read is a roadblock that cannot be overstated. At least to me, he seemed really frustrated at Pound, and I for one don't think him dropping Pikachu is out of the question.

ESAM has been the face of Pikachu for years, but we must be real: Pikachu ain't gonna be paying the bills.

 

[Y2Kay]

My Lord, what have I started?

There's no need to compare the Pokemon, guys!

 

[Nobie]

As much as I am excited to see the development of Mewtwo's metagame (and to play the character myself), I also think it's prudent not to overrate him. Very few people know anything about the character, so matchup inexperience was definitely a factor in his success today, and although we saw plenty of his top-tier matchups (Sonic, Sheik, some Fox, ZSS, Mario), we also didn't see several others (Ness, Cloud, Bayonetta, Ryu), as well as many of his mid-tier and below matchups (how does he do vs. DK? Lucario? Yoshi?). Too soon to be shipping him to Top Tier.

On the other hand, Void uses Mewtwo every so often, and has experience fighting Rich Brown's Mewtwo in SoCal, and even he fell to Abadango.

If anything, it shows just how differently all of the top Mewtwos play. Abadango might be the best mix of all of them though.

By the way, I'm still optimistic about Pikachu. The rat's another Mario, and having kill confirms doesn't even guarantee being a high tier.

 

[Y2Kay]

A mewtwo main forced arguably the best solo sheik main in the world to switch to his secondary.

He has to do this so little I didn't even know he had a secondary Fox till today. That's just crazy!

 

[Trunks159]

I'll throw some thoughts out there.
I was continuously impressed by Larry's 's edge guarding. His matches against Scatt and Dabuz and such were pretty much just relentlessly never letting go of that ledge.

's success against Mr. R's was yet another inspiring performance.
was disappointing tbh. I was kind of expecting one in Top 16.
was an inch away from top 16. This is kind of huge.
was also disappointing, but ADHD's return was awesome. Diddy now has Zero, MVD, Zinoto, ADHD, Angel Cortes. Definitely no lack of representation there.
performed very well, especially considering his poor representation.
yet again with good results
And now has one of the best players to rep her so we better see some nice results.

 

[C0rvus]

Greninja mains, what does this character have over Mewtwo? I was struggling thinking about this today, as my friend wanted to pick up a secondary for his Mewtwo. His first choice was Greninja. But I thought, Mewtwo can play campy like Greninja. He can also anti-zone better than him, his footsies are better, his recovery is better. So I talked him down from Greninja. Surely I'm missing something or underrating frog, but I can't think of what, aside from his weight and size. Mewtwo even runs faster than him now.

Greninja is clearly a capable character, but Mewtwo seems to me to outclass him at the moment.

And no, this isn't because of what you started, Mewtwo-Chainz. Not comparing them arbitrarily. I actually had this thought today.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja mains, what does this character have over Mewtwo? I was struggling thinking about this today, as my friend wanted to pick up a secondary for his Mewtwo. His first choice was Greninja. But I thought, Mewtwo can play campy like Greninja. He can also anti-zone better than him, his footsies are better, his recovery is better. So I talked him down from Greninja. Surely I'm missing something or underrating frog, but I can't think of what, aside from his weight and size. Mewtwo even runs faster than him now.

And no, this isn't because of what you started, Mewtwo-Chainz. Not comparing them arbitrarily. I actually had this thought today.

Tool wise, nothing besides dying later. Greninja, however, does well against , characters that Mewtwo dislikes a lot.

 

[A10theHero]

I feel like ESAM has reached his maximum extent with Pikachu. Not being able to kill without a read is a roadblock that cannot be overstated. At least to me, he seemed really frustrated at Pound, and I for one don't think him dropping Pikachu is out of the question.

ESAM has been the face of Pikachu for years, but we must be real: Pikachu ain't gonna be paying the bills.

Regardless of whether you think Pikachu isn't paying bills or not, if you think ESAM has reached the maximum potential of Pikachu, you're just plain wrong.
First of all, nobody should be saying that for any character. Even in Melee, years later, people are still learning some new things that were unknown before. Smash 4 has only been out for a fraction of the time. How could we have already reached the full potential of a character? And that's not even considering the fact that we have a small playerbase and so less players means his meta is being pushed forward at a slower rate.
And saying that it's ESAM who reached the end is just plain insulting. He's not a labber; he doesn't do research or try to look into aspects of Pikachu's gameplay. He'll only incorporate something new into his play after it's been out for a while, and even then, he still doesn't do everything we'd recommend. Like today in his last two matches against Ally was the first time I've seen him put more emphasis on playing on the ground rather than on the air to fight Mario. This isn't something new or unheard of. It's been an important discussion point for quite a while. And then there was using SHAC Dair as an alternative to Fair. There's so much he doesn't do that could help him. I know that ESAM is our top player and he's the one every non-Pikachu main looks at to judge Pikachu's merits, but that's about it. Everything done with Pikachu isn't done by him, even if you don't see it happening.

 

[BunbUn129]

Regardless of whether you think Pikachu isn't paying bills or not, if you think ESAM has reached the maximum potential of Pikachu, you're just plain wrong.
First of all, nobody should be saying that for any character. Even in Melee, years later, people are still learning some new things that were unknown before. Smash 4 has only been out for a fraction of the time. How could we have already reached the full potential of a character? And that's not even considering the fact that we have a small playerbase and so less players means his meta is being pushed forward at a slower rate.
And saying that it's ESAM who reached the end is just plain insulting. He's not a labber; he doesn't do research or try to look into aspects of Pikachu's gameplay. He'll only incorporate something new into his play after it's been out for a while, and even then, he still doesn't do everything we'd recommend. Like today in his last two matches against Ally was the first time I've seen him put more emphasis on playing on the ground rather than on the air to fight Mario. This isn't something new or unheard of. It's been an important discussion point for quite a while. And then there was using SHAC Dair as an alternative to Fair. There's so much he doesn't do that could help him. I know that ESAM is our top player and he's the one every non-Pikachu main looks at to judge Pikachu's merits, but that's about it. Everything done with Pikachu isn't done by him, even if you don't see it happening.

I said "maximum extent" as in he seems like he can't do anything consistently or particularly noteworthy with the character anymore. If ESAM wants to have better results, either he steps up his game with Pikachu really hard, or he needs to change his character. And while characters will always evolve, few will experience huge breakthroughs in their development, not counting buffs and nerfs.

You're right about everything you said.

 

[Yonder]

Greninja mains, what does this character have over Mewtwo? I was struggling thinking about this today, as my friend wanted to pick up a secondary for his Mewtwo. His first choice was Greninja. But I thought, Mewtwo can play campy like Greninja. He can also anti-zone better than him, his footsies are better, his recovery is better. So I talked him down from Greninja. Surely I'm missing something or underrating frog, but I can't think of what, aside from his weight and size. Mewtwo even runs faster than him now.

Greninja is clearly a capable character, but Mewtwo seems to me to outclass him at the moment.

And no, this isn't because of what you started, Mewtwo-Chainz. Not comparing them arbitrarily. I actually had this thought today.

Besides the obvious higher weight, HW has better mobility overall in the air (and ground I think?) And a better D throw for combos and low % f smash confirms.

Hard to think of what else Greninja has worse or better, both characters are hard to compare side by side their tools. They just play vastly different.

I think the two characters are very close together in the high tier though. Which one being better almost feels like a toss up. Maybe M2 by a hair because as shown today, M2's range is really hard to rival. ZSS could only get in with Zair. Mario could not get in almost at all and had to overwhelm M2 with his superior frame data.

I think an interesting topic would be: who gives M2 the greatest struggle now? Sheik has been proven to be extemeely doable for M2, can hold his own against ZSS, even Fox who is often perceived as one of M2's worst. Mario, another bad one I thought showed just how badly he can be kept out.

I want to say DK is M2's worst matchup atm, but I could be wrong. Ding dong is already a stupid, stupid tool that should be nerfed a bit (as shown at pound, it makes DK kill range play very stale and predictable. Reduce his landing lag and make fair and dair come out quicker.) On M2 though, I could see it killing super early while M2 has to contest DK's range while also putting up with his heavy weight. Unless M2 camps with Shadow Ball. Even then, DKWill has shown how effective DK is against M2)

Or could it be Rosalina that secretly gives M2 a hard time? It was the only matchup Aba didn't use M2 for, but I think this is more due to MK straight wrecking Rosa than M2 losing to her.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo's toughest top tier matchups IMO are . is also tough too

 

[Mr. Johan]

5th fastest on the ground now with an Usmash that kills at 85% with longer moves including a frame 6 Fair?

Well guys, pre-patch Sonic is back. Only this time he's Mewtwo.



jesus ****ing christ

Ayyy, look who won a major while pre-patch Sonic didn't.

 

[Trifroze]

This time Ally showing really well how ZSS struggles with defensive play and opponents who don't spam unnecessary airdodges. She might be the character with the most trouble vs shields when the opponent is at high percents, although at lower percents they have to be scared of her grab. The removal of guaranteed dthrow to uair kill is a pretty big deal vs this kind of play, and it kind of sucks because it didn't work before 130% to begin with and was risky to go for if ZSS was also at high percents. That said Marss still could've had either of those sets. He also really showcased how good up b OoS is when you know it's guaranteed and how usmash is actually a viable tool.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Mewtwo generally doesn't like heavies. Think he probably wins vs. Ganondorf after his buffs but not by much. Raw power on basically everything is not something he wants to deal with.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ayyy, look who won a major while pre-patch Sonic didn't.

If we wanna play the "I told you so" game, I clearly won lol.

 

[BunbUn129]

Mewtwo's toughest top tier matchups IMO are . is also tough too

Could you elaborate on the M2 vs MK MU post-patch. I don't know if the up air combos still work on him (AFAIK he goes into tumble) so is there something else that makes the MU one of his worst?

 

[Jalil]

Besides the obvious higher weight, HW has better mobility overall in the air (and ground I think?) And a better D throw for combos and low % f smash confirms.

Hard to think of what else Greninja has worse or better, both characters are hard to compare side by side their tools. They just play vastly different.

I think the two characters are very close together in the high tier though. Which one being better almost feels like a toss up. Maybe M2 by a hair because as shown today, M2's range is really hard to rival. ZSS could only get in with Zair. Mario could not get in almost at all and had to overwhelm M2 with his superior frame data.

I think an interesting topic would be: who gives M2 the greatest struggle now? Sheik has been proven to be extemeely doable for M2, can hold his own against ZSS, even Fox who is often perceived as one of M2's worst. Mario, another bad one I thought showed just how badly he can be kept out.

I want to say DK is M2's worst matchup atm, but I could be wrong. Ding dong is already a stupid, stupid tool that should be nerfed a bit (as shown at pound, it makes DK kill range play very stale and predictable. Reduce his landing lag and make fair and dair come out quicker.) On M2 though, I could see it killing super early while M2 has to contest DK's range while also putting up with his heavy weight. Unless M2 camps with Shadow Ball. Even then, DKWill has shown how effective DK is against M2)

Or could it be Rosalina that secretly gives M2 a hard time? It was the only matchup Aba didn't use M2 for, but I think this is more due to MK straight wrecking Rosa than M2 losing to her.

Greninja's dthrow doesn't combo into fsmash at low percents and can be di'd away to avoid fair at high percents.

 

[Yonder]

Mewtwo's toughest top tier matchups IMO are . is also tough too

Falcon, yes, that's another one of note. His blitzing ground speed and long limps make life hard for a M2 trying to camp him at all. Falcon's uair can effectively juggle M2 and his knee may be easier to land especially from a dthrow or whatever Falcon's use to set it up.

I don't feel ZSS is terrible for M2 after Mars lost to him (but he did take the only game off him so it is by no means easy) . Fox idk, seems doable but I wonder how Aba would fare against Larry's Fox. His Fox is better than Void's right?

I have no idea on MK, but Zer0s Diddy would have really put the theory that Diddy is a tough matchup for M2 to the test.

Greninja's dthrow doesn't combo into fsmash at low percents and can be di'd away to avoid fair at high percents.

No? I thought D throw to f smash was guaranteed at 0%. I always seem to land it as Greninja. But if not I apologize, I don't main him so the actual mains would know better.

 

[FullMoon]

Mewtwo doesn't run faster than Greninja by the way, Greninja is still a little bit faster. You're mistaking frog for sheikah there.

I don't think Mewtwo outclasses Greninja because the two aren't even that comparable to begin with.

 

[Megamang]

Perhaps he was riding a little on MU inexperience, and now that the other top players have figured out their way to deal with pika, he just needs to adopt counterplay.

Either way, pika feels really hot and cold to play. Sometimes you get in easy, convert it for kills frequently, and just feel unstoppable... but sometimes you feel like you're fighting a literal wall, kills don't come until u-throw does it, and you feel totally limited.

I don't think its the end for ESAM's pikachu, and we'll probably see another breakout performance at some point, even if it is just because people forget about pika while he is an amazing player. But, I think it is healthy for him to be using a secondary, even if it just gives him more perspective on his favorite character.

Or, he busts out Samus (his OG fav character and Melee main, by the way) and starts stomping faces now that she is buffed and Zero is in hiding learning Bayonetta behind everyone's back.


Also, Cloud seems more beatable every day to me. Bayonetta, I don't see as much as Cloud TBH, and maybe its just me but I don't mind the defensive stance you need to beat her.

---

Also, someone said M2 doesn't like Bayonetta, and I see some reasoning for this (she can actually edgeguard him, Witch Time guarantees a really really early kill, she can do all kinds of extra stuff on him because he is huge, uair confirms demolish him early)... but I think he has some advantages that cannot be understated in the matchup either.

He has a really great, killing projectile. This can be a reactive punish if the bayonetta has accrued some lag, and tries to divekick to safety. It gives him something to use in neutral to force her towards him, and allows him to adopt a defensive style against her that he likes. He has quick, powerful hitboxes that can semi-zone her (fair), but aren't the slow juggernaut's that can easily be Witch Timed. His slowest aerial (by FAF) is nair, and this can outright beat Witch Time if done correctly. He gets confirms on people easily, which kill Bayonetta really really early. He has 2 amazing kill throws, which can make Bayonetta regret doing anything. SHAD -> Aerial is great for punishing divekicks, if you time it perfectly, since you don't simply bounce to safety. While he can be edgeguarded, he also can bypass playing the ledge game at all in certain situations. Finally, being lightweight isn't so much a concern when she is killing you from a stray hit at random % anyways, you just want to not get hit... and m2 has the best airdodge (behind hers) and some powerful disjoints (that we didn't even see abadango using to their fullest, except uair and utilt)... I just don't think its bad at all.

And if he also does decent against cloud (better camping, good edgeguarding, good shield game, throws you offstage in both directions... plays at the ledge well) then M2 was set up for success not by the slight patches, but by a meta shifting far into his favor.

Also... anyone hate Pit as m2? Elec is great at plowing thru safe fairs, the disjoint is annoyingly better than ours, and arrows are frustrating when you try and charge or set yourself up to recover and can ruin M2's extremely important double jump. Also, only fresh shadow ball can win a ping pong battle vs reflector.

Speaking of which, we didn't see much ping ponging from Aba as I'd like, since I believe that is one of m2's best assets. Of course, this was also because his opponents didn't reflect much, or simply didn't have reflectors... which is better to lob shadowballs at.

As people learn the math more, M2 might be making everyone approach. He certainly hurts when he spaces you.

 

[HFlash]

I've been guilty of underrating Mario.

In a previous iteration of this thread someone called Mario this game's Brawl Marth (I can't remember who it was); in theory he isn't amazing, but then you look at his results and shut up about it.

Was he really considered bad or "over rated" back in the day? He had so much going for him, including grab release at edge to guaranteed dair spike on MK.

I said "maximum extent" as in he seems like he can't do anything consistently or particularly noteworthy with the character anymore. If ESAM wants to have better results, either he steps up his game with Pikachu really hard, or he needs to change his character.

Let's remember people that even pro players have lives outside of smash. The guy is studying in school, and obviously playing a character that requires much more precision compared to the rest of the cast. Playing under a high stress environment can concur the audience effect.

Spoiler: Audience effect

Compared to their performance when alone, when in the presence of others, they tend to perform better on simple or well-rehearsed tasks and worse on complex or new ones

I think the combination of taking less focus on smash, not practicing as much (hence dropped techs) and the fact that pika is hard to play can explain Esam's performance. To be quite frank, we don't know the potential of Pika until either someone goes bonkers and shows us (which Esam has already, just not very recently) or he gets some more representation. It's almost literally the same situation with Ryu.

 

[C0rvus]

Mewtwo versus Meta Knight is generally considered even by most MK players at least. Don't see why it would be that bad for Mewtwo. You can SDI out of up air combos super easily, and I think that makes Mewtwo's reward more powerful. I've played it a fair bit, but my MK is still pretty bad, so grains of salt.

Heavies definitely do well against Mewtwo in practice, though if we're talking top level, the closest thing I can think of is that DKwill/Mew^2 set, but I think it was 1.1.4? Seemed decent enough for Mewtwo then. Ding Dong is hard to deal with, but I don't know the effective % range for him. Zard might be an actual problem for him, but the sample size is so minuscule atm, I can't really prove it. But Zard is actually kind of beastly now, and with rage, forget it. He's pretty tanky, and hard to edgeguard, so you really have to be on point or you'll get rage up thrown or back aired or Flare Blitzed and die at 70%.

 

[Y2Kay]

Bayo doesn't actually body mewtwo or anything like that. The room for error montra that Mewtwo mains live by already get's quadrupled thanks to fricking witch time.

Aba and Mew^2 have been beating strong bayos recently

 

[Pancracio17]

So before pound everyone was excited to se where it would go since its the first major since the new patch, people (like void) wanted to see the results and finally make a tier list or see what direction the meta will go.

Well, we learned the meta is a cluster**** (in a good way) and that mewtwo is top tier.