Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Peppermint1201]

Mr. II's Robin just eliminated Nairo from Pound.

 

[ARGHETH]

Mr. II's Robin just eliminated Nairo from Pound.

I'm just wondering how a Robin main beat Nairo, of all people. Raziek and Dath have Robin vs pre-patch ZSS as one of our worst MUs, and the patch shouldn't have changed the MU that much.

 

[wedl!!]

smh, looks like another no-name is getting carried by robin

 

[Jucchan]

Before this, Mr.II's best placing was 33rd at Umebura Tokaigi. Could we be getting another RIN situation where a player with unimpressive results in Japan suddenly makes Top 32 in the US?

 

[ARGHETH]

smh, looks like another no-name is getting carried by robin

Hey, he got 65th at EVO 2015, he isn't a no-name!

 

[PK Gaming]

Seeing all of these upsets at Pound is deeply, deeply satisfying.

Vindicating as well, considering there were a ton of people who didn't expect the metagame to shake up in a significant manner after the patch. The nerfs are real, and it's an entirely new ball game.

#TheScalesHaveBeenTipped

 

[Peppermint1201]

Raptor has sneakily made it far into Pound; according to his Twitter he will play ESAM or Marss next -- the winner will get Top 16.

 

[Deleted member]

UPDATED: In case you need something else to watch during/after Pound, Karisuma 6 will be streamed on SHI-Gaming. It starts at 11:00 a.m. Japan time, so the stream should be up any time now.

Spoiler: Good People

9B, ikep
Isotaku
Ruri
SH
Kei
DoubleA
Earth
Shimitake
Sigma
Nojinko
Kenkenpa
Taiheita
Kie
HIKARU
DIO
Fuwa

Has Earth actually dropped Pit or does he still use him along with Corrin?

 

[Djent]

Feelicks, his Twitter profile still mentions both (along with his rarely-seen Fox). However, his most recent appearances have seen him going almost entirely Corrin.

 

[Ninety]

Mr. II's Robin just eliminated Nairo from Pound.

smh, looks like another no-name is getting carried by robin

Feelicks, his Twitter profile still mentions both (along with his rarely-seen Fox). However, his most recent appearances have seen him going almost entirely Corrin.

20FE is upon us boys

 

[Charoite]

It seems that there was tournament, named Tespa West where TLTC beat Tearbear, and he is in top 6 i need to ask why is this character still in bottom tier, apart from (who is still silly that she is in bottom tier)she is the only one with good results against goods players, and has been consistent, MU inexperience is a could be a factor but still these results are too good to belong to a "trash character".

 

[Blobface]

Lavani Shaya
Earlier you posted some stuff regarding hitstun. Considering that 100 KB causes 40 frames of stun across all three types of escape, would it be accurate to say that "Jump Hitstun" can be calculated by Knockback * 0.4?

 

[Lavani]

Lavani Shaya
Earlier you posted some stuff regarding hitstun. Considering that 100 KB causes 40 frames of stun across all three types of escape, would it be accurate to say that "Jump Hitstun" can be calculated by Knockback * 0.4?

Raw hitstun is knockback * 0.4, which would also be when you're able to jump, yes.

 

[Deleted member]

Can we take a second and appreciate how far has come?

Nearly a year ago, he was released in April and ended up being widely considered unviable (note I said widely, I'm well aware people believed in Mewtwo's abilities before he received his notable buffs) for quite a while until 1.1.3 rolled around. Now we're sitting here and now he's widely seen as mid-tier or a high-tier contender while he's getting his first top 16 placement at a national, on a solo run no less! Patches really do help a lot for characters. I can't wait to see what else the character's going to do this year, it's honestly exciting.

 

[sedrf]

Sol released a video about bayo

 

[Y2Kay]

dang, people ridin' Saj for getting top 16? that sucks

 

[wedl!!]

yeah it's almost like peach is ****ing terrible and he's doing good because he's playing an actual character

that video is godlike, too bad it will fall onto deaf ears

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm just wondering how a Robin main beat Nairo, of all people. Raziek and Dath have Robin vs pre-patch ZSS as one of our worst MUs, and the patch shouldn't have changed the MU that much.

Not to underplay the significance of this but upsets do happen and sometimes people just have bad days or go into panic mode when they come across a new playstyle. It could still be a bad match up overall. Even the best players in the world choke from time to time.

 

[Deleted member]

Sol released a video about bayo

Sol has a dope hairdo.

I agree with everything he said in the video. Dislike Bayonetta? I could give less of a ****. Start looking down on players because they dropped their previous main for Bayonetta or ended up picking Bayo simply because they like her? You're kinda terrible. The amount of toxicity around this character and her players is just exhausting. I've been trying to find the word in regards to this entire fiasco, and that's really it. People need to learn that Smash tournament players most of the time have an important goal: winning. Doing well consistently. Somebody like wasn't going to do that for Saj, neither was it for Tweek with . Why put so much effort into clearly worse characters when you can open yourself up more and have a better chance at taking majors?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

'Specially when there's so much not so worse characters to choose from, you know? We've got, what was it, 12-13 distinct characters in our top 16 tomorrow? That's kinda awesome?

 

[Browny]

dang, people ridin' Saj for getting top 16? that sucks

That's not usually what 'riding' is used to describe lol.

eh nvm, depends what sort of other gaming communities you are in and how the term is used.

 

[Charoite]

It's really bad how much hate a player can get only for playing a character,not only because it can really affect real people but because the majority of this behavior is encouraging by top players who dont want to have a different type of top tier from usual that have smash bros, now imagine how much they would crying if were top tier.

Off topic aside, is truth that Mr.II was using bidou tech?, because this can be potentially important for the metagame if true.

 

[sedrf]

people ******* about luigi during his 15 minutes of fame.
Heell people ***** about lucario if he isn't top tier.
If it's top and has anything some considers annoying or 'unfair' will get ****.
Some more than others.

 

[ARGHETH]

Off topic aside, is truth that Mr.II was using bidou tech?, because this can be potentially important for the metagame if true.

Apparently not. Leaving aside if Robin even benefits from it, he inputted his tag on-stream vs a ROB and it was default.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Well good news is, Link has been seeing pretty decent results lately - much bether than he used to. I wouldn't say he's terrible though. He's got enough tools to properly put him in mid-tier. As long as he keeps seeing good results in the future at least.

Tink actaully surprised me. I knew he was good but his results exceeds my expectations.

Link's got some pretty solid tools. His combo-prone physics, his meh recovery, and his general weakness should his opponent get closer than the tip of his sword are significant enough to keep him from high tier, but he's got some good tools in midrange and hits like a truck. Zelda's still pretty iffy in neutral even though she's improved, and is still somewhere in low tier because of it.

 

[C0rvus]

Wow, Robin beat Nairo. Irony aside, that's super out of nowhere. I always heard that Japan thought little of Robin and then nothing. Never heard of the dude. He even came in full cosplay and played male Robin. What an absolute legend.

As for the Bayo/Saj thing, there's definitely a fine line between character hate and player hate. It's easy to forget that these are people behind the controllers, and we know so little about them. A lot of it is Twitch chat, but still. Good video from Sol. It was real talk, you can tell because he said he hates Bayonetta lol.

 

[Luco]

It's not even abandoning a character for a better one that gives you a shot at taking tournaments better, although I think that's a perfectly respectable choice as well. The key here is that Saj is playing the character he loves, and the mere thought that someone would get hated on for that is pretty horrific.

Well I won't comment further because it's not my place to talk about it as if I know anything, but there you have it. People should play characters they want to without judgement. Yay choice. Etc.

 

[iVoltage]

Changing the subject, greninja though? I picked him up recently and he feels leagues better. The main thing in my eyes was the landing lag buff giving him two more spacing tools in neutral, his bair and fair.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's better, but still struggles with top characters. Sheik and Sonic are very common bad MUs for him. Knowing that iStudy lost to K9 and Seagull while Abadango ploughed through them with Mewtwo is really disheartening (though Abadango may have used MK against them, need confirmation - if so, it's much less of a kick in the teeth).

 

[warionumbah2]

He used M2 to beat them both. K9 vs Aba was on stream and Seagull confirmed that he went M2 on twitter.

 

[juddy96]

Karisuma 6

1) 9B
2) Taiheita
3) Atelier
4) SH
5) HIKARU
5) Fuwa
7) ikep
7) Kie

http://challonge.com/Karisuma6T

 

[Luco]

Dang, Taiheta took Atelier down to losers, then sent him out of the tournament in Loser's Finals. He also took a set off 9B but didn't manage to convert it to a win in GFs. That's hype.

Sorry, I realise we like to be a little more substantial with this stuff. But I think this might shed a little light on Lucas vs Rosa and why it's better than Ness vs Rosa. Well, it is only one tournament result, after all.

 

[Rizen]

Link's got some pretty solid tools. His combo-prone physics, his meh recovery, and his general weakness should his opponent get closer than the tip of his sword are significant enough to keep him from high tier, but he's got some good tools in midrange and hits like a truck. Zelda's still pretty iffy in neutral even though she's improved, and is still somewhere in low tier because of it.

Speaking of , @Catana (Cat) got 7th of 124 going all Link at Avalon.
http://smashboards.com/threads/avalon-u-iii-april-2nd-2016-the-netherlands-europe.434356/

 

[IsmaR]

Meanwhile in Europe, Hypespotting Finals

Gardner/Afro Smash vs IxisNaugus in winner's finals. Currently on Game 5.

Edit: 3-2 in Ixis' favor. Really untimely fastfall led to an early SD.

 

[Luco]

Meanwhile in Europe, Hypespotting Finals

Gardner/Afro Smash vs IxisNaugus in winner's finals. Currently on Game 5.

Edit: 3-2 in Ixis' favor. Really untimely fastfall led to an early SD.

Still, awesome job to @Afro Smash for that impressive result. Still salty I never got to play you when I was over there. Ixis still doing work too.

It's like we get really hype over the weekend where we get billions of results and then spend our weekdays poring over them and trying to figure out how the stars could possibly have aligned that way / what they mean and construct something new from them. Lawl.

So the issue I'm having and I'm sure many people have time and time again is looking at too many lower tiered characters in a vacuum and saying "but these aren't the results of a low tier!" - I'm beginning to wonder whether it would be useful trying to compile results and MU-specific data for these characters and formulating a bottom 10/15 that way. It would be work, but I know people always like trying to define that part of the tier list so I dunno. @Das Koopa 's results-based lists have already given a lot of insight as to who's making top 16 and who isn't, so those can be starting points maybe.

 

[Yikarur]

Germany ran over Netherlands
http://smashboards.com/threads/avalon-u-iii-april-2nd-2016-the-netherlands-europe.434356/

1: Sodrek (GER)
2: S1 (NL)
3: Eddy (GER)
4: LoNg0uw (GER)
5: Yikarur (GER)
5: AscWolf (GER)
7: Cat (NL)
7: Meru (NL)
9: Thomau5 (NL)
9: Yoh (GER)
9: Gregs (GER)
9: Prodigy (GER)
13: NETG Peeko (NL)
13: Narayan (GER)
13: Grove (NL)

 

[T4ylor]

Luco Can't forget that Taiheita also beat Atelier at Sumabato8.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I see a...Dedede? What?

Yikarur (or @~ Gheb ~ )

Who is Grove?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Raziek]

Not to underplay the significance of this but upsets do happen and sometimes people just have bad days or go into panic mode when they come across a new playstyle. It could still be a bad match up overall. Even the best players in the world choke from time to time.

The matchup is definitely still garbage, but without replays of the match we don't really have anything to look at and go 'Oh, Nairo literally wasn't doing the "You get option-selected by Flip Kick on recovery" or Y punish or Z option' to explain how he did it.

 

[bc1910]

Germany ran over Netherlands
http://smashboards.com/threads/avalon-u-iii-april-2nd-2016-the-netherlands-europe.434356/

1: Sodrek (GER)
2: S1 (NL)
3: Eddy (GER)
4: LoNg0uw (GER)
5: Yikarur (GER)
5: AscWolf (GER)
7: Cat (NL)
7: Meru (NL)
9: Thomau5 (NL)
9: Yoh (GER)
9: Gregs (GER)
9: Prodigy (GER)
13: NETG Peeko (NL)
13: Narayan (GER)
13: Grove (NL)

This looks great. More results for Greninja, ROB and Yoshi with a bit of Falcon and Brawler. Congratulations to Eddy, S1 and yourself in particular.

And wow, Eddy beat Sodrek in their first set! He was ultimately eliminated by him, but still great to see. Greninja's record against Ness not looking great lately though...